Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“The Member has just highlighted one of the problems that I would have in going against the advice of officials, because they are concerned about setting precedents. The Member has just demonstrated that this will not be confined to one area. If I take some action, others may use that as a precedent to take further action in later times.”
“The official recommendation is that we do not do a scheme; let us be clear about that. If we were to do a scheme, it would be a hardship scheme, which would be based on ministerial direction. Ministerial directions are used exceptionally, but, nonetheless, they are used. I used ministerial direction in a previous Department and was criticised by the media for doing it. In that instance, it was to give capital money to the Northern Ireland Hospice and to Mencap for two absolutely brilliant schemes. I was criticised for diverging from the advice of officials. If I were to do a scheme in this instance, it would be something that diverged from officials' advice and something on which I would have to give ministerial direction to do, on the basis of hardship. I have not taken that decision at this point.”
“The funding that was identified has been issued. The Department has been carrying out work on fencing that was damaged during the flood since November.”
“DAERA has since provided half a million pounds of funding to the Loughs Agency to carry out remedial riparian fencing works in the worst affected areas. That repair work commenced in November 2019 and is ongoing. Under its statutory conservation and protection remit, the Loughs Agency continues to undertake work in the affected areas.”
“I am aware of the difficulties experienced by the farmers affected by flooding in 2017. In the immediate aftermath of the flood, workshops were held in affected areas to provide advice and practical support covering farm management issues and land restoration. Technical bulletins were also issued, and, more recently, officials have met local residents to explore well-being and business development matters. <BR /> <BR />In terms of financial assitance, in 2017, the Department took steps to make enhanced advance CAP payments at a rate of 70% to help to alleviate cash flow issues experienced by farmers. In addition, the Department approved force majeure declarations on affected farmland that had been submitted for basic payment scheme support at the time, thus ensuring that there was no reduction in those payments due to flood damage.”
“I am meeting the farmers' union tomorrow. If they have issues of concern, I will be happy to listen. All the evidence that I have found shows that we will be able to carry out everything that was in the CAP pillar 1, with one exception, which is a very good exception: because of EU rules, in October 2019, we gave farmers 70% of the funding; in October 2020, because we are out of the European Union, we will give 100% to farmers. I do not think that the farmers' union will object to that.”
“However, are you telling me that, for example, the slurry ban has been good for Northern Ireland? It has not. Farmers have not been able to get out and do that activity for the past month when the weather lent itself to doing it. Are you telling me that it is a good thing that farmers have to request permission to clean out a sheugh and a departmental official is supposed to give that to them? Are you telling me that it is a good thing that a farmer is not allowed to plough over the winter because of soil erosion, which does not exist in this damp climate? Those are not good regulations, and I would happily diverge from what Brussels has instructed us to do. Many of the 2,800 regulations that have been imposed on us since 1974 are not fit for purpose in Northern Ireland.”
“I take the Member's remarks as being condescending towards the farming community, because the feedback that I got from the farming community was that they extensively backed leaving the European Union. If anybody wants an evidence base for that, I should say that the farmers' union held a meeting at Balmoral to which 600 farmers turned up and there was a 90% vote in favour of leaving the European Union. Farmers know more about what will affect them and their future than the Member who asked the question, representing South Belfast and having only returned from London to do so. <BR /> <BR />I would say that 80% to 90% of the regulation in Europe is currently also the case in Australia and large parts of North America and other key areas. Regulatory alignment already exists in many areas.”
“I have already raised the issue with the Prime Minister, particularly the fact that Northern Ireland, as a producer of around 10% of food in the UK, cannot go down the route of a Barnett formula being applied to this. That would be 2·8%, which would be a huge, detrimental loss to the farming community here. I further raised that with Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and I raised it this morning with Minister Duncan. Thus far, I have got good feedback from all three, and I will continue to press that issue.”
“The Bill has now completed its stages in Parliament and became law on 31 January. On that basis, I expect the 2020 scheme year to operate in a broadly similar way to 2019. In relation to future years, the Conservative Party manifesto stated that funding for farm support would be maintained at existing levels until the end of this Parliament. While the schemes themselves may change across the UK, I anticipate that the funding levels will be maintained up until 2024. My Department will continue to work on developing policy in the longer term, and I will be looking at what future payments can do to support sustainable farming and our landscape.”
“I welcome the Member's interest in the subject. I am sure that all the farmers in North Belfast will be delighted with her putting the question down. <BR /> <BR />I will be making an announcement shortly on the arrangements and funding for direct payments in the 2020 scheme year. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, at the end of December 2019, confirmed that the UK Government will provide the same financial support to CAP pillar 1 for 2020 as for the 2019 scheme year. Last week, the Northern Ireland Assembly agreed a legislative consent motion on the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Bill. This allowed the provisions of the UK Bill to extend and apply to Northern Ireland and to provide continuity for direct payments for the 2020 scheme year.”
“<BR /> <BR />Given the urgency resulting from the absence of legal powers needed to continue making direct payments in the 2020 scheme, it is appropriate for Northern Ireland to take provisions from the UK Bill. Should the motion pass, I will write to the UK Minister for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to convey the Assembly's consent to the UK Government legislating on our behalf with immediate effect.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is not possible for us to make equivalent provision on this issue through an Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly before exit day, so the Bill does not represent a policy change. It brings across legislation to allow us to continue to make those direct payments in 2020. <BR /> <BR />We are not following the conventional pathway for seeking consent because of the deadline that has been set. We do not want to do this in the future, and, where at all possible, we will not step outside the normal processes. <BR /> <BR />Farmers need reassurance, and we will be able to give them that for the 2020 year. Over the course of this year, we will work very hard to give them assurance for a long time and, if at all possible, to get something in place for a significant period.”
“People have talked about beyond that, and I raised this issue with the Prime Minister when he visited, and I raised it last week in a telephone conversation with Theresa Villiers. Northern Ireland produces over 10% of the food in the United Kingdom. If we get the payment on the basis of Barnett, which is 2·8%, that would be punishing Northern Ireland farmers and, indeed, the Northern Ireland community. So, agriculture needs to be viewed outside the Barnett formula. <BR /> <BR />I have not been rebutted in any way by the Prime Minister or, indeed, the Secretary of State at DEFRA. Therefore, I will retain the argument that this needs to be based on the produce that is coming out of Northern Ireland, and that agriculture needs to be looked at in a UK-wide context.”
“We will endeavour to move, and to move quickly, on that course of work. I certainly would like to see more of Northern Ireland forested. We are behind other regions, but I should point out our hedgerows are well ahead of other regions, and we have significant benefits from that. Nonetheless, I believe in greater afforestation, and we will seek to encourage that both in the public sector and for people working on the land. We will continue to look at that course of work. <BR /> <BR />In Bew, we do not see any material change to Northern Ireland. We believe that we will be in the same situation on the back of that. <BR /> <BR />The Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Bill focuses on maintaining the status quo and providing continuity of direct payments for the 2020 scheme.”
“I thank the Member for raising that issue. Certainly, we will look at carbon sequestration. One thing that can assist us in achieving that is the planting of more trees, and we will look at that.”
“Yes, in just a moment. <BR /> <BR />The fact that you could go into your convenience store on the way home tonight and buy two litres of milk more cheaply than you could buy the equivalent amount of water is a demonstration that you get very good-quality food at a very low cost. This extends not just to meat and dairy products but to fruit and vegetables and all of that. That policy has existed for many years: that we keep food at a low cost for families, and give some assistance to farmers to ensure that they can remain on the land and produce that food.”
“However, I look on it less as support for the farmer and more as support for everybody in the United Kingdom, because everybody benefits from good-quality food that is being produced at very competitive rates.”
“It would be much more appropriate to look at how best we develop and support sustainable farming in conjunction with the sustainable environment. <BR /> <BR />That does not mean the pillaging of hill farmers. I believe that hill farmers have a vital contribution to make. They produce much good food, and they should be rewarded for doing that. A simple flat rate that does not take farming activities into account will not be an appropriate policy. We have to ensure that we move forward with equity and make every endeavour to support the farming community as widely as we can to ensure that everyone can get a slice of the cake. <BR /> <BR />Payment to farmers predates the European Union and the European Economic Community. Farmers in the United Kingdom received support to do this for many years prior to us joining the EEC.”
“A number of Members welcomed my becoming Minister. I trust that that will still be the case in a year's time and at the end of this mandate in two years' time. I look forward to working with each and every one of you. I will attempt not to rise to the bait on every occasion, and I will seek to be conciliatory on the odd occasion as well. <BR /> <BR />The Agriculture Bill was mentioned. It contains a Northern Ireland schedule with "keeping apace" powers. So, any policy change in Northern Ireland will require the Assembly to take forward a new Bill. I am not sure that the flat-rate payment is the most appropriate payment. Maghaberry Prison, for example, receives a payment in spite of not having any agricultural activity, but it does own land.”
“If farmers in France, Ireland and countries like that are to continue to receive the payments at the level that they currently receive, the only option that Europe has is that the countries themselves put more money in. I suspect that that will be a very difficult conversation.”
“<BR /> <BR />The European Union has come up quite regularly in the context of certainty. The one certainty I have is that, had we remained in the European Union, we would have been looking at a diminished payment going forward, because there was an agreement in the European Union that this CAP payment, which saw the more advanced regions and countries in Europe receive a larger share of the pot, would be equalised with the accession nations, which, as part of the negotiation the last time round, demanded equality and will get equality. As a consequence, farmers in Ireland will not receive as much money next year as they currently receive, and that would have been the case for Northern Ireland as well. People need to realise and recognise that.”
“I appreciate all the comments this evening and thank Members for taking the time to make their input. <BR /> <BR />I will deal with a few of the issues at the outset. I have spoken about mental health issues for rural dwellers on several occasions now with Minister Swann, and, indeed, on our instruction, officials have already been in discussion on those matters, because we see it as an important issue. I do not think the absence of government in the last three years has helped anybody's mental health, rural or otherwise, and I welcome that we are now here debating and working on these issues. I do not see an awful lot of merit in complaining that we are having to do this process so quickly whenever the Assembly was re-established only in recent weeks. I do not think that that benefits anyone.”
“It is very positive news, and I now need the legislative authority to be able to use this funding. <BR /> <BR />To sum up, my view is that the Bill's provisions should extend and apply to Northern Ireland to ensure that the direct payments can continue to be made to farmers in Northern Ireland for the 2020 scheme year. I commend the motion to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />I should also inform the House that DEFRA intends to lay the two statutory instruments in Westminster on 31 January via the made affirmative procedure under the Bill so that they come into effect immediately after 31 January to address the failures and deficiencies arising from the EU law. <BR /> <BR />I want to say something about the funding of direct payments. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced at the end of December 2019 that the UK Government confirmed they will provide the same financial support to CAP pillar 1 for 2020 as for the 2019 scheme year. That provides Northern Ireland with some £293 million for the 2020 scheme year. That funding stream is ring-fenced in the block grant. It cannot be spent on anything else.”
“My officials briefed the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee last Tuesday, and I am grateful to the Committee for facilitating this briefing at short notice. <BR /> <BR />It is crucial that there is no gap between the ending of the EU legislative basis for direct support to farmers in Northern Ireland this Friday and its replacement with domestic legislation. The Assembly will be fully aware of the importance of this support to the farming industry. The Scottish and the Welsh Governments are also moving with speed through the necessary processes to ensure that legislative consent for the other two devolved institutions is also in place. Both devolved institutions have now given their consent — the Scottish Parliament on 16 January and the Welsh Assembly on 22 January.”
“It is scheduled to complete its remaining Commons stages tomorrow, 28 January, and the Lords stages on 29 January so that it will become law by 31 January, our withdrawal date. <BR /> <BR />With the Bill likely to be certified as a money Bill, the last stage at which amendments can be considered as it completes its Commons stages is 28 January. Therefore, legislative consent from the Northern Ireland Assembly needs to be provided no later than today. Without consent, the Bill may no longer extend to Northern Ireland, leaving us with no legislative power to provide for direct payments in the 2020 scheme year after 31 January. This timetable was confirmed to my officials only last Tuesday morning. I have taken all necessary steps to ensure that the Assembly is given the opportunity to consider it as quickly as possible.”
“You should note clause 3(4), which is for DAERA to make regulations to move basic payment entitlement values in Northern Ireland towards a uniform unit value, but this is a discretionary power and subject to the affirmative resolution of the House. <BR /> <BR />Agriculture is a devolved matter, but the provisions of the Bill extend to the whole of the UK. Therefore, it contains provisions that fall within the legislative competence of the Assembly. For that reason, DEFRA is seeking legislative consent from the Assembly in order to legislate on behalf of Northern Ireland. As I said a few minutes ago, I received the formal request from Minister Eustice in DEFRA last Monday night, so this is happening at pace. The Bill was introduced to Parliament on 9 January.”
“It provides the underpinning of direct support for the 2020 scheme year only. It will also create delegated powers to make subordinate regulations to ensure this retained legislation operates effectively in a domestic context. The delegated powers in the Bill will enable failures or deficiencies in retained EU law to be remedied and for retained law to keep pace with any change introduced into corresponding EU law during the 2020 scheme year if deemed necessary. <BR /> <BR />It is envisaged that the UK Agriculture Bill, which was introduced in Parliament last week, will provide the necessary powers from 2021 onwards, including the ability to keep existing schemes in operation until we have a replacement. I will bring forward a further legislative consent motion on the Agriculture Bill in due course.”
“Article 137 of the withdrawal agreement disapplies the EU direct payment regulation, EU regulation 1307/2013, which provides the legal basis for CAP pillar 1 support to UK farmers, so it ceases to apply to the UK after the 2019 scheme year. The reason for that is that the 2020 scheme's payment would be made out of the EU 2020-21 financial year budget. That falls into the new EU multi-annual financial framework, to which the UK is not contributing. Therefore, if nothing was done to replace the EU regulation, there would be no legal basis for direct payment to UK farmers. The Direct Payments (Legislative Continuity) Bill corrects that deficiency. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is a UK Government Bill. It is a technical Bill of narrow scope that incorporates EU direct payments regulations into United Kingdom law.”
“First, I declare an interest as recorded in the Register of Members' Interests. That applies at this time until I totally divest myself of interest in this matter. <BR /> <BR />Normally, I would have brought this motion within the established time frame, and I apologise to the House that that was not possible. We are under very tight time constraints if I wish to have the legislative authority to enable some £293 million to be paid in direct payments to farmers in the 2020 scheme this year. <BR /> <BR />The UK Minister for agriculture, environment and rural affairs wrote to me last Monday and asked that the Assembly provide legislative consent to Her Majesty's Government, legislating on our behalf on the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Bill. I will provide the House with some background.”
“I do not have any sympathy with Mr Allister on the issue. What we are seeing is pure grandstanding and seeking of attention. What we have in front of us is legislation that is going through Westminster. We are to give an opinion on it, and if we do not give an opinion this week, we will not have the opportunity to give an opinion. Maybe Mr Allister does not want to give an opinion on where he stands on the European Union. Our party is very happy to do so and is very clear on its position. It is useful that the Assembly will have the opportunity to send a message to Westminster on where it stands on this particular issue. It would be absolute foolishness not to proceed with the motion today. We should deal with it and allow Westminster to hear what we have to say.”
“I confirm that I am willing to take up the office of Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, and I affirm the terms of the Pledge of Office as set out in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”
“Further to that, Mr Speaker. The Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone did request that that advice was shared, and you said that would be unusual or abnormal. That, of course, was tested in another place with regards to the advice relating to Brexit from the Attorney General to the Prime Minister, and of course it was the case that the Parliament actually did receive the advice. I would formally request that you do provide us with that advice and that we have an opportunity to scrutinise that advice and adjourn for a period of time to allow that to happen.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given that the matter and the intention to do this was brought to your attention this morning and the time that was given to your legal advisers to research matters, did they bring to your attention that something dealing with not quite an identical but a very similar circumstance had already been tested in the highest court of the land? Did they advise you of that in allowing you to come to the decision that you have come to? It strikes me that if we are acting in defiance of what the law lords decided back in 2002, you are taking the Assembly into a very dangerous place. If that advice was not given to you, I think you would be better at this point to adjourn and seek further advice, as opposed to taking us down a path that could lead us into conflict with the courts.”
“I welcome the fact that we will have an independent means of getting to the truth. Given the maelstrom of information and misinformation that has been in the public arena, I would like to get to that truth as quickly as possible. Therefore, I would have preferred a different kind of inquiry, but nonetheless. Was there a discussion with the panel chair about how long it will take to conduct this inquiry? Will there be an early findings paper produced based on the initial findings? If so, how quickly can that be received, because I think that the public deserve answers quickly?”
“I thank the Minister for his reply and for his hard work over the last eight months. Was this scheme only for Orange halls to apply to? I notice some of the media are putting it out there as some sort of sectarian scheme. Was it available to all of the community? Maybe the Minister could tell us some of the organisations that benefited from this scheme.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I omitted to mention when I was speaking the tenacious work that Margaret, Marty and the SAVIA team did to bring this forward. On the subject that he is talking about, does the Member agree with me that we have got some honesty but that we could also do with justice? The PPS and the police should be pursuing the sadists that he is talking about.”
“For far too long, people turned a blind eye, covered it up and created the circumstances where child abusers could go from one place to another to carry out their abuse. That is just wrong. We as a society can do so much better. I appeal to the Assembly to give victims all the support possible to get resolution and to draw a line under this very important issue.”
“Lord Justice Hart made a series of recommendations. Some of them are about finance. We will have to get our heads together, look at all those issues and seek to respond as quickly as possible. What I am absolutely clear about is that Ireland, North and South, has a mark of shame on it as a result of abuse of children by a range of people from various organisations. I want a line drawn under this, where we give victims recognition and take every step possible to ensure that new victims do not appear. <BR /> <BR />Our social care system has improved dramatically, but I do not believe for one instant that we have taken every circumstance out where a child can be abused. Let us have zero tolerance of child abuse in this society.”
“Where is the fairness in the victims not having their voice heard — not having a response made to them on these important issues?”
“That is the scale of what was happening to children in our society in this western, civilised country, not 100 or 200 years ago but 20, 30 or 40 years ago. It was right that the victims had their voice, and it was right that that voice was heard and acted on. It is immensely regrettable that we do not have a functioning Executive Office so that we can respond to the Hart report. That is absolutely critical. <BR /> <BR />I appeal to everybody in the House. We are in an election — the die is cast, so that is that — but I appeal to everybody in the House to get round the table and get things resolved quickly — I mean not over months but over weeks — and get back to dealing with issues like this. If you are talking about equality, here are people who need equality.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to relate a couple of stories very briefly, because we do not have time to give the stories justice, to tell them in full or to tell them as well as the people themselves. There was a young lad in Rathgael who was not sleeping well at nights and so forth and had a few problems. He was taken out at 6.30 am and made to jump off the pier into cold, icy water. That caused huge flashbacks for that individual, and, ultimately, he had an early death as a result of it. A young girl went into a Sisters of Nazareth home. From the age of eight, she was sexually abused by the priest who was supposed to be looking after confession. She was made to clean the toilets with her bare hands — to carry faeces out of blocked toilets with her bare hands— and to bath in bleach after a priest had abused her.”
“I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this important issue. I welcome the fact that it has been tabled and congratulate the proposer of the motion for doing so. <BR /> <BR />Around five years ago, someone called into my office and related stories of what was going on in Rathgael, both at that time and in the past. Ever since then, I have been working with victims of institutional abuse to get justice, and I welcome the fact that the inquiry was set up. I commend Sir Anthony Hart for the work that he did. I do not know how he sat and listened to the stories day after day, but he did and he did so in a very fair way. More importantly, I want to congratulate the people who told their stories at that inquiry. It took many of them back to the circumstances of what had happened in the first instance and was hugely traumatic.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Sinn Féin was in the same Executive as the DUP when all this was happening, and one of the Ministers who was promoting RHI was the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. Can the Member deny or confirm that that Minister, right up to and even during the spike, in November 2015, was publicly promoting RHI to farmers?”
“I would not be altogether happy with the regulations as they stand if they were for 25 years, so I encourage the Department to work comprehensively with the industry to identify the means by which to go forward with a scheme that can support those who are involved in producing renewable heat and does so in a way that gives them a return on their investment but does not lift £490 million from the taxpayer. Everybody would be a winner at that point.”
“It wants to put right something that it got wrong. It would be a step forward for the public. As I have said before, the public are looking for solutions; some politicians are looking for scalps. That is unfortunate. Even on the evidence that has been provided thus far, it has been demonstrated that it has been wrong to engage in the hate campaign against Arlene Foster and to identify and pinpoint one individual as the person who devised the scheme. She did not devise the scheme, and everybody knows that. <BR /> <BR />We are where we are. I encourage people to support the regulations.”
“<BR /> <BR />Getting back to the point, Mr Deputy Speaker, before you pounce on me, supporting the regulations would be a demonstration that the Assembly means business.”
“This is a very difficult moment for me because I have to agree with absolutely everything that the leader of the Alliance Party has just said. In truth, it is common sense. <BR /> <BR />I deeply regret that we are in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. I committed to the Assembly 10 years ago to try to get devolution off the ground again and I think that, for all its faults and foibles and so forth, it has been a good thing, and last night's shooting demonstrates the importance of us working together. The fact that we are going into an election and probably going into negotiations after that election takes us into an unknown, which, I believe, was avoidable and hugely regrettable.”
“Woodchips and wood pellets are for renewable heat boilers. They are both renewable forms of heat. Nonetheless, I was trying to explain that these are being used for good purpose. So, when Mr Wells discovered that his brother and a number of his cousins have one, they are not doing anything wrong. They are legitimately carrying out a business and have invested many tens of thousands of pounds each in acquiring the boilers. I will add that I know Mr Wells's brother, and the last person he would seek agricultural advice from is Jim because Jim is not really someone who is known to be that interested in broiler chickens; he is more interested in birds of prey.”