Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“Does the Minister accept that it is very difficult to have specific research projects to assist the agriculture industry when research is continually cut? Will she agree to look once again at the research sector and follow what they are doing in Scotland and the Republic of Ireland and identify greater levels of resource to ensure that there is qualitative agriculture research?”
“Rather, it must be something that will make a real difference to the lives of people. That should be the main focus of the Mental Capacity Bill. It should make a transformational difference to people's lives; it should not be something that will have lots of staff and civil servants carrying out particular duties. Let us focus on the people who need the service.”
“That is a key component of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />One issue that caused me concern, which I raised in Committee yesterday, was the implementation costs. Let us make it clear at the outset that the Bill is about people, not processes. It is not about establishing new all-singing, all-dancing offices; it is about people. We must ensure that we serve the people well and that they get the appropriate and proper support and care. We may be able to do that without going overboard in spending public money and still ensure that we deliver the appropriate resource so that people have the correct opportunities. <BR /> <BR />I want to place on record something that I would like the two Ministers to address. Whatever we create, we must ensure that it does not become a Civil Service monstrosity that will cost huge amounts of money to implement.”
“I welcome the Bill and commend the Ministers for ensuring that it was brought before the House today. I do not intend to repeat much of what has already been said because that will not be of much benefit to us. However, we all know that the Bill flows from the Bamford review's recommendations. Much of the implementation of the Bamford review has now been carried out, which is to the good. This is a critical and essential part of the Bamford review, and, therefore, as a Government, we have accepted Bamford's recommendations. It is only right and proper that we fulfil those recommendations in completing this work. The Mental Capacity Bill will create greater opportunities for people who have mental capacity issues. It is critical that we show people respect and courtesy and enable them to have a greater say in their own life.”
“— but I have not named anybody. Let me be clear that informers did not stop there.”
“I have not named anybody. You are all getting very edgy and uppity —”
“If that information flow had been such, there would have been thousands of people, thousands of republicans, killed in a very short space of time. Yes, there may be the odd rotten apple in a barrel, but no systematic collusion took place. I want to nail that very, very clearly. What some individuals did was one thing, but it was not an organisational thing. <BR /> <BR />I should be grateful to some of the Members opposite. It is quite clear to me that the informers helped to end the Troubles, and the informers did not stop at Freddie Scappaticci or Denis Donaldson. There are much higher-placed informers in the republican movement than those individuals. I suspect that some of those high-level informers could be in places of great authority, even as we speak.”
“Yes. Then we had a special adviser appointed to this House who was convicted of being involved in the murder of another young woman, Mary Travers, and her father. We are not going to take lectures about people being misogynist from Ms Ruane when she is supporting an organisation that killed women left, right and centre, namely the IRA, and is unable to stand up and condemn those murders today. <BR /> <BR />I do not believe that collusion was associated exclusively with loyalists. I believe that there were elements who engaged in collusion, but that was not the security forces that we know. Had there been the widespread collusion that people opposite seem to suggest that there was, I believe that there would have been many, many thousands of people killed as a result.”
“There was the murder of Jean McConville, the mother of 10 children who had already lost her husband, which left those 10 children orphans. In the murder of Caroline Moreland, Sinn Féin or IRA women took her away in the car. It was women who took Caroline Moreland away. It was women who interrogated her. It was women who questioned her. I am happy to condemn all these murders; all the ones that were referred to by Ms Ruane and these ones. Joanne Mathers was a young mother out collecting the census. Heidi Hazell was a young woman killed over in Germany. Here we have, over and over and over again, lives taken and Sinn Féin coming here making some sort of suggestion —”
“Ms Ruane started to lecture us about the women who were killed in the Troubles. Women were killed in many of those instances by the organisation called the IRA. If Ms Ruane wants to condemn the murder of those women by the IRA, I will be very happy to give way to her — but her silence is deafening. Her silence is deafening because it is all right for women to be murdered when they are just Protestants or some form of legitimate target of the IRA. That is an absolute disgrace. <BR /> <BR />They were young women like Gillian Johnston, who was shot dead by the IRA while getting out of the car after her boyfriend had left her home. She was not involved in anything other than that she was a young Protestant woman living on the border.”
“Thank you for that. <BR /> <BR />We then have Mr Kelly, who was found guilty of bombing and of explosives charges. We have Mr Lynch, who was caught in possession of firearms and explosives. They are hardly the people to be representing the voice of victims. In truth, none of this was justified. No single murder that took place in Northern Ireland was justified or justifiable, yet we have the people who are associated with the organisation that carried out the vast majority of the murders coming to the House today seeking to implicate others as the baddies. <BR /> <BR />Amongst the targets were soldiers, RUC men, part-time UDR men, ordinary farmers, businesspeople and female census collectors. They were men, women and children in Bloody Friday, Claudy, La Mon, Kingsmill, Enniskillen, Shankill and many more.”
“I am happy to accept what Mr McCartney says —”
“I accept what Mr McCartney is telling us about that element of it being quashed.”
“<BR /> <BR />The second part of my incredulity was because, in the motion, Sinn Féin refers to victims and survivors. I touched on this, but Sinn Féin is hardly the best advocate to represent victims and survivors. I note the names on the list, one of which is Mr Raymond McCartney. Representing victims and survivors? He was convicted of murder — the murder of Jeffrey Agate.”
“They were not extradited; they were harboured and given safe haven to carry out their activities and to live in that country after they conducted their activities. <BR /> <BR />My incredulity at the outset related to Sinn Féin's reference to Stormont House. Here we have Sinn Féin wanting the Stormont House Agreement to be implemented, yet it is the single party that is holding back the implementation of Stormont House. Let me be very clear about this: you will not be getting a partial implementation of the Stormont House Agreement; it will be implemented in full or not at all. Sinn Féin needs to realise very clearly that, if it does a deal, it needs to stand over it. Do not expect others to implement what it wishes to be carried out, while Sinn Féin does not implement the bits that it does not like.”
“That is absolutely true. <BR /> <BR />When you look at circumstances where you had the ethnic cleansing of a community in County Fermanagh, you see that some 111 people were murdered in that county, 110 of them from the Protestant faith. How can that be described as anything other than ethnic cleansing? Who were the people responsible for it? The IRA. <BR /> <BR />Look at villages like Castlederg, where 20 people were murdered. Look at places like south Armagh, where hundreds of people were murdered. Those actions were carried out by none other than the IRA. I have to say that the authorities in the Republic of Ireland showed considerable degrees of complicity with it, as those people were allowed to stay in the Republic of Ireland.”
“I will in a moment. <BR /> <BR />We will not have a situation where Sinn Féin can come to the House and attempt to whitewash its way and rewrite history. That will not be tolerated.”
“Look at the bombings, for example, that took place in Claudy and Enniskillen and the activities that took place in south Armagh. Where did the people go when those murders took place? They took refuge and were harboured in the Republic of Ireland. When information was sought on the murders of Superintendent Buchanan and Chief Superintendent Breen, it was not forthcoming. That inquiry was held back and delayed as a result of information not coming from the Republic of Ireland Government. <BR /> <BR />Even now as we speak, the Kingsmills people are still waiting for information so that they know what happened in the situation involving their loved ones. We will not have —”
“People might think that we are living in some sort of parallel universe. I think that Ms Ruane's speech came from some sort of paramilitary universe where people want to rewrite history, whitewash the past of the IRA and implicate others as the main perpetrators in the Troubles, when, in fact, the IRA was responsible for over 60% of the murders in Northern Ireland. If no collusion took place with that organisation, where did it get the information from for many of the murders that it carried out?”
“I thank the Speaker for reminding us of that. It is just a pity that he did not do so at the outset, before Ms Ruane asked for respect and then gave a grossly disrespectful speech to the House. When I first read the Sinn Féin motion, I was somewhat incredulous at its wording. I will deal with that. When I listened to Ms Ruane, a greater degree of incredulity arose.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Of that £114 million, the Department of Health's allocation is well over 40%, equating to roughly £1 million each week that the health service is being starved of. That is money that should be spent on increasing nurses' wages and increasing midwives' wages. It is money that should be spent on people's hip operations and knee operations. It should be spent on domiciliary care for the elderly, but, as a result of the actions of the parties opposite, we are in a situation where those people are being denied that service and the health service is being starved of money as a consequence of their grossly bad behaviour.”
“<BR /> <BR />A couple of Members have, in interventions, mentioned guidance: the guidance has been drawn up and has been out for consultation. It is being worked on, and I believe that it will be returned to very soon. I trust that we will find a way forward on that, and I suspect that, although it has already been challenged twice, it will be challenged legally again. Nonetheless, it is important that it is brought forward for acceptance, and I trust that that will be the case in the not too distant future.”
“That is hugely regrettable, and it should be noted by people from that background that the parties that are more closely aligned with that tradition's view do not include Sinn Féin, which was crying out for their votes just a few weeks ago, but parties that might be viewed as being from the other side of the fence. <BR /> <BR />I will leave it at that. The amendment is well constructed and is of good purpose. It will ensure that we have the regulation that is absolutely necessary and that that will be carried out by the health service. The RQIA is not in a position to carry out an assessment of what is going on in those clinics because it does not have the legal competence to do so. That is a matter of criminal law.”
“Is she honestly saying that there is a threat to life at that stage? Again, that argument just does not stack up. Let us be very clear: none of the arguments that have been put forward this evening by Ms Ruane on behalf of her party stacks up. Consequently, one must look at the underlying reasons for the position that Sinn Féin is taking, which would indicate that it is not a party that is pro-life or supports the pro-life concept. <BR /> <BR />Interestingly enough, in the election just gone by, their candidate in North Belfast — Mr Kelly — produced a breakdown of the population from the census figures, equating Roman Catholics with nationalists or people who would vote for Sinn Féin, yet they are going so much against the Roman Catholic tradition in their actions today.”
“<BR /> <BR />By the way, I never believed that Sinn Féin was a pro-life organisation. It is the flip side of the IRA, which took over 2,000 lives in this country. I see the Member shaking her head. She does not like it, but it is a fact. If you do not have any respect for the life of people who are born, not having respect for the life of the unborn does not strike me as wildly ridiculous. <BR /> <BR />Ms Ruane also referred to the issue of terminations when there is a threat to life. Currently, Marie Stopes is operating on the basis of performing abortions before nine weeks — nine weeks or earlier.”
“I thought that I had done that. You indicated that you can be pro-choice in a limited way. I think that is what Lord Steel thought he was doing in 1967, yet eight million abortions have taken place in the United Kingdom since then. One needs to be very careful about what they think that they are supporting and what will actually be the case. <BR /> <BR />The interruptions have taken away the focus of where I was driving my argument. Let us be very clear: you cannot claim to be pro-life and ensure by your actions — going the second mile in your actions — that Marie Stopes International operates in Northern Ireland. It is an organisation that takes three to four million lives each year. You cannot claim to be pro-life and go hand in hand with such an organisation.”
“In a moment. Sinn Féin says that it is pro-life, yet it is standing shoulder to shoulder with the other two parties and, indeed, Mr McCrea, to support an organisation that is involved in the termination of three to four million pregnancies each and every year. How can you honestly stand up anywhere and say that you are pro-life but support an organisation that is taking the lives of three to four million unborn children each year, and allow it to operate here in Northern Ireland without regulation and without us knowing what it is doing? <BR /> <BR />Mr Lunn said that it is not breaking the law, but how can he know that? None of us knows what is going on behind those closed doors. We can only assume that it is not breaking the law, but we cannot say that that is the case.”
“I do not agree with his position, but he had the honesty to say that he is pro-choice. Sinn Féin says that it is pro-life.”
“The Member may be comfortable comparing a hip replacement with the termination of a life. I am not. The purpose of the Ulster Clinic, for example, is to provide a wide range of medical services to people who wish to pay for them privately. The purpose of the Marie Stopes clinic is to provide sexual reproductive advice and terminations of pregnancies. Those are completely and totally different issues. We need to be very clear about that. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin claims to be a pro-life party. It uses the mantra that it is opposed to the 1967 Abortion Act, so it must be pro-life. That is just not true; it is just not factual. Sinn Féin is standing shoulder to shoulder tonight with the Alliance and the Green Party. Mr Lunn had the honesty to say that he is pro-choice.”
“We should not seek to besmirch or slur the health service in any way, shape or form by saying that that is an issue. That is a red herring, introduced by Ms Ruane, which has no evidence base whatsoever. Let us be very clear in dealing with that —”
“The Member has just admitted that each one of the Sinn Féin contributors referred to lack of consultation, so it is very clearly not a tail-end Charlie but something that they believed was a strong and cogent argument against the issue on that occasion. That argument does not exist on this occasion because consultation has been extensively carried out, and many members of the public have participated in that. <BR /> <BR />We do not have compelling evidence that private clinics are needed. I listened again to Ms Ruane, who talked about people who are in life-threatening situations. There is no issue within the health service that, if someone's life were under threat as a consequence of carrying on a pregnancy, they would not get a termination of that pregnancy within the National Health Service. That is not an issue.”
“I will in just a moment. Under the guise of a lack of consultation, Sinn Féin tabled a petition of concern to block it the last time. They cannot make that excuse or give that reason on this occasion, but maybe Mr McCartney wishes to try.”
“It is interesting that, under the guise of a lack of consultation, which was the only reason put forward last time by Sinn Féin —”
“I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate on this group of amendments. I particularly welcome the amendments that relate to the issue of texting and people who follow that up to ensure that they engage in potential sexual liaison with minors. I think that is very powerful and hugely useful. It would be a shame if that were lost in this particular group because it is a very important step forward. I trust that it will receive widespread support in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />On the controversial issue — I am not sure that it should be controversial — of amendment No 34, I think that it is very clear that there is not, at this stage, any credible or compelling evidence that private clinics are needed. I listened carefully to Ms Ruane's arguments.”
“Does the Minister recognise that both Scotland and the Republic of Ireland are pouring more resource into research in agriculture and that the attack that she has made on AFBI is actually an attack on the entire agricultural community? The community will not achieve sustainability if it does not have the quality research that AFBI provides, and it will not be able to replace core funding through the other means that the Minister so blandly points out, with AFBI suffering substantial damage as a consequence.”
“Can the Minister give us an assurance that, where companies are highlighted that are not adhering to the principles that he has outlined, thorough investigation will take place to identify the veracity of the complaints and, if they are found to be right, actions taken thereon? Many small companies fear raising the issue because they believe that they will lose out on contracts. It is incumbent on us to defend the subcontractors and ensure that they are paid promptly.”
“Our sympathies are with him on what he has had to endure and the damage it has done to his life as a consequence. Indeed, it is the same for the others who were found innocent of the crimes committed against Adrian Carroll. They served many years in prison. They have had the opportunity to move on; Mr Worton has not, and our plea to the Minister of Justice is that he gives Mr Worton that chance to move on with the rest of his life.”
“The nature of justice is that people are brought before the courts on the basis of evidence that is before them and the Public Prosecution Service has a course of work to do in demonstrating that there is likely to be a conviction. I do not believe that that course of work was well applied in the case of Colin Worton, and, therefore, the circumstances are different from the discussion that took place between the two aforesaid Members, which would open the doors in a way that would lead to hundreds of millions of pounds in compensation having to be paid. <BR /> <BR />I think that Minister Ford has the ability to look at this, consider the ex gratia payments that Mr Maginness referred to and give proper reasoning and understanding to any compensation that could be paid to Mr Worton.”
“Colin Worton was not one of those people but was an innocent man who was drawn into this and held for two and a half years although there was not the evidence to support a conviction. Colin's desire to have his name cleared conclusively is something that he holds very strongly. Everyone recognises the man's innocence, but we want to see more done on that front. We would also like Minister Ford to take a look at the circumstances of the case. <BR /> <BR />I listened to the debate between Ms Kelly and Mr McCartney, and I do not think that we would be supportive of throwing the doors open for every single person who was held for a period of time to receive compensation.”
“The Colin Worton case has been ongoing for many years, as has the issue around the UDR four. At the outset, I will say that all our sympathies are with the Carroll family on the murder that took place. Murder is always wrong. The position of our party is that all murder is wrong. It was never justified in any circumstance. I do not need to be prompted by Sinn Féin on when I need to express my sympathies to anyone. We stand totally with that family on the loss of their son. It should never have happened. It was wrong and they deserve the support of the public. <BR /> <BR />They also deserve justice, and justice will be done when the people who committed that murder are brought before the courts of law and found guilty of having carried out that crime.”
“Does the Minister recognise that the pincer movement on the universities of capped tuition fees and reduced funding from his Department as a result of the Budget completely undermines the great leadership that we have in our universities and their attempts to ensure the quality of education? Does he agree with me that the consequence of spending the money on welfare as opposed to things like higher education will ultimately lead to more people remaining in poverty and more students having to go to England and other places to receive the appropriate qualifications, and the competitiveness of our universities will decline as a result?”
“Why has the Minister disproportionately slashed the AFBI budget by more than twice everybody else's cuts? It is close to 30%, which is going to lead to 400 job losses, including the closure of Crossnacreevy, the Omagh facility, and a significant reduction in the services conducted at Hillsborough.”
“We are proposing a Committee to discuss it. The Member seems to be opposing that, but he could change his mind.”
“I thank the Member. It is wrong that people who are engaged in a bed-and-breakfast business are forced to adopt a policy, if they want to maintain their business, that goes totally against their beliefs in a small family home. And —”
“The SDLP is not yet too late to support us in the amendment, which is a very reasoned amendment that allows us to engage in a continued discussion on this vexed issue. <BR /> <BR />We cannot force individuals to think particular things. It is sad that the Ashers case came to the fore through a cake that was to be used by the Alliance Party's Mayor of North Down, I believe, to promote gay marriage. I am happy to be challenged on that. If someone is not in support of gay marriage, why go to their business and seek to force them to provide that support? It is wrong that someone's conscience should be exercised on an issue like that.”
“It would be good if the SDLP listened to this point. He continued:”
“Mr Givan proposed a conscience clause Bill, which people immediately sought to close down. Ms Ruane, who has disappeared almost as quickly as she appeared and made her speech, is very quick to run around the Assembly seeking to get people to sign a petition of concern, and, quite foolishly, Basil McCrea and Steven Agnew supported her in that without allowing a debate to take place and without allowing those issues to come forward. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood asked why we made the amendment in the way that we did. We did that to facilitate and enable the SDLP to lend its support. Sadly, it has chosen not to. I am very surprised that it has chosen not to. Bishop Treanor was up at the Assembly in the past month, and he said that we need to have a discussion:”
“I have not started yet, so give me a moment or two to develop the debate. <BR /> <BR />Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who was, amongst other things, the Lord Advocate of Scotland, Lord of the Session, Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, Lord Chancellor and Lord High Commissioner, has made this following point of view known:”
“I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate. I know it is a debate that the Alliance Party wanted to close down a few months ago, making it very clear that that was the case. Interestingly enough, it comes to the Floor today with its proposal, and I think that that is on the basis that it has been publicly losing the argument and knows that it has been losing it. People are now publicly saying that this matter needs to be discussed, that we need to find a middle way and that there is, in fact, too much discrimination against people of Christian faith who have real concerns about engaging in particular things and being forced to do things that they are totally opposed to.”
“I trust that, when the Minister is looking at that opportunity, he will not ignore the chance to look at educational need in Dromore High School. The school was developed many years ago for around half of the population that it currently caters for, it performs particularly well in the local community and is very well regarded, and it does not have suitable recreational facilities for the needs of that school community.”