Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“<BR /> <BR />I turn now to the detail of the UK-wide provisions that touch on devolved matters: the Secretary of State's duty to report to Parliament on UK food security, which is addressed in clause 17; the regulation of fertilising products, which is in clause 31; the identification and traceability of animals, which is in clause 32; the regulation of organic producers, which is in clauses 36 and 37; and the UK's compliance with its obligations under the World Trade Organization's agreement on agriculture, which is in clauses 40 to 42. I will deal with each of those in turn. <BR /> <BR />Clause 17 places a duty on the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to lay a report before Parliament on UK food security at least once every five years.”
“It is also to provide a degree of flexibility in the implementation of the rolled-over regime that we are carrying forward, as well as the ability to keep pace with the changes needed to ensure the functioning of the UK internal market. <BR /> <BR />The Bill was originally drafted in the absence of an Executive and Assembly in Northern Ireland but was developed so as not to constrain the ability of an incoming Minister, Executive and Assembly to decide the long-term direction and nature of future agriculture support in Northern Ireland. That is an important point.”
“It is vital that we have those powers in place. Secondly, the schedule will enable us to modify, simplify and correct the framework carried forward out of the old CAP. It provides additional flexibility, should we wish to use it. Thirdly, it gives us certain keeping-pace powers to enable us to ensure that we can respond to changes that might be brought forward elsewhere in the UK and that could cause difficulties if we did not have the option. Schedule 6, therefore, is not designed to set up a new policy agenda. That is not its purpose. It is designed to provide certainty and stability whilst we develop our new policy framework.”
“Legislative consent is not being sought for either of those components — the UK-wide reserved matters or the clauses that relate only to England. Five remaining elements of the Bill are UK-wide in remit but cover devolved matters. Again, I will come back to those. I seek legislative consent to those elements. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland's and, hence, my primary interest in the Bill relates to schedule 6, which has three main objectives. The first is to provide in domestic legislation the legal basis for the full suite of CAP, pillar 1 and pillar 2 options that we had prior to the EU exit. Without that, we would not have the basis to continue direct support to farmers after this calendar year, nor would we have the option of continuing to make new commitments under current or modified pillar 2 schemes.”
“The Agriculture Bill is a UK Government Bill containing some UK-wide clauses, some of which are reserved and some of which touch on devolved matters. It also contains a small number of provisions that are specific to Northern Ireland. Before I get into the detail of those provisions, I want to explain the rationale behind Northern Ireland being included in this UK Government Bill in the first place. <BR /> <BR />The main body of the Bill is intended primarily to provide the legal basis for a future agriculture policy direction for England and reflects ideas that were shared with stakeholders a couple of years ago in DEFRA's 'Health and Harmony' document. There are also elements of the main body of the Bill that have a UK-wide reach, as they are related to reserved matters. I will come back to those in a few minutes.”
“One thing that I will say about Ivan is that, although he stood down from the council in 2011, he still provided huge support to many communities in Lisburn thereafter. He turned up to many of their events. He still engaged in a way in which many public representatives do not engage with their communities. Every year, the Lisburn Assessment and Resource Centre holds a fantastic event where the learning-disabled community has a night together: Ivan was always there. We will miss his friendship and community spirit. He has delivered much not just for the community in Lisburn and Lagan Valley but for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“One thing that he rebuked me for was that, in 2017, I did not call round to get my nomination paper signed by him. He had signed it for a number of years previously, despite the fact that he was a member of the Ulster Unionist Party. That was a demonstration of the friendship that existed between Ivan and me. One thing on which he reflected regularly was his imprisonment with my father for their protest against the Public Order Act 1986, when they walked from Smyth Patterson's in Lisburn to the police station on the road in defiance of that Act. They would not pay the fine and ended up being imprisoned for several days together. Ivan often reflected on that experience and had many a chuckle about it. <BR /> <BR />Ivan was a really decent guy, a really decent individual. He will be truly missed.”
“I have known Ivan Davis since 1973 when my father and Ivan were first elected to Lisburn Borough Council, which later became Lisburn City Council. Ivan was a true gentleman through all the time that I knew him. As Mr Butler pointed out, Ivan left the DUP in 1987. That was largely due to one particularly difficult individual, and we deeply regretted the loss of Ivan. Ivan was a fantastic community constituency worker. That was reflected in the old area D of Lisburn council, when he received some 3,700 votes in the 1981 election. That was more than three times the quota. It demonstrated the guy's individual popularity. He was elected to the council for 38 years in total. <BR /> <BR />Over the past number of years, I would have called with Ivan.”
“We need to push to drive up profitability, and the best means of doing that is by ensuring that we have qualitative markets — the best market that we have is the Great Britain market, which takes around 50% of our product — and no barriers. No barrier is of benefit to any person in Northern Ireland when it comes to trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.”
“I did not hear Members say that precisely, but they were saying that they wanted to be the same as the farmers in the Republic, which would mean that we would give them only 70%. I have good news for the people whom Sinn Féin represent: I will give them 100%, not the 70% that Sinn Féin wants to give them. <BR /> <BR />It is an important issue. Farming incomes have been down 25%, two years running. That is well over 40% when taken cumulatively. This is an important element of farm income. Ultimately, we need to work across the board to drive up profitability, because this does not cover the pressures that farms are under.”
“Over the past number of years, the Republic of Ireland has been contributing, I think, in and around £700 million net. That is likely to rise to over £2 billion as things stand, and, having been a net recipient for many years, they might find that it is not as desirable a place to be when they are contributing large amounts of money and having most of the laws made for them and most of their democracy stripped away from them. <BR /> <BR />We will seek certainty; that is what Members are asking for. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that farmers in this part of Ireland — Northern Ireland — will receive all of their money in one payment, in October. I know that some Members want it to be as it is for farmers in the Republic of Ireland, which would mean that they would not get it all in October; they would get only 70% of it and 30% later on.”
“I will give way in a moment. Farmers know full well that, had they stayed in the European Union, they would have seen their single farm payment diminished.”
“In the absence of them paying more, the only way that the accession countries can receive more is if they take something off the other countries. That is exactly what will happen. Let us be honest with the farming public — they know it anyway; farmers are ahead of the politicians most of the time —.”
“However, does anybody believe that there was certainty in the European Union? Europe is just going into a round of talks for the next seven years. The one thing that I am certain about is that the slice of the cake that we would have got, had we remained in the European Union, would have been smaller, because, reasonably, the countries that joined the European Union — the accession countries — had not got their fair share of the cake, and part of the deal the last time round was that they would get their fair share the next time round. There are only two ways in which to increase payments to the accession countries. One is by increasing the European Union's taxation on all nations, but I do not think that the other nations will wear that. Will the big contributors, such as Germany, France, Denmark and Holland pay more?”
“<BR /> <BR />As we move forward, we will seek to ensure that we can retain as large a single farm payment as possible that supports production, the environment, animal health and food quality and supports companies that do their job well and provide good care for the people they employ. Those are the food standards that we in Northern Ireland want to meet. We can face head-on the South Americas of this world by doing that, because we have the qualitative material going on to the supermarket shelves that the public need and want. <BR /> <BR />The European Union was mentioned. I hear what was said about uncertainty. There is uncertainty. We have a manifesto pledge from the Conservative Party, but what exactly that will be, going forward, has not yet been tied down.”
“However, we can expect that there will be more viruses across the world. Consequently, food security should be important to all of us. Having quality food produced in Northern Ireland, on the doorstep of the GB market, is something that should be appreciated and supported. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that it is being supported to the tune of £293 million this year; indeed, four of the Members who spoke from Sinn Féin quoted the figures in their constituencies. They are gobbling up £129 million in four constituencies. Thank you for giving me that useful information. It is appreciated and taken note of.”
“I welcome the comments made in the debate. Agriculture remains the most important element of industry in Northern Ireland. It employs in or around 100,000 people, has a turnover of £5 billion each year and provides food for close on 10 million people. Agriculture remains a key part of our society; it is part of the fabric of our society. It should not be dismissed as being of no relevance; indeed, the recent outbreak of coronavirus should drive home to people the importance of having quality food available at a source close to home. <BR /> <BR />I was with the Chief Scientific Adviser in the Irish Republic last week, and he believes that such viruses could come on a more regular basis as the years go forward. It could be in a particular breed of animal next time, or it could cross into humans. We do not know.”
“I am grateful to the Committee for facilitating that briefing. To sum up, my view is that the regulations should be approved in order to ensure that direct payments can continue to be made to farmers in Northern Ireland for the 2020 scheme year. <BR /> <BR />I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Common Agricultural Policy (Control and Enforcement) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2015, SR 2015/192, amendment 1 to regulation 1, corrects the reference to the definition of "direct payments". Amendment 2 to regulation 1 clarifies references to EU regulations or how they have been retained in UK law, that is, after the operability amendments, and relate to direct payments for the 2020 claim year. <BR /> <BR />Amendment 3 to regulation 7 excludes the reference to a Commission official to accompany an authorised person at an on-farm inspection for the 2020 claim year. As claims for 2020 will all be paid from national funds, there is no need for the EU Commission to carry out audits and visits to farms. <BR /> <BR />On 12 March 2020, my officials briefed the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs.”
“That is to make it clear that the reference is to the EU regulation as it applied before the EU exit, and therefore extend the areas designated as environmentally sensitive permanent grassland on 31 January 2020 to 31 December 2020. There is no change to the fields that are considered to be environmentally sensitive permanent grassland and are subject to a ploughing ban. As was previously the case, permanent grassland — land that has been in grass for more than five consecutive years — that is located in areas that are covered by the habitats directive and birds directive is considered to be environmentally sensitive and is subject to a ploughing ban.”
“Amendment 3 to regulation 16 removes an incorrect reference to article 2(c) of the direct payments regulation 1307/2013. That regulation relates to the tree species that can be considered as short coppice rotation, which can be used to meet ecological focus area requirements under greening. <BR /> <BR />Amendment 4 to regulation 20 is a rewording to include the words:”
“Operability amendments that were made by DEFRA to the EU regulation have changed those references. Minimum claim size, which is what is specified by regulation 12, is unchanged at three hectares.”
“Amendment 2, to regulation 12, removes references to EU regulation 1307/2013 that have become incorrect due to how the EU regulation has been retained in UK law.”
“As I said, they are necessary so that the rules continue to operate effectively in Northern Ireland for 2020. The Assembly will be aware of the importance of that to support the farming industry. <BR /> <BR />I will now provide further details on the nature of the technical amendments, which will correct two regulations. First, the amendments to the Common Agricultural Policy Basic Payment and Support Schemes Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2015, SR 2015/191. Amendment 1, to regulation 4, clarifies that paragraph (3) refers to article 22(1) of the Horizontal Implementing Regulation (EU) No 809/2014, as it relates to the 2020 scheme year direct payments. Deadline for applications remains unchanged at 15 May.”
“The House will also be aware that DEFRA has made two UK-wide statutory instruments to address inoperable provisions in retained EU law: the Direct Payments to Farmers (Amendment) Regulations 2020; and the Finance, Management and Monitoring of Direct Payments to Farmers (Amendment) Regulations 2020. Those statutory instruments also amended the domestic legislation that enforces EU direct payment rules in England. Furthermore, Scotland and Wales have made similar legislation, and it is necessary for DAERA to do the same to ensure that Northern Ireland domestic legislation is also fully operable. <BR /> <BR />The changes contained in the Common Agricultural Policy (Direct Payments to Farmers) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020 — annex A — are minor and technical.”
“As the House will be aware, the UK-wide Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020 — DPLC — which received Royal Assent on 30 January 2020, incorporated direct payments EU legislation into domestic law for claim year 2020. The Act contained powers to make further regulations in order to correct deficiencies in domestic law to ensure that the Department can administer the direct payment schemes effectively and make eligible payments to farmers in 2020.”
“Those assets include the environmental assets on the farm, and SDA farms are well placed to play a major role in delivering more of the environmental outcomes that the citizens want and that we owe to future generations. Farmers should be properly rewarded for delivering those environmental outcomes, and it offers a way forward. <BR /> <BR />In summary, the role of SDA farmers, like all farmers, will evolve as we move forward. No industry can afford to stand still or, worse, go backwards. How we have done things in terms of convergence and all of that has not helped the industry to go forward and be more efficient and encourage young people into the industry. Most importantly, I want to devise the appropriate schemes and measures beyond 2020 that are good for all farmers and provide the basis of a sustainable and profitable future.”
“I want, in particular, to mention the suggestion in the document around a basic farm resilience support as one possible option, moving forward, and the relevance to the debate today is that a basic farm resilience support payment could be designed to take into account issues such as natural disadvantage based on soil and climate factors, as well as targeting productive farmers. I have tasked officials to flesh out those ideas as quickly as possible. <BR /> <BR />That is only part of the solution. We need to help farmers, no matter where they are, to become more efficient and maximise sustainable returns so that they can achieve from the assets at their disposal.”
“The third is to have an industry that displays improved resilience to external shocks such as market volatility and extreme weather events, which have never been more frequent and to which the industry has become very exposed. Again, ANC does not help with that. The fourth is to have an industry that operates with an integrated, efficient, sustainable, competitive and responsive supply chain with clear market signals and an overriding focus on high-quality food and the end consumer. ANC does not assist with that. <BR /> <BR />Those four outcomes complement each other and are broadly supported by the stakeholders. Our focus now needs to turn to how we can deliver those outcomes.”
“In 2018, my Department undertook an engagement exercise on a potential future agricultural policy framework for Northern Ireland, and, in that proposed framework, my officials, in conjunction with key food, farming and environment stakeholders, identified four desired outcomes and a long-term vision for the Northern Ireland agri-food industry. The first of those is an industry that pursues increased productivity in international terms, closing the productivity gap that has been opening up with our major suppliers. An ANC scheme does not do that. The second is to have an industry that is environmentally sustainable in terms of its impact on and guardianship of air and water quality, soil health and carbon footprint and diversity. ANC does not do that.”
“Rather than reintroducing a second area-based payment, I will focus my time and effort on devising schemes and support measures that are good for all farmers, in particular younger people who want to come into farming, younger people who do not own large swathes of land, who have to rent land and who want to make a living off farming and make a go of it, as opposed to the people who already sit on amounts of land and are not properly utilising it. <BR /> <BR />The United Kingdom has left the European Union and the CAP, and the most significant policy change affecting the agri-food sector in over 40 years means that our policies do not have to be constrained by the existing CAP pillar 1 and pillar 2 construct. We need to move to something new that better addresses the needs of Northern Ireland agriculture.”
“<BR /> <BR />These provisions have been designed so that the House and the Minister have flexibility to make such decisions, but I have to point out that, in order to introduce an ANC scheme, the funds would have to be provided by scaling back direct payments to all farmers, which would result in that transfer from farmers who have already yielded money towards the ANC areas having to yield further funds to some of the constituencies that I mentioned. That has to be seen in the context of the £18 million on an ongoing annual basis that has already moved into the SDA.”
“<BR /> <BR />Taking that on board, I can say that SDA farmers, as a whole, have increased the value of their total payments from the CAP, despite the ending of the ANC scheme. While there will always be winners and losers at an individual level, at a regional level there has been no negative impact on SDA farmers. I want to make it clear that I do not intend to introduce an ANC scheme this year: I cannot. It is simply not possible. It would be possible to introduce an ANC scheme under the new Agriculture Bill, but the Bill's provisions will be operational only from 2021 onwards.”
“Ms Dolan said that Sinn Féin does not agree. Not agreeing is one thing, but we have to look at the facts. Facts are stubborn things from which it is hard to get away. Scotland was mentioned in the debate: Scotland pays out £128 per hectare. Wales pays out £243 per hectare. England and the Republic of Ireland have managed to reach convergence, and they both pay £261 per hectare. Lo and behold, Northern Ireland pays £333 per hectare. Therefore, the farmers who own large swathes of land that is more in the hills than in the lowlands have benefited most and benefit more than any other farmer in these islands. Consequently, Minister McIlveen decided that the scheme would operate for just one additional transitional year on a budget of £8 million. Without that decision, the scheme would have ended in 2017.”
“I understand that Mr Catney wants to take money away from farmers in Lagan Valley and give it to farmers in the ANC area. Mr Blair wants to do that in South Antrim and give the money to farmers in other constituencies. Mrs Barton wants to take money from Mr Nesbitt's constituency and give it to farmers in hers, and so it goes on. The truth is that farmers who had already benefited from convergence would then be dipping into the funds of other farmers who had already been disadvantaged as a result of convergence, and to do that would put those farmers into greater hardship. <BR /> <BR />The ROI has not moved as quickly as Northern Ireland towards convergence and a flat-rate pillar 1 payment per hectare, and payments are still more based on production. Those are key factors that everybody needs to take into account.”
“It is interesting that the Member raises that issue, because I know that one of his colleagues took the issue to the Equality Commission. The commission did not see any issue of equality in it, and it was thrown out. I have heard quite a number of Sinn Féin Members refer to equality in the debate, yet they did not refer to the fact that Sinn Féin had raised the matter with the Equality Commission and lost its case. <BR /> <BR />Given budgetary constraints at the time, it was not possible to source a new funding stream to continue operating the ANC scheme from Executive funds. The only alternative was to transfer money from pillar 1 — direct support payments — to create the necessary budget, and the clear message from the consultation that took place and the responses that came back was that that was not an acceptable option.”
“I will give way in one moment. <BR /> <BR />Some in the ANC scheme have lost out. The busiest livestock farmers lost out as a result of convergence. In general, however, ANC farmers have benefited from convergence. I will give way.”
“At the exchange rate that was used for direct payments by 2019, the uplift was at least comparable to previous ANC receipts in 2016 and 2017. For example, for ANC farmers in Fermanagh and South Tyrone, the net uplift was £3·8 million. For those in West Tyrone, which covers the Sperrins, the net uplift was £4·3 million. For those in North Antrim, which covers the glens, the net uplift was £3·2 million. For those in Mid Ulster, which also covers the Sperrins, the net uplift was £2·6 million. All those areas have had an uplift as a result of convergence.”
“I was criticised by one of our local newspapers for taking a ministerial direction to give money to the Northern Ireland Hospice and Mencap some years ago, but I suggest that it was the best money that was ever spent by the Department of Health. Those are two wonderful facilities, and I recommend that Members go there to see the support and care that they provide to people in that arena. We have to take cognisance of the issues that are put before us, but civil servants give advice and Ministers make decisions. I am not afraid to do that. <BR /> <BR />It was recognised that the redistribution of the basic farm payment scheme pillar 1 fund since 2015 had given an uplift to the SDA farmers that equated to an additional £18 million.”
“I am also aware that the economic viability of suckler cows and sheep production in the SDAs is vulnerable. <BR /> <BR />The ANC scheme formed part of the EU rural development programme 2014-2020 and was worth £20 million per annum in 2016-17. At that time, Minister O'Neill programmed the scheme to run for two years because she felt that that was all that was affordable, and a review of the ANC scheme was then to take place to determine the next steps. That was a review that Minister O'Neill asked for. <BR /> <BR />I should say that, when Minister O'Neill introduced the ANC scheme, the business case for it did not stack up. It was done by ministerial direction; it was not done on the basis of an identified need that was supported by a business plan.”
“<BR /> <BR />SDA farmers work on land that was classified as "severely disadvantaged" back in the 1970s, and around 485,000 hectares of agricultural land was classified as SDA. It makes up just under half of all agriculture in Northern Ireland and is farmed by just under 10,000 farmers, mostly beef and sheep farmers. The SDAs are concentrated mainly in the mountain areas of Mourne, the glens of Antrim, the Sperrins and most of Fermanagh. Those farms are so important to our ecosystem, to our environment and to the production of quality goods that are often finished elsewhere. The biophysical characteristics of the SDAs dictate that there are limited agriculture opportunities beyond cattle — that is, suckler cows — and sheep production.”
“The Assembly will be sick of looking at me. Nonetheless, since my appointment as Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Minister, I have had a number of calls to introduce the areas of natural constraint scheme and have listened to concerns that the closure of the ANC scheme had, in some way, brought disadvantage to farmers in severely disadvantaged areas (SDAs). I welcome the motion, as it affords me the opportunity to provide the facts around the closure of the scheme and the real impact that it had on farmers, and it allows me to again put on record that, going forward, I want to devise support schemes that are good for all our farmers, including those farming in the SDAs.”
“Yes. When I was in DCAL, he reminded me about it often, so I know the importance of the eel fishing industry in that area. Many people want to acquire that premium product, so I understand that the fishermen need to have the opportunity to catch that very high value commodity.”
“I know the importance of the eel industry. There used to be a Father —”
“Maybe the Member needs to talk to the Minister for Infrastructure about flood alleviation and ensuring that our rivers maybe get a bit more dredging and can take more water away. If we look over at England and at many of the floods there, we see that it has been because of the lack of dredging that they have reached the point where many homes have flooded. Thankfully, in Northern Ireland, we did not get to that point this year, but we were not that far off it just a few days ago. We have had a bit of respite, but, were there to be further bad weather incidents, we could be at that point. We should not be at all complacent. I will visit the area to look at the conditions for myself.”
“Absolutely. I have been talking to the Minister of Health about rural isolation and mental health issues. Sadly, many incidents happen in rural communities as a consequence of that isolation, when people do not have the opportunity to talk to others when they feel down and depressed. Those are all issues to which we need to find solutions. That is a collective task for all in the Assembly. We need to work together and in the best interests of all of our people, but, in this instance, for the rural community in particular.”
“That is cross-departmental and affects a wide range of Departments. The Department for Infrastructure has many responsibilities for transportation, ensuring that people who live in areas that are more challenging to reach do not lose the opportunity to go to medical appointments and that their children have reasonable access to school transport and all of those things. We all have a role to play in ensuring that the rural community, which is a vibrant and vital community in Northern Ireland, can go about its business to the best of its ability. Bearing in mind that many in that community are not well off, we need to be able to support and facilitate them, especially for their key needs.”
“I am very interested in anything that encourages young people to get involved. If the Member wants to pass on the details, I will give them my fullest consideration.”
“I hear the Member tut-tutting, but can she argue that it would not be better for the environment if fewer cars were sitting outside school gates with fumes coming out of them? <BR /> <BR />In any event, we will, hopefully, be joined by over 500 young people next week as we commence the programme of planting trees. We want to engage with young people and the youth population and encourage them to get more involved in our environment, in our biodiversity, in our forests and all that. That is part of the programme, and we will work with the Department of Education and others to develop it.”
“Our young people are very important in the whole environmental issue. Young people are talking a lot about the environment. I encourage young people not to get lifts to school but to use public transport or to walk, and that would be more effective than strikes. That is one thing that I would say.”