Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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“The road safety branch of the DOE moves very slowly. I wanted to introduce a new driving test regime because the existing one is not fit for purpose. Mr Elliott, who is now absent, said that a lot of the problems on our roads relate to driver attitude, but we still have a driving test that is largely a manoeuvres test. It does not adequately deal with driver attitude and the risks on the road and it does not adequately ensure that young people are prepared for those risks. It forces young people to drive at 45 mph. I see them on the motorways, and they cause danger to themselves and other road users by driving at 45 mph and sticking rigorously to the law. Change is really needed. I encourage the Member's party to move forward more rapidly on that and to press the road safety division to bring those matters forward.”
“The police do not apply the speed limit; they allow the traffic to flow perhaps at 80 mph or more, but they do not pull people in for driving at those speeds. Should we not look at speed limits in a more comprehensive way? <BR /> <BR />My constituency is both urban and rural, and many people spend an awful lot of time in their cars. If some people had their way here today, they would spend an awful lot more time in their cars rather than doing other things in life. We do not need to punish the motorist continually. We need to ensure that if we introduce measures to reduce speed limits to apply road safety, we also look at other areas where we will not impact on road safety, but we could raise speed limits and do that in a very safe way.”
“Would it not be better if the proposed legislation was more comprehensive and looked at speed limits in general? While there is an acceptance that, in certain places, speed limits should be reduced, it is also reasonable to look at where you could raise speed limits. There is a perception that motorists are bad for the environment, so we will impose all sorts of taxes and new rules on them, here, there and everywhere, often willy-nilly. <BR /> <BR />I was in Germany two years ago, and was there again last year, where there are excellent road safety standards, but there is no speed limit on the motorways. When you come to the built-up junctions, there is a speed limit that people observe, and it works extremely well. If you go to England, you have a speed limit that is not applied.”
“Does the Minister recognise the stresses that school governors and management teams have been under? Given the significant rise that he received following approval by the Executive of the Department of Finance and Personnel's proposal, will he adjust school budgets significantly upwards from the original proposal?”
“— and support the motion today, which can take Northern Ireland a significant step forward in tackling crime.”
“This is a no-brainer, and Sinn Féin would do well to step up to the plate, demonstrate some degree of responsibility —”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. Of course, they can take their seats in Westminster; they just choose not to represent the people on that front. <BR /> <BR />I believe that crime will be tackled more effectively. While it will not be a panacea — there will still be people out there engaging in criminal activity — it will be another tool in the armoury, and a very significant tool it will be. <BR /> <BR />I was going to suggest that Minister Ford was having tremendous difficulties funding an organisation in the Member's constituency — on Railway Street in Ballymena — that was doing tremendous work. Would it not be wonderful if the assets stripped off criminals could be put into an organisation like that and help to maintain organisations that support women who are being brutalised, people who are trying to come off drugs and all those things?”
“Sinn Féin engages in that accountability mechanism yet seeks to block the National Crime Agency, in spite of the fact that the accountability measures have been applied through the Policing Board and the PSNI Chief Constable. One has to pose this question again: what is Sinn Féin's problem with this? Over the past 10 years in Wales — I do not believe that Wales has as strong a criminal underworld as Northern Ireland — £46 million that was in the hands of criminals has been released back into the community. One thinks, for example, of Minister Ford's problems in funding the likes of the Railway Street —”
“It will relieve considerable pressure on the PSNI and put considerably greater pressure on individuals involved in crime. <BR /> <BR />Some months ago, George Hamilton, the Chief Constable, indicated that he was satisfied with the accountability measures that are in place. That had not always been the case. So I welcome the fact that the SDLP has now crossed the line and it, too, is satisfied with the accountability measures. It is right and appropriate that we have one police service in Northern Ireland. That is something that we need to be very careful about in moving forward with historic investigations: that we have one police service that is accountable to the people of Northern Ireland.”
“Why does Sinn Féin not want to go after that organisation? Perhaps it will explain. Maybe the next Sinn Féin member to speak will tell us why that party does not want to go after the assets of those criminals — individuals who will terrorise the communities that they represent. They will bully and evict people within those communities and use weaponry against those individuals — weaponry bought by the benefits of having those criminal assets that Sinn Féin does not want removed from such individuals. It is good news for those people who are opposed to people smuggling and the criminal activities that are taking place in this Province daily. I welcome the fact that we have moved a considerable step forward to bringing the National Crime Agency to Northern Ireland.”
“The people of Northern Ireland will welcome the fact that Sinn Féin is no longer capable of blocking this particular measure from going forward, because it will make a real, tangible, demonstrable difference to the lives of people across Northern Ireland, and it will make a real, tangible, demonstrable difference to the criminals who are operating in Northern Ireland. For the last number of years, we have not been able to claim the assets from the criminals and they have been able to keep them, as a result of the procrastination that has taken place around this issue. As a consequence, the criminals have been pounds in. <BR /> <BR />What is Sinn Féin afraid of? We know that one of the organisations in republican circles was recently named as being in the top 10 of criminal organisations for its wealth and assets.”
“Mr Speaker, it is not often that I am brought in as a peacemaker, but on this occasion I am happy to intervene in the tussle between the Minister and Mr McCartney. Sinn Féin would do well to examine the £700,000 that it pays to Research Services Ireland if the information that it gets is so faulty. I have just come from a Committee meeting where Sinn Féin also had faulty information. <BR /> <BR />This is a good day. There has been a whole series of blocking mechanisms around this issue for a long period.”
“When Sue McAllister was at the Committee, she said that one threat was one threat too many and that the concessions being given to the prisoners would be removed if the threats resumed. Can we be assured in the House today that the concessions given to prisoners will be removed and that we deal with them in a very strong way, as opposed to being lapdogs to the prisoners?”
“For individuals to string this out and engage in all sorts of transparent denials only adds to the troubles of people who have already had their life destroyed by those individuals and brings further trauma upon them. That is wholly wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />As for what is going on in Banbridge, some people should look at themselves and examine themselves in terms of openness, honesty, transparency and integrity. Some people who have been witnesses to the inquiry — people who have been accused of various things — are being far from honest. They are cold; they are calculating; they are menacing; and they still seek to bully the victims. That adds to the trauma that has taken place. I commend Father Tim Bartlett, who came to Banbridge and was open, honest and transparent. Unfortunately, the De La Salle order, in particular, has been anything but; its behaviour has been disgraceful thus far. People need to examine how they are doing this. Wrong has been done; wrong has been perpetuated.”
“There is absolutely no doubt that the trauma that is being caused to individuals, although it is necessary that it is done this way, is extensive. Therefore the groups who support those people need to be supported, and we need to have the appropriate statutory people in place. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood raised the issue of financial redress. It is important that discussions start with people on that issue. Let me be very clear: the victim makers should be the victim payers. Those who engaged in daily abuse and the orders and groups of people who allowed this to happen day after day after day are responsible for their actions and should have to pay for them. Victims deserve some form of redress for that. Those discussions need to be opened up, and they need to be had.”
“That said, it is important that OFMDFM looks at the support that it provides to the support groups — the people who are down there daily with the victims, giving them support — and ensures that those people and organisations are adequately supported for the work that they do and that the statutory sector has the requisite people available to the individuals who have given evidence. <BR /> <BR />There can be absolutely no doubt that it is desperately traumatic for individuals to relive what has happened to them, maybe 50 or 60 years ago, in some cases, or perhaps longer. Many of those people, many older people, are having to go through something that they have sought not to think about and are having to be questioned in fairly considerable detail about those circumstances.”
“The Member has articulated the issues that would arise as a consequence of going for an interim report. It is not, therefore, something that can be identified as wholly advantageous. <BR />This is by no means a perfect process, and nobody suggests that it is. It is a process in which people do their best to deal with a problem that arose, as Mr Nesbitt indicated, in some cases, right back as far as 1922. However, it is incredibly important that the Executive and the Assembly ensure that we do our utmost to support the victims of this kind of abuse.”
“I can see the argument for an interim report, but, again, we need to take counsel from Sir Anthony on that, because it may delay the final report. It may be helpful to some and unhelpful to others.”
“Some Members complained this morning about the time it has taken to conduct the inquiry, but we need to recognise that the time taken to conduct the inquiry is not because it is being drawn out. Sir Anthony is conducting the inquiry very well, and we need to recognise that and express our appreciation of the work that he is doing. He has taken on the very difficult role of listening day in, day out, to how people were abused as children. We need to recognise that he is doing an excellent job and give him our support. It is the scale of abuse that is holding the inquiry back. There has been so much abuse and there are so many victims who need to tell their story: that is causing the delay. <BR /> <BR />I move on to the argument over an interim versus a final report.”
“Sir Liam Donaldson's report last week identified people wanting to sensationalise. Does the Minister agree that, today, there are those in this Chamber who are seeking to sensationalise? Will he join me in congratulating the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Nursing Officer and all those who have given leadership and ensured that we have had a much better winter this year as a result of a lot of hard work that has been carried out over the period since last year?”
“We need to work closely with the care home sector and ensure that the standards that it provides are standards that we find acceptable. These people are our elderly population and our relatives, and, some day, it may well be us. It is absolutely critical that we get this one right and provide the appropriate care for our elderly population. If legislation helps, bring it on, but we need to look at a much wider picture than legislation alone.”
“In Northern Ireland, we are not in a position to pay that money. That is the crude reality of it. <BR /> <BR />The truth is that, if you want to address the problem, you need to ensure that care homes can, first, employ people whom they have had the opportunity to adequately train and who are suitable to work with the elderly. Tesco is able to offer £2 or £3 an hour more for a job stacking shelves than people get for looking after our elderly. We need to ensure that care homes can take on the right people, can train them adequately and have the right management structures in place for supervision. <BR /> <BR />I must make it clear that am not against legislation, but there is so much more that can be done without legislation.”
“That suggests to me that if all care homes were operating with a bit more money — not lots more money, but a bit more money — the standards would rise fairly dramatically across the system.”
“In my previous role, I expressed many times the view that the most significant challenge I had was the care of the elderly. It is not about cardiac care or cancers, because those things can be dealt with. Sometimes we have success and sometimes we do not, but there is a means of dealing with them. With the growing elderly population, we face a real challenge as an Assembly and an Executive along with the Department in how we respond to that. <BR /> <BR />There is a massive difference between care homes. Some of them are superb, and others fall well short of expectations. Very often, you will know instantly when you enter a care home — just by the smell of it — whether it is a good home or not. Very often, the care homes that deliver the best are the ones that have a fairly modest top-up of maybe £30 per week.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr McKinney rightly pointed out that the motion deals only with allegations of abuse against older people in care homes. We know that people in the domiciliary care setting — in their own homes — have also been victims of abuse. There have been cases where people have stolen people's food and done other things to them that have made the headlines. Therefore, it is incumbent on us and it is very important that, whatever we do, we ensure that we encompass all aspects of care of our elderly population and ensure that we offer adequate protection and safeguarding. <BR /> <BR />Legislation in and of itself may be helpful. That is something that we need to tease our and investigate further. However, legislation alone will not be enough. The truth is that we need to look at how we care for our older people.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on the matter. At the outset, I indicate my appreciation to the many good people who provide care for our elderly population, whether it is in residential homes, nursing homes or through domiciliary care or whatever else. Indeed, many volunteers provide support to our elderly. <BR /> <BR />Abuse is wrong when it is perpetrated against vulnerable people, whether they happen to be the elderly, children, the learning disabled or whatever. It is always wrong, and we, as a society, should always take whatever actions we can to ensure that the people who perpetrate abuse are brought to justice for it. I welcome the motion and the opportunity it creates to debate a very important subject.”
“I thank the Member for mentioning that abuse takes place not just in care homes but outside them as well. Does the Member support tougher sentencing for people who perpetrate crimes against the elderly?”
“Is it not long time, Minister, that you told the unions that their demands are unreasonable, their actions unacceptable and bring in the private sector, which would be quite happy to restore people's water after 5.00 pm and over the weekend, as opposed to having the vulnerable elderly and children being starved of the resource of water?”
“The cod quota has been reduced by 20% every year since 2006-07, so there has been a significant failure on the part of the Department in each of those years. The evidence coming from the sentinel fisheries programme is that there has been a recovery of cod. So why is the evidence being ignored when it comes to the dispensing of quota, and why are we not using the science that is available to us? <BR /> <BR />Can the Minister assure the House that the change to the new European Maritime and Fisheries Fund will be seamless with the end of the current European Fisheries Fund and that there will not be a gap between those two funds?”
“The Minister's last comment is very important, as the director general indicated that one threat is one too many. It is absolutely criminal that we continue to give concessions to prisoners while the threats continue. Will Minister Ford stand with the director general in saying that one threat is one too many, or is he so caught up in the spirit of Christmas that he will continue to be the Minister who just keeps giving to prisoners and republican prisoners?”
“I welcome the fact that the Minister seems to have been stirred up from his laissez-faire approach to the child sex abuse that has been perpetrated by paramilitary organisations. We know that the PPS has been sitting on a report, carried out by the Attorney General, for over a year. What steps does the Minister intend to take to move this forward, and to do so at a rapid pace, rather than have it as something that is put on the long finger?”
“— can pose a risk to the security of the prison. Therefore, we in this party will continue to oppose that. I support the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />Prior to its closure, we saw what it was like in the Maze. We saw murders in the loyalist and republican wings and rape in the prisons. Drug abuse is commonplace in Maghaberry prison, and drugs are smuggled into that prison regularly. If drugs can be smuggled into the prison, surely explosives could also be smuggled into the prison. <BR /> <BR />Any attempt to drop security and reduce the steps that we take to ensure the security of our prison —”
“Those people are in prison, not because they took an extra bun at the Sunday school picnic or for not paying a TV licence. They are in prison for murder, attempted murder, the possession of lethal weapons and explosives and all sorts of other activities. They are dangerous people. <BR /> <BR />Allowing six people to be on the wings is a significant concession to them, and they will keep pursuing their demands for free unlocked access for 24 hours whilst we keep conceding. Let us be very clear to the prisoners: they are in prison for a particular reason, because they have committed crimes against society and have lost their freedom. Given the nature of the offences that they have committed, they are high-risk prisoners and, consequently, we have to ensure the safety of the prison staff and other prisoners.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the recommendations, we go back to 2010. This has been like a game of ping-pong, with the debate on how we should be responding to the issues going from one side to the other. We have the people who are indicating that we should be giving ground to the prisoners, and we have those of us who are very clearly saying, "Let us see the colour of the prisoners' money in the first instance". The threats have to stop, and not just within the prison but outside. The behaviour of republican terrorist organisations associated with the prisoners needs to be such that prisoners are not, on the one hand, being allowed concessions whilst, on the other hand, people outside the prison are threatening, abusing, bullying and terrorising other individuals. <BR /> <BR />Let us be clear and take a very clear stance.”
“I welcome the fact that it is "being addressed", but the situation should not have transpired in the first instance. We will closely monitor that. Of course, as a consequence, many prison officers are under greater pressure and greater stress, resulting in higher levels of sickness and therefore more people on overtime. Therefore, it is very important that it be addressed, and addressed very quickly. <BR /> <BR />Moreover, there were 47 assaults by prisoners on members of staff from August 2011 to July 2012, but, from August 2013 to July 2014, that figure doubled to 94. The number of assaults on other prisoners went up from 316 to 342, so we are not seeing an improvement in the safety of Maghaberry prison under this regime, this Minister and this director general. Those are all key aspects that need to be dealt with today.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have people visiting the prison from the Republic of Ireland. Indeed, the Minister approved three visits from senior politicians in the Republic of Ireland this year, as well as visits in previous years. They are interfering with what is going on in our prison, and that is not appropriate. They are visiting dissident republican prisoners. <BR /> <BR />When we are talking about the safety of prisons, staffing is a key issue. There should be 861 members of staff in Maghaberry, yet there are currently 812. There is a recruitment issue there that the Minister and, indeed, the director general and officials need to address. The issue has not been addressed, and, consequently, that is putting the prison under more pressure.”
“I accept that we have diametrically opposed opinions. The view of the Members opposite is that we need to give the prisoners a chance. Our view is very clear: the prisoners need to demonstrate that they are going to obey the rules of the regime, that they are going to engage with the regime and that they are not going to be threatening prison officers. We have had substantive threats to prison officers in the last few weeks. The prisoners are still misbehaving, but you want to give people a chance who were threatening to kill people weeks ago. You are saying, "We will give you a few more concessions now". Therein lies the problem: we have people who are well-meaning and sincere, but they are being taken for a ride by the prisoners. We must be very conscious of that.”
“Mr Lynch referred to Roe House as being a prison within a prison. That is because the republicans prisoners in Maghaberry wanted separated status. Just remember this: Roe House is there because republican prisoners wanted separated status. However, what they ultimately want is a prison regime that is similar to that when the Maze was closed down.”
“They will have negotiations, behave for a period of time, then engage more bully-boy tactics, extract more concessions — and so the cycle goes on until they get what they really want.”
“His wife's words were "Why did they kill David?" Did they kill David to achieve a united Ireland? They know full well that killing one prison officer will not move a united Ireland closer by one millisecond. Why, then, did they kill David Black? Why have they targeted all of the other prison officers? Why have hundreds of prison officers had to have extra security applied to their homes? Why do they make threats against prison officers? It is because they see it as a means to an end. It is because they will use bully-boy tactics to achieve goals. The goals that they seek to achieve have been set out. They have made their requests and their demands. The approach employed over and over again is to use the bully-boy tactics, then back off a little.”
“I welcome the opportunity to wind up the debate. Prison Service staff stand between us and anarchy. The people who are behind bars are there because the justice system has deemed them to have committed a crime, to be dangerous to the community and to be in need of reform. That would not be carried out if it were not for the work of Prison Service staff. They are a critical component of the well-being of society and therefore deserve our full support. I am somewhat disappointed that the SDLP has pulled back from giving that support and sought to water down the motion with its amendment, which would remove key parts of it. Those staff deserve our support because they stand between us and anarchy. <BR /> <BR />I visited the home of David Black after his gruesome murder.”
“When the Minister reviews all these matters, will she consider taking away from the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) the authority for cross-compliance checking? It is carrying out its duties in such a way that it is damaging farmers' health and mental health, and it is driving farmers to attempt suicide. The anger in the farming community towards NIEA is palpable.”
“Child sexual abuse and exploitation is always wrong, whether it is by a state, a Church or paramilitaries. The women in Sinn Féin should be ashamed of how they are seeking to cover up for those who have engaged in child sexual exploitation and abuse. They are failing and have failed young republican children very badly. <BR /> <BR />There was a large focus on children's care homes. However, the reality is that child sexual exploitation takes place in far greater numbers outside that scenario. Can we have some thoughts about how we can ensure that we better protect young vulnerable people who are in a home environment, as opposed to a children's home, from child sexual exploitation and make them more aware of the risks and dangers they might face?”
“— will be reversed. That is to the detriment of the people of Northern Ireland, but it is not the fault of Jim Wells or the DUP; it is the fault of those who are starving our Executive of the money that they need to provide healthcare.”
“There were opportunities to make health better, and it happened. As a result of the retraction in funding that Mr Wells faces, those opportunities —”
“Many people, as a consequence of the decision that we had to take to stop using the private sector and to cut elective surgery, will now have to wait an inordinate time. When people come to the offices of Sinn Féin, I hope that Sinn Féin will say, "You know what? We actually thought it was worthwhile that you had to wait for 26 weeks or 52 weeks or whatever period of time it was because, actually, we don't like the private sector doing anything, and, in any event, we consider welfare to be more important than health. We're very sorry about that, but that's the situation here." That is the reality. <BR /> <BR />There were many opportunities to reduce waiting times for drugs, reduce waiting lists in our hospitals and reduce waiting times in our emergency departments across the board.”
“Let us be clear about it: there will be further cuts as a result of the actions not of Jim Wells but of Sinn Féin and, to a lesser extent because we could go without them, of the SDLP. As a result of their actions, the cuts will impact on the Department. <BR /> <BR />When I had the opportunity of being in health, 131,000 people were on the outpatient waiting list in 2011. We managed to reduce that to fewer than 100,000; we took over 30,000 people off the waiting list by using the private sector, which many people will condemn. However, it provided a lower-cost option. We treated people who needed opthalmic surgery, hip replacements, knee replacements and lots of those everyday things; it was not life-saving care, but it was care that was badly needed for people to have a quality of life.”
“The current Minister is in a difficult position because trusts and everybody else were held to ransom by Sinn Féin on that occasion. It offered a paltry £20 million, even though Martin McGuinness had set out to him in the clearest possible terms by the most senior officials in the Health Department the crying need to deal with the issue. He ignored the views of the Chief Medical Officer because welfare is more important to Sinn Féin than health. Let us not beat about the bush: that is the truth of the situation. The consequences were explained fully. In truth, when Sinn Féin stands with the people in Dalriada, it is not really standing with them; it is not standing with the people in Northern Ireland who will face further cuts.”