Edwin Poots
South Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I call Mr Eóin Tennyson. Again, this is Mr Tennyson's first opportunity to speak as a private Member, so I remind the House that it is convention that a maiden speech be made without interruption. However, if you choose to express views that provoke an interruption, you are likely to forfeit that protection.”
“Sorry — Ms Armstrong. My apologies. <BR /> <BR />That the Assembly could, in some way, get that money out when it is a UK Government responsibility. The UK Government have distributed it directly in Scotland and Wales, not through the Welsh Parliament and not through the Scottish Parliament.”
“I have not got time; I am sorry. <BR /> <BR />Ursula von der Leyen, who was in the Republic last week, made some of the most ridiculous claims about the British Government, who have supported Ukraine in a way that no other Government in Europe have and who have never engaged in the activity that was suggested by Ursula von der Leyen.”
“Today, a lot of statements have been made but there has not been a lot of fact behind a lot of what has been said. We have Michelle O'Neill, who walked out of her role as Health Minister — not for six months but for three years — and abandoned her position when we had Bengoa and there were all the problems with nursing that led to the str…”
“I need to deal with the issues first. <BR /> <BR />He referred to the Budget that he produced. No party supported that Budget. The Alliance Party did not support it, because it did not cover policing and prisons. Infrastructure did not support it, because it would not allow it to do the basics of what had to be done.”
“We had a circumstance where Sinn Féin repeated, month after month after month, that there were hundreds of millions to give to the public when that did not exist and when, in reality, Minister Murphy was racking up debt that will roll into next year, which will ensure that that will be a difficult financial year.”
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Every one of 3,549 lines we hold for Edwin Poots, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 34 of 71.
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to make a short statement to the House about two major investments by my Department. It was an oversight on my part that the first one went out publicly before I got it to the Assembly. I apologise to you, Mr Speaker, for that.”
“Thank you. <BR /> <BR />— on its key aspect, which is the long-term greenhouse gas emissions target. Is the spirit of the Bill just to cherry-pick the advice and evidence that suits and to disregard any sound or impartial evidence? <BR /> <BR />I could say more, Mr Speaker, but I respect your call. I oppose the Bill as it is currently proposed.”
“The CCC's advice is considered to be an essential element by the Bill's sponsors, yet they completely ignore the advice from the CCC —”
“Have they asked whether those duties can be fulfilled under the current structures? Are there adequate resources and expertise? Does the Bill not place any duties on my Department or any other Northern Ireland Department to provide input to the Executive Office to enable it to fulfil its duties? What engagement has the Bill sponsor had with CCC in respect of the new functions that the Bill places on it? Can it be resourced to carry those out?”
“In contrast, my Department consulted on policy options for climate change legislation for Northern Ireland and has been using this and the expert advice provided to strike the right balance between ambition and realism. <BR /> <BR />I want to raise another concern about the Bill, which is the duties and functions placed on Departments and other bodies in the Bill. For example, the role envisaged in the Bill for the Executive Office does not appear to fall within its current functions. It is also not clear whether there are adequate resources in the Department to undertake the range of functions envisaged or whether any consultation has taken place with the Executive Office on the potential role that it will have. I ask the Member whether she or her co-sponsors have engaged TEO on that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Put simply and in summary, the 2045 net zero target before us today is not based on any evidence, analysis or feasibility. It goes against the principles of making good, sound legislation. We have independent scientific advice that delivers ambitious targets, yet we disregard the evidence. Given the lack of detail and evidence in the Bill, I feel that it is very much style over substance, but, to be fair, the Bill has neither. I am supportive of climate change action. I have a Bill that is awaiting Executive approval. This private Member's Bill will have negative impacts on all Northern Ireland businesses, but, as I have highlighted, agriculture is disproportionately impacted.”
“I would go so far as to say confidently that, on the basis of the information and evidence that I have received, the Bill before us today does not consider real-world impacts. I question whether the sponsor Member and the co-sponsors of the Bill even know or understand the real-world impacts of the Bill that they have brought before us today. That is on the basis of their complete disregard of the UK CCC's expert independent advice on an effective, appropriate and achievable emissions reduction target for Northern Ireland. Also, I base the assertion on their lack of proper consultation and their failure to produce or attempt to produce any sort of impact assessments, whether regulatory, economic, rural or human rights.”
“<BR /> <BR />The sponsors and drafters of the Bill have indicated that they have plans to advance their consultation activities as the Bill progresses and hope that the consultation process for the Bill can take place during Committee Stage. That is not an acceptable or appropriate way to legislate. The approach of early and inclusive consultation is more likely to lead to better outcomes and greater acceptance in the community — Mr Wells asked me about that — particularly amongst stakeholders who may be adversely affected by the policy. <BR /> <BR />The handling of the Bill before us today has not afforded everyone a fair opportunity to have their say in a timely manner, and, as I said, rushed legislation is generally poor legislation.”
“The agri-food sector is fully behind the need to address global warming and reduce emissions and is already making serious advances. However, it cannot support a Bill for net zero by 2045 because it is not evidence-based. It has not been properly consulted on or assessed for its impact. It does not recognise the importance of our agri-food sector or the people who work in it as a net producer of high-quality food. Many companies and people who work in the agriculture sector have written to me and other MLAs expressing their concerns about the impact of the Bill. They have also written to my Executive colleagues urging them to support the Bill that I have proposed, which awaits approval.”
“On the basis of what has been provided and communicated, it appears that views were limited only to members and supporters of the organisations responsible for developing and bringing the Bill forward. That is not a substitute for proper consultation and giving everyone, including those who will be heavily impacted, the right to comment on proposals before legislation is tabled, debated and rushed through. It is highly unacceptable. Climate change affects everyone, and everyone in Northern Ireland should have their say on what climate change legislation should look like. <BR /> <BR />It is clear to me that, despite what the Bill sponsor indicated to the AERA Committee, there is little or no support for the Bill in the agriculture sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />The proposals in the private Member's Bill contrast with the proposals that I have made to my Executive colleagues, which they are considering. They would result in legislation that sets ambitious and evidence-based targets, is forward-thinking and provides flexibility and scope to amend those targets as a result of emerging evidence and understanding, new advice, new technology and other advancements. Eighty-two per cent is a minimum; it is not a target. It is achievable, unlike what is being put to us at the minute. <BR /> <BR />Despite previous claims by the sponsors of the Bill regarding consultation, there has not been credible evidence presented of a proper consultation having been undertaken on the Bill. While that is permissible, it is a serious oversight.”
“That further highlights that the target in the Bill is based on blind ambition rather than any actual evidence. <BR /> <BR />I share the desire to strive for environmental excellence and sustainability and to tackle the issue of climate change head on, but targets should be ambitious and realistic and based on the most relevant high-quality and independent advice that takes account of the specific factors relevant to Northern Ireland. There is also a restriction in the Bill that prevents the headline 2045 zero emissions target being amended to a date beyond 2045. That does not allow for flexibility to take on board the emerging issues that Mr McAleer referred to or a changing understanding of the evidence and the science, and it is not consistent with climate change legislation elsewhere.”
“It is not backed by evidence and advice from the CCC and is not a view shared by the companies and people who work in the agriculture sector, many of whom have been writing to me and, indeed, other Members to express concerns about the impact of the Bill. The Bill sponsor, in evidence to the Committee, indicated that she hoped that, when the first climate action plan under the Bill was being implemented in several years' time:”
“Motherhood and apple pie. <BR /> <BR />While the Bill contains elements that set out a framework for developing plans and the scrutiny of them, the inclusion of the net zero target effectively means that all sectors, including the agriculture sector, will have to aim for close to net zero emissions by 2045. That will obviously have a significant impact on all sectors, and, as I have stated before, the agriculture sector in particular. This is clearly not just a framework Bill, but some are trying to say it does not really mean what all the agriculture bodies say it means. Let us call it for what it is. <BR /> <BR />The suggestion that the Bill will not harm the agriculture sector is plainly wrong.”
“That could be costly and would risk undermining popular support for transition, and the CCC has said that it could cause increased embedded emissions and unfair distributional impacts, particularly if Northern Ireland targets were out of line with HM Treasury actions to support a just transition to the UK target. <BR /> <BR />When briefing the AERA Committee, the sponsor of the Bill indicated that the Bill would compensate farmers and agri-industry. I see nothing in the Bill that would specifically and effectively deliver on that. Yet another bland and blank promise with no evidence to support it. In recent evidence to the AERA Committee, the Bill's sponsor indicated that the Bill does not set specific targets for sectors or dates and deadlines. She said that it is a framework Bill and:”
“No budget has come from the sponsors of the Bill, but the advice that we have received is that it would cost up to £2·5 billion per annum. <BR /> <BR />As I have stated, the CCC has made it clear that a 2045 net zero target would not represent a balanced pathway for Northern Ireland to reduce emissions. In addition to significant reductions in our agricultural output, there could be perverse outcomes if Northern Ireland were to attempt to go too fast in reducing emissions. For example, going beyond the natural rate of stock turnover would lead to a premature scrapping of assets.”
“There are other reasons, one of which is the number of people who live in rural communities and rely on either oil or coal heating. That is something that seems, again, to be ignored by Members from across the House who allegedly represent rural communities. <BR /> <BR />The memorandum accompanying the private Member's Bill includes a reference to just transition principles and objectives that sectoral plans in the Bill should deliver. That was also highlighted at the Committee briefing by the Bill sponsor as something that would provide protection and support for sectors. From the independent evidence and advice that I have received from the CCC, it is not clear how such a net zero by 2045 target would or, indeed, could deliver a just transition in Northern Ireland for sectors including the agricultural sector and the rural community.”
“The potential additional costs and impacts of achieving a net zero emissions reduction target by 2045 in Northern Ireland, as opposed to the target of at least 82% by 2050 that the CCC has recommended, could, therefore, be extensively more significant. The economic impact on sectors would also be much more substantial than in the rest of the UK. <BR /> <BR />Some may be of the opinion that, because of the agriculture sector in Northern Ireland, we cannot achieve net zero. However, I want to dispel the rhetoric that the target given by the Climate Change Committee of at least 82% is there just to protect agriculture. The CCC's advice is that, even if agricultural methane emissions were removed from the supplementary target, the Northern Ireland 2050 target would still be only a 93% reduction in emissions.”
“That should be the aim of every Member. We should, therefore, not promote actions and pass legislation that would prevent us fulfilling that responsibility. The CCC has also stated that, at present, a net zero target for Northern Ireland set for 2050 or earlier, rather than contributing to extra overall reductions in UK greenhouse gas emissions, could simply shift a greater share of the UK-wide costs of reaching net zero to Northern Ireland. I ask all of you this: who will pay the extra costs that Northern Ireland will have to bear? Are there not better activities that we could spend that money on while the UK still reaches the net zero target?”
“We are well placed to deliver sustainable food. I ask this again: why would we export production when greenhouse gas emissions from UK beef are about half the global average? <BR /> <BR />I reiterate that the CCC has made it clear that one of the main risks of Northern Ireland pushing towards a more ambitious target than it has recommended through making a substantial reduction in output from the livestock sector is that, without a corresponding reduction in the consumption of such produce, we would simply shift emissions overseas and not reduce emissions globally. Climate change is a global challenge, not just a local one. We all need to recognise that. <BR /> <BR />My role is to protect and enhance the environment in a sustainable way and to ensure that the agriculture sector thrives as the custodian of the environment.”
“As the CCC has said, going beyond its recommendation of a target of at least 82% to a target of net zero by 2045 will, most simply, move agri-food production elsewhere for no overall global benefit. That has to be accepted tonight: no overall global benefit. <BR /> <BR />When briefing the Agriculture Committee, the Bill's sponsor indicated, with regard to dairy, that any reduction in what is produced in Northern Ireland for the purposes of reducing emissions could be offset by increasing production in western Europe or New Zealand — simply exporting the problem. I struggle to see how that could have a positive impact on either the dairy sector or global emissions, given the high-quality food production standards that we have in Northern Ireland. It should be noted that 65% of our farmland is best suited to growing grass for animals.”
“OK, right. I need to get on with it and stop taking interventions. <BR /> <BR />To go back to an earlier point, on the basis of the CCC's evidence, the aim of net zero in Northern Ireland by 2050 would mean every sector doing more than it has projected in its balanced pathway projections to UK net zero. On top of that, even a further reduction of 50% to Northern Ireland's livestock would not get us to net zero. To put it simply, to get to net zero by 2045, as proposed by the Bill, the livestock sector would have to shrink dramatically to, basically, a non-existent level, which is unacceptable. Northern Ireland plays an important food production role for the UK, with nearly 50% of Northern Ireland's agri-food produce being consumed in the rest of the UK. The target in the Bill disregards and threatens that important role.”
“The Member has asked a question. I have raised the issue of public consultation. The Bill will affect every person in Northern Ireland, given the costs associated with it and its impact. It will particularly affect the rural community. Therefore, I find the appropriateness of bringing forward legislation without any consultation with that community challenging. Maybe the Member thinks that the rural community does not matter; I happen to think that it does and will defend it, irrespective of the Member's views. <BR /> <BR />I go back to my earlier point. On the basis of the CCC's — I am not getting on very well with this speech, Mr Speaker.”
“Absolutely, because the work was being done on it. We were doing the work to go out to public consultation before the private Member's Bill was brought forward. The wise thing to do is ensure that a Bill goes through the Executive and out to the Northern Ireland public so that it has been done properly, in that it has gone through the public consultation process that has been so neatly ignored by the sponsors of this Bill.”
“For example, even based on the "at least 82%" net emissions reduction by 2050, the CCC has indicated that significant investments are required, such as low-carbon capital investment and the need to scale up to £1 billion to £1·5 billion a year by 2030 in Northern Ireland. Your proposal is to put another £900 million a year on top of that. Those are the sorts of figures that we are talking about: close to £2·5 billion per annum that has to be found out of the Northern Ireland block.”
“<BR /> <BR />Reaching net zero by 2045 would have even greater cost implications, and we have no evidence from this private Member's Bill of what the costs might be, as its co-sponsors have not provided any sort of economic impact assessment. In fact, I have seen no evidence of any impact assessments, such as an economic needs assessment or, indeed, a rural needs assessment, having been carried out on the Bill. Although it may not be fully possible to identify the cost implications of reaching net zero by 2045, there is enough independent expert evidence available about the likely significant impacts of such a target, particularly for the agriculture sector.”
“Ms Bailey did not give any figures, but there are figures there. I pose these questions: where does the £900 million come from? Does it come from the Department of Health, the Department of Education or the Department for Infrastructure? From which Department are you going to take that additional funding? We are going to have to invest heavily in the first instance, and that is a further £900 million per annum that you are going to walk through the Lobbies for very shortly. Before you do it, I repeat the questions: from where is that money coming? From which Department do you want to take it? From which service do you want to take it? That is important.”
“would be both costly and suboptimal. It has identified the costs of reaching net zero by 2050 as being:”
“It is something that we have exported very successfully, and we are doing extremely well, with a low carbon footprint for the number of kilograms of beef and litres of milk produced. The Climate Change Committee letter states:”
“That is exactly why we are signing up to legislation. That is why I have been waiting for six weeks — almost seven weeks now — for that legislation to be allowed through the Executive. Your own colleagues are holding it back. Let us get it out here to debate it. Let us have the legislation that was publicly consulted on put in front of you and ensure that we drive this forward. <BR /> <BR />Not every part of the United Kingdom will achieve 100%. Some areas will have sinks, which will achieve a greater percentage, while other areas will not. We happen to be one of those areas that is engaged in producing high levels of food for the United Kingdom and beyond. We produce around 10% of the United Kingdom's protein.”
“for no overall benefit. If we are shifting it to South America, it is estimated that it will take twice as much carbon to produce a kilogram of beef than it would if the beef were produced in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Why do you want to devastate our rural landscape? Why do you want to devastate our rural fabric? Why do you want to devastate our rural communities and then import beef from an area that is producing it with twice as much carbon going into the atmosphere as would go in if we produced it in Northern Ireland? I will give way to anybody who wishes to answer that.”
“— where even a reduction of more than 50% in livestock numbers would not get us to net zero —”
“I have listened to the same today. I agree with your Sinn Féin colleague Mr Carthy, who recognises the damage that you are doing to rural communities, particularly hill farmers. Those in marginalised lands will face the harshest cuts as a consequence of what you are backing and going into the Lobby behind me to support. <BR /> <BR />Contrary to what the proposer of the Bill suggested to the AERA Committee in a recent briefing, the CCC is clear that there is no credible pathway at this time for net zero by 2050 in Northern Ireland and that it cannot recommend such a target for Northern Ireland. It has advised that reaching net zero in 2050 would require one or both of two conditions, one being:”
“That is what your own colleague says about what you are pressing today. He said:”
“Maybe the Member should tell his Sinn Féin colleague Matt Carthy about his views. He said that if:”
“I stand here as a defender of the hill farmers of the Sperrins and the Antrim plateau, which Sinn Féin does not seem to care about any more. Contrary to what the proposer of the Bill suggested —.”
“He says that there is a lack of action, but my Department has gone through a full public consultation process — this Bill has not — and engaged with the public and gone through processes correctly. When I was asked to produce the Bill in three months, I said that it was impossible. It was impossible for my Department to do that because at least eight or 12 weeks is normally given for public consultation. What was being asked of me last year was not achievable. I indicated that it was not achievable. There is a saying that rushed legislation is bad legislation. That is what we are dealing with today: rushed legislation, without proper public consultation. It has, therefore, written off the rural community. <BR /> <BR />I stand here as a defender of the rural community.”
“I have to deal with the misleading information that the Member has just given.”
“I look at Members across the Chamber who represent Mid Ulster, South Antrim, North Antrim, West Tyrone, East Londonderry, South Down and other areas. Do they really want a devastated rural community where tens of thousands of households lose their source of income, the food that goes on their table and the roof that goes over their head because their jobs have been removed from them? Is that what Mr McGuigan wants?”
“We can move forward significantly on transport and energy. However, the high production rate in agri-food in Northern Ireland makes 100% much more challenging. For Northern Ireland to reach a net emissions reduction target of at least 82%, it needs to have a percentage reduction greater than that required in the rest of the UK to reach net zero. For example, Scotland is almost halfway to net zero emissions, having had a 45% reduction at 2018. Northern Ireland, meanwhile, is under a quarter of the way to reaching a reduction of at least 82%, having had only a 20% reduction at 2018. <BR /> <BR />A target reduction of at least 82% in no way lacks ambition. It is easier to move up towards 100% than to be locked into 100% and unable to move anywhere. The outcome of that would be the devastation of our rural communities.”
“OK, he does not want to. <BR /> <BR />First, the CCC has categorically stated that a net zero target by 2050 for Northern Ireland that covers all greenhouse gases cannot credibly be set at this time, let alone by 2045, as proposed in the private Member's Bill. The CCC has advised, on the basis of its evidence and analysis, that a net greenhouse gas emissions reduction target of at least 82% is an appropriate and fair contribution to a balanced pathway to a UK net zero target that aligns with the UK commitment to the Paris agreement. <BR /> <BR />We, as one country, the United Kingdom, can achieve 100% net zero. Northern Ireland, because it is a major provider of protein for people's food in the United Kingdom, does not have to meet the same target as the rest of the United Kingdom.”
“What I can confirm is the independent, science-based evidence that has been provided to my Department. If the Member wants me to ignore independent scientific advice, he should stand up and say so.”
“I want them to take into account the lack of evidence provided by the sponsor and drafters of the Bill; the existing and publicly available expert and independent evidence and advice from the UK Climate Change Committee; my consideration of responses to a proper consultation that my Department and I carried out on climate change Bill policy proposals for Northern Ireland; and my consideration of the voices of those who have contacted me and many Members in recent weeks and who would be most deeply and negatively impacted on by a target of net zero emissions by 2045, a target for which there is such a lack of evidence.”
“I hope that all Members will pay heed and give serious consideration to what I have to say regarding my concerns about a Bill that would be very damaging to Northern Ireland. It is a view that evidence supports. I am not simply asking Members to take my word.”
“Is that really the result that you want for the people of Northern Ireland whom you represent?”
“It is so far removed from the independent expert advice and evidence that I cannot support it. Based on the evidence that I have received and shared widely, a target of net zero by 2045 would be extremely detrimental to our economy without actually reducing global greenhouse gas emissions. It would simply shift our emissions elsewhere. Ultimately, that would mean shifting our food production to those areas that are responsible for cutting down rainforests, which are the very lungs of the earth.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also want to highlight one of the reasons why, compared with the rest of the UK, we did not have a climate change Bill before now. It is because the institutions were collapsed for three years by Sinn Féin and important work like this was not taken forward. People should not forget that and the fact that Sinn Féin Members put everything else on the slow burner because of their issues. <BR /> <BR />I have deep concerns about the Bill that has been brought before us today. Given those serious concerns, I cannot support it, as I believe that it would seriously damage Northern Ireland. I have many concerns about the Bill, but I will outline the main concerns today, which each and every one of us should consider. <BR /> <BR />My first concern is the extremely important issue of the target that has been set in the Bill.”
“I want to begin by highlighting, once more, that I have developed policy proposals for a balanced and evidence-based climate change Bill, but I have not been able to discuss them at the Executive, despite the fact that I have been seeking to get them on the agenda since 24 March. Once the proposals are tabled at the Executive and agreement is secured to proceed, I can quickly move to introduce the right climate change legislation for Northern Ireland, which delivers on the New Decade, New Approach commitments. I am disappointed that, despite the New Decade, New Approach agreement commitment that we would tackle climate change, I have not been able to get my proposals tabled for discussion. Those proposals have gone through due process and public consultation, which this Bill has not.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. One of the issues of most concern to me — it should be shared by the Assembly — is that, if we go down this route and decide that we do not need beef production and dairy production, we will have to get those products elsewhere. I believe that the Member indicated in Committee that we could get them from western Europe and New Zealand, but maybe the Member has not checked her facts and acknowledged that western European production of beef and dairy products has a higher carbon footprint per kilogram than we have in the United Kingdom. Instead of reducing carbon emissions, the Bill, perversely, is potentially raising them by simply diverting the problem, exporting the problem elsewhere and saying, "Haven't we done well, guv?".”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She might have moved on from the Ministers, which is why I asked her to do so. I have corresponded with the Minister for Infrastructure — indeed, I have spoken to her on at least two occasions separately from that — about trying to press ahead with getting more charging points for electric cars. Of course, electric cars are much more widely available now, and 45% of our electricity is produced from renewable sources. Utilising that energy for electric cars would be a superb thing to do. Can the Member indicate whether she includes the Infrastructure Minister and whether she will press her to accelerate the availability of charging points throughout Northern Ireland, thereby encouraging investment in electric vehicles by the general public?”