Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“I thank Chris for his service to the people of East Belfast and to the wider education system in Northern Ireland. I wish him and his family all the best as they move ahead. He is voluntarily stepping away from the Assembly, and that is not a choice that everybody gets to make. I wish him all the best for the future. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Bill to the House.”
“Education is very much at the heart of our society. It is one of the most critical things in itself but also because of the extent to which it shapes a new generation and provides it with opportunities. To send a signal to that new generation that it is all right for society to have discrimination at the heart of the structure for the appointment of teachers is fundamentally wrong. We should send a signal that selection for employment is based on merit. The legislation is therefore a useful and important step forward. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I wish my old sparring partner Chris Lyttle all the best. At times, we have not seen precisely eye to eye on every issue, but many of our exchanges about education have shown that we both have an undoubted passion for it.”
“The exemption of teachers from the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 is an anachronism that, many if not all of us will agree, should have been swept away years ago. It is important that we take that step today, however.”
“I, too, support the Bill. Dealing with the issue of fair employment in the teaching profession is an important step forward; the Bill represents a positive step. As Diane Dodds highlighted, it is important that we see it not as a single action but as part of a wider process. There needs to be a review to say that this is the first step forward, but there is further work to be done in a future mandate to deal with all the issues concerning this.”
“Today, we can add our voices to that message in a tangible way by passing the legislation and saying not simply that domestic abuse has to stop but that, where it happens, we will be there to support the victims and meet their needs. I commend the Bill to the House and believe that it will receive support across the Chamber.”
“That means that the focus will remain on the issue, and further information will have to be brought back as we refine the detail. That will be critical in ensuring that what we have in place for those who suffer domestic abuse is fit for purpose and can protect them. <BR /> <BR />Finally, as well as the specific contents of the Bill, this is about the message and the signal that the Bill sends. The Committee was certainly unified on the issue, and I think that the House is unified on the issue. As a society, as an Assembly and as legislators, we want to send out a clear, single and unambiguous message that domestic abuse is wrong and evil, that it is never justified; and that it must stop.”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved. That should never be our attitude to legislation. I have used this phrase before: legislation should be a comma rather than a full stop. In trying to ensure that the Bill gets on the statute books, I think that the Bill sponsor has largely acknowledged that, when it comes to the examination of the guidance that will be needed, a level of detail is required that simply could not be provided in primary legislation. There are direct requirements in the Bill for regulations.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the many employers who take the issue seriously and who have been proactive in making provision for it. The advantage of the Bill is that it takes that good practice and ensures that, whoever suffers domestic abuse, there is equality of provision and they have a statutory right. Overwhelmingly, as has been indicated, the victims are female, but we should remember that there are victims of domestic abuse who are male. Irrespective of gender, it is important that that protection and those rights are put in place as well.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors? Sometimes, one of the biggest problems with domestic abuse is the lack of transparency and knowledge of it. We are sometimes aware of families and relationships where clear problems have been brought to the police, but in how many cases have we simply no idea of what is happening behind closed doors? It is critical, in looking at this, that we offer the maximum support to those who suffer domestic abuse. As the sponsor indicated, we should look at where, in education and prevention, we can take action to combat domestic abuse.”
“There is the detail that is in the Bill, and there is the message that the passage of the Bill sends. I hope that Members will take it in the right spirit if I say that, somewhat ironically, I wish that this was a Bill that we did not have to have. I wish that, even when it receives Royal Assent, it never has to be used, and I am sure that the Bill sponsor will concur with me. Domestic abuse is evil. If we could reach the point in our society where there was no domestic abuse at all, it would be a miraculous and beneficial day for all of us. Sadly, however, that is not the society that we live in. <BR /> <BR />There has been much debate about the restrictions that were put in place during the pandemic.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it. I commend all the hard work of Assembly officials, not least the Committee officials, in progressing the Bill and all those who gave evidence when we on the Committee were scrutinising it. <BR /> <BR />I give particular commendation and support to those who have been victims of domestic violence who were involved either directly in the passage of the Bill or outside it. They took the courageous step of sharing their experiences and raising their voices to make sure that what has happened to them should not happen to others. <BR /> <BR />The Bill has two levels of significance.”
“No female, irrespective of their location in Northern Ireland or whether they are in full-time education, are older and in employment or are involved in a range of activities, be that sport or whatever else, should be denied the opportunity to reach their full potential because of period poverty or a lack of period dignity. <BR /> <BR />This is a good legacy of the Assembly. I welcome the Final Stage. I look forward to the Bill receiving Royal Assent and being implemented, and I commend the Member, once again.”
“They are now part of the law of the land, rather than being simply down to the good wishes and simple actions of individual Ministers. We all know that, at times, Ministers can change and that, sometimes, opinions and priorities can change, but the Bill enshrines it in legislation, which means that it covers the issues and gives a guarantee into the future. <BR /> <BR />Secondly and critically, the Bill ensures that all the actions that have been taken, particularly in education, including higher and further education, and in other sectors will be carried out in a comprehensive fashion and applied across the board.”
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it. The then Economy Minister, Diane Dodds, was able to ensure that it was extended to further and higher education. Through the passage of this Bill, in particular, there has been good cooperation across Departments, particularly through the Minister for Communities, in coordinating those efforts. <BR /> <BR />There has been that important step change, but the Bill takes us a further step forward on at least two grounds. First, the various schemes that were put in place, particularly by Education, are now on a statutory footing.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way. <BR /> <BR />Mention has been made of various campaigners. I want to put on record one person and one group. When I was Education Minister, there was a campaign on period poverty from Ellie Massey and a group of classmates from Strathearn School who pushed hard on the issue. They were able to shine a focus on the issue. I was able to bring a proposal to the Executive to introduce a pilot scheme on period poverty, and that was unanimously and enthusiastically supported by the Executive.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage. He is to be commended for bringing the legislation forward. <BR /> <BR />Members across the Chamber have seen and know the problems that are created by period poverty and a lack of period dignity, and we know of the issues around trying to remove the stigma around periods. That has been recognised by all parties — Executive and non-Executive — and, over the past few years, we have seen a positive step change in trying to tackle the issues. Today marks the culmination of those actions.”
“Those of us who attended the excellent presentation today by representatives of the Open University will know the great significance of the higher education sector in Northern Ireland and, indeed, the wider United Kingdom. Will the Minister outline the implications for the higher education sector if the draft Budget that has been proposed by Minister Murphy were to go through unchanged?”
“Unfortunately, it will not be the cure for every problem out there and will not prevent or even detect every case of domestic abuse, but, if it helps to shine a greater light on the issue and helps in a range of situations, that is helpful. I commend the regulations to the House.”
“When children were out of school and the doors were closed in a range of domestic settings, we did not know what was happening behind those closed doors. We did not have the same level of access to what domestic abuse might be happening. One of the gravest concerns for many of us was that, while there was an awareness previously of a range of situations and some monitoring could be carried out, it was simply assumed that everything was all right, but terrible things were happening in many situations. I very much welcome the progressive move to have another tool to tackle domestic abuse through the school system and that level of cooperation. This is a good example of cross-departmental and cross-sectoral working to bring something forward.”
“I rise to speak briefly and to welcome the regulations before us. The cooperation that we have seen between Justice and Education, the justice agencies and, indeed, the school system on the successful pilot in the Newry area has enabled the regulations to be rolled out, and that is a good sign. For all of us, when faced with the consequences of lockdown, particularly focusing on our children, there were grave concerns about many of the implications, one of which was the impact on the mental health of families. The impact of isolation on young people and the elderly was another concern. <BR /> <BR />A lot of good work was done by the Youth Service, the PSNI and others in trying to reach out.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. I join him in his strong words of condemnation of the disgraceful actions of P&O towards its staff. He has touched on the exploration of the legal options for action that can be taken against P&O. What examination has there been to ensure that this is not something that is used by other employers or could happen again in another sphere of employment law?”
“As we move ahead on abuse of trust, action clearly has to be grounded in evidence, but we need to be proactive in trying to cover those situations. That is why it is critical that we have such review. <BR /> <BR />This is a very welcome day, but an element of work in progress remains. We are in the process of making improvements; let us bank the improvements that we have made but keep vigilant to ensure that we bear down to the maximum extent on those involved in that range of criminal activities. Critically, it is on the protection of victims and potential victims that we must always remain focused.”
“The Member for North Down Miss Woods raised that issue on a number of occasions. While I suspect that the Committee, working purely on its own merits, would have gone further, we have reached a situation in which the issue is under robust review. We have the coverage in the legislation, particularly of religious organisations and sporting organisations, but it is critical that the scope of the Bill is proactively kept under review. <BR /> <BR />There is, to some extent, a lack of logic in saying that, for example, if a youth organisation meets in a church hall, it is potentially covered as part of the church, yet the same youth organisation, if it is not linked with the church but uses the local community centre, is not covered. There is no reason why abuse in both those situations should not be directly covered.”
“The point that I was making is that for some of the offences — be it upskirting, downblousing or cyber-flashing — 20 or 30 years ago, the use of technology, whether or not it was conceived, would not have been possible for, or within the reach of, many people. <BR /> <BR />My point is that we have made important steps in the Bill in trying to cover that situation, but we must not assume that, particularly when it comes to technology, sexual exploitation and sexual abuse, the world stands still. Consequently, although we have taken action today, we need to be vigilant as we move ahead in the months and years to come, so that, where we need to update and to cover new avenues of crime, we do so. <BR /> <BR />My final point about seeing this as a process relates specifically to potential abuse of trust situations, which have been mentioned.”
“I will be keen to hear what the Minister has to say. The Bill is multifaceted and touches on a range of victims. There is the vulnerability to exploitation of, for example, those people coming from Ukraine who are seeking sanctuary. There are also those who visit this country and many among our indigenous population, including children, who need to be protected. <BR /> <BR />Ms Bradley made a very good point about those being abused through imagery. Cyber-flashing, upskirting and downblousing, for instance, will now be criminal offences and cannot simply be laughed off as things that a group of lads do or whatever. It is criminally wrong, and a clear message needs to go out.”
“For example, on issues of sexual exploitation, the level of guidance that is given, the level of training that is provided and the level of review that is undertaken will be critical. <BR /> <BR />The Bill, and particularly some of the new offences in it, has been driven by a changing society in which those engaged in these evils find new ways to exploit and abuse others.”
“There is always the danger that we, as legislator, see a problem, see legislation as the solution and, once we have delivered that legislation, say, "That is it out of the way; we can put it up on the shelf and forget about it". Legislation should not be the end of a process; it is part of a process. It is, if you like, a comma rather than a full stop. Nowhere is that more true, for a number of reasons, than in the Bill that is in front of us. <BR /> <BR />There has been mention of some of the amendments that were made to, and provisions that have been put into, the Bill concerning implementation. It is not simply a document to sit on the shelf; it is about how it is delivered on the ground, in practice.”
“Where there is a need for the Department to give support beyond the 12 months, that can be done. <BR /> <BR />One of the proudest moments in the House came a number of years ago, when my friend and colleague Lord Morrow's Bill on human trafficking was passed. That was critical in the approach that we take to human beings. Northern Ireland is quite often seen to be in catch-up mode, but we led the way through that Bill. Today, we lead the way again on the issue of human trafficking. That is important. <BR /> <BR />The next point, which relates to human trafficking but also other aspects, is not to see this as a final position.”
“As Sinéad Bradley and Robin Newton said, human trafficking is not a faraway problem in a distant land that has nothing to do with us. Very sadly, it is at the heart of our community. Whether it is through the exploitation of children or of migrant workers or sex trafficking, it exists behind the closed doors of houses in our streets in our cities, our towns and our villages. Vigilance and action against that is critical. That is why the progress of the Bill has been very important. <BR /> <BR />As has been mentioned, it is very important that, from a legislative point of view, we have given guaranteed support of up to 12 months. That will help to empower and equip victims of human trafficking and help them to rebuild their lives. The position agreed by the Assembly is not to cap that.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is a good day, but it is also a critical day for all those who have been victims. Whether they are victims of sexual violence, of exploitation, of abuse of trust, of trafficking or, indeed, a combination of all of those things, today is their day and represents vital progress. <BR /> <BR />I do not want to reiterate a lot of what has been said, but I will touch on two points, starting with the issue of trafficking. Uppermost in our minds in recent weeks has been the vulnerability of innocent people who are suffering at the hands of evil. Often, those people are having to cross jurisdictions to seek sanctuary. We have seen that with Ukraine in particular, and that should focus our minds on the issue of human trafficking.”
“I join with others in welcoming the legislation. I also wish the Minister a swift and full recovery, particularly ahead of the election. I suspect that today we got a little flavour of the canvassing material that she will be using: we got a few lines of that without having to move to East Belfast. I sincerely wish her a full recovery. <BR /> <BR />I join with other Members in thanking all of those who have contributed to the Bill reaching this point. As a member of the Committee since June of last year, I particularly thank the Committee staff, who have been so diligent in helping us to bring the legislation to this point. Also, I thank those who contributed by making submissions to the Committee. I join with others in welcoming the representatives of CARE NI, who have been vigilant, particularly on the issues of human trafficking.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I appreciate the point that he made about that level of reconciliation and conciliation, where possible. Does the Member agree that there is a danger in moving, for instance, from a seven-day notice period to a two-day notice period, because that is much more likely to promote a spirit of confrontation rather than giving space for problems to be worked out between employer and employees?”
“At times, that left some workers with a strong feeling of intimidation or a feeling that they could not be seen to take an opposite view from that of their fellow workers. It strikes me that all workers should be treated similarly. Therefore, it is right that we have a standardised method by which decisions are taken on industrial action. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that it is probably unusual to reject a Bill at Second Stage, but, fundamentally, by the Bill sponsor's own admission, the Bill is designed to take us back in time to the 1970s. Instead of looking backwards on industrial relations, we should look towards an era of much more harmonious relations. We should look forward not backwards. If the House endorses Mr Carroll's Bill today, we will take a damaging retrograde step and move back in time rather than forward.”
“Surely, we should aim for a situation in which there is harmony and compromise on both sides to reach agreement. Therefore, it strikes me that a two-day notice period will cut out any realistic prospect of discussions or negotiations ahead of a ballot taking place. <BR /> <BR />Moving away from a secret vote that is done by way of postal ballot to, for instance, some form of workplace vote is also a retrograde step. Everybody should be on a level playing field, and a postal ballot — a secret ballot of members — is the appropriate way to do things. I do not believe that what is proposed necessarily follows this, but we saw the big workplace votes in the 1970s with a mass gathering of the workforce, a show of hands and a result being declared.”
“We know that industrial disputes in the public sector and, sometimes, in the private sector have a strong knock-on effect on other people. For example, if a strike involves a group of transport workers, it will impact on how some people get to and from their work, as they may want to make alternative arrangements. To have a strike that simply appears within a matter of days is unfair to those people as well. <BR /> <BR />Most importantly, though, if we are to have good industrial relations, seven days is an appropriate period because it gives space to the trade unions, the workforce and the employers and gives them a certain period within which notice has been given. That provides an opportunity for focused discussions to resolve the issue and provides a cooling-off period in which those detailed discussions can take place.”
“It provides a direct safeguard regarding any industrial action. Surely that level of communication is a good thing. I can understand how, for some trade unions, that might be an irritation, but it stretches things beyond credibility to say that supplying an employer with a sample ballot paper creates such an onerous burden on any workforce or trade union that it renders a change in the law necessary. <BR /> <BR />The more substantial element is, perhaps, the period of notice, and there are a couple of reasons why. If ballots are to be properly organised and fair and if discussion is to take place ahead of any ballot, cutting the period of notice down from seven days to two days is a retrograde step. It is also a retrograde step for other reasons.”
“By their nature, strikes should be about pay and conditions. Whether they are in the public or the private sector, they should be about what directly impacts on those workers. They should not be political. At times and not necessarily with the support of members, we have seen attempts to pile pressure on government or employers, and workers have taken action that was unconnected with their conditions. We should not go back to the days of political strikes. It is right that there is the right to take industrial action, but we should not widen that to political strikes. <BR /> <BR />On clause 2, perhaps the more minor aspect is the issue of an employer getting a sample ballot paper. That seems to be a reasonably sensible approach that is simply about giving assurance that everything is very much on the level.”
“Similarly, although I am sure that the Member probably has greater knowledge of this than me, I am not aware of whether there is a major problem with unfair dismissal cases being taken as a result of involvement in strikes. I am happy to keep an open mind about that. From the point of view of industrial relations, however, there is enough in the Bill that makes it dangerous enough for the House to reject, and I can think of three or four aspects that I want to highlight briefly. <BR /> <BR />The first of those is the secondary action in clause 1, which is one of its central cruxes. There is a good reason why secondary action is outlawed. The right way for industrial action to take place is that it should be about the rights of the workers who are directly affected by their industrial situation.”
“There may be an argument that, historically, some of the events of the 1970s played into the hands of a Conservative Government or a Margaret Thatcher. Nevertheless, it was a dark period in industrial relations, and it is not one that I would like to see us dragged back to. There is very much a retro feel to the Bill. <BR /> <BR />There are some aspects of the Bill that I do not have a problem with. For example, I do not have an ideological view about what the trigger point for collective bargaining should be or whether it should be 21, five or a different figure. I do not have a doctrinaire view of where that should be set.”
“<BR /> <BR />When I say that the Bill has a retro feel that would bring us back to the 1970s, I mean that, looking at it, I feel a bit like a character in 'Life on Mars' and have suddenly woken up in the mid-1970s. To be fair to Mr Carroll, he is entirely honest about his intentions and the time frame that he sees in rolling back any changes to trade union legislation to a pre-1979 level. To his credit, he is absolutely clear-cut and honest about that, and I give him credit for it. However, I am old enough to remember the 1970s. It was a period of poor industrial relations, when people suffered greatly because of a level of disharmony in society that, in many ways, made some of the changes inevitable.”
“I will keep my remarks relatively short. I appreciate the passion that Mr Carroll has brought to the Bill, and I know that he has a strong commitment to it. However, given where we are in the mandate — we are at Second Stage at the beginning of March — there is a slightly moot quality to some of the debate, because everyone in the House knows that the Bill will not reach the statute books or become law. <BR /> <BR />Down the years, many important achievements have been brought about by trade unionists for their workers and, broadly, for society as a whole. However, looking at the Bill, I think that there is a grave danger that, if it were to proceed, it would drag us back retrospectively to the 1970s. I appreciate that Mr Carroll would certainly self-identify as a Connollyite, but there is a touch of Scargillism about the Bill.”
“I would be interested to hear whether there is any further logic or explanation that the Member could give in relation to that requirement.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Mr Carroll has moved on from the point on which I wanted clarification. Earlier, he said that one of the impacts of clause 2 — it is stated in the memorandum as well — is that it would remove the requirement, before industrial action, for a sample ballot paper to be provided to the employer. I appreciate the point that the Member made about wanting to remove steps that are seen to be too onerous for a trade union. I understand the logic in that. However, if there were to be such a situation, clearly there would have to be some form of ballot, and, depending on the size of the workforce, that could involve hundreds or thousands of ballot papers. I am not sure of the logic that producing an additional ballot paper that can be given to an employer as a sample is too onerous for unions.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I assume that the Minister is referring to me. I am a Member for Strangford, not North Down.”
“I appreciate that the Minister is struggling, and maybe I can help her with that. The point is this: why are we putting in courts artificial barriers that do not apply in any other part of life? We are in a situation where those restrictions have been removed, and we need to see a full resumption of the quality of justice. This is a retrograde step that creates barriers and does not provide the best opportunity to deliver that full quality of justice. Therefore, it is the wrong step at the wrong time. We have moved on, and it is time for the courts to move on and go back to the provision that has been put in place, so that we can ensure that everyone can get full access to and, indeed, the fullest quality of our justice system.”
“It has been said about many cases that solicitors' firms encourage the solicitor and the client to huddle around the same Zoom call in the solicitor's office.”
“We are not in the same position that we were in in November or January, and, in the last number of weeks, the Health Minister has effectively removed all the restrictions that were in place. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that we are already creating anomalies. I can think of one particular courthouse in Northern Ireland — I am sure that the Committee Chair will be very familiar with it — where it has been custom and practice that, whatever happens in the courthouse, members of the legal profession and clients will quite often decant to a hotel right beside the courthouse. It is bizarre to say that you can have as many people as you want gathered round the table of a cafe or restaurant to discuss issues, but, once you cross the threshold of the courts of justice, that is prevented. That seems to me to be nonsense.”
“I am not aware of the figures, but it is about the quality of the justice. It is about the opportunity to have direct interaction in court between the lawyer and the client. It will mean that the potential quality of that detailed level of discussion and interaction that all of us get from a one-to-one, face-to-face meeting with someone is reduced. That is the experience that has been relayed to me by a range of lawyers. We need to take the issue seriously. <BR /> <BR />Thankfully, as we move away from the situation that we were in even in November when the consultation took place, there was, by definition, limited action on the consultation, as has been highlighted.”
“I will give way in a moment. The Committee received evidence a number of weeks ago about some of the potential restrictions, which, I freely admit, are not of the Minister's making, around the provision of legal aid, which could act as a barrier to younger members of the profession. There is a danger that senior members are hoovering up that work.”
“There can also be problems in the courts when they depend on technology that may or may not be working absolutely perfectly, which creates a barrier between the lawyer and their client. Again, it affects the quality of justice, which might sometimes be quite minor, but we have to take it seriously. <BR /> <BR />The current provision is for hubs to Zoom in and Zoom out of video links. That acts as a barrier and has an impact on younger members of the legal profession. Those who are involved and have a long-standing practice can use video links much more effectively and do a range of remote cases, but it effectively acts as a barrier to entry into the profession and for people to succeed in that. <BR /> <BR />There is a concern already —”