Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“From that point of view, when it comes to what is done directly in schools, it is not always about what the individual does or risks through the multiple use of something; it is about the risk of cross-contamination through something being used by a number of people. Simple steps of that nature can be taken: parents can give their child a single container, and the child can drink what has been supplied in that container as well as reusing it when accessing water at school. I know that many Members and people in other walks of life bring a single container with them, for instance, so that, in an environmental way, they are able to reuse that product. It is about thinking in that intelligent way. Partnership is needed between what happens directly in schools and what parents are able to do themselves.”
“As I said, the position is that some action has been taken, and there is engagement with the EA and schools. There is also a role for all of us to play as individuals. There are complications. You mentioned face coverings, for example, and a limited amount can be done directly in connection with how they are disposed of. In the COVID situation, one of the drivers in the increased use of plastics — this is where there is a critical role for parents and families — is that plastics cannot be reused because of the risk of child to child cross-contamination. However, there is an opportunity. Let us take bottled water and its packaging as one example. I encourage parents who are supplying drinks for children to bring into school to use a single receptacle that can be used multiple times by one child.”
“The resources deployed and decisions made in relation to school safety and reduction in the risk of infection are based on the latest ongoing and continuously updated advice from the Northern Ireland Public Health Agency (PHA) to minimise or eliminate the spread of COVID-19 between and within the home and school settings.”
“I thank the Member for her question. While my Department and the Education Authority (EA) have taken action over a number of years to reduce the amount of single-use plastic in schools, the current pandemic has had two impacts: no development or progression of any further work has been possible; and it has led to a greater use of disposable products in order to minimise the risk of transmission. <BR /> <BR />The Education Authority recognises this issue and is conscious of the impact of single-use plastics in the school environment. The measures currently being taken under the Education Restart programme are, I stress, of a temporary and emergency nature.”
“I do not want to see anybody discriminated against, so, as part of a wider range of things, that will probably be looked at. <BR /> <BR />As Members can appreciate, particularly as a result of COVID, issues that normally might have been a little ahead in the agenda have probably been backed up to an extent. It is therefore a question of working through a wide range of issues, but I will be keen to look at the level of nursery provision that there will be.”
“I have perhaps been accused of being more Orwellian than Arellian in my approach to things. <BR /> <BR />It is probably wrong for me to comment on an individual school without having the information. We will look into the wider situation at the nursery school. Traditionally, a slightly different policy approach has been taken for preschool that has suggested that numbers are a lot tighter. It has also sometimes been the case that, on the broader preschool side of things, there will be a restriction on the numbers that can be in a preschool that is not necessarily the case for primary and post-primary schools, because of restrictions on what numbers can be fitted in safely. As Minister, however, I am certainly happy to look into the situation at the nursery school.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is a little bit of a false dichotomy to say that a particular resource comes from a certain budget, be it the from Department of Education's, the EA's or an individual school's, because, ultimately, the money comes out of the system as a whole. It is therefore wrong of us to draw that level of false division. There is a need for resources to be supplied, and the health and safety of our pupils and staff will be the number-one priority. That is why, when additional money was being sought from the Executive in the past couple of weeks, PPE, including hand sanitiser, soap and other materials, was highest in the ranked order of priority in our bid to the Executive.”
“What I will say in response to that is twofold. First, the Executive have agreed an overall package that goes beyond the £42 million. It covers cleaning materials and PPE beyond the period of the situation as is but also meets the assessed needs for the rest of the financial year. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, on the broader issue of additional overtime and cleaning, within the overall provision, a certain amount has been made available to schools for them to have the flexibility to spend the money themselves to meet additional pressures as they see fit. To some extent, what has been put in place will carry us only so far. At later stages, there will probably be a need for additional support from the Executive, and I will be making that clear when bidding for that money.”
“It is also the case that, through my working alongside the Executive, further support has been made available since that announcement to ensure that, projecting into the future, provision of hand sanitisers is the Department's number-one priority. That has been accepted by the Executive as a whole, and we will see support emerging for that. <BR /> <BR />We have seen particular incidents happen. There have been occasions on which schools have either been closed for a period or partially closed for a deep clean, and that has been facilitated as well.”
“The Member raises a very valid point. With a lot of things related to COVID, we tend to focus in on some issues and almost pass by others. The issues around hygiene, good hand sanitisation and ensuring that schools are cleaned, are critical. As part of that, the overall package that the Executive agreed — and I think that there have been indications that it is not the final position — of £42 million support for the restart of schools, included money specifically for additional cleaning, and also in the wider context, for PPE. When people think of PPE, they think of face coverings and gloves, but the vast bulk of the money that is earmarked for PPE is for cleaning materials and hand sanitiser.”
“That perhaps puts it in context. <BR /> <BR />I have no desire to be punitive towards parents. It is understandable that some parents will have a strong reaction. As with a number of issues, and judging by the correspondence that I get, there will be a number of parents that will be at opposite ends of the spectrum on some of these issues, while the vast majority are probably relatively silent in the middle.”
“There is a broad duty to educate young people, and I want to see that duty fulfilled. Neither the Department nor I — or anybody else — want to be punitive. It is about a pastoral way of working alongside parents. Clearly, there is a requirement that if a child is registered with a school, that that child should attend, but I think that, given the circumstances, there will be a sympathetic and understanding approach taken. Sometimes, the message to parents will have to be that the safest place for their child is in school, with a few exceptions if there are medical complaints. <BR /> <BR />We do have to give an indication, particularly to parents, that the risks to children in the pandemic are extremely low. Statistically, there is a greater risk of a child having an accident and injuring themself, or even dying, at home.”
“<BR /> <BR />Perhaps understandably, one of the issues at the very start of schools resuming was a large volume of calls from parents to the Public Health Agency with concerns, for example, about whether their child needed a test. On the first day, I think in well over 90% of those calls, no test was needed. <BR /> <BR />It is about trying to ensure that parents have the maximum amount of information and communication.”
“I will not comment on whether he was just keen to get rid of his family or whether he was just keen to see schools resuming. It is undoubtedly the case that if you look at attendance in the first week or two of the school term, the figures are, broadly speaking, very comparable to what they would normally be. That would suggest that overall the number of parents who feel that they have to hold back their children is fairly minimal. <BR /> <BR />One of the major challenges that is out there is to ensure that parents have the most up-to-date and precise information. Working with the Public Health Agency, we produced a very simple flowchart that provides information for parents on what to do in particular circumstances, and that has been sent out through schools.”
“There is a small range of children that have very specific medical conditions. The EA and ourselves will be working with them to ensure that resources and online learning can be put in place. There are two aspects to this. The level of return to school that we saw maybe showed that, in Northern Ireland, we took advantage of taking that little bit longer to put things in place. For example, what we saw in other jurisdictions that returned to school at an earlier stage, was that they had a large percentage of parents and children staying away. <BR /> <BR />The figures for Northern Ireland would suggest a willingness of parents for their children to be there. I think I saw the Member's colleague expressing great joy with his own family getting in.”
“Subject to not being barred from having a meeting, I would be more than happy to have one.”
“I am happy to meet whoever. I cannot comment on any particular aspect of any proposal. If there are solutions, either in Lurgan or the wider Craigavon context, it would be wrong of me to comment on their merits. It is important that all children get the best possible opportunities. The current position with Lurgan has not been helpful in that regard. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that there are different views on the issue. There is a need to bring as much certainty as possible to it. I do not have any problem, in principle, with meeting whoever. I would need to check on the propriety of any meeting, because I know that, when a development proposal process is initiated, there is a period when the Minister can meet various individuals and receive representations, for example, and there are periods when the Minister is barred from doing that.”
“The EA, in conjunction with the Controlled Schools Support Council, met the principal and board of governors at the end of August with regard to the updated case for change, and will seek approval to rerun the pre-publication consultation on what has been put forward. <BR /> <BR />I am somewhat constrained in giving an answer because any development proposal will ultimately come back to the Department and to me as the final legal arbiter. Obviously, I am then constrained and cannot make any comment that is either favourable or negative towards any development proposal without potentially prejudicing the process.”
“Yes, if the Member will give me a minute or so. I have had the opportunity, both when I was Minister previously and in the interim, to visit the Lurgan campus of Craigavon Senior High School. I am entirely aware of some safeguarding issues there and also of the physical state of building. <BR /> <BR />As the Member will be aware, a development proposal was made which was then, effectively, stopped by way of a court case. That has meant that matters have had to go back to a previous situation. As such, as I understand it, the EA has agreed a range of options. It will update a draft case for change consultation document which reflects the judicial review ruling. That has been completed. EA officers will update the data that is contained in the draft case for change.”
“I think that time is, effectively, gone. On all three points, it is important that there is that level of support. That is why there is separate funding for the engage programme, which will deal with academic catch-up, and it was important that that was not done simply as an exercise in and of itself, but that specific money was directed towards well-being. For all of us, being able to establish the impact on well-being of COVID's interruption to education — even today, there is probably not an absolutely clear picture —.”
“I believe that, with some support from our Health colleagues, we will be able to make that a slightly bigger picture in connection with that, so two streams of money will be made available. One will probably go to particular projects that will support the school sector, and one is likely to be directly allocated to schools for them to decide where they feel it is best to deploy that resource and to use their knowledge on the ground.”
“I am not 100% clear. Unfortunately, perhaps, the £5 million figure has actually been used in two different contexts. I presume that the Member is talking about the £5 million that was part of the wider package for the restart. It is anticipated that the £5 million Education Restart well-being project funding will be allocated directly to schools, subject to business case approval. By receiving their own allocation, schools will benefit from having the flexibility to use the money to provide health and well-being support and to draw down support for their pupils and staff. There is also, separately — it was previously mentioned as part of the overall budget — an addition of £5 million in general well-being initiatives.”
“I am making the assumption that that is question No 5.”
“I appreciate that some parents have said that their children are ready to do it in November/December and would prefer to do that. Others will say that, actually, given some of the interruptions that there have been, a bit of additional preparation time will be beneficial. In many ways, it is a slightly moot point, because the choice lies with the two organisations that are setting the tests.”
“No, it is not. The position with the dates is as I indicated in my opening response. The dates of the tests are set by AQE and PPTC, so it is their choice as to when to do that. The role of the Department, arising out of the areas of implementation from the Education Authority, is whether or not, from the point at which tests are done, there is sufficient time to complete the processes to ensure that everybody is able to transfer on time. It is clear that, on the basis either of earlier tests in November/December or of later tests in January, the response from the EA is that it can be done in time to ensure that everybody transfers. The choice ultimately lay with the test providers, but it is able to be done within that. <BR /> <BR />There are mixed arguments about what the best possible date is.”
“That question is maybe a little bit closer to the centre. I admire the Member's ability to work that in. I believe, first of all, that while there is a right to academic selection, it needs to be respected. There is both strong support for and strong opposition to academic selection, but it needs to be facilitated while it is legal. The next question from the Member's colleague is on the broader issue of the well-being initiative, so I will try to pick up that detail more when Mr McHugh raises it. No, I do not think this is the time, and I am sure the Member would be very surprised if I suddenly said yes.”
“I have more sympathy for the position of the SDLP or Sinn Féin, who are abundantly clear on their position, but, at the heart of this, if the Member is saying, "Let us abolish academic selection completely", the logical output of what he is saying is, "Let us end the grammar school system". The Member cannot have his cake and eat it. If he wants to say that, on the one hand, he is pro-grammar but anti-academic selection, that is a matter of intellectual gymnastics that the Member may feel he is able to pull off, but I do not think that he is fooling anybody. While I do not agree with it, I at least admire the much greater openness of the position of those parties that are simply opposed to academic selection. I make that very clear.”
“I admire the Member's ingenuity at being able to engineer the transfer test into the latter part of that question. Academic selection is legally allowable, and it is right that schools have the opportunity to use it. The only robust way that this can actually take place is with tests. Whatever one's view, particularly on the awards during the summer, tests are clearly highly more preferable than having a situation in which there is any form of CCEA-based or assessment-centre-based assessment. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that there is no methodology at primary-school level through which assessment can take place without tests.”
“We are probably going some distance from the question. One of the issues, to some extent, would be that the overall cost would be considerably reduced because the mechanisms for having two sets of tests would not necessarily be there. Ultimately, there will be some cost, and assuming that those would still be private tests, there would then be a balance to be struck between what would be provided by those schools that are using it to provide for the children and whether there can be a contribution from parents. That is an element of detail that could prove part of that. The more that we can create a situation in which there is no direct financial burden on parents, the more it would be welcomed by everybody.”
“We could spend all day talking about the transfer test, but I do not think that there would be a consensus in this House on the subject. However, at least if the two organisations providing it could work together to provide a single robust test, that would ease the pressures for a lot of our parents.”
“My Department does not provide the transfer tests. It is a matter, ultimately, for the Association for Quality Education (AQE Ltd) and the Post Primary Test Consortium (PPTC), which provides the GL test, to determine the most appropriate way forward for the delivery of the tests, including consideration of a single transfer test option. However, I have great sympathy for the Member's question. If we could reach a point where there is a single set of tests, that would be an advantage. <BR /> <BR />I understand that some work has gone on between the organisations. There may be a question mark over whether that has been slightly delayed or slowed by COVID. From the point of view of provision, roughly 1,000 pupils each year tend to do both sets of tests. So, there is a subset there.”
“Where there has been a further spread of coronavirus in schools, the direct impact has been that pupils or staff members have been asked to self-isolate, which, in and of itself, means that people will be at home rather than using additional facilities. However, we are certainly very open to those sorts of solutions.”
“We will liaise with schools, the EA and others in relation to that. To some extent, it is something that can be drawn out at a later stage. If we are talking about localised lockdowns — we have seen what has happened over the last week or two — the aim must be to try to protect schools as much as possible from that happening. If, next year, there is a need for a greater spread of pupils to enable examinations to take place, people in the community have been in contact to say that they would be happy for their local hall of whatever description to be used. There is an opportunity that can be utilised. At the moment, it is not one that needs to be actioned.”
“I encourage others to look at what is happening at Carrick Grammar; it is a shining exemplar of some of the things that can be done in the future.”
“I am always wary of the phrase "the new normal" given the events of the last number of months. That level of cooperation, co-design and working together is very much a shining example. I was very impressed by the work in Carrickfergus between the council and the school. Although none of us has a crystal ball to be able to gaze in to the future, we will be moving ahead in what may well be a fairly tough financial situation, so we need to ensure that we get the best possible delivery for society and communities as a whole. If there is one good thing to emerge out of COVID, it is that it can help to break down barriers and make sure that, across government and different institutions, there is less of a silo mentality and we look to see where there can be the best possible benefit for schools and wider delivery for the public.”
“Although I cannot comment on individual school arrangements, I welcome the cooperative arrangement between local government and, in this case, Carrick Grammar.”
“The COVID-19 pandemic had a very significant impact on society. In seeking to get pupils back in to education, my Department provided guidance for schools on how to achieve that while enacting measures to minimise risk. Although I had no direct role in the discussions between Carrick Grammar and Mid and East Antrim Borough Council, I had the opportunity to visit the school to see the arrangements that had been put in place. It is part of a wider, deeper partnership that allows the school to use nearby council premises, which relieves some of the pressure directly in the school. I am also aware from the visit that good work is ongoing — I think that it is at planning stage — on shared facilities such as sports pitches.”
“A levels, more so than any other examinations, become a national and international gateway to university places, in particular; more so than, for example, the GCSE market, which is a lot more self-contained in Northern Ireland and is, principally but not exclusively, used for progression and employment in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I certainly give the assurance that we will make sure that we are on a level playing field with other jurisdictions. The dilemma that will sometimes come is that different jurisdictions also go in different directions, but the one thing that I am certain of is that it would be utterly wrong for Northern Ireland to go on a solo run as regards A levels, particularly given our size and because I do not want to see any student in Northern Ireland being disadvantaged.”
“I cannot guarantee what other jurisdictions will do; that is clearly the case. From that point of view, we will always need to keep an eye on what happens elsewhere and keep in close coordination. The overriding concern is to ensure not simply the integrity of examination results but, in particular, that none of our Northern Ireland students are treated unfairly in any way in comparison with their compatriots elsewhere or, as the Member rightly pointed out, with Northern Ireland students who take examinations from bodies outside Northern Ireland. There will always be an examination of what is happening, and I will make sure that, at any stage, our students are not disadvantaged when it comes to A-level results.”
“No. When it was made clear, in March or April of this year, what the arrangements for 2020 would be, there was reflection on the implications of a one-year decoupling. The ideal situation is having the AS examinations, with the mark contributing to the A level. Generally speaking, that is a sound system. The current situation, if you like, is to deal with the particular circumstances of COVID, and, if we can get back to a greater level of normality in exams, that is all the better. Certainly, the intention is that the actions taken as regards the 2020 AS levels will be a one-year solution. It is not something that I would like to see pertain for any longer than it has to.”
“If they are awarded on a completely different basis from those in Northern Ireland, you are not creating equality between students; indeed, you are not even creating equality between the different A levels. A student may get 2 CCEA grades and one from Pearson, AQA or Oxford, Cambridge and RSA (OCR) or another awarding body.”
“It is critical that the universities and the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS) cannot say, "Your A levels are not of the same standard because they are not based on the objective evidence of exams. They are based in part on a level of assessment". We cannot face a situation in which our A levels are downgraded or considered to be of less worth than their counterparts across the water. <BR /> <BR />Not only is there direct competition there, but we need to ensure that all students in Northern Ireland are treated equally. We have direct control over the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) A-level grades, which represent about 80% of A levels here, but 20% of the A levels done in Northern Ireland are set by English and Welsh boards.”
“We are in unusual situations. The awarding of exam results this year was not, I think, what any of us would have wanted, but it is also the case that the situation around A-level results in 2021 will be the same for everybody, irrespective of where they come from. In Northern Ireland, in particular, that is important, and it is certainly in line with what is happening in England and Wales and with the Scottish approach to Highers. With A levels, more than with any other qualification, our students are in direct competition with students from other jurisdictions. That means that the comparability and portability of our A levels are critical, because we represent around 2·5% of the overall number of A levels.”
“It becomes a lot more difficult — indeed, impossible — if you are trying to have a percentage of a grade,, particularly an assessed grade, and are trying to combine that with a raw mark. You are trying, effectively, to combine a percentage of a letter grade with a numerical value, so to marry the two is difficult. Also, that would put in place a range of issues around equality for many of our students doing A levels. There would be implications if it were tried to marry the two together.”
“It was made clear when the revised arrangements on grading were put out that the purpose of awarding AS grades this year was to enable young people who were not planning to continue to the full A level in 2021 to at least have an outcome that would enable them to progress to the next stage. The learning at AS level is an integral part of developing the necessary knowledge and skills, regardless of the assessment arrangements. The position taken on the cohort is in common with other jurisdictions. The normal procedure on AS levels towards A levels in Northern Ireland is therefore that you can take a percentage of a mark that was received at A level and then add that to a percentage of the mark taken at the A2 part of A level. Effectively, you are combining two marks.”
“Obviously, in the context of specific areas in Northern Ireland, the Executive have taken a view that additional restrictions will apply in a home environment. That, in part, has been fuelled by the fact that, in comparison with a school or, indeed, a business, where there is a very controlled environment, the spread of the virus is a lot more uncontrolled in a home environment. The measures that have been taken by the Executive are to alleviate the spread of the virus. As with a lot of things, it means that there is a level of restriction on people who are behaving perfectly and observing every conceivable action to prevent the spread of the virus, but, unfortunately, the irresponsible behaviour of some is creating problems for all of us.”
“I would, perhaps, be more worried if the Member were to get up and say that he agreed with me on something. I maybe would start questioning my advice at that point. <BR /> <BR />This may be a wider question for the Executive as a whole. The Executive as a whole have taken a view on the education of our young people and the major damage that would be done to our young people if schools were not being made available as much as possible and as normally as possible. That not only impacts on their education but has wider implications for society. It has wider implications for mental health, and, if we do not in the long run provide education for our young people, it will fuel poverty. It will have financial and economic implications and health implications. <BR /> <BR />The Member asked about homes.”
“We have also sent out a clear signal that parents should explore active travel where it is doable and that, in the absence of that, parents should explore whether it is possible for them to take children to school directly themselves. Those are all measures that will mitigate the pressures on school buses. <BR /> <BR />In many ways, the Member in his question makes a valid point, which is that, if we home in on one aspect of things, we miss the wider picture. As with all measures that are being done to combat the threat of COVID, it is about providing a cocktail of measures, all of which play a role in trying to deal with the threat that is there.”
“There are always things that can be done more perfectly. As part of the overall provision that was made to restart, as the Member may be aware, about £42 million was made available. Off the top of my head, around £3 million of that is for school transport. That is to try to ensure that there is additional cleaning of buses and additional transport provision to try to ease the burden.”
“For example, there was a change made with regard to movement around schools on the basis of advice received from the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Adviser. I will always be guided by what is there with regard to public health, and we will always try to be responsive, so the advice on a range of things will have to be agile.”