Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“They do. The scoping report has been undertaken by the Education Authority, and, from that point of view, health and safety is one of the key aspects that we look at with minor works. Again, because of the current financial position, the problem is that, although capital budgets are a little bit looser than the resource side in the Department of Education, the amount that can be done is limited. I therefore cannot give a direct commitment, given the sheer volume of minor works. However, obviously, health and safety tends to be given the highest priority and will be critical in the consideration of any minor works for this or any other school.”
“Owing to the reactive nature and the volume of minor works, it is not possible to indicate future plans for further works at the school. At present, only minor works schemes that meet inescapable statutory requirements, such as health and safety, fire protection and statutory obligations under the Disability Discrimination Act, are progressing to delivery. For a lot of minor works and under the SEP, there is a vast estate out there that I would like to be able to help, but it is ultimately a question of prioritising and trying to ensure that we get the maximum out of the system.”
“Therefore, while it will be particularly relevant to primary schools — the previous SEP call that was made earlier this year was ring-fenced purely to primary schools — it is not my intention to do that in the next call. SEPs are of particular advantage to primary schools. <BR /> <BR />A minor capital works application for the school to provide a new multipurpose hall and classroom is under review, and a scoping report has been undertaken by the Education Authority, identifying costs of around £500,000 for the scheme. That is being considered by the Department.”
“I suspect that the Member opposite's Irish may be a little bit better than that of the other Member who was mentioned in the introduction there. <BR /> <BR />There are currently no major capital projects planned for St Malachy’s Primary School, Glencull. Given the substantial major capital investment programme that is under way, a further call for major capital projects is not anticipated in the near future. However, I am considering the merits of making a call in the relatively near future for new projects to be advanced in planning under the school enhancement programme (SEP). As the Member will be aware, the programme involves projects to refurbish or potentially extend current school buildings with a level of spend of between £500,000 and a maximum of £4 million.”
“That is why I said that when we come to the issue of curriculum review, we should have a situation where all the key stakeholders are involved, beyond simply the narrow confines of what had been the view in education and the schools sector, shall we say. Important though they are, it should not simply be confined to that. There is a key economic driver within that, and there is a key role for the Department for the Economy, the further education colleges and other outside bodies as well.”
“The Member raises a very pertinent point, which is that we should be seeing as much complementarity in our system as possible, particularly in the interface between further education colleges and schools when it comes to sixth-form provision. We should not have a situation where there is replication and overlap. I have already met some representatives from the further education side of things. I stand to be corrected, but I suspect that the Economy Minister may be with me next week when I visit the South Eastern Regional College (SERC) to meet its chief executive. I know that the Member is very familiar with SERC. <BR /> <BR />In education, it is about looking a little bit beyond silo solutions to see where we can produce a joined-up approach.”
“<BR /> <BR />If you have a situation where, from a school's point of view, for example, there are only six or seven pupils who want to take a particular A-level course, with tight budgets, there is a danger that some schools will say that that is not economical for them. However, if they can work with other nearby schools to provide a class that creates an economy of scale, that can be helpful to the school economically and from a sharing point of view because that will be very much on a cross-community basis. It will be a situation that keeps open and opens up additional possibilities for opportunities for children. It is important that we recognise where there has been success and try to build on it rather than looking at this in a negative fashion.”
“I want to ensure that we get the maximum amount of opportunities for all our children. As I indicated, some good work has been done in this field, particularly around the entitlement framework, and it is about trying to build on that success. This is where it is important to share within and between sectors. I am aware of a number of schools, particularly with the money that has been available from shared education, that have focused some of their projects on ensuring that that takes place. For example, I was at the launch of a shared project in Bangor involving three post-primary schools in the north Down area. Some of that project concentrates on where there are minority subjects, ensuring that they open up and that access to courses is fully available to all students.”
“Economically — the Member, I think, raised this issue — that will be a key role, when we come to the review, not just for the schools or the Department but for all stakeholders, including, for instance, the Department for the Economy and the role that can be played in the cross-fertilisation with further education colleges and, in particular, business organisations, which I have already had some level of engagement with as we move forward. I think that it is important that developments on the skills barometer and the opportunities there are fed into the curriculum to provide different pathways for our children.”
“There may be a question, therefore, about the extent to which we value vocational courses to ensure that all our children are prepared for life outside the classroom on that basis. When some Members have raised that — I appreciate that the Member is not guilty of this — it has almost been put as an either/or, in that you must reduce the quality of academic courses to bring up the quality of vocational courses. It is important that we ensure that we protect our academic standards and, at the same time, give that greater degree of strength to vocational subjects. I think that that will be a key component as we look ahead to a wider curriculum review.”
“I do not disagree with the Member. We are in a situation where, even if we believed that everything in the curriculum was perfect at present, and I think that there is some criticism that we are not at that stage, it has been, I think, 10 years since there was a wider curriculum review. So, it is certainly my intention, during the lifetime of this Assembly, to do a review of the curriculum. There is a wide range of aspects to that, and while some aspects will be particularly relevant to primary schools, the focus will, obviously, be principally on post-primary provision. <BR /> <BR />Within that, there is the issue that we do have a great deal of success with our academic courses in Northern Ireland, and we have consistently led the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of our success rate.”
“<BR /> <BR />To be fair to the schools, they are operating under a very tough financial and budgetary regime. It seems to me that one of the potential ways forward on this, without prejudging any examination of it, is greater collaboration between schools. That is already beginning to happen, particularly with the shared education agenda. If we are talking about the delivery of courses, the key aim is to try to ensure that the maximum opportunity is there for pupils. That will not always be the case when we are talking about subjects that attract a relatively small number of pupils. However, cross-work between schools is vital for the way forward to ensure that maximum opportunities are provided to all our children.”
“OK. Currently, to give perspective to this, schools are required to offer at least 24 courses at Key Stage 4, and 27 in the post-16 category. In addition, at least one third of the courses offered must be general and one third applied; that is the minimum figure. The most recent figures available are that 66% of schools fully meet the requirements at Key Stage 4 and 48% do so at post-16. Full compliance requires schools with post-16 provision to be compliant at both phases. Using that measurement, 40% of schools were compliant in 2015-16. On the numerology of the schools that are not compliant, 59 fell short on total course numbers, and 51 of those fell short by a smallish amount of four courses or fewer — ie they offered between, for instance, 20 and 23 courses. So, there is not full compliance.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The entitlement framework remains an important component of the statutory curriculum. It is designed to ensure that all learners in Key Stage 4 and post-16 have access to a broad and balanced range of economically relevant and individually engaging courses. The majority of schools are meeting, or are very close to meeting, the entitlement framework requirements in full. That is a significant achievement in challenging times, and I am anxious that we retain and build upon the benefits that have been accrued so far. I will be considering the way forward for the entitlement framework over the coming weeks, including the statutory requirements.”
“It brought into place 16 recommendations, I think, of which 11 were directly for the ETI itself. I understand that all 11 recommendations have been implemented. I could list the 11 key changes, but shortage of time would preclude such an answer. The other recommendations fall to the Department, and I think they are being implemented as well. There is a key role for the Department and, in particular, the Committee, on this. Given the educational and financial constraints, I do not believe it would be particularly good value for public money to be setting up an additional body to scrutinise those who are scrutinising the schools, because we might be moving into a situation of observation ad infinitum.”
“With testing in schools, sometimes we are faced with multiple-choice questions, and you can give a range of answers. I appreciate that the Chair has given me a range of questions. <BR /> <BR />I think the ETI has held up to strong scrutiny. If we are simply to have bodies monitoring other bodies that are monitoring others, there is a danger of having the situation you sometimes see in films of gazing into a mirror in the funfair, with images stretching into infinity. A report was brought out — I am not claiming credit for it; it was largely before my time or the Chair's — that had recommendations on one of the areas on which the ETI is held to account by the Education Committee. In the last mandate, the Education Committee brought out a report on inspection and training with a large focus particularly on the ETI.”
“Where there are any problems in schools, they can sometimes be for a myriad of reasons. Different problems may need to be addressed, so it is about addressing those individual problems. <BR /> <BR />We should always focus on the fact that, in formal intervention — I appreciate this from the school's point of view — a school will have a feeling that it is damaging to its reputation, so it is difficult on that basis. But the focus always should be about providing help to pupils. If help is needed, it needs to go in by formal intervention, but that is obviously very much a last step in self-improvement.”
“I think it is about having a working exercise between the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) and the individual school to raise those standards and address the individual problems. To slightly adjust a previous line, you can say that:”
“In terms of the support available, and mention has been made of the EA and the voluntary exit scheme, at the end of the day, we have to have a financial regime that is as beneficial as possible to all schools. In many ways, if the choice is between making some level of cuts within the EA or ensuring that money goes to the front-line services, I think that is what has to happen. <BR /> <BR />I think all schools should be receiving support, but there is, obviously, a limited level of resources. However, the focus has always been on providing post-inspection support to schools that are eligible for it through the formal intervention process. In the formal intervention process, we try to focus in those finite resources. They are prioritised to where the need is greatest and the capacity for self-improvement needs support.”
“That alignment is not just something that is written in documents; its procedures have been introduced to follow up on all published inspection reports so that outstanding or very good practice can be shared, areas for further improvement identified and addressed and, where provision is less than satisfactory, additional support provided. Every School a Good School states that sustained improvement comes from within a school, and inspection is really a catalyst and enabler for improvement. There is a strong link between internal self-examination and external assessment undertaken through inspection so that, hopefully, an inspection becomes a continuum of improvement; it is not something that simply sits apart from the work that is ongoing in the school.”
“One of the things that we sometimes forget when the focus is very much on delivery in schools is that the ultimate goal of all this is to ensure that we get good results for all our pupils. They should be the ultimate focus. <BR /> <BR />Alongside the work of teachers, school leaders, boards of governors and the managing authority, inspection, I believe, is a critical component of school improvement. The Department's school improvement policy and inspection service are already closely aligned, with both being focused on promoting improvement in the interests of all learners.”
“First, I join with all schools that have received good reports. As MLAs, we are glad that there is no training inspectorate for us to rate whether we are good, outstanding or otherwise. I am sure that all Members would fly through with flying colours in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The Department's school improvement policy, Every School a Good School, sets out an overarching approach to raising standards and tackling underachievement in all schools. It focuses on promoting factors that local and international evidence tell us are the core characteristics of a school. It aims to support school leaders, boards of governors and teachers in implementing good practice in their school, to address any barriers to learning that pupils might face and to improve outcomes for all pupils.”
“I also note that, from 1 September 2015, ETI changed its "Overall effectiveness" reporting model from a six-point scale to a four-point scale, which, hopefully, will make it more accessible. The descriptors for overall effectiveness of "Very good" or "Outstanding" were amalgamated and became a new conclusion for overall effectiveness known as "High level of capacity for sustained improvement".”
“I thank the Member for the question. The Education and Training Inspectorate, which is more commonly referred to as the ETI, has a statutory function to monitor, inspect and report on the standard of education in schools on behalf of the Department of Education, to promote the highest standards of education in the interests of the pupils. Inspection ensures that best practice is highlighted and shared and poor provision is identified, supported and improved, and it contributes to building capacity for ongoing improvement. <BR /> <BR />The current inspection data shows that, over a seven-year period from 1 September 2009 to 31 August 2016, 504 schools, 428 of which were primary schools and 76 post-primary schools, have been rated by the Education and Training Inspectorate as either "Very good" or "Outstanding".”
“Even if the Executive were in a position today to announce any change on that, you would be talking about people entering teacher training who would potentially graduate in a few years' time. It would be five to 10 years before you would see any benefit. I am acutely aware of the situation where we have a large number of recently qualified teachers who are not able to gain posts, and this is a potential win-win opportunity to enable some more newly qualified teachers to enter the profession while being able to release, on an entirely voluntary basis, some teachers who are between 55 and 59. That not only has to be applied for by that individual but has to be approved by the school, because some schools will take a view that they do not want to let particular members of staff go.”
“The scheme has received Executive approval. The previous Minister mooted something quite similar. The Executive have agreed that it will go forward on the basis of a pilot scheme for 2016-17, with about 120 eligible posts. There has been an indication from at least one person of a potential legal challenge. We will have to see whether that comes forward. There is a great opportunity. To be fair, it has been welcomed by the teaching workforce and, in particular, the trade unions as a positive way forward. The principal aim is to refresh the teaching workforce, but it will also benefit school budgets. <BR /> <BR />There is a longer-term issue with the profile of our teaching workforce and a concern as to whether the number coming through teacher training exceeds the number of posts available. That will need to be tackled in a wider context.”
“To be fair to schools, I do not think that they would take the significant step of precautionary suspension — there may be circumstances in which children need to be protected — very lightly. Most schools act in a very responsible manner. When there is a precautionary suspension, that decision is weighed very carefully before action is taken.”
“There is a potential cost to school budgets on that basis. We all have to ensure, particularly as schools are under a high level of pressure with the aggregated schools budget, that those are kept to a minimum. As I said, our problem is that the terms and conditions lie outside the control of the Department, so we are trying to influence and send a positive signal to schools about the need to deal with precautionary suspensions, in particular, as swiftly as possible. When talking about precautionary suspensions, while due process always has to follow in those circumstances, it is in nobody's interest, whether it is the school, the budgetary position or the teacher who has received a precautionary suspension, for that to drag on any longer than is necessary.”
“<BR /> <BR />Decisions on precautionary suspension are not taken arbitrarily; they are taken by employers, which is the board of governors in consultation with the relevant employing authorities. Again, the Department is not the relevant employing authority, so we do not have a role or a power to intervene directly. We can try, where possible, to influence. Suspensions here tend to be a lot less frequent compared with other jurisdictions; there is greater security of tenure of positions. Ultimately, it is up to individual boards of governors and employing authorities. At best, we can try to be an influencer for progress and for good rather than having a direct intervention role.”
“It is important to note that, as the Department does not employ teachers directly, it is not directly involved in employment matters, including precautionary suspensions. Teachers are employed by the relevant boards of governors, and employment decisions, such as precautionary suspensions, are taken by individual boards of governors. We monitor all cases of precautionary suspension, paying due regard to the role of the employer. From February of this year, accounting officers in the employing authorities have been asked to provide the Department's chief accounting officer with governance and accountability reviews. That means that all such cases have been subject to monthly case review and that necessary action has been taken. It is an ongoing issue.”
“Strictly speaking, that would lie outside my direct jurisdiction. I agree that article 71 needs to be removed. The legislation responsible for that does not lie within the Department of Education, it lies within the Executive Office. There is ongoing work to deal with that. It has previously been highlighted by, for instance, the Equality Commission. The legislation to repeal that — to try to ensure that we have a level playing field in teacher employment — lies within the Executive Office rather than the Department of Education. However, it is important that we reach a situation in which we move on any artificial barriers to employment, particularly an exclusion that is, I think, a relic of the past.”
“Arrangements for the terms and conditions of ancillary staff employed by the Education Authority (EA) are negotiated through the joint negotiating council. We have a smaller role on that council — my Department has observer status — than on the teaching side. <BR /> <BR />Arrangements for the terms and conditions of other ancillary staff are a matter for the individual boards of governors, and my Department has no role.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The Department of Education is not the employer of teachers or ancillary staff in schools. The role of my Department in the employment of teachers relates to their terms and conditions, which are negotiated through the forum of the teachers’ negotiating committee, at which my Department is represented. Teachers’ terms and conditions, including pay, are negotiated through that committee. That applies to all teachers in grant-aided schools. My Department is responsible for approving the teacher appointment schemes of the Education Authority and the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS). <BR /> <BR />My Department has no role in the employment of ancillary staff.”
“For example, there is much greater use of Irish language schools in the Republic of Ireland. That means that there is a background of expertise there. For instance, the inspectorate probably has much more experience of dealing with such schools. It is important, I suppose, that we learn to cover those situations. I am keen to see cross-jurisdictional exchanges of information and exchanges in a general sense across all the borders, and I think that a considerable amount of that is ongoing.”
“A range of exchanges takes place on different levels. I mentioned, for instance, that the youth councils cooperate on a British Isles-wide basis. <BR /> <BR />An exchange could involve a representative of the ETI going to a conference, and characterising that as "a plethora" may be questionable. There are, however, experiences that we can learn from.”
“Indeed, when I visited, that was one of the examples of good practice that was indicated to me, not simply by professional staff but by the parents of children whom Middletown is directly helping.”
“We should remember that the collaboration in Middletown is specifically focused on autism. The college is probably not in a position to widen it beyond that at this stage, although the new governing committee may want to take it in a slightly different direction. Principally, that is about trying to teach and explain best practice to teachers and parents. <BR /> <BR />So far, there has been a total of 58,000 separate contacts on the issue of training in Middletown. The contacts have focused not just on the teachers who are responsible for a child for only part of the day. It is important to get not simply a whole-school approach but a whole-life approach, and critical to Middletown's work has been the training of parents. That is one of its major advantages.”
“The absenteeism policy, for example, and working out how to ensure that the attendance, particularly of those who are underachieving, is better, has an important impact on educational underachievement. Different schemes operate at grass-roots level in Northern Ireland, and it is about learning those things. That is pertinent not only to Northern Ireland; it arises in the Republic of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales and, indeed, throughout the world. It is about trying to disseminate best practice. Obviously, there will be a range of choices to be made at individual school level, but, if schools can make those choices against a better background of what is potentially best practice, it will enable them to take informed decisions.”
“As part of that, Co-operation Ireland has been looking at the overall issue and taken a number of actions. Decisions were taken some time ago to provide support from both jurisdictions. On the details, there will be a range of outputs from the project: for instance, we are looking at the conferences that have taken place, a programme of teacher professional development and the management of educational underachievement. What arises from the conferences will provide an informing tool for how we take that forward. <BR /> <BR />The Member is quite right to say that there are different curriculums — that must be realised. However, a range of the activities pertinent to educational underachievement may not be particularly or massively curriculum driven. This is a lesson that may need to be learned in Northern Ireland.”
“There is, for instance, close work involving Northern Ireland by the Dundalk Institute of Technology and the Open University, with particular endorsements from colleagues in England, Scotland and Wales. A very open attitude has been taken by the education and training standards committees across a range of jurisdictions, which will, hopefully, be beneficial to all aspects of education.”
“I mentioned that it is useful that there is wider learning and cooperation. That is helpful whether it is on a North/South basis or across the United Kingdom and involving a range of organisations. That is particularly true for the North/South education and training standards committee for youth work. It is working closely not just on a North/South basis but with its counterpart organisations and the training standards committees in England, Scotland and Wales through the joint education and training standards committee. That means that the individual committees are able to operate things like mutual recognition of protocols and to work together.”
“In times of tough budgets, it is one of the areas that I am keenest to protect as much as possible; indeed, if possible, I want to see it grow.”
“Before the Deputy Speaker raises any issue, I will say that, yes, I will try to see what learning is done from that. There are a number of interventions, as the Member is aware, particularly in communities and, indeed, in wider contexts that are helpful in tackling educational underachievement. In the last fortnight, for example, a report was produced on nurture units. There has been a level of success with that. There is a separately funded early interventions strategy that is, in part, supported by Delivering Social Change and the Atlantic Philanthropies. It is things like Learning to Learn. There are a range of measures. Sometimes, arguments go off on tangents, but, in my view, when tackling underachievement, the biggest single intervention is early intervention, which is where the focus ultimately has to be.”
“As I highlighted at the conference, that can sometimes involve what happens internally in Northern Ireland because a range of useful things are happening on the ground on educational underachievement in parts of Northern Ireland. Trying to spread that message within Northern Ireland is useful. We should not be so arrogant in Northern Ireland to believe that we have all the answers to every question. Consequently, when there is an exchange of information, whether it is on a North/South basis, with other parts of the United Kingdom or, indeed, about international best practice, particularly on educational underachievement, we should be prepared to listen, find that best practice and try to ensure that it is disseminated. That should be the focus. There will be a substantive report on that next year, and I look forward to receiving it.”
“I was able to attend and address the opening session of the conference in Newry on Thursday on educational underachievement. It is the second such conference that has been organised by Co-operation Ireland. A range of actions will arise out of that, particularly dissemination of best practice. When it comes to educational achievement, particularly in an environment of tight educational budgets and, indeed, tight budgets across government as a whole, it is about trying to ensure that we have gained the knowledge of best practice and then disseminated it. <BR /> <BR />In that context, the opportunity for professionals to exchange views is helpful. Part of the Co-operation Ireland project is to try to disseminate that best practice, which is also helpful.”
“That is a matter that falls outside the North/South Ministerial Council meeting statement. As a result of the Children's Services Co-operation Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 and other actions that are being taken, there is now liaison between education and health. We start from a base that clearly needs to be improved. At a high level, there is departmental cooperation. We have to try to ensure that that happens on the ground for special educational needs. However, as I said, that has limited direct relevance to the statement itself.”
“My answer may be shorter than the question. <BR /> <BR />I always see benefit in exchanges between jurisdictions. Youth work can almost be seen as having a Cinderella-type quality in education, and it is important that it is embraced. On the brevity of that part of the statement, while there are significant impacts from a DES point of view in terms of the referendum and the challenges and opportunities that are there, most of those do not interact directly with the Department of Education. Most of the EU implications, particularly from the Republic of Ireland, as highlighted by the Chair, tend to look more at student exchange and mobility at higher and further education level. There was limited amount of nexus on that issue, which explains why a relatively short part of the statement related to that aspect.”
“Broadly speaking, I am satisfied, although I remain open. If there are other suggestions of any adjustments to that model, I am happy to take those on board.”
“The emphasis of all that focus is on outreach and what is called a "whole-school" approach, taking the trained professionals from Middletown and embedding them for a period in the schools where the children who have autism are. There are positive spin-offs from that. It means that there is training for the school itself, which puts it in a much better position to deal with future autism needs. That might have started off as plan B effectively, but I think that plan B has actually worked out to be much more effective. Talking to board members, staff, some of whom have been there from the very start, and the parents was a very moving experience but also a very informative one. It showed that plan B had almost certainly worked out a lot better than the original plans. Sometimes that is the route that life takes us.”
“Obviously, there will need to be a degree of refreshment of that. The last time there were questions in the House on Middletown, the Northern Ireland representatives on the board at Middletown had been appointed and we were waiting for the nominees from the Republic of Ireland. I was glad to see that, by the North/South ministerial meeting, those appointments had been made by the Republic of Ireland, which enables them to move forward. <BR /> <BR />Broadly speaking, Middletown took a different path from what was originally intended. The original intention, with a greater level of resources, particularly from the Republic of Ireland, was to have something based on a residential centre. The focus for Middletown shifted to a range of things, including research and training sessions for teachers and parents.”