Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“We do not want to see a situation where anyone at the Department of Education — given the timescale for this, it will probably not apply to the current Minister but to his successor or his officials — sees himself as playing the role of mighty Caesar in the gladiatorial arena, giving a thumbs up or thumbs down, at whim, to particular projects. Schools need a level of certainty. <BR /> <BR />Linked to that is the issue of educational benefits. It is important that we put at the heart of this an educational driver. If assessment is to be used as part of the process of measuring that, we must have widely and clearly agreed means of assessment that have the confidence of the wider sector. The experience that we had with the shared education signature projects is one that we want to avoid.”
“I believe that that format looks to the main providers but gives space for schools to develop at their own pace and in their own way. There are models of shared education that will be of benefit. Here, we need to see a degree of balance. There is also a need to ensure that schools can move forward with clear understanding as well. <BR /> <BR />The representatives of the Department indicated to the Committee that they would judge things on a case-by-case basis, and, yes, there is a need for a level of flexibility. However, as I indicated when speaking as Chair, I expect that there will be suspicions within the sector.”
“Whereas it is important that schools play a vital role in communities, that should not simply be used as a device to protect the existence of a school when that school is really unsustainable, but I think that there are efficiencies in the system that could be driven by shared education, and there are benefits to be had there. <BR /> <BR />The Bill itself is widely drawn in terms of what is meant by shared education. Mention has already been made of the socio-economic impact, and it is right that there should be flexibility, because there is a wide range of activities out there in shared education, which we should encourage. I welcome the fact that the focus is very much on the provider and the sectors, whether through the Department, the arm's-length bodies and the youth settings.”
“It is right also that the legislation goes beyond schools and looks, for instance, at youth settings and indeed has the full panoply across that. <BR /> <BR />Also, it has been highlighted that — particularly when it comes to issues around IT and, perhaps, in the future, issues around personnel as well — in tight economic times, when we are trying to get the best possible value for everybody involved in the education system, sharing can lead to a higher level of efficiency in the system. We see sometimes, particularly with small schools, a movement at times to a situation of joint management of schools and sharing between principals of schools, which can be helpful as well.”
“I think that that will be of benefit to society as well. Also, and I concur with the Minister in this, it is not just about the broader, wider, societal benefits but the benefits to individual pupils who are involved in shared education. The widening of their experiences and the broadening of their confidence is something that will be helpful. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, I think that there is a broad educational benefit. That will come down to where we see the particular definitions in this. Undoubtedly, this should be a driver. While the focus will largely be on the societal benefits, I believe that cooperation between schools can be of benefit educationally and can help, for instance, pupils in one area to be linked in with another, and they can learn from each other's experiences. That should be an educational driver.”
“There is the commonly understood area of community relations of various sections of society working together, which I think that everyone would acknowledge is a benefit. There is also something else, and I think that it is important and right that the Bill makes direct reference to it. We often think of the community relations side of it as being purely between the two main sections of the community, but the emphasis in the Bill on socio-economic interaction is also very helpful.”
“First, legislation in and of itself will not do everything as regards shared education. A lot of work will have to happen on the ground that is not appropriate for legislation. Really, what we are looking for in legislation is a broad framework that aids what is happening. Secondly, it is also important to realise that there are many good shared education projects already happening. We are not starting simply with a blank page. We are looking to see a broadening and deepening of shared education. As such, we need to provide a framework for it and a facilitation of it; that would be helpful. <BR /> <BR />A number of benefits can accrue from shared education. The Minister has highlighted some of them, and I suspect that others will make reference to them in their speeches. There is a broader societal benefit.”
“Given that we are close to the end of the mandate and that the Committee has dealt with this in a full report, I expect the Committee Stage to be short and rather intense. I appeal then to officials and stakeholders to be flexible as we consider this important legislation. It is the Committee's intention to do its job well and quickly. We see no desire to hold up the Bill, and we ask for everyone's cooperation in this task. <BR /> <BR />I will now make some remarks not as Chair of the Committee but as a DUP MLA. I give a broad welcome to the legislation. I have highlighted some areas where I would like to see some level of change. The legislation, by its nature, is not going to be perfect. To be fair, that is not necessarily a criticism of the legislation, because we have to recognise two things.”
“to make Levels of Progression part of the funding criteria for participation in the shared education signature programme. I know from correspondence with the Minister, at the levels of MLA and Committee member, that he is trying to resolve this and, indeed, is in discussions with the various teaching bodies and unions. However, we, as a Committee, are keen that some of the problems that have arisen there are not repeated when we pass this Bill. <BR /> <BR />In concluding my remarks as Chair in anticipation of the Committee Stage, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Department and our stakeholders. We have issued a call for evidence, so I suspect that the latter are busy drafting their responses and will submit those within a relatively short time frame.”
“With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I simply remind the House that the Education Committee supports the measurement and reporting of educational improvements associated with all shared education programmes. However, the Committee has repeatedly advised the Department:”
“As I indicated, the Bill gives the Department and some arm's-length bodies — and I think that it is important that it does not focus purely on the Department but covers arm's-length bodies — powers and not duties. The Minister has explained why he believes that that should be the case, but we, as a Committee, wonder whether this sits a little inconsistently with the obligations on the Education Authority as set out in the Education Act 2014. Again, members may well want to look at that during the anticipated Committee Stage. <BR /> <BR />The Bill does not refer to measures of educational improvement associated with the shared education signature project. I suspect that this will be mentioned in today's debate.”
“The Committee, during its inquiry, also felt that the relevant section 75 groups should be covered by shared education and that it should promote attitudinal improvement and meaningful contact between them. Again, we will want to see whether this will be covered directly by the Bill.”
“The Bill mentions reasonable numbers of Protestant and Catholic children. When we had a pre-briefing on that by the Department, the purpose of that was to allow a level of flexibility. I suppose where we are always trying to strike a balance in these things is on the issue between flexibility and providing schools with a level of certainty. I suppose it will be interesting to obtain the views of the Minister on that. For example, if we are talking about reasonable numbers, how will that be interpreted, and can that mean, for example, that it can be provided for in sharing between schools in a single sector?”
“Witnesses to the inquiry felt that that lack of clarity allowed all sorts of activities to be questionably labelled as shared education. The witnesses argued that that served to debase the term and allowed detractors to dismiss it as a light touch and as supporting the status quo. <BR /> <BR />During our consideration of the Special Educational Needs and Disability (SEND) Bill, Members talked about the inclusion of a purposes clause in that Bill. A discussion on whether we need a purposes clause for shared education may resurface during Committee Stage. Such a change might provide a level of definition and certainty, without limiting schools' imagination in respect of shared education programmes. <BR /> <BR />I talked about what shared education is; it is just as important to know and talk about who is going to be doing shared education.”
“The Committee previously indicated that it strongly believed that the unique selling point of shared education was its focus on improving the educational attainment of participants. That was evidenced in programmes operated by the Centre for Shared Education and others. It was clearly critical to winning the trust and securing the participation of those who are a little wary of engagement with neighbouring communities or are a little suspicious of the motives of the Department of Education. I am sure that the Minister would say that those are ill-founded suspicions. Nevertheless, they appear. Therefore, the absence in the Bill of a direct reference to educational improvement is a little disconcerting. <BR /> <BR />Also absent is a linkage to supporting the curriculum.”
“As the Bill is focused in that regard, it is not surprising that it provides less definition on the policy than the policy itself. That is to be expected. <BR /> <BR />However, the Bill does not make explicit reference to educational improvement, it does not emphasise the importance of shared education being based on curriculum-based activities, and it seems to restrict inclusion to Protestants and Catholics and to socio-economic deprivation. The Minister outlined his reasons for suggesting that: namely that the Bill gives the Department and others a power — not a duty — to encourage and facilitate shared education. I suspect that those are issues that the Committee will want to tease out at Consideration Stage. <BR /> <BR />I would like to deal with some of those issues. First, educational improvement.”
“<BR /> <BR />As the Minister indicated, the Bill is relatively short, so I expect that some of the examination will be to ensure that the detail is got right and to look at areas where there may be a concern that the Bill does not go far enough or perhaps leaves something out. However, those will be matters for Consideration Stage. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister said in his opening remarks, the Bill is the legislative underpinning for the Department's Sharing Works policy. That policy defines shared education as cross-sectoral, inclusive cooperation between educational providers, delivering educational benefits and promoting good relations. The definition of that policy goes a considerable way towards the Committee's recommendation on the definition of shared education.”
“The Committee has considered the Bill in considerable depth. It undertook, and recently reported on, an inquiry into shared and integrated education. A key recommendation of that report was that there should be a statutory obligation on the Department and its arm's-length bodies to encourage the participation of all schools in shared education, and I welcome the Bill in going some way to meeting that recommendation. I anticipate that Committee members will generally give a broad welcome to the Bill in principle and will want to take it through the Committee Stage in order to examine the need for amendments.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wish you well in your retirement. As part of the somewhat ageing class of '98, I think that you are one of the few Members in the Chamber who has reached the age of 70. I hope that I look as well when I am 70. I hope to actually reach the age of 70, but that is another bridge to be crossed.”
“I thank the Minister for his response so far. Will he outline what further meetings he intends to have with groups that are still impacted by the problems with ESF funding?”
“I do not know whether Mr Hazzard is putting down a marker that, if you go to a grammar school, you might end up as an MLA. If so, that may be the strongest argument against academic selection that has been offered in the debate.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. What impact does he believe the creation of the controlled schools sectoral support body will have on the teaching appointments scheme for controlled schools?”
“I thank the Minister for giving a succinct answer. Given that one of the major problem areas here is the lack of confidence among teachers in the assessment process, what consideration is being given to having greater direct input from teachers in the future design of Key Stage assessments?”
“That is not to say that there are not problems with social mobility that we need to tackle, but we have to make sure that we do not produce solutions that are counterproductive. <BR /> <BR />I am in favour of any form of discussions that can take place, but they have got to be grounded on reality. From that point of view, solutions that are designed to effectively phase out academic selection or, indeed, to simply persuade those who are in favour of academic selection of the error of their ways will not be productive. I suspect that, with the best will in the world, we are unlikely to reach consensus, but it has got to be grounded on recognition of the legal right to academic selection. From that point of view, therefore, I conclude my remarks.”
“One of my concerns about the discussion of the transfer process is that, sometimes, it has tended to distract from where the real issues of underachievement and social mobility tend to take place, which are very much in the early years. That is where the main focus has got to lie. If academic selection were made illegal overnight, we would be left with an exacerbation of the problems with social mobility. We would have a situation such as has developed in England, with schools based purely on the ability to pay — a system of public schools where any opportunity for a child from a lower socio-economic background to progress well in their education would effectively be removed. We would exacerbate the problems of social mobility.”
“We agree with the sentiment in the motion that one size does not fit all; we have to recognise that diversity. I caution against the suggestion, however well intended, that progress is simply done by way of some form of teacher guidance. Having teachers effectively selecting who goes to a particular school would put teachers in an impossible situation. That was tried out for one year at the beginning of the 1980s but was immediately abandoned by the Government, because it could have led to teachers being pressured, questions of favouritism and parents lobbying for their children to get in. We need a single system of tests. <BR /> <BR />We support academic selection. Mention has been made of social mobility, which is very important.”
“<BR /> <BR />Secondly, although politics has played a role in this and different approaches have been taken, it is naive to believe that politicking is barring a solution and this could be sorted out quickly if the politicians simply disappeared. The reality is that we have the current system because there is widespread disagreement not just among politicians but among schools, parents and, indeed, the different desires that are there. As a party, we back parental choice, which is why, as a party, we were four-square behind the Dickson plan, which worked very well in that area. We certainly accept the rights of a lot of parents who want to opt out of any form of selection and to send their children to non-selective schools, but we stand four-square behind the rights of schools and parents to have academic selection.”
“<BR /> <BR />When this party helped negotiate the right for academic selection to be put in legislation in 2007, we were told by the then Education Minister, Caitríona Ruane, that a system that was not regulated would be some form of disaster, it would be overwhelmed with court challenges and the whole system would collapse very quickly. However, as has been indicated, since that date, tens of thousands of pupils have gone through the tests; indeed, the indications are, as I think even the proposer indicated, that they are becoming more popular. This year, I think, the AQE figures will go up, and a projected 7,760 will take the tests. So, if we are having discussions, they must be based on the realities of the legal position. That is an important factor.”
“I would describe what we are faced with in the motion as a little bit of a mixed bag. Elements of it are very good and others less so. If the main thrust of this is that it would be preferable to have a regulated system, I certainly agree with that. I have no problem with discussions taking place on how that can be best achieved. Similarly, one area that I also find agreement with is the focus of those discussions. Any discussions have to be on a realistic basis that recognises the legal position. I think that, if we are able to reach a single system of testing by way of academic selection, that will be welcomed. However, while regulation is desirable if we can reach consensus on it, which I suspect is where the difficulty may lie, it is wrong to portray the current system of unregulated tests as some form of disaster out there.”
“Can the Minister firm up the information on the Bangor scheme? I welcome the completions that have taken place, but is the Bangor scheme due for completion, and is its timescale on track?”
“No, I have only a minute or so to go. How long will it be before the Churches are pressurised and, if not compelled by way of law, put into a situation where, for example, requirements for funding or other forms of assistance, will require that? I think it is naive to believe otherwise. I am sure that many of the people who have put this forward are well intended, but it is naive to believe that what is proposed today is going to be the endgame solution. This is, inevitably, part of a process in which the Churches and their rights will be put under threat. For all those reasons, I urge this House to do as it has done before and reject this motion.”
“In that case, on a matter of conscience, the bakery said, "No, we are not going to produce a particular item. We want the right to dissent." Yet, the bakery was taken to court. If civil marriage is brought into place, how long will it be, either directly or indirectly, before the Churches —”
“The reality is that that will simply be a stepping stone to the next demand, which will clearly be that religious ceremonies are recognised and that there is total equality. If you are part of a gay or lesbian couple and you have the offer on the table of civil marriage but are denied any opportunity of religious ceremony or the opportunity for a Church to conduct that wedding, or, indeed, of a particular faith, you are not, according to your own definition, being treated equally. So, it will only be a matter of time before that is the case. <BR /> <BR />Although there is no direct reference to it in this motion, we are told that the proposers of the motion are very much in favour of protections for Churches. Is that the same as the protection of conscience in the provision of goods, as we saw, for instance, in the Ashers case?”
“No. I am sure that I will be able to listen to the wise words of Mr McCrea at a later stage in the debate, but I have a limited amount of time. <BR /> <BR />That, then, leaves the real issue of equality. The motion and speeches have been peppered with mention of equality. If you are a true believer in equality and if that, above substantive rights, is the driver, the motion proposed does not render equality either. It is neither equal, nor is it the endgame. <BR /> <BR />A number of years ago, the Labour Government brought in civil partnerships, which were meant to sort out the problem of how we recognise relationships between people of the same sex. That was supposed to be the endgame of the proposal. Now, a number of years down the line, we see that the issue has been pushed into a position where it is recognition of civil marriage.”
“No, I have a limited amount of time. I know that, later on, the Member will give the winding-up speech. <BR /> <BR />From that point of view, I believe that that issue is already covered. That leaves one key —”
“And that is why we have civil partnerships, which very neatly brings me to my second point. If this issue is about substantive rights, I believe that provision has already been made for those in terms of civil partnerships, inheritance, taxation and all proprietary rights. Those were part of a wide range of things that were brought in by the Labour Government some time ago. So, if the issue is about substantive rights, that is already sorted out. I stand to be corrected, but I think that we may well have been unique in the world in having that form of civil partnership. There may be others —”
“Marriage, by definition, excludes on a range of grounds, including gender and the number of people involved. That is not just an academic debating point; a couple of countries are already looking at the issue of polygamy. Marriage is also defined by the age of the people taking part and by the blood links between those getting married. The reality is that, once you move away from those fundamentals, as opposed to simply tinkering at the edges, you actually destroy the definition of marriage; you render the idea of marriage meaningless.”
“I appreciate that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, you are correct to say that this is a very serious debate. I hope that the serious tone of the debate can be maintained, because it is a very serious issue for people on both sides of the argument. I stand against the motion. Obviously, we have had this debate in different forms on four previous occasions. In many ways, the fundamental reasons why I oppose this motion have not changed. There are three main reasons for that. <BR /> <BR />I will pick up where Mr Lunn left off. He talked about the definition of marriage. I do not make any judgement about any other form of relationship, but my belief is that marriage should be between one man and one woman. That is by nature. If people want to say that that is an exclusive definition or that it is not inclusive, they are completely correct.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, for silencing the Chamber for my benefit.”
“Mention was made of a number in the maintained sector. St Columbanus' College is a Catholic maintained school; however, a majority of its pupils come from the Catholic community and a minority come from what has been identified as the Protestant community, but it has very deliberately taken action to try to ensure that it has that mix. For example — and, to be fair, I think that the Department accommodated this — when there were caps on numbers, the impact would have been to skew the figures against that sort of mixing, and I think that it successfully argued in relation to that. So, it is about being organic but trying to drill down into why those schools have reached that and what lessons can be learned from the wider education community.”
“I agree with the Member in relation to that. In some of those cases that has been simply organic. It has also sometimes been helped along the way in organic qualities. It comes back to the Education Committee looking at one of the options on the table in terms of some of the super-mix schools and how those schools have arrived at the position they have arrived at. On some occasions, it has also been because of particular, deliberate decisions.”
“Although I agree that it is the case that the bulk of integrated schools are probably all-ability, there are some integrated schools that are taking a streamed approach and reserving a certain number of places on the basis of academic selection. There is a concern from some of the schools in the integrated sector that, as all-ability schools, they are being measured against some schools that are ring-fencing a percentage of their pupils on the basis of ability. Therefore, it is not the case that all integrated schools are all-ability.”
“I believe that, if grasped, there is a great opportunity to make real progress and give real advantage to our society and to our children's education, and I believe that shared education can play a very large part in that. As Chair, I look forward to the rest of the debate.”
“To that end, there are clearly two aspects of this in the community relations and societal benefits that I think everyone would accept, but we also need to embrace the educational opportunities that arise with shared education. In particular, we have to look beyond the relationships between the two communities and embrace the various section 75 groups. For example, there should be a recognition of the wide number of pupils who now either come from outside Northern Ireland or whose families do not identify with either community, and we should try to establish help and support across some of the social divides there. I think that the contribution of shared education will also go across the socio-economic barrier. That is important as well. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, time is running out.”
“Above all, as has been identified in the report, we need to look at where we can incentivise shared education and where we can try to remove the barriers to shared education, but we also need to see commitment from schools themselves. To that extent, the Committee's recommendation is that it should be done on a full school basis. The focus on the contribution towards the curriculum and education is vital. It is crucial, particularly if financial support is available, that schools do not approach this in a tokenistic fashion and do not do something that simply ticks the box to ensure that they can qualify for shared education. We should see this as a real and meaningful experience that enriches the lives of all our children.”
“As has been indicated, we have to celebrate the positive of the wide range of shared education opportunities such as integrated education, joint projects between the schools, sharing of various natures, jointly managed church schools potentially and the super-mixed schools. There is a wide range. It is my belief that, as we move forward with shared education, we need to embrace that flexibility. We need to ensure that we have a definition that can help ground this but one that also embraces the various alternatives rather than having a single focus on one particular aspect of that. <BR /> <BR />The legislation is likely to be quite framework in nature, but, as we move beyond that, the key point will be the implementation of that.”
“However, rather than dealing with the negative, this is an opportunity for shared education to embrace the positive. We cannot change things overnight, but there are a number of positive developments that we need to embrace. First of all, with the creation of the Education Authority, the various sectors are, probably for the first time, all represented on a fair basis around the table at the same time. That gives an opportunity but also places a great responsibility on the Education Authority. Secondly, we need to see a strong commitment to shared education coming directly from the Department as well. With the legislation, there are indications that that is the case.”
“However, there is no point pretending that we have that blank page. We have constraints on what is there and, indeed, have to consider the desires of parents and the different pressures in the sectors.”
“For any of us looking at the wide variety of sectors in education in Northern Ireland and the multiplicity of the schools estate, it is undoubtedly the case that if we were starting today with a completely blank page to design a system for our schools, we would not arrive at the system that we have today.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank the Department for attending quite a few of the evidence sessions and, where we had queries, providing clarification on a large number of issues. <BR /> <BR />I think that the inquiry has helped the Committee –— and will, hopefully, help the House and Northern Ireland as a whole — to come to a greater appreciation of shared and integrated education and the positive, inclusive practices in many of our schools. <BR /> <BR />I believe that this report and the Minister's answers will help us all as we deal with potential legislation that is coming forward on this subject and other related policy issues. Therefore, as Chair I commend to the House the Committee's report on shared and integrated education. <BR /> <BR />In the few moments left to me, I want to make a few brief remarks as a DUP MLA.”