Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“That mentality has changed, and when I see new builds or school enhancement programmes, it is very noticeable that thought is given — it runs as a constant — to how facilities can be developed so that they are not used solely by the school but can have a wider community usage. It might be a case of having different gates, different access points or whatever, but a wide range of things are being done. When it comes to delivery, I would praise the work of the women's centres; Lord Morrow mentioned that. They have delivered on a range of activities, and I welcome the decision that he took in relation to that. <BR /> <BR />Carla Lockhart and Chris Lyttle mentioned the critical importance of vocational routes as we move ahead in tackling underachievement, and that is undoubtedly the case.”
“It struck me, and I think that this is very important, that, if you embed a school in a community, the opportunity for the school's sporting facilities to be used in the evenings is vital. <BR /> <BR />Another thing struck me during my travels around schools. Look at the school enhancement programmes (SEPs), particularly those that focus on sports facilities or have led to new developments within schools. If you go back a number of years, there was a mindset that schools — it was apparent even in their design — were like some sort of castles with their drawbridges up.”
“Rosemary Barton made a very valuable point about allied health professionals. The Special Educational Needs and Disability Act that went through in the latter stages of the last mandate will be backed up by regulations, and there is also the Children's Services Co-operation Act. It is vital, and I think that this is accepted, that all statutory assessments are done as quickly as possible and that there is more collaboration. Work between the Department of Education and the Department of Health is ongoing. That has been happening for some time, but it has been a little bit piecemeal until now, and it is an important driver. <BR /> <BR />I will touch on a few other aspects that came up in the debate. The proposer and Ms Lockhart mentioned sporting facilities.”
“As somebody who is a little bit of a technophobe, I had to get the pupils to show me how it worked, but it was a very good example of the level of cooperation that is happening in our schools. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Overend referred to the collaboration between schools. In my experience, schools will, to a certain extent, compete for children, and some schools are more aggressive than others. However, it is very heartening to find that there is some shared responsibility. We have seen good sharing between schools, and that is developing and moving to a further level. That needs to continue not simply between schools in a particular area or schools in a particular sector but between schools in different sectors. That will be critical. <BR /> <BR />I want to turn to a few other points.”
“The evaluation of those programmes has highlighted a wide range of benefits. <BR /> <BR />This follows on from our debate on the community contribution and, indeed, the wider contribution in west Belfast. Two of the organisations mentioned in that debate, the West Belfast Partnership Board and the Greater Shankill Partnership Board, provide wraparound services that have had considerable success. Such interventions are wide-ranging. Yesterday, I had the opportunity to visit St Paul's Primary School, which is off the Falls Road. I saw a number of aspects, but one of the key things was seeing where there had been work between local business and the school to provide additional facilities. The school has an interactive wall, which takes interactive whiteboards to the next level.”
“The Department will foster collaboration between schools through area learning communities, and it will encourage parental involvement. A wide range of support is given, be it through preschool education, the entitlement framework, extended-schools money, the full-service partner programmes that were mentioned, youth programmes, or guidance. When looking at underachievement, a lot of the focus is also on early intervention: Sure Start, nurture provision, the early intervention programme through Delivering Social Change; childcare; and other targeted support. This year, for example, about £10 million has been made available through the extended-schools programme to service some of our most disadvantaged communities, and two full-service programmes are being piloted in north and west Belfast.”
“As the proposer, Lord Morrow and others said, that degree of parental involvement creates a culture of learning and a culture that values education, which is critical to have in the facilities and extends into lifelong learning.”
“Indeed, a number of Members who spoke, including the Chair and Lord Morrow, mentioned that there is also a key role for parents in nurture groups, insofar as they can help with some of the strategies. Nurture groups have also been able to build better links between families and community and voluntary groups. We also know that, when a community becomes involved with and supports local preschool, school and youth organisations, that can have a huge impact on the outcomes of the children in that community. Therefore, I encourage all communities to support their education and youth providers, and I encourage parents to become involved in their children's education.”
“Mention was made, particularly by the proposer, of nurture groups. The pilot programme was evaluated recently by Queen's University. I am committed to continuing to fund the 32 nurture groups, and, hopefully, that can be widened. Those groups have played a vital role, but it is not just about the impact that they have on individuals; they can have a strong impact on the whole school. Again, with nurture groups, it is not simply about what happens in a school; it is about wider community involvement.”
“<BR /> <BR />Many schools have recognised the benefits of collaboration, whether that is between schools, within a sector, between sectors, between the community and business or between other groups. That is vital. When you get that cooperation, it can contribute to pupils leading happier, healthier and more productive lives. <BR /> <BR />Education other than at school (EOTAS) services, which support students with more complex needs, was not touched on. Older children can be involved in EOTAS placements. That can be a valuable bridge because it can also involve community-based EOTAS, which providers can use to increase capacity and the overall flexibility of the services provided. <BR /> <BR />Crucially, a range of interventions can be made, and there is a key role for the community in that.”
“<BR /> <BR />For the vast majority of young people, the essential involvement is in a mainstream school learning with their peers because there is a need for socialisation, where they have access to the full curriculum and personal development opportunities that all our schools can provide. As with other things, schools do not and cannot act in isolation. At times, pupils come with a range of needs because of their backgrounds. Some of those needs will be physical, and some will be emotional and mental health problems due to issues that they face. Community support can be extremely useful in all circumstances, but, for young people who have challenges in their life, it can be of particular importance.”
“<BR /> <BR />The last contributor, Rosemary Barton, made a valid point on partnerships when she talked about outcomes. There is a wide range of partnerships, and I will try to touch on some of them. However, we all need to focus on the end point, which is the outcomes that are produced for children. In many ways, therefore, partnerships are very valuable, but, in and of themselves, they are a means to an end. As the proposer of the motion said, it is about ensuring that all our young children, regardless of where they come from or what their background is, unlock their full potential. That is important.”
“I thank the Members who tabled the motion and all those who spoke in the debate. In case there is any doubt, I am happy to support the motion. <BR /> <BR />There has been a broad level of consensus. It has been a fairly wide-ranging debate, as is sometimes the case in education. The broad tone is to be welcomed, and we have had consensus around the Chamber. To take Mr Mullan's point, we almost have a bridge between the parties and maybe even between Government and Opposition. The only brief nightmare moment was when the Chair of the Committee indicated that he had "informally" got into school. I have nightmare visions of Barry McElduff disappearing into Sacred Heart College in a school uniform. He is maybe about the right size if not the right age for the post. That is about as acrimonious as it got.”
“I humbly apologise. To be fair, if that is the worst mistake I make in the next while, I will take the approbation of the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />As we move ahead, particularly if there are innovative solutions that work for a community in a sensible educational way, there will be opportunities for some level of capital support. That is what has happened up until now as well.”
“We should end up with a more appropriate school estate in terms of numbers, and one of the other pressures from the resource side is that, at the moment, we do not have enough money to deal with all the school maintenance issues. Given some of the other pressures, that has been held at a level that is probably lower than it should be in an ideal world. <BR /> <BR />In a situation where we are trying to provide the best facilities for all our young people, it is a bit like performing the old variety act of spinning plates at so many ends of the spectrum. Realistically, you are trying to patch up so many issues that you cannot do it in an entirely adequate way. That would be a better use of resources. It is probably more of a resource issue than a capital issue.”
“There are two separate issues there, so it is understandable that there will be a degree of confusion. As we move ahead, there will be opportunities for capital investment in schools. In a situation where there is a need for a new build or for investment through the school enhancement programme, that ultimately will be met. The issue, however, is about the impact on the school budget side of things, if you want to look at it financially. The bigger problem at the moment with the breadth of the school estate is on two levels. It is on the education level, as has been indicated, but it is also about the pressure that is created on the resource side rather than the capital side.”
“So far, in the drafting of this, the strategic group has the involvement at chief executive level of all the educational sectoral organisations. That is the first time that that has ever been done. It has received the full support of the Education Authority. I know that the House sought long and hard to make sure that the authority was fully representative of all the different sections of our society. So there is that degree of buy-in there. As we move forward, it is vital that all sectors fully embrace this. If we have a situation in which one sector is moving on ahead and another is holding back, that would be unacceptable. If this is to work for the full benefit of all our citizens, it needs, not just now but as we move ahead, full buy-in from everyone.”
“Indeed, I have a spare copy of it here if he wants to get early sight of it. I can give it to him at 5.00 pm.”
“Given that, for instance, tomorrow is an Opposition day, the question was, "Do we release this and then wait possibly until next week before making a statement on it?". If that were the case, I think that the Member would be up complaining, "The Education Authority has released this, and we still have not had a statement from the Minister". <BR /> <BR />Alternatively, if we had released a statement on this at the first available opportunity, and it is not, in that sense, my document, would we have been criticised because we were jumping the gun? The Member seems, as with a number of things, to want to have his cake and eat it. I brought this statement to the House at the first available opportunity, and I am sure that the Member will forensically examine the document.”
“There is a process by which, if there is a need for additional places, there can be a development proposal or, if it is a short-term side of things, a temporary variation. <BR /> <BR />As for getting our numbers right, I said in part of the statement that, moving forward, this is not simply about the sheer number of places; it is about where there is a disjoint between what is being provided and what is available, which, as the Member would know if he had been listening closely, is part of area planning. That needs to be addressed in area planning as well, and we have to do it in a sustainable way. <BR /> <BR />I have made a statement that the Education Authority is releasing later today.”
“I have to say that I have probably given this a great deal more thought than the Member. There is a degree of contradictoriness in his position. I appreciate that there are schools where there is a degree of pressure on places. On the one hand, the Member wants for there not to be an axe on any places, anywhere and, simultaneously, on the other hand, he wants expansion elsewhere, which I think would increase the level of spare provision in places. <BR /> <BR />I have seen a number of schools recently where I think there is a need across the board for some level of upwards movement in their provision and in the places they could allocate. I am not going to name any schools because those would have to come directly as development proposals.”
“In some cases, that reflects a historic assessment of what potential enrolment figures should be, which is unrealistic in that regard. I think that development proposals will be needed, in some cases, to take those down. There is a desire across the board to grasp this in a mature fashion, to see change to the overall provision and to try to make sure that our resources are put into children, not buildings.”
“Once you add in those who are there on the basis of special needs, you find that the difference between the number of overall places and the number of children in the system is around 51,000, and that has been reducing. <BR /> <BR />I think that part of the purpose of this — I am very cognisant of the Audit Office report — is to be able to deliver the best educational outcomes for our children. Having that level of capacity is not particularly good. The Audit Office report talks about wanting a situation where the spare capacity in each sector is no greater than 10%. I will give the Member a breakdown of the concentration of spare capacity. At present, while there is still some work to be done on it, in the post-primary situation it is around 8%, and in primary schools it is around 18%.”
“I said that there is something radical about this in terms of the pace of movement. For the first time, we have all the key players around the table. What I am saying is that the concept of area planning has been there before. The fact that there is likely to be an overall reduction in the number of schools has been ongoing. One of the things that perhaps has not been noted is that, in the last 10 years, roughly speaking, there has been an overall reduction of about 110 schools across the sectors. <BR /> <BR />The Member asked specifically about the number of school places. Excluding superannuated places that do not count towards the total, the gap is around 65,000.”
“I thank the Member for the speech he gave there.”
“In ETI inspections, there is a tendency across the board for the overall rating of schools that are very small to be at a lower level than the average, compared with bigger schools. Again, it can vary and you can get some very small schools with excellent ETI inspections, but I think that there are particular problems that are put in place. <BR /> <BR />There is an educational aspect to this and there is also, I have to say, a financial one. From the overall budget, money goes in, quite rightly, to try to make sure that there are educational opportunities for people in very small schools. However, money to support that is being taken away from the rest of the system, so it is not entirely a zero-sum game. It is a situation where there is a degree of loss. All those factors are taken into account.”
“I understand the point made by the Member. There are a couple of answers to it. The sustainable schools policy that is being put forward has not been altered in that direct sense. Sustainability in terms of numbers is one key aspect. However, as I am sure the previous Minister would indicate, there are a range of factors that make up a sustainable school. It is not purely an issue of numbers. <BR /> <BR />We have some excellent schools out there which are very small; we have some excellent schools in terms of teacher provision. The problem is that, when you look particularly at multiple composite classes, in many ways, however brilliant the teacher is, they are always starting slightly from behind. It is not, I think, the ideal situation.”
“We are talking about producing the final document probably about January. The idea is that, within each of the 11 council areas, annual plans will be produced. In many ways, the format is not dissimilar to that under the previous Minister. From that point of view, the significance of this is not so much that there is anything revolutionary in the idea of area planning; in theory, at least, there has been buy-in for that for quite a time. The difference is that, hopefully, we are getting all sectors to move together on this and examine it together. Secondly, there has to be a realisation that we have had movements on area planning until now, but it needs to move more quickly than it has in the past. We have to grasp that, for the sake of all our pupils.”
“It is a high-level strategic document. It is about trying to look at the shape of the system. I have great confidence in the Member's ability to absorb over 100 pages at a very swift rate, and I will be free as we move ahead with this. It will go out to consultation, and the next examination of it will be when we get the consultation results in. It is an EA document, so it will be looking at any drafts, but it will need sign-off by the Department.”
“That does not give our children the best opportunity and often puts them at a certain level of disadvantage compared with a child a few miles up the road who is in a single class for their year group. Certainly, everything will be rural proofed, and we will make sure there is no particular disadvantage in this, but we need to keep at the forefront of our mind what the long-term benefits are for our children rather than the pure defence of an individual school.”
“If you look, for instance, at the primary-school sector, despite the brilliant efforts of a lot of our teachers, you see that we have a situation where 19% of classes in Northern Ireland are composite classes. That means that the same teacher is trying to teach at least two year groups within the one class. When you drill down into that figure, you find that 177 classes in Northern Ireland are composites of more than two year groups, which means that a teacher is trying to teach to three year groups simultaneously or, in practical terms, teaching portions of them. <BR /> <BR />Due to particular geographical circumstances, those sort of things perhaps have to happen in some cases, but we all need to accept that it is not ideal for any of our children to be in a situation where three years are being taught all in the one go.”
“Certainly, we want to look at what is best for all. On the question of the Education Authority taking the blame, I think it is important that we are all in this together. For any school, whether there is a closure, a merger or, for instance, a variation in its enrolment, all those will ultimately be classed as development proposals, and as such, the person who will have the final say on it legally will be me as Minister. I do not know whether Members want to line up the headlines to blame me already, but I will try to take my share of the blame. <BR /> <BR />It is about trying to give the best provision for our children. There are sensitivities with rural schools. However, I got some of the figures, and they are reasonably stark.”
“So, it is about trying to ensure there is full respect for all the different sectors that are out there and all forms of educational provision.”
“I do not want to prejudge the impact on individual schools. There is some work to be done in Upper Bann to make sure that we have the correct configuration in that. I accept that, within the north Armagh area, the Dickson plan has delivered well for people, and therefore I commend the work that is happening there. <BR /> <BR />I am also keen to ensure that, as I mentioned in a previous answer, we have a level of respect in our systems for parental choice. From that point of view, whatever changes, if any, there are within a particular area, they will respect the Dickson plan. The Dickson plan is safe and is here to stay; it will not be threatened in any way by area planning. It will be the same for those who choose selective or non-selective education: there will be no prejudice against any schools on that basis either.”
“It is about trying to find innovative solutions, and I think that a range of solutions will be provided and that all of those will be considered.”
“I think that we have to look at that as we move ahead. This marries in very much with an agenda that says that we should look at different solutions, particularly shared solutions. I think that there are sensible drivers out there for greater levels of cooperation between schools, particularly at post-primary level. I know a number of schools that are already signed up to the shared education projects. They are developing arrangements, for instance on minority subjects, as a group of two or three schools where one school provides a subject. I think that there is a greater opportunity for that, and I think that that is more difficult to do at primary level because you cannot take five children from P7 at one school and simply ship them over to another school to have a slightly larger classroom.”
“We need to have something that can deliver for all our pupils in the best possible way.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other thing is that, whatever one's view of what the final shape of education provision will be 10 or 20 years down the line, I think that the pace of change will move more quickly than previously. This is not something that can simply happen overnight because there are certain practical constraints to that. That suggests that, as we move forward, the examination is likely to be focused on the very smallest, the ones that are most difficult to justify from an educational point of view. People need not think that, because they are at an exact particular level, they are either safe or, on the flip side, doomed for closure. It is not as straightforward as that. We have to have a driver to realise that we are spreading our resources, both educationally and financially, too thinly.”
“As I said, it is not a hard-and-fast rule that states a particular numerical cut-off point. It is about trying to work with people to provide innovative solutions and also taking into account at times particular geographical considerations. On the flip side of the coin, we have to realise that the overriding support has to be in the best interests of children. Therefore, it is not a question of keeping a school open at whatever cost, even if that is not in the best interests of the children. I think that those considerations will be sensitive. When it comes to individual decisions, those will be driven by the annual area plans, and I think that those will be done in a sensible and sensitive way.”
“I think that we will be looking, as a Department, at how we can best facilitate that as well, and we may well be bringing some consultation directly on that issue as well. I think that it would be unrealistic in certain situations to see a school of one type close and there being quite a distance to a school of a similar type. I think that that has to be borne in mind as well.”
“I recognise that part of it is about parental choice, and obviously there is a balance to be struck in relation to this. I think that most parents are realistic. I think that parents generally want to have the best for their children, so it is about trying to provide that level of support. At times, some people will have a slightly unrealistic view of what can be provided, so there will be some people who effectively would want a school on every street corner. That is not something that is doable. I am conscious that, on the matter of parental choice, we do not leave schools in any of the sectors in a position where the removal or closure of a school would effectively deny that parental choice.”
“It is about focusing on the support for children. As we move forward, we have to be similarly cognisant — I think that the Department will look at this as well — of the situations in different sectors. Potentially, there are some very isolated schools, and, if a particular school in a sector were to close, it would mean, from a parent's point of view, that the level of choice would not be realistic.”
“The regional plan is meant to develop a common system for special schools that will operate for ages three to 19. The aim is to try to make sure that provision, irrespective of where you live in Northern Ireland, is very much the same. There is a particular section that deals with special schools. <BR /> <BR />There is a major challenge for small schools. Across the board, there will be opportunities, when people are looking at this from a community base, to ask, "What solutions can be provided?". It will not necessarily be a case of one size fits all. It will inevitably lead to the closure of some schools, but there may be different ways in which things can be delivered. At post-primary level, for example, some schools are already operating in collaboration. <BR /> <BR />We have very much an open mind to how we reach particular points.”
“Otherwise, this will not work to the extent that it should.”
“<BR /> <BR />I make it very clear that all sectors need to buy into this. I completely agree with the Member that this plan needs to be strategic, and that is why it is strategic. Members will find that, because the idea is to produce something that is strategic in nature, not a single primary school or post-primary school in the mainstream sector is named. It involves all sectors, and it does so at every level, whether it is drafting at a local level, operational at the working group level or the strategic planning group. <BR /> <BR />The draft plan and its proposals have been approved by the Education Authority board, which has representatives from a very wide range of sectors, particularly all the main education sectors. It is vital as we move forward that there is buy-in from every sector.”
“I thank the Member for her questions. We are trying to make sure that the figures are accurate not only for the present but, when the Member reads the document from the EA, she will see that it provides projections, particularly for the school-age population of each of the 11 areas, as we move forward to 2024. <BR /> <BR />When we are providing a solution, it is important that it is not simply what is fit for purpose in 2016; it has to take account of what the position will be as we move ahead, because we have to anticipate where the pressures will be. It is clearly the case that, over the next number of years, the overall school population of Northern Ireland is likely to grow by about 4%. There will be geographical divergence, with growth in some areas and a reduction in others, and that will also have to be addressed in the area plans.”
“We need to be realistic about the quality of the network of schools we need to provide and can afford. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I urge all of you to engage your constituents on the matter of education provision and help them understand what is needed and why it is needed.”
“This will be supplemented by an annual action plan each year for the lifetime of the three-year area plan. Those annual plans will provide details of the actions to be taken to address issues in local areas and at local schools. <BR /> <BR />Should there be a proposal for change in any school, local communities will be consulted and their views taken into account. I can assure you that the focus will be on providing quality education and pathways for all pupils. Pupils’ needs must come first, and if that means that, within our school estate, some schools have to close, I am prepared to take those difficult decisions. <BR /> <BR />I cannot stress enough the importance of this consultation for the future of our children and young people. In these constrained financial times, we have to act to maximise the impact of our available resources.”
“Is one secure sustainable school better than two or more schools that are constantly facing sustainability issues?. <BR /> <BR />I want local communities and their elected representatives to consider the Education Authority’s area plan and to make their views known. I hope that the draft area plan will be a catalyst for discussion about quality education provision in the 21st century. I hope that the focus is on the strategic issues and not on individual schools. In many ways, there will be the opportunity for people to look at individual schools at a later stage in the process. Once I am satisfied that the strategic issues are understood and agreed, the school managing and planning authorities will prepare a final area plan, taking into account the views from the consultation.”