Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“<BR /> <BR />Schools are provided with regular updates via email and text message, and I wrote to all schools in advance of the initial guidance being issued. My Department has directly advised schools when further supplementary guidance has been published and will continue to do so.”
“My Department has established the Education Restart programme, which, working with a range of stakeholders, will put in place the detailed measures and guidance that will enable a safe phased reopening of schools. I am well aware that my Department cannot deliver the Education Restart programme without the support and confidence of the education workforce. Over the last number of weeks, my Department has been working to develop the required detailed guidance to support principals and boards of governors to reopen schools in August and September. The guidance has been co-designed with a practitioners group that consists of principals from across all sectors. Their insight has been invaluable, and their willingness to work at such intensity, above and beyond their day job, should be commended.”
“However, the more that can be saved in the system through energy efficiency or reduced additional costs, the more that is available for the school budget to be ploughed directly into teaching and provision for the children, and that is something that all of us should support strongly.”
“We will always try to ensure that any proposals are as efficient as possible, on both the emissions and the energy efficiency sides. It is clear that one of the advantages of new build — using new technology and using space efficiently — is that it can deliver much more cost-effectively. It is undoubtedly the case with schools that that can create a certain level of efficiency. At one level, that should not be overestimated, because well over 90% of the general running costs of pretty much every school, whether the oldest school in the country or the world's most efficient school, will be staff costs. From a purely financial point of view, the amount will be of limited value.”
“Rather than try to give a short answer at this stage, I will correspond directly with the Member to give her a more detailed response. Having been at a school in Enniskillen, although not the Royal Grammar School, in the past couple of weeks, I was very encouraged to see that construction had started again. That school is getting a new build, and staff were on site continuing with its development. <BR /> <BR />As regards the specifics of Enniskillen Royal Grammar School, I will supply detailed information to the Member.”
“When it comes to any future call, everybody will start on an entirely level playing field and will be given the opportunity to apply and be evaluated. I am confident that there will be, in 2021, a new call to which all schools will be able to apply. Hopefully, more schools will be able to get the support that they need for their pupils.”
“I take on board what has been said. I hope to be able to visit a number of schools, and the Member has been assiduous in relation to the two that he has mentioned. All schools will be treated fairly in their applications. One of the slightly frustrating things, particularly as regards capital build, is the restrictions within the wider opportunities for construction and the budget. If we are to meet the needs of all our pupils from a capital point of view, the capital budget could be spent several times over.”
“I have already made it clear to two previous questioners that not just teaching staff but non-teaching staff, parents and pupils all deserve credit for the action that they have been taking over the last number of months and will continue to take.”
“<BR /> <BR />If memory serves me right, from a couple of the most recent announcements on the school enhancement programme, a proportionately higher percentage of those were from the controlled sector. Sometimes, it is about the choice made by the school. Moving forward, I will ensure that fairness and objectivity is always at the heart of any decisions that are made on capital spend by the Department.”
“I thank the Member for the question. I do not have a detailed breakdown of the 68. I should say that 89 were initially put in, but 21 did not make the gateway. Let me make it clear: as we move forward, I will always try and make sure that any criteria used are fair, objective and educationally sound. Sometimes, schools will make a choice between applying for major capital works or for the school enhancement programme. The outworking of that across a range of announcements will show that there will be a fair representation across the different sectors. It will mean, though, that if you isolate it into any individual set of announcements, there may well be a higher proportion in one sector than in another, so I ask the Member to look at this not simply on the basis of what has been announced today but to look at the wider context.”
“There is also a critical element in the contribution that can be made to our young people, given the very difficult circumstances that a lot of them have faced for the last number of months. They can, in a safe way, have some release during the summer, and a lot of communities will want to embrace that.”
“<BR /> <BR />An additional issue is that a key test has been agreed for any community and voluntary organisations, uniformed organisations — indeed, I think that it would also apply to a private organisation — that want to seek to run a summer scheme. Simply, there will be some permissibility provided that the organisation follows the guidelines available at the time. The Education Authority will issue guidance to any organisation wishing to do that. Whatever scheme is compatible with public health and does not in any way endanger public health, the Department and the Executive will not stand in the way of that. A lot of the summer stuff tends, by its nature, to be outdoors.”
“Ensuring that something is environmentally sound and, in a wider context, of an appropriate design contains a number of elements. Earlier, Mr Butler, for example, asked about ensuring that we have an environment that nurtures good mental health. It is about putting a range of things together. <BR /> <BR />On summer schemes, there will be different levels and particular actions. We might come back to this on Thursday, when I am due to make a statement to the Ad Hoc Committee. A number of schemes will be organised directly by the EA through its Youth Service. Those will included general schemes and interventions as well as schemes for special schools and at-risk children.”
“The idea is that anything that is being announced, whether through capital works or the school enhancement programme, is on a rolling basis that will enable costs to be met and ensure that finance is available. We can do that with a level of confidence.”
“Any new build that has been announced will happen. As indicated, one of the key roles of any project board for an individual school build is the identification of the best, most suitable land balanced with what is best for the public purse. That will be moved forward. <BR /> <BR />On a broader level, there is always uncertainty about future budgets, particularly the capital budget, which is likely to roll forward for a number of years. There is always a level of confidence that that will be available. That is why the approach is, to a certain extent, cautious. It is about trying to get the balance right. In theory, I could have come here and announced 20 projects, but the funding may not necessarily be there.”
“That will be of significance to, in any individual case, the school itself to see that built as soon as possible and also for the pipeline and ensuring that we do not have undue delays in the system. <BR /> <BR />It is also critical to the wider economic situation regarding the construction industry. It is undoubtedly the case that, as a body, the industry has suffered, at minimum, a level of disruption because of the COVID crisis. It is critical to ensure that construction jobs are maintained and that the sector becomes a key driver in the economy. I am happy to work with a range of colleagues, particularly, when it comes to procurement issues etc with the Finance Minister, who has overall control of the broader brush of construction, to try to ensure that we move ahead as quickly as possible with any of these projects.”
“I think that there is a challenge for all of us on that. It is also about balancing out where we need to ensure that there is also value for public money. Particularly with major capital works, one of the key aspects is ensuring that there is, for instance, a site search to make sure that it is on the most appropriate land and that we get the best value for money for the land. <BR /> <BR />The Member makes a valid point in that, broadly speaking, in a wider context of public works, we need to try to make sure that they are done in as timely a way as possible. Part of this is to try to ensure that, while there will be regular announcements, there is a pipeline of activity.”
“I give her that assurance that that will carry on, and I am glad that at least the people of Kilkeel will be happy tonight with the new build at St Louis.”
“I am always glad when I can make somebody ecstatic in this Chamber, albeit remotely. If we were to meet all of the demands that the honourable Member suggests, that may absorb the whole £156 million. I am sure that she would be happy enough if that were all spent in Kilkeel. <BR /> <BR />All school builds will be entirely fit for purpose, and they will cover the full range of potential with the entitlement framework. It is also the case that there will be work done. To determine precisely what is needed, there will be a process including a feasibility study and a business case. Work will be done between officials and the school to see what precisely is needed with the new build and the capital works.”
“I appreciate that a number of schools in Northern Ireland have not been successful today. That is not to say that they will not be successful in the future.”
“I will make two points, and I know that I will visit Dromore High soon. First of all, the criteria are always kept under review to try to make sure, as we move ahead, that any future call is done on as fair a basis as possible. I know that Dromore High has very strong needs, as do a number of schools. The other thing is that because nine schools have been given the green light, when it comes to the next call, they will effectively be out of the picture and will not be at the head of queue. That means that, when a further call is made, whether it is on this or on other issues, those schools that missed out today will have a much greater opportunity to feature in the top number. Once a capital announcement is made, it effectively puts successful schools out of the picture.”
“Consequently, that meant some re-profiling, with some stuff being brought forward at times. The aim is that everything — from across the considerable support of £500 million — is spent within the time constraint.”
“We have been working with colleagues on any additional support that can be there, particularly on a temporary basis, for the restart programme. It is ultimately a profiling issue. One of the restrictions that was put on Fresh Start — the Member will be only too aware of this — was that what was provided by the Treasury was ring-fenced to a particular amount of money. Therefore, if bidders missed out, they did not get another chance in that particular year. We have been able to some flexibility. <BR /> <BR />Wearing a different hat, I can say that that was initially secured through the confidence and supply arrangement, but it has been honoured by the Government since. It was about ensuring that all the money that was available through Fresh Start was delivered in that period.”
“It was the first element and I look forward to seeing the other schools on campus being opened as well.”
“It is confirming that, within the capital budget, further work will be done this year. Unfortunately, because of the particular circumstances of Strule, there was disruption caused by the COVID intervention. That has knocked things back a little bit. Strule is the biggest single investment that Education has put into place in any one site. It may even be one of the biggest investments that the Executive as a whole have ever put in, so it is a key priority. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the direct reference to the nine schools, that does not directly impact on Strule but it is a clear indication of the direction of travel and that there is an ongoing commitment to Strule. I had the great honour, along with the then First Minister and deputy First Minister, of visiting Arvalee School when it was opened.”
“If we can head off problems, prior to them happening, that is also something that would be welcome.”
“Bangor Central is part of the Fresh Start money, so it is happening. As is often the case, and particularly with a major capital announcement, it takes a while to go through processes. I give the Member an absolute assurance that Bangor Central and a number of other projects are happening. Priory Integrated College, for instance, is part of that. The Member may be very keen to slip a couple of additional schools into the announcement today but it is what it is. <BR /> <BR />It is important, in getting this right, that there will be a mixture of major capital announcements and, as part of that, I want to create a mix and also a school enhancement programme because that can also be the solution as well as other minor works. Despite circumstances, there has been a small increase in the maintenance budget this year.”
“It remains to be seen whether further assistance is possible from the COVID side of it, but, prior to that, I was keen to commit additional spend around mental health, particularly focused in primary schools which, to some extent, have maybe been the poor relation of that funding, but there are additional resources this year that will tackle the issue not just within the school system but in a wider context as well. It is a job for all of us.”
“That is part of the broader process. <BR /> <BR />With regard to design, there is much more imagination and thinking, particularly around the use of windows and open spaces which create a better atmosphere. Buildings can take us so far but there is a range of other interventions which, as all of us know, need to happen. They are happening to some extent, but we need to make sure that they are there. That is why, for instance, in this year's budget I have given additional funds.”
“Everything will always be tried to be done around mental health. I am conscious of what can be promised. All of us have the ambition to see zero suicides. Whilst there is a contribution with regard to the environment, it is a much wider issue than simply the school buildings. <BR /> <BR />One thing that has struck me is around designs that have been put in place. To be fair, from visiting school buildings, even with schools that have been built in the last decade or so, you will see that consideration has been given, in the design, to the impact of the broader mental health environment. For example, in a school that is roughly 10 years old, you will see a much greater use of space and light, and the atmosphere that that automatically creates is conducive to helping with broad schooling and also mental health.”
“First of all, I am happy to join in the thanks to teaching and non-teaching staff. I also think that we should be thankful for the role played by parents and students, who have been left at times in a very difficult situation, particularly younger children, and who must be wondering at times what is going on. I am certainly happy to congratulate them on that. <BR /> <BR />In terms of the specifics of the two projects, I do not have the detail directly at hand, but I will be happy to write to the Member with the detail.”
“In terms of the exact timescales, I can certainly get back to the Member. In many ways, it is a separate project, and quite often the nature and scale of youth centres will tend to be smaller than a major capital build with schools. That is why it is kept on a separate side of it, and also on the basis that it is not comparing like with like, so it will be dealt with in a separate way.”
“The other issue is that the school enhancement programme is essentially to take an existing building and, by its nature, enhance it. So it may well be that an additional sports hall is built, a science block or something of that nature. It will involve work happening on site. <BR /> <BR />With major capital works, there will be an examination of, effectively, what is the best site on which to rebuild a new school. On some occasions, that will mean a build which actually takes place on the site of the existing school, but that is not necessarily the case. A school enhancement programme will always take place on site. That affects the speed of turnaround, both in terms of size and the fact that it takes a major element out of the process. School enhancement programmes will typically be delivered a lot quicker than major capital projects.”
“There will be individual budgets that are tentatively set aside. Roughly speaking, because the bulk of them tend to be of a much greater scale, we are looking at around about £20 million on the primary side of it, for the three schools, and the remainder of the budget being spent on the post-primary side. Those will be adjusted a little bit as we move into feasibility studies and business cases. <BR /> <BR />On the school enhancement programme, there are two major differences which then lead to a consequential change. First, there is an upper limit of £4 million on the school enhancement programme. Major capital works are pitched above that. The school enhancement programme also has a minimum level of investment of £500,000.”
“It will follow, if you like, standard procedure, but, again, I will be happy to meet representatives of the school at some stage.”
“By their nature, major capital works tend to take longer than other types of capital works, in part because one of the issues is that a project board will have to be established in each case. Where those works differ from the school enhancement programme, not just in terms of scale, is that, as part of the process, there will be a site search. Areas will be scoped out in the local area to establish the best location according to value for public money and its fitness for purpose. That will, inevitably, mean that things take a bit longer. <BR /> <BR />In the current circumstances, however, there will be no barriers to that. We all live in a slightly more virtual world than we did a few months ago, and all those issues will be able to be commenced.”
“I thank the Member for her observations. I suspect that there will be at least 18 different views in the Chamber about which is the most deserving school project to be at the top of any list. That is why there always needs to be objective criteria. I will be happy to go down to Kilkeel or to other places. On a visit to Newry, I met all the post-primary principals from the Newry and south Down area, including, I think, representatives from Kilkeel. I think that there was somebody there from St Louis Grammar School. <BR /> <BR />The next steps in the process will be to work through the business case and carry out a feasibility study that will make sure that what is put forward is fit for purpose. In most cases, it will be a direct new build, but, if there is a different solution, that is what will be done.”
“That is why, as part of any process, the gateway check is there to make sure that schools meet the requirements of area planning. As time moves on, it is likely that there will be changes to the gateway checks. Some schools will fail to make it because of an artificial barrier in their numbers that, sometimes, reflects their historic enrolment. It is the case, therefore, that any announcements will be made on the basis that the school is sustainable into the future. The gateway check, therefore, becomes critical in making sure that we are not, potentially, pouring money into a school that may not have a future five or 10 years down the road.”
“That would be like comparing apples to pears. That is why there has been a level of separate provision. When I accompanied a couple of Members on school visits in the north-west some months ago, we visited a youth centre, and I think that it is progressing. I think that an official announcement was made about the work ongoing on that and the replacement. There is a critical role for the Youth Service. <BR /> <BR />It is the case that longer-term provision is made on the basis of ensuring that there are pupils to fill the places. Over a decade ago, when it was probably felt that there was a fairly open amount of money that would simply go on and on, a number of capital announcements were made without ensuring that that provision was future-proofed.”
“It is undoubtedly the case that, while good work happens in schools, that work is supplemented by those involved formally, particularly through the Youth Service, and by other organisations. I think in particular of voluntary youth organisations and some of the uniformed organisations. There is a range of settings in which, from a practical point of view, there is that level of delivery. I know that this is on a slightly different subject, but, as we look ahead to the summer, I am keen that, in addition to what is done officially through Youth Service, broad permission be given to organisations to take action over the summer, provided that they follow the public health advice. <BR /> <BR />The £10 million is provided on the basis that youth centres are slightly different from schools. It would be unfair if they were bundled in together.”
“What the best specifications are in the handbook is something that will always be kept under review to ensure that we have something that is fit for purpose.”
“It is important that whatever we do be future-proofed, although we cannot always simply react to the precise circumstances. The position, which is always kept under review, is that, whenever schools have been built in recent years, they have been built to handbook specifications on size. For instance, in the primary sector, classrooms in schools of a particular size tend to be 60 square metres or above. The problem is not with what has been built in recent years but is sometimes a reflection of the historical situation. For instance, we find that roughly a third of classrooms are 50 square metres or below in size. As I said, the problem is not to do with the specifications for new builds or any schools that have been recently built but is more to do with the historical situation.”
“If there are temporary solutions that can be put in place to aid that, they are to be taken into account. I will seek wider support for the paper that was put to the Executive. <BR /> <BR />There is also a challenge out there that may be more about providing other locations that can be used for supervised learning. If the voluntary sector, the community sector, Churches and others can assist by providing additional space on a temporary basis, the community should use the opportunity to pull together to try to provide it. We will work with schools to maximise the opportunities to provide space. That work will be ongoing in the weeks to come.”
“We have been working on that, and the Finance Minister is keen to be supportive where possible. It may be that practical solutions can be provided. One of the constraints on capital works is that there cannot always be a quick turnaround of that. We are in a rapidly developing situation. My aim is to reach a point that enables everybody to be back in place this autumn all the time. That depends on the wider medical and scientific situation, but it is not something that has been in any way given up or abrogated. Guidance has been issued. Some schools will be able to do it; for many others, the constraints on space will mean that they cannot, if the current environment still prevails. At present, we are making the effort to maximise space and numbers.”
“However, actions across the board, in individual circumstances, can be taken to ensure that, if there is inadequate provision, where something can be done temporarily in a particular school, it will be looked at. That will be borne in mind as we move into the autumn. We will try to make sure that we maximise the number of children who are directly into the classroom. <BR /> <BR />I am more than happy to meet anybody from any sector to explain the situation. Inevitably, in announcing successful schools, there will be a much greater pool of schools that will be unsuccessful. That is not because they are without merit; it is because, in the ranking according to the criteria, they were not ranked ahead of other schools that we could announce.”
“I am happy to meet anybody to outline the process. The position is that 89 schools applied, and 68 made the gateway check. By doing so, all 68 are investable. However, there are limitations on resources. One of the restrictions is that something can be done many times over. The scheme was announced in 2019 and scored according to the criteria in the protocol that was existence at that point. It is done directly and fairly, according to those objective criteria. It means that, at times, in individual announcements, different sectors may have different levels of success. <BR /> <BR />I am committed to ensuring that schools, as much as possible and where it is needed, will get that new school build.”
“On occasions, there have been announcements where there have been a greater number of schools and a longer gap between those calls. I want to make sure that all schools are treated fairly and are given that opportunity. Seaview and, indeed, other schools that have not been successful in this particular call will have that opportunity at the next call, and it will be in 2021.”
“I thank the Member for his comments. Yes, and I know that he has been lobbying on a number of projects, particularly Seaview, and that he has been a strong supporter of that school. It is important that we keep a pipeline of projects going. Therefore; it is my intention to make another call in 2021. That will mean, as is inevitably the case with any capital announcements, that those schools that receive will be very happy and those that do not will be disappointed. In some cases, some of those schools will be fairly high on the list, although I am not going to mention particular schools. <BR /> <BR />A further call will be made in 2021, and the intention will be to make sure that we have a number of calls, with perhaps smaller announcements.”
“That is something that I welcome, and I look forward to a resolution to all those issues.”
“I thank the Member for some of his comments, and I join him in thanking not only the teaching workforce in the current situation but the many non-teaching staff who have helped to deliver over the last few months and who will, indeed, continue to deliver. <BR /> <BR />The question was somewhat tangential to the statement, but let me make it clear that we want to see a resolution to all budget issues, including the victims' pension. That will be progressed, and there is common consent on free school meals in particular. I am confident that that will be progressed to ensure that we will have that provision for our vulnerable children. Particularly for free school meals, in Northern Ireland, the levels of funding for and, indeed, coverage of a number of children have been much greater than in other parts of the United Kingdom.”