Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
The complete record
Every one of 3,831 lines we hold for Peter Weir, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 32 of 77.
“There is also the minor works programme. Over the last three years, £10 million has been invested in minor works in Upper Bann. Particular mention has been made of minor works. When the last call was put out for minor works, around 6,000 applications were made. Mrs Kelly raised the question of the backlog, and we are in the position that, of those 6,000, about 600 projects have been completed, and they had to be prioritised. <BR /> <BR />It was said that in a number of schools, the top priority has been health and safety. There is a downside to that, in a general sense. We live in very different times. When Mrs Kelly and I were at school, that was not the case, though some of the younger Members for Upper Bann may have been at school more recently.”
“Carrick Primary School, Hart Memorial Primary School and Clounagh Junior High School are in the early stages of planning.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr O'Dowd mentioned the school enhancement programme, which has been a very successful innovation due to the fact that, in many cases, the best-fit solution for a school is an extension, a new sports hall or a new science block etc. So far, four schools in Upper Bann have received a total investment of about £7 million on the first call. Projects were completed at Millington Primary School, New-Bridge Integrated College, Ceara School and Donard School. A further six schools have been announced to advance in design under the second call. Design teams have been appointed at Presentation Primary School, Lurgan Model Primary School and Lurgan College, and the teams are working with those schools to develop those plans.”
“A further five major projects are progressing: Portadown Integrated Primary School, St Ronan’s Primary School, Lismore Comprehensive, King's Park Primary School and St Mary's Primary School in Derrymore. I appreciate that Members raised specific points. If I have time, I hope to come on to some of those. Those five projects between them will involve a total investment of £94 million. The projects at St Ronan's and Lismore are two of the biggest projects on the Department's capital programme. A major works scheme is also progressing at New-Bridge Integrated College through Fresh Start, and the total cost of that scheme is estimated at around £23 million.”
“<BR /> <BR />As Members have indicated, the importance of capital build in its various forms is critical. That is undoubtedly the case. Members have been around different parts of the school estate in Upper Bann, and others in a wider context. If the capacity and resources were available, we could spend three or four times the amount of money that is spent annually on the school estate, and still be on catch up. <BR /> <BR />Under the major capital investment programme that was initiated in 2012, eight schools in Upper Bann were announced to proceed to design for major capital investment. Three of those projects, Tannaghmore Primary School, St Thérèse’s Primary School and St Mary’s Primary School in Banbridge have been completed, and those projects have seen an investment of £18·5 million.”
“I may be looking for a hole in the space-time continuum at this rate. I thank the Member for bringing this to the House, all the Members from Upper Bann and the Chairperson of the Education Committee for raising the issues. <BR /> <BR />I have a few remarks. It is a sign of the extent to which all Members are committed on these issues. I may well have missed one or two but I identified a total of 25 separate issues. Where possible, in my remarks, I will try to address as many as I can. Unfortunately, maybe not in as comprehensive a manner as could be in 14 minutes. I will check the Hansard report and if there are issues that I have not been able to cover — I suspect that there will be — I will write to the Upper Bann Members with a direct response.”
“The point I make is that, in the vast bulk of areas in Northern Ireland, we do not have a compulsory curriculum. We have a range of options that schools can use. I am conscious also that conflict could take place between the legal permissibility of schools and legislation. Obviously, the legislation was passed at Westminster, not by this House. We must bear in mind the level of flexibility that will be there for schools.”
“We are working with organisations on the detail of that. I do not have paragraph 86(d) before me, so I will write to the Member with more information. I presume that this is in relation to relationships and sex education (RSE). We tend to differ from other jurisdictions in that we do not try to micromanage what is specifically in the curriculum. Materials will be provided, but schools will have a level of authority, in line with their ethos, on what is in the curriculum. We try to impose on the curriculum as little as possible.”
“I understand that people need to be given as much certainty as possible. Schools have a level of entitlement to decide what methodology they use. Within the bounds of legal authority, they can decide what the selection criteria are and how they order that. Obviously, schools need to operate within the boundaries of legal competence. I do not want to prejudge any legal information that is received. Clearly, that will determine whether that counts as a significant change that would require a development proposal.”
“As a result of correspondence that we have received, the Department has sought legal advice on whether that is necessary, and we are waiting for a final position on that.”
“It will try to look holistically at the needs of an overall area. That may well lead to development proposals, and those individual proposals, from a legal point of view, would need to be looked at separately by me. There is a limited extent to which I can prejudge particular areas, but it is clear that we need to ensure that what provision there is reflects the broader demographics and needs of young people in the area.”
“Broadly speaking, the area planning process is being stood up again. During the pandemic, we had to look at all aspects within the Department, particularly from a policy point of view and what had to happen immediately. There were also difficulties in simply moving ahead with processes because area planning, by its nature, quite often involves a wide range of consultation and meetings. That was not appropriate during the pandemic. While the pandemic is still very much with us, there is a desire to start to reboot area planning. The wider strategic area planning group is due to have its first reconvened meeting in late October.”
“I have indicated on a number of occasions that I want to look at the protocol, particularly the scoring mechanism for amalgamations. Either it should not form part of a new call or, alternatively, perhaps its scope could be reduced.”
“The protocol gives a little bit of flexibility around the exact timing. When there is a new call for major works, I have indicated that that will happen during 2021. That is not prescriptive that it will happen before 1 April 2021, but it will happen during the calendar year of 2021. The sooner we can get that the better. I have indicated that I want to look at the protocol because, while there was an important merit in facilitating where amalgamations were taking place, it did leave others behind; St Joseph is a good example of that. I am sure that everyone can raise schools from their constituencies. One of the problems was that although a large number of schools scored points because of very poor and inadequate physical infrastructure, in some cases, they were overtaken by schools that got points for amalgamation. That is unfair.”
“We have seen it happen, in various jurisdictions, with Ministers intervening to say, "You should be studying x or y," or a type of Big Brother quality in saying "So-and-so is a preferred writer" or "So-and-so is banned". We are not in the world of banning Boris Pasternak, for instance, as would have happened in the old Soviet Union. There also has to be professional judgement on the detail of what is in the curriculum. The Member did not try to do this when he was Minister. It is not really the role of the Minister to micromanage that but to give a broad opportunity and a wide range of options. The fact that our curriculum is less prescriptive sometimes than others works well in our benefit. You are right that, broadly speaking, the curriculum serves our pupils well in Northern Ireland.”
“I do not disagree with the Member. Maybe we should end there before we start simply quoting literary sources at each other. We have a rich tapestry of literary sources from across various jurisdictions. With regard to the curriculum, the role of any Minister is to set the broad direction and set the parameters for examinations. For example, if there are opportunities to say that, given the current circumstances, there can be a particular relaxation to the way that the courses work to allow for the fact that we cannot expect every student to study the full content of what would have been there in normal years, given the level of disruption. I am also conscious of the detail.”
“The key element with any of our qualifications is to make sure that no student in Northern Ireland is disadvantaged. The curriculum will have to reflect some of the changed circumstances that are there, and I hope to be in a position where that becomes very clear very soon.”
“We are in a position where the CCEA has drawn up advice on examinations and the curriculum, and there has been engagement on that this morning with, for instance, the trade union sector, so we are reaching a fairly close point. I think that, literally as we speak, a group of school principals as stakeholders are being consulted by our officials on what the CCEA has brought forward. That will enable a final position on the curriculum to be brought forward to me later on this week for either agreement, amendment or change. It is an issue that will move on very quickly. It is important that all actions taken be fully to the benefit of all pupils in Northern Ireland. That might mean that we can diverge at times, but we also have to make sure that there is a level of portability with our qualifications.”
“To paraphrase Shakespeare, methinks the Member doth protest too much in relation to that.”
“As I have indicated to the Member, I will have to wait until we get to the PAC hearing before I can discuss some of the findings in the report. I am not in a position to fully answer the Member, and I am sure that he knows that full well. In trying to advance the issue of special educational needs, a consultation will be launched very shortly on the SEN regulations and framework documents. Given the need for an additional level of support as we move ahead, that can make a change. Can we as a society do better in providing support for those with SEN? Yes, we can, but that may mean that all of us need to make some tough choices in connection with that.”
“It is clearly the case that I am very sad to see any child being let down. I welcome the report because it shines a light on what needs to happen. Indeed, there will be movement fairly soon on the issue of the SEN framework. At the moment, I am restricted by procedure in dealing directly with the detail of the report or, at least, commenting directly on it. It is due to be discussed at a PAC hearing on 15 October, and the protocol is that there should be no comment on the detail of the report ahead of that, so that limits the response that I can give. Collectively, we need to make sure that, as we move forward, the best possible services are provided to all our children, particularly the most vulnerable and those with special educational needs.”
“If we are to maximise the value that we get from that, we will need to look at the expertise that can be provided by third-party organisations. They can be part of a cocktail of measures to lever in additional resources. It is also about what is able to be delivered on the ground, because one size will not fit all. The response needed for a six-year-old in one location will be different from that for a 16-year-old in a different location, and, indeed, sometimes different responses will potentially be needed in a single class.”
“I have already met those organisations and I am happy to meet others that provide direct, front-line support to schools, such as charities and other third-party agencies. As well as the £5 million that has been allocated to education restart, an additional £6·5 million will go into mental health and well-being in schools.”
“We are conscious that, according to the business case, we will be able to allocate a specific amount of money directly to schools, which can then decide where the best interventions should be.”
“I expect it to be signed off very quickly. The business case has been made and the money is there and will be able to be applied. One of the initial elements, from an academic and from a well-being point of view, was that even if everything was ready to run from 1 September, that would probably not have been the most prudent way to spend the money anyway. There will need to be a certain level of individual assessment in schools of where children are. Indeed, it may well be that individual children in a particular class will have reacted differently to COVID, so we cannot just make natural assumptions. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that, as well as the academic catch-up that is needed, many children will have been adversely impacted and we will move to provide that level of support.”
“In addition to that specific COVID-19 support, my Department is also working collaboratively with the Department of Health, the Public Health Agency, the Health and Social Care Board, the EA and other Government Departments to develop a framework for children and young people’s emotional health and well-being in education. That is progressing well and we are working to complete the framework by December 2020.”
“By receiving their own allocation, schools will benefit from having the flexibility to use that money to provide health and well-being support for their pupils and staff and draw down on a range of programmes. I have also recently launched the Engage programme through which £11·2 million has been earmarked to enable all primary and post-primary schools to provide additional teaching support for pupils, particularly for those from disadvantaged backgrounds. <BR /> <BR />The Member will be well aware that in dealing with that issue, there is funding for academic catch-up and for well-being, but in many ways in schools, those are inextricably linked.”
“A range of measures is being delivered through the education restart well-being project in direct response to the COVID-19 pandemic to support the well-being of staff and pupils. Those include an Education Authority (EA) online portal of resources, which is available to schools with information on supporting learners, leaders and staff; the EA Youth Service "Youth Online" resource where children and young people can access information, advice and support; and a well-being helpline, facilitated by the Educational Psychology Service, which provides support to schools as they respond to a range of needs amongst their pupils. <BR /> <BR />Subject to business case approval, £5 million of education restart well-being project funding will also be allocated directly to schools very soon.”
“The Member says that, but we have a power-sharing situation. If, as I heard him say, Sinn Féin had its way, there is no doubt that they would simply have abolished academic selection and transfer tests completely, but the law enables those to take place. It is not a question of entire freedom of manoeuvre. <BR /> <BR />There is no point in somebody grandstanding on an issue, which then risks it simply being overturned at a later stage. I want to see a situation in which the two transfer test organisations come together and produce a single test. That is something that would ease the burden on parents and students. However, I am also realistic enough to know that getting agreement in the Chamber on selection is unlikely to happen.”
“I am glad that the Member can look into both my heart and my head. It is a skill that I am sure he has developed over the years. I think there are two issues about getting agreement on transfer. First, if I as the Minister were simply to go on a solo run and say, "Here is a DE test", I suspect something like that would be very quickly called in by the Executive as a controversial issue. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, we also need to give people a level of long-term certainty. If we have a situation in which one particular action in terms of a state test is done by one Minister, and then a different Minister, with a very different view, simply cancels that, you would be throwing people between different situations.”
“It is not a question of concentration on one issue to the exclusion of another. Even for those transferring at P7, there will be those who will do the test and those who will not. Our role, particularly as a Department, will be to try to make sure that that transition and transfer, in what are still going to be very difficult days ahead because of COVID, are done smoothly and effectively. I do not see this as an either/or situation.”
“Although I suspect it may come up and I may be able to make very brief comments at some stage on the Audit Office report, there is a restriction on what I can say directly about it. The report will be considered at a meeting of the PAC on, I think, 15 or 16 October, and the convention is that comment is not passed ahead of that. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that the Member probably comes from a very different angle on selection and transfer tests than I do, but it is not simply an either/or situation. As the Minister, the Department and I will try to do our best to look after children with special educational needs, we will try to look after the broader issue of transfer, and we will look after children in terms of their general school career. There is a very wide spectrum of things that we need to do.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whatever people's views on the transfer test, it is largely a competitive process between those sitting the test because they are trying to obtain places in particular schools. If we ended up with a situation in which, for example, 50% of primary schools said they were happy to do it and 50% said they were not, a child sitting the test in their home primary school, and another sitting it in a different place would not provide a level playing field. We have to bear that in mind as well.”
“I would like to see a situation in which we develop to a point where there is common agreement on transfer, but I suspect that is unlikely. The ideal situation is that every child would be able to sit the test in their own primary school. Part of the problem is that the tests are provided by independent bodies, who therefore have control over that. I appreciate that Members have different views on the test, but if we are to do it on a fair and equitable basis it can only be done if we get full buy-in from primary schools. While there are difficulties and additional pressures on children because they are not doing it in their own primary school, it would be a less equitable position if some children were able to do it in their own primary school and others were not, because that does not create a level playing field.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the test providers and host schools to ensure that appropriate safety and social-distancing measures are put in place in the test centres, wherever the tests are held, and that the Chief Medical Officer and Public Health Authority's advice is followed.”
“I thank the Member for his question. As he will be aware, my Department does not play a direct role in the administration or operation of the transfer tests, including their location. However, I highlight that, although until 2016 there were memos from the Department saying that primary schools were not to be used for transfer tests, when changes were made in the last Administration, memos were sent out that indicated that there is no bar to prevent any primary school hosting the tests. That remains the position today. It is a matter for the test providers and individual schools. The current arrangements for holding the tests have been agreed between the test providers and the schools that use the results as part of their admissions criteria.”
“It will be a very rare occasion that a large number of pupils will be in the position of having to self-isolate for 14 days. That will happen where there has been direct contact. One of the questions asked is if somebody has been told to self-isolate but has not been diagnosed positive, does their sibling, for instance, have to self-isolate? No, because that is one further step removed. It is about that precautionary measure for those who have had direct contact. <BR /> <BR />In the early days, there were sometimes different interpretations of that. It is understandable that schools will quite often take an overly cautious approach in the first instance. That is why we need to work directly where it arises in any school.”
“Sometimes schools will need to take very quick decisions and instantaneous action, and that might mean taking an initial approach that is arguably more precautionary that may then, in the light of whenever things are looked at, be beyond what really is directly required. There is a need for that close coordination between EA, schools and PHA. I know that CCMS, for instance, will also be trying to give a level of reassurance. In the couple of cases that have arisen, the issues have been to do with keyholders and the chain of command. There have been instances where principals had to self-isolate not because they were diagnosed positive, to be fair, but because they were in close contact with somebody who was diagnosed positive. <BR /> <BR />It is about trying to minimise the level of disruption.”
“Sometimes those schools may take a precautionary measure following advice to, for instance, have a deep clean, which would require the vacancy. However, there should not really be a situation, except on only very rare occasions, where we see an entire school closed for 14 days. That would not really fall within the public health advice that has been given about close contact. We work with schools on their individual circumstances, and whatever is put in place, there will always be some exception that may require a wider solution.”
“I am hopeful that that will be the case. <BR /> <BR />It is also the case that, as a result of this, a number of teachers were identified as "close contact". Close contact is clearly defined as principally those who have been within 2 metres for more than 15 minutes. In any school — there may be exceptional circumstances — that may create a situation where a group of individuals are impacted. In some cases, it can even move as far as a part or the whole of a class. It should not impact on the entire school, unless it is a very small one.”
“There has been that case and another case in Saul. In both cases, we will be working alongside the schools. It may be wrong to drill down too much into the detail of individual cases, but, as far as I am aware, both cases do not directly involve the children. In each case, more than one teacher has been directly involved. That has created an issue of staffing more so than an issue of teaching the children. We are working alongside those schools. I hope, in both cases, to see resumption of full school activity. Both schools are working with the Department and the Education Authority. As both are maintained schools, they are working closely alongside the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) as well. We want to get a resumption of those schools as quickly as possible, certainly before we reach the point of the 14 days.”
“For instance, yesterday, I met a group that deals and works with and provides support for children who are visually impaired. There are different challenges there. There will be particular challenges around a number of issues. However, the main aim must be to get the maximum number of children directly into class.”
“We want to find a way in which we can ensure that those are obtained, for instance, where some parents may be a bit shy or nervous about asking for a device. <BR /> <BR />There is another limitation. I am sure that the Member for Mid Ulster will know of this, as indeed will Members from parts of the west of the Province. Some work has been done on connectivity with BT, for instance, but there will be patches throughout Northern Ireland where, despite the best will in the world — you could have every device in the world — the internet connection is so poor that it does not lend itself to that. In that case, some schools have had to operate by way of paper packs. Again, that is probably one step removed. <BR /> <BR />There is also a need to ensure that groups are identified for the provision of particular support.”
“The Member raises a number of valid points. A lot of schools rose very successfully to the challenge of remote learning, but it was not uniform. It is difficult to enforce something that is completely uniform. Indeed, sometimes even the approach taken by individual teachers within a school will differ. Two pupils at the same school but in different classes may find that there is not absolute consistency throughout. It also highlights that, while a lot of very intelligent and innovative work was done, remote learning is effectively second best to direct classroom learning, as everybody in the system will concede. That is why the focus has to be on ensuring the maximum amount. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned devices. There has been procurement of devices.”
“However, the figures suggest a very high level of success in getting children directly into school following resumption.”
“Similarly, although it is taken on a slightly different time frame, we also have figures that relate to the number of teachers and education staff who are in. I will be happy to follow up on those issues but, in both cases, the figures suggest a very high level of school attendance. We obviously anticipate a dip given current circumstances. However, it does show that, in Northern Ireland — compared, for instance, to England and Wales, where the figures show that there has been quite a large number of absences — there has been both a very strong and welcome commitment from education staff, who want to be on the front line teaching children directly, and a very strong buy-in to and valuation of education from parents. A small number of children, because of clinical vulnerability, will not be in a position to attend school.”
“I thank the Member for her question. We are working with the PHA and the Education Authority to consider how best to provide the information in an accurate and timely way. The information that we have so far is that, over the last month or so, around 180 schools have made a direct enquiry to the PHA. However, that can be misleading because it is spread over a month. It is also the case that an enquiry could be simply about checking when somebody displays symptoms but there is no indication of a positive case. It can be something that is impacting on one pupil or member of staff, or it can be much more wider. So, the figures are potentially a little bit misleading. <BR /> <BR />We have figures that indicate the levels of school attendance. We are now able to gather those on a weekly basis, which gives us a tracker.”
“We will certainly look at that within any budgetary constraints. There is an onus on parents as well. Maybe I am slightly distracted by the nightmare vision of another generation of Durkans entering elected politics.”
“Everybody knows the extent to which, even in normal times, school budgets tend to get stretched. If we can reduce those costs, we can get a win-win solution for schools.”
“A lot of good work has been done already. The EA will continue to engage directly with schools. It is about that level of interaction. Schools are given a high level of autonomy as to what they do, but there has to be encouragement to find novel solutions. For example, the EA has used competitions, and we, as a Department, have worked with DAERA to highlight the use of plastic and try to reduce it. We want to get that buy-in. It is about schools themselves, or individual pupils through those competitions, taking actions to improve their own environment. The EA also put in place an incentive whereby, if schools can reduce the amount of waste that they produce, that can help to reduce their waste disposal costs. That will then feed directly into the budgets.”