Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“As I have indicated, and as the report makes very clear, there is a very clear linkage between socio-economic deprivation and educational underachievement. That is undoubtedly the case. That is why, as I indicated in my statement, there is key work to be done on the action points in the report, which will require key commitments from the Executive, but if there are wider issues on poverty to be tackled, they have to be tackled by the Executive as a whole. I am loath to entirely tick the box for the Member, but I am as close as I have been at any stage over the last year to agreeing with him.”
“Nobody has a clue what the Budget for 2022-23 is for any Department or for Stormont as a whole, so it becomes very difficult to give a firm commitment on what will happen in 2022-23, because that is at least a level of constraint. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the Member that, in the long term, we cannot be in a situation where we are trying to pluck down whatever funding becomes available; it has to be something that is mainstream.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the broader matter of funding, I indicated that a small amount has been set aside in this year's budget. We have a particular problem in that the Department's budget was set before the report was delivered, even at an interim level, which made it difficult to allocate money directly. Over the forthcoming years, we will need to see a mainstreaming of budget. In the short term, there may well be a situation in which we will need to rely on monitoring rounds in 2021-22, but we need to see the funding for this mainstreamed by the Executive across the board. To be fair, given the fact that the Executive, because of the current settlement with Westminster —. Because of COVID, the intention had been that Westminster would have comprehensive spending reviews across the board to give certainty over a period of years.”
“I am sure that the Member's wishes will be greatly on the mind of those who will make the decisions about my position in the next few days. <BR /> <BR />I certainly acknowledge that parents are at the heart of it. The extended-schools programme gives schools a level of flexibility to spend money and a lot of very good programmes have been put in place. As indicated in the report, the proposed RED programme is about trying to provide holistic solutions that will be monitored to see the direct linkages between schools, parents and communities. Earlier, I gave the example of the Shankill and the children's zone model there that is starting to produce dividends. It puts the community and parents very much at the heart of what is delivered. That is referenced in the report as a good working example that should be built on.”
“The report indicates that there needs to be a greater level of monitoring of that, and we accept that. Monitoring is important, but a level of flexibility also has to be given to schools to allow them to decide how they can best make interventions on the ground. It is about trying to strike that balance. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that there has been limited time to read the report, but there are specific action points in it on TSN funding. Those deal with better monitoring arrangements. That will have to be done at a more generic level so that it can be done through the ETI, for instance. <BR /> <BR />While there is perhaps a need for interventions to be better targeted, there is no doubt that they have made a difference. They have been made through policies of successive Administrations and have delivered for many of our young people.”
“From the point of view of life opportunities, some of those going down a vocational path will have a much more worthwhile job experience than some who go down a strong academic path. I agree with the Member. That will be for both Departments. The Department for the Economy is leading on the 14-19 education and training strategy, and I anticipate a report on that emerging very soon.”
“I do agree with those proposals. Considerable work, looking at how qualifications and career paths operate for 14 to 19, is at an advanced stage. Minister Hamilton and I commenced that work towards the end of a previous Administration. A considerable amount of work on that has been ongoing between the Departments. That work became a victim of the COVID situation for a while. We are now fairly close to a final report. There have been presentations to Minister Dodds and me. There is still a little bit of fine-tuning to be done, but that report will emerge very soon. <BR /> <BR />The Member is right: it is important that we reach a point where a vocational route is not seen as a second-class path compared to an academic route.”
“The Member will forgive me: as I was not present at the internal discussions about the weight given to the Youth Service, for instance, I cannot answer that question directly. However, there is awareness across the system. The Youth Service has a critical role this summer and beyond as we try to aid the recovery of our young people as they come out of the COVID pandemic.”
“The Youth Service has an important role to play. I know from having visited the Youth Service — and I can understand this — that it feels that, when people talk about education, they immediately think of schools and not about the Youth Service. I know the tremendous work that the Youth Service is doing on the ground throughout Northern Ireland. The youth services provided directly by the EA and also those provided by voluntary youth organisations are important. Uniformed organisations, for example, make a critical contribution in providing good pathways for our young people. <BR /> <BR />I indicated that I am happy to endorse everything in the report. It is an independent report. I did not try to interfere with any of the recommendations or steer the panel in any direction.”
“No single action point will be the solution; it is the combination of those points that will be important.”
“On additional levels of support, the report looks at, for example, tailored support through a new proposal to reduce educational disadvantage, which builds on extended schools. That will look at the links between the school, parents and the community and try to provide holistic solutions. I am sure that the Member will agree — I know that, in her previous work, she made a strong difference in this area — that it is not simply about support in schools, as schools do the best that they can, and that support in the home and the community as a whole will be critical as well. That points towards systemic change. As I have said before, if a single silver bullet could cure the problem, somebody would have been fired it before. It is actually about a cocktail of measures, which is why there are 47 action points in the plan.”
“First, schools in south Belfast do a tremendous job. In schools across Northern Ireland, there is a high level of dedication. <BR /> <BR />The report does not pretend that it can cure everything. The Member rightly mentioned the hurdles in young people's lives. This is about trying to find a pathway on which we can at least reduce the number of hurdles or the height of them. It would be strongly aspirational to say that we can get an entirely level playing field for everybody in society.”
“The strongest interventions that we can make on inequality, however, are before the child walks through the door of the school. We should not lose focus on that.”
“I have made it clear that I fully accept the report. There are widespread differences of opinion on academic selection. I will not be moving to remove academic selection, because doing so would enhance differences rather than make them smaller. I can be accused of this as much as Members opposite, but there is a bit of a danger that the issue of the transfer test and academic selection is a little bit of a hobby horse that we all ride, and I am sure that I have done as much jockeying as some Members opposite. <BR /> <BR />It is important for the report's action points to be followed through on. A particular concern that I have always had is that some of the discussion about transfer at 11, which will form part of the wider independent review when it establishes itself, will become the focus of everybody's attention. That is the danger.”
“<BR /> <BR />If work on the report ends up simply with DE going out to bat for a range of action points, yes, some of them can be achieved on their own, but it will be most successful only where there is full cooperation, not just around the ministerial table but in delivery on the ground between Departments.”
“That is particularly critical for early intervention and for support for emotional health and well-being. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Diane Dodds and I, and others in the Department, have also been working on other aspects of the report. It is important that there be a much more joined-up approach as we look to the other end of the spectrum of schooling, which is the 14-19 strategy. It is important that we have clear career paths. Too often perhaps, those sectors, be they schools or FE colleagues, have had a bit of a silo mentality. We therefore need to take a much more holistic approach.”
“I thank the Member for his question. There are a number of aspects to that. It has been mentioned that there must be a commitment from the whole Executive for the finance. That is critical. The overall ownership of the report by the Executive will be enhanced by the monitoring arrangements that have been mentioned. <BR /> <BR />The other 46 actions have cross-cutting elements. For example, if you look at the 13 early years proposals in key area 1, you will see that a number of them fall either to the Department of Health or to the Department of Health in cooperation with the Department of Education, such as health visitors and making sure that, while respecting data protection, there is a flow of knowledge, information and cooperation.”
“The Member, however, is absolutely right: parents have a central role and they cannot simply be bit players. We cannot talk about schools and children and forget about parents and the wider community. Unless all those aspects are brought together, this will not work.”
“I recently met the north Belfast primary principals' group at Mercy Primary School, where a number of parents were present. That school has produced prominent past pupils. I will try to describe that in a cross-party way. On the walls, there were pictures of Mary McAleese, Nuala McAllister, a former Lord Mayor of Belfast, and Nichola Mallon of the SDLP. Despite all that, I was keen to visit to the school. Mercy Primary School has a strong and successful record of engaging parents. The report highlights the fact that a lot of good things are happening in the school system, and it is in part about ensuring that best practice be put in place. <BR /> <BR />With parents, as with other aspects, if a single action could provide a solution to all these problems, it would have been taken years ago. It is about the overall cocktail.”
“The Member makes a good point, which is twofold. A range of early targeted interventions is being considered. Look at what Sure Start and other organisations do, for example, with health visitors in trying to ensure that that is embedded in the family. <BR /> <BR />One aspect of the report deals with promoting a "whole-community approach to education". The Member is right: children are disadvantaged in their verbal skills when their parents do not read to them before they reach school age. As the Member said, that is often because parents are embarrassed that they do not have those skills and that they had a bad experience at school. <BR /> <BR />There are good models that involve parents through soft interventions that draw them into that role.”
“<BR /> <BR />Those factors are part of the challenge. The report identifies that we should move to that position. That entitlement will probably require legislation. In other jurisdictions with full-time provision, that has been underpinned by legislation. That is a considerable journey to undertake. Moving towards that childcare setting is probably the biggest financial aspect of the report. The panel looked at the issue, principally from the point of view of children, but, for families and society as a whole, it would be advantageous.”
“As part of the broader childcare strategy offer, the aim is to try to move that up to a scenario in which everybody gets a package of four and a half hours. Therefore, it is not about creating massive numbers of additional spaces but about creating those on the basis of the amount of time that can be provided. However, that in itself will create pressures on not only resources but capital. For instance, in a number of preschool settings, there is a morning sitting for one group and an afternoon sitting for another. If we say that that needs to change so that everybody can be full-time, it will create additional pressures. Some of those will be capital pressures, and some will require additional staffing in the overall preschool setting. If you are moving to a bigger offer, you clearly must have more staff to deal with it.”
“There may be the odd tweak here and there, but, generally speaking, this requires additional money, so there will have to be ongoing discussions that go beyond what is happening now and well into the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />The statistics suggest that there may not be an absolute match between where preschool places are and where the demand is, but, broadly speaking, the overall allocation of places meets the demand. It is not a question of there needing to be additional places per se. The problem with preschool places is that we have a concoction of, roughly speaking, 37% or 38% of those places being what might be described as full time, four and a half hours, and the remainder being two and a half hours.”
“I take on board what the Member has said. Re finance, the Executive endorsed the report in principle and indicated that they would support it as resources become available. In a wider context, there is talk of moving towards multi-annual budgets in the autumn. I am sure that the Finance Minister will be keen to say that one of the restrictions is that we know the budget for only this financial year, and, of course, the report comes part of the way through the year. With that in mind, some money has been set aside this year in the DE budget. The Member is right to say that, if this is to be supported, it cannot be carved out of existing budgets.”
“A number of aspects of the report are cross-cutting, and is important that we get that level of cooperation, not only financially but in delivery. I am not in any particular disagreement with the Member opposite.”
“I thank the Member. Across the Chamber, whether I am quoting Winston Churchill or you are quoting Hillary Clinton, I believe, we all should share the same objectives. In working with colleagues, I brought the paper directly to the Executive. It is an NDNA commitment, which takes it beyond what happens in DE. We will work to start developing each of the 47 points. Some will be much longer term — things that, even if every piece of work were getting done now, they could not be realised for a few years — and other things can move a lot more quickly. As I indicated, we will keep everybody informed. One element of the report is that oversight goes outside DE to the Executive as a whole, particularly to TEO. From that point of view, we will be held to account on delivery by public opinion and directly by the Executive.”
“While they were all very well-meaning, a lot of them did not particularly work. It has only been when there has been a partnership from the grassroots up, supported by government, that we have started to see change. <BR /> <BR />It is also the case that, even with full implementation, all of us will need to have a level of patience. When we look at something like early intervention, that might mean that the fruit may be borne 10, 15 or 20 years down the line because it is about the impact on individuals. However, that is no reason for us not to do it; indeed, there is every reason for us to incentivise doing it as quickly as possible.”
“Specifically as regards boys in deprived areas, a whole section of the report is about maximising boys' potential. Within that, one of the action points is about using the children zone model, which has been quite successful in the Shankill area, in order to focus on a pilot programme in the most disadvantaged Protestant working-class areas. A range of recommendations are gender-specific because we all know that there is a large gap between boys and girls. <BR /> <BR />One of the other key strands that have come out of the learning and that, I suspect, draws on the children zone model has been the recommendations on the development of the partnership between schools, families and communities. As the Member will know, years of interventions came from on high, particularly in the Shankill area, to try to tackle those issues.”
“I completely agree with the Member. I thank all the panel members. As the Member will be aware, there is, if I may use the phrase, a considerable north Belfast influence in the report, given the membership of the panel, and that is right. The Executive have endorsed the report in principle, and we will look to see what resources are there. A small amount of money was set aside in this year's Budget, which was difficult to do because we did not know what the ask would be when the Budget was being set. It will require additional support from the Executive. <BR /> <BR />A lot of this is focused on early intervention, and, as the Member indicated, we are in a situation in which there is late intervention, which costs an awful lot more. There is an economic rationale but also a rationale based on the impact on individuals.”
“It is obvious that every Department will always seek more resources for the very worthy things that it intends to do, but that helps to bind in the Executive as a whole to delivering the actions because they are very cross-cutting.”
“Specifically, I am happy to endorse the panel's key action point 8 in the report, which deals with that. The panel says that the First Minister and the deputy First Minister should have, effectively, a monitoring role. It is important to note that, if we draw on an obvious education analogy, while the work will largely be done by DE, it will not be left to mark its own homework. That provides a certain level of oversight and independent analysis that means that, irrespective of which party is running the Department, the work can be monitored. That is important. It also buys in a much greater sense of collective ownership by the Executive.”
“You are right in that a number of aspects of the report are not simply Department of Education-related but relate to other Departments. You are right in trying make sure that the Children's Services Co-operation Act, in particular, is not simply at the very top but starts to permeate down through the system. We have, to be fair, had some improvement, albeit we are moving from a very poor position. If we look, for instance, at statementing, we can see that pretty much every child is now getting statemented within the 26 weeks. Previously, that had been a very long tail. <BR /> <BR />It is important that the report is not something that the Department of Education simply tries to put in place, seeks the money for and occasionally talks to others about. It is critical that we have that cross-cutting cooperation.”
“The spirit of what he sought is echoed in the spirit of the report. <BR /> <BR />Undoubtedly, a lot of really good reports have been done. Cognisant of that, the approach that the panel took was not to produce simply a list of recommendations or a vague wish list of things that we think should happen. Instead, there are 47 action points, detailed by evidence, with it being clear in each case who has the responsibility for delivering them. That is a step change. Ultimately, that will be met if those who have responsibility for those actions help to implement them. However, I think that it has given us the best possible road map towards ensuring that we can make a significant difference to educational underachievement in this country.”
“I will do all in my power. I do not know what the future holds for any of us on the personal side. <BR /> <BR />I have a strong personal commitment to this. It is maybe worthwhile to put it on record — I mentioned this at the earlier event — that, while a lot of people have been praised, I want to mention one person who is no longer with us. Around 10 years ago, I and my now spad were first introduced to and first really got involved in the issue of educational underachievement by our old primary school headmaster Derek Cummings. Derek had a passion for dealing with educational underachievement, particularly where it hit those who were socially disadvantaged. Through his efforts, he got me, Peter Martin and a range of others involved with that. Sadly, Derek passed away last month, and I pay tribute to him.”
“Therefore, I hope that that same spirit will focus our attentions as we move ahead over the next five years.”
“I would join the Member in seeing that that level of focus is maintained. Understandably, the focus and the headlines will be on cost. Probably two of the recommendations account for half the cost. It is important to say that a lot of the 47 recommendations are not particularly cash-driven, so it is about the willingness to take action. <BR /> <BR />While it is important that the report has emerged today, in this mandate, while I have been Minister, I do not doubt the efforts of previous officials in the Department of Education and previous Ministers to deliver on tackling educational underachievement. Even if we take different views across the Chamber on how that can be achieved, I would like to think that there is universality in a desire among Members to tackle educational underachievement.”
“I assure the Member that I will not be walking out of government — at least, not willingly. We shall wait to see what happens. There is an opportunity for us collectively to help shape the destiny of our young people. If we have political instability and a situation in which, across the board, the Assembly is not able to function, that creates a level of detriment.”
“It is undoubtedly the case that a heavy financial commitment is required. The Member mentioned £180 million. As he is aware, the £180 million is cumulative, so, in about five years' time, roughly speaking, we would need to spend £70 million more. The Executive are committed to that in principle, and, where appropriate and where we are in a position to give resources, we will give resources. Ultimately, that will depend on the level of resources that are available. Certainly I and, I suspect, whatever happens, my successors in title will bid for that money, because it is vital that we have that level of investment in our future.”
“To be fair to the Member, when his screen came up as "DM", I thought that he was about to put the boot in, but, for once, that was not the case.”
“It is of assurance to me that the SDLP and I are at one on these issues, and I thank the Member for his unflinching support over the last period of time.”
“We will always need to ensure that the common funding formula is kept under review to try to make sure that it is as fair as possible and is directed correctly, so the Member makes a valid point in relation to that. However, I am loath to see a situation where this is carving out of one school simply to give to another. We need to actually have that additional investment in education.”
“I take on board what the Member has said. There has been serious examination of the common funding formula. The conclusion that was reached was that large-scale change to the common funding formula will work only if there is a considerable level of additional resources. If we simply say to post-primary schools, "We are going to cut your budgets to make sure that there is additional money available to other sectors", there will be a situation where we simply rob one school to pay another school. <BR /> <BR />It is also the case that the bulk of the costs connected with early years interventions are not common funding formula issues; they are essentially funding issues before the child goes through the front doors of a school at all. It will require significant investment.”
“There are highly important things in this that the Department of Education can get on with and others that require cross-departmental and Executive buy-in. It is critical as we move ahead, even in the next mandate, that the Executive provide that level of commitment to the full implementation of the report.”
“However, if you take a look, for example, at the Early Intervention Foundation (EIF) report in 2018, you see that it identified that, each year, over £500 million is spent on late interventions in people's lives. Therefore, we need to look at some of the aspects of early interventions, which, from a financial point of view, are probably, by far and away, the heaviest commitments, and to decide whether we, as a society and Executive as a whole, can fail to put those in. <BR /> <BR />I should also caution Members that there are 47 recommendations. Many of them come at little direct financial cost. It is not simply a question of ranking those from the most expensive down to the least expensive as being the most important to the least important.”
“The Executive have certainly supported it in principle, as indicated, subject to available resources. Given the timescales of this as we move ahead, it is not even simply about the Executive's providing that between now and the next election: it is about a longer-term commitment from future Executives. We will have others from different parties in different positions in years to come. <BR /> <BR />It is important to realise that, while there is a heavy financial tag that comes with it, there is also a major cost to not having that level of investment. We see in the report that, by five years' time, the commitment would be around £70 million each year, which is quite a substantial sum.”
“I have indicated that we are working on the initial trials of that and will then require additional support from the Executive, because, as the report indicates, that will run at, at least, an additional £25 million per year. I will support that so that every child has the same level of opportunity. <BR /> <BR />This should not be about me. Frankly, it should not be about the Member either or any of us. This is about delivering for young people. The report provides a road map. I commissioned that report. I am delighted to see that not only come to fruition but to do so in such a manner that the whole Executive can endorse it unanimously, without disagreement. Therefore, it is, perhaps, a bit of a pity that others have sought to pick holes in it.”
“It is good to see the spirit in which the Member approaches this. He seems to see light at the end of the tunnel and wants to build more tunnel. <BR /> <BR />I have taken a range of actions in the report. For example, the importance of nurture has been mentioned. We have seen that 15 new nurture units have been established, in what are still tight economic times. If I had had the budget to do more, I would have done more. <BR /> <BR />As regards dealing with special educational needs, this year will mark the implementation of the SEN regulations with the commitment of an additional £22 million to be put in place for that. Similarly, with regard to childcare, I have indicated and, indeed, the report projects that there will be a move towards a full-time four and a half hours for every pupil.”
“I hope that Members will join me in endorsing the report and in giving every child and young person in Northern Ireland a fresh start.”
“That will not be an easy task, as there will be many competing priorities, but, as Winston Churchill once said:”
“Educational underachievement is an area of policy that many have endeavoured to change over recent years, but, despite numerous policy interventions and significant financial investment, it has remained stubbornly entrenched. That is due, in part, to its link with disadvantage, which, in turn, is linked to poverty. For that reason, there is a clear significance to Minister Hargey's publication of the expert panel's anti-poverty report in March and the outworking of that report. No child should suffer the burden of circumstance in determining his or her outcomes. <BR /> <BR />The Northern Ireland Executive have considered and endorsed 'A Fair Start. Final Report and Action Plan', with the expectation that budget will be considered at the appropriate time.”