Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“I do not have that figure to hand, but I am sure that we can get that for you. <BR /> <BR />Additionally, we have worked with BT to ensure a range of 2,500 Mi-Fi devices, which have mobile connectivity, and we have provided 8,300 Wi-Fi vouchers for disadvantaged children. More generally, the C2k education system supports online access to school services in a way that I puts us in a better position than some other jurisdictions. At present, significant elements of the service can be accessed remotely. All users have access to C2k's secure online learning cloud from home, and they will be addressed by myschoolportal.co.uk. <BR /> <BR />Nobody is suggesting that any form of remote learning is the ideal situation, and that is why it is important that we have face-to-face teaching. However, there are provisions that are put within the system.”
“Very briefly, because I have a number of things that I want to get through.”
“First of all, the Member is conflating two particular issues. This is not in relation to the Engage programme; this is regarding IT equipment. I have said that pupils across the board have, according to prioritised years, been able to access direct equipment, and that has been something that is irrespective of whether the child is doing the test or whether they are in a different year. However, it is one of the mitigations that has been put in place.”
“It is also that the tests are not an overall standard that must be met. The tests assess literacy and numeracy skills, which are core to the Key Stage 2 curriculum. Concern has also been expressed that some children may not have access to computers or home-based support if they miss school. Where this happens, schools will have contingency plans for remote learning that reflect the needs of pupils, so a number of measures have already been taken. There is the provision of IT devices to pupils in three phases: the identification of existing devices that are owned by schools, the purchase of the 3,600 additional laptops, and the purchase of 8,000 additional Chromebooks for distribution to pupils who are assessed, by the EA and schools, as those who are most in need. That includes P7 pupils, who have also —”
“I understand that both providers have made changes to their test arrangements by allowing extra time for young people to sit the tests. The dates are chosen by the providers. The only direct role for the Department on the dates is ensuring that the tests can be completed, results can be issued and transfer can take place on time.”
“I would be extremely surprised if, in current circumstances, there were no concerns throughout society on a whole range of issues. It is interesting to note that, of those who took part in the survey, 85% of parents said they still intend to enter their children for the test and 88% of young people who responded said they still intend to take the test. However, as I indicated, concerns were raised. <BR /> <BR />Before I move on to the broader transfer process, including criteria, I will say that parents raised a number of issues in the report that I want to highlight. Those include concerns about pupils not having enough time to prepare for tests and the possibility of further disruption to schools due to COVID.”
“I suspect that that is where the harmony on some of these issues may slightly diverge. <BR /> <BR />The motion talks about "contingency plans" arising out of the survey. I welcome the survey. It is only fair to point out that there are limitations in any survey, not least this survey. We have to recognise that, by its nature, it is self-selecting. It invited people to log on. There is no doubt that some people will have logged on more than once. Therefore, there will be limitations to what we can draw out of the survey. <BR /> <BR />It is also the case that those who have concerns over the current situation are a lot more likely, broadly speaking, to engage with a survey than those who are, generally speaking, content with arrangements. However, it belies the range of genuine concerns that are out there.”
“I thank the Member. It is good to see that working alongside you, John, did not spoil him at any stage.”
“He has contributed greatly to education, offered wise counsel and has been a steady hand and a steady mind throughout various crises, particularly in the years of the absence of a fully functioning Executive when he gave that leadership. It is important to place on record my thanks and the thanks of the House. Derek is universally respected across the political divide and the full education sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />While there will be a divergence of opinion on the issue, and I do not intend to divide the House on the motion, with the permission of the Deputy Speaker, I want to make one comment at the very start. It breaches protocol to mention any particular civil servant, but I suspect that the House will unite around the fact — this may be the only thing that they unite around in what I have to say — that it is important that I, as Minister, place on record that today marks the last day in Rathgael House of the permanent secretary, Derek Baker. He has contributed greatly throughout his public life to the Civil Service.”
“I did not catch what was said from a sedentary position. <BR /> <BR />Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the debate. I thank all those who contributed to it. It is not surprising that the debate has been on a mixture of the specific arrangements of this year with COVID, and while I appreciate that it was not the intention of the Committee to look beyond that, quite a lot of Members went into academic selection. It is inevitable, as Mr Allister said, as the two are inextricably linked. Indeed, there will be a suspicion amongst many of us who are supportive of academic selection that, for many, this is seen as something of an opportunity.”
“The right of academic selection is there in law. It is not some whim. Look, I am supportive of academic selection, but it is not some whim of mine or of any other Minister. It is there in the law. The Member should be careful not to misrepresent the situation.”
“— for the 7% who can afford to pay for public schools. That is the real selection by money.”
“I appreciate that the Member's time is limited. First, does he not accept that, in our two universities in Northern Ireland, we have a greater level of social mobility than pretty much anywhere else in the United Kingdom for working-class children getting in? Secondly, our academic results have consistently led all of the United Kingdom in both selective and non-selective education. Indeed, if we compare our non-selective schools in Northern Ireland with the schools in Wales, which are largely comprehensive, we find that our schools outscore them. A level of attainment is clearly achieved via our system. That stands in contrast to the situation in England, where selection happens —”
“I assume that the PHA will be able to factor that in to ensure that children get the flu vaccination and that the Department will continue to work with the PHA to ensure that that is the case. However, it is a lot easier to do that in a school environment when schools are fully functioning, which would, at least, mean that there was an alignment between the time that the vaccination takes place and schools being fully operational.”
“We will be happy to work with the PHA on the issue. Prior to the decision to extend the half-term holiday, we had intended to put a large number of children through this week. However, that would have been fairly impractical, given the fact that the schools are closed. The best way of doing it with children is probably by organising it class by class so that you ensure that the bubble is there. Even with that, we had, I think, worked with the PHA to see whether alternative arrangements could have been made over the next couple of weeks with regard to, for example, almost a drive-by situation; indeed, from that point of view, I think, a common position had largely been reached with the PHA. From what the Member has said, it appears that that has largely been overtaken by events and that we will see an overall delay.”
“Every year, about 80,000 pupils get a free bus pass, so it is one of the more generous systems. It would be impractical to take every individual factor into account when a child is trying to get to school. <BR /> <BR />We must also recognise that, nowadays, the vast majority of children are taken to school by their parents. When I was at primary school — I do not want to venture a guess at just how old the Member opposite is — large numbers of children simply walked to and from school, but the numbers using active travel have greatly reduced. All that has to be taken into account. There will always be reviews of the right way to do things in school transport, but tailoring a decision according to the individual will inevitably create disparities and inequities between individuals.”
“I understand the argument. However, if there is a range of situations where this is judged almost case by case, it becomes entirely inequitable, both administratively and from the point of view of fairness. You might find yourself trying to make judgements about, for example, a pupil having to walk to school. What are the pavements like? What support do you give in connection with that? What is the level of rurality? How busy are the roads that the pupil has to cross to get to school? All those factors would make it incredibly difficult to find a fair system, as it could always be argued that somebody had missed out or that someone else should have got more and vice versa. Let us remember that this is a situation where there is universal free transport.”
“Without getting into the technicalities, although I am happy to write to the Member with the details, attempts have been made over the years to ensure uniformity, but there have been challenges. Having been involved at local level, I have seen it happen with schools where there was divergence in how the distance was calculated, whether it was the nearest, if you like, physical route or as the crow flies. Where things have been wrongly applied, that has led to successful appeals. I think that a uniform system is produced, but I will write to the Member with the details of precisely how it is calculated.”
“<BR /> <BR />To some extent, we were in a position that decisions in the spring had to be made quickly, and it may be argued that not everything was done right and that we moved too quickly. We have to make sure that, where we have contingency plans, they are robust in all circumstances and are thought through. I hope that those plans will be produced as soon as possible.”
“I hope that they will be completed as soon as possible. It is also important that we get it right. CCEA produced initial proposals, which went out to consultation. Beyond that, a level of discussion took place between the Department and CCEA. That also involved the trade union side and stakeholders; for example, this was discussed with the reference group of school principals. There was then a level of discussion with other jurisdictions to make sure that nothing that was done would be so out of kilter with other countries that it would disadvantage our students. If I have my time frame correct, that meant than an announcement about the overall position was not made until about a week and a half ago. As part of that, we instructed CCEA to look at getting options for continuity, which is important.”
“Otherwise, we may produce very nice results for one year, but, in the long run, those pupils will be disadvantaged. It has to be about that level of compatibility.”
“<BR /> <BR />At times, there are a lot of advantages to devolution in terms of individual things that we can do, but I suspect that one thing that we cannot do as a society, although we may see ourselves, often with a level of justification, as a place apart or a special place, is go on an entirely solo run when it comes to examinations and qualifications and risk a situation in which what we put in place for our young people is either more difficult than anywhere else, which would disadvantage our pupils, or is simply not regarded by universities or employers as robust compared with other jurisdictions. We must make sure that, across a range of local jurisdictions, there is a level of comparability and portability of those qualifications.”
“No. There will be a slight degree of adjustment, and exams that were planned for November in the autumn series will have a slight degree of delay. As I said, having a situation in which examinations take place is the best possible solution, albeit with the range of mitigations that have been put in place. We are not yet at the final point of those mitigations. It is also appropriate that there is a situation in which individual contingency plans are worked out.”
“The quickest way to distribute the money is through direct funding. Schools get a proportion of that money and are able to decide. It is also the case that, leaving everything else aside, because individual circumstances will vary, areas will vary. For example, a school in the middle of Belfast may take a different view from a school in a rural setting in, say, County Tyrone. Similarly, the interventions that you would make for a seven-year-old would be very different from what you would make for a 17-year-old. That level of flexibility will be produced. As I said, we are also looking at additional work, some of which will be in the form of pilot programming when we have the mental health and well-being framework. We will need Executive sign-off for that, but that level of support will be mainstreamed into the future.”
“As part of the overall restart package for schools, the Executive agreed a £5 million funding package. We have made proposals, which, I think, just need final business case approval, and we hope to move on that relatively soon, probably in early November. <BR /> <BR />As with the Engage programme, that will make support available to schools, and they will be able to determine where, they feel, the best interventions should take place. I am conscious that we should not do everything on a simple top-down basis, because that would be trying to put square pegs into round holes.”
“This is important. The focus has been on the academic impact of closure and rightly so. However, there is also a danger that children being off school, both in the spring and now, will have a devastating effect on their mental health. If things are followed through in the way that they are supposed to be, it will lead to isolation among young people. <BR /> <BR />Two levels of support will be made available. I will take forward a broader mental health and well-being framework that was being developed pre COVID and has funding, which would be on an annual, ongoing basis. Obviously, there is also an immediate need. As well as the Engage programme that is dealing with academic catch-up, some one-off mental health support is needed to address the COVID situation.”
“Again, we will try to be of whatever assistance we can within the limits of what we are allowed to do legally. I am due to your speak to your colleague via a Zoom call on Wednesday. That will probably be about the wider context of youth settings, but this may well come up. I do not know whether that call will deal with this specific issue or whether it will be more about wider youth provision, but I will certainly be happy to look at anything.”
“I will be happy to look into specific problems in an area. If the Member writes to me with greater detail, I will get back to her. I will certainly look at that but am conscious that, presumably, I will be bound by what I can do legally. I will take all that into consideration, but I want to ensure that we have the maximum number of facilities for all our young people.”
“The problem is not simply what happens on the buses, and this is where cross-departmental work is needed. One of the biggest areas of complaint that I have heard about is the congregation of young people when they are waiting to get onto buses. Also, we should not forget that, whatever happens in a broad school environment, the biggest problem is the socialising that happens at a distance from schools. That socialising, rather than what happens in the more controlled environment of work or school, is part of the problem that we have in trying to control things in wider society.”
“I understand that. I will be bringing a paper to the Executive and talking to the Infrastructure Minister about that in an hour's time.”
“Let us call them the more-peripheral aspects, so, for example, I will be talking later to the Infrastructure Minister on any actions that can be taken around school transport. There is also a clear message for parents. One issue has been collecting pupils at school gates. We will need to look at all that. <BR /> <BR />The safest place for pupils, academically and from a public health point of view, is within schools, where there is a strongly controlled environment where education and health can be maintained.”
“No, I am not planning for failure. On that basis, it is important that we keep schools open. It is noticeable what has happened in other jurisdictions. Generally speaking, I do not look nostalgically across the border to the South, but they have obviously prioritised schools to make sure that they are kept open. It is vital that we ensure that our schools are kept open. The principal focus is on support for children. It also plays a key role for parents, the economy and for the future. We have to have a situation in which we do not damage the education of our young people. <BR /> <BR />I will be working with Health and the Chief Medical Officer. Where there have been issues around schools, they have not been within the schools themselves.”
“Just keeping the Sinn Féin bandwagon rolling on in relation to that. <BR /> <BR />The Member will be aware that schools have closed for a two-week period from today for an extended half-term break until Monday 2 November. The proposal that was put through the Executive was that schools will reopen on 2 November. Everything to do with COVID is always under review. As we move ahead, there will be individual disruptions to schools. We have given guidance on that. It is important that the level of disruption is kept to a minimum. That is why it is important that we do see that resumption of face-to-face teaching on 2 November and beyond to ensure that we give the best possible support to all pupils.”
“You could have disaggregated that to each individual pupil, but it is not necessarily about the individual application; it is about providing a level of support. <BR /> <BR />Below that, to ensure that there was a level of support for other schools, there was a smaller pot of money, which has been allocated, roughly speaking, equating to 0·2, 0·3 or 0·5 of a full-time-equivalent teaching post. In any system, whether it is on a school's level of funding or social-security-type funding, where there is banding, you are always going to get anomalies. <BR /> <BR />It was important that we ensured that there was a distribution of money to schools, and do not forget that that is all additional money. I appreciate that some schools will have felt that they got a good deal, others less so, but it is all additional support.”
“The system that was adopted was not relatively straightforward, because it was largely about purchasing teacher resources. We therefore could not have a situation in which 1,000 schools in Northern Ireland had differential amounts of financial support. That would not have made sense. From an administrative point of view, it would have been hard to put together in a short space of time. <BR /> <BR />Two criteria were produced. It is important that we get the greatest level of support where there is the greatest level of social deprivation, so there was a higher level of funding for schools that qualified as having above the average level of free school meals. Within that, there were, off the top of my head, four bands of funding according to numbers.”
“That request is less about whether there will be exams than it is about the likelihood that some individuals may not be able to sit an examination, depending on how we move forward, and those individuals will have to be catered for within the system.”
“We also need to ensure that examinations are comparable with those in other jurisdictions. Our students will be competing with students from other jurisdictions, principally at A level and to a lesser extent at GCSE, so we have to ensure that we are on a similar pathway. Part of that will involve discussions across jurisdictions on the level at which we pitch the examinations, because simply to return to the level at which they were pitched in 2019 would be very difficult to sustain, given the issues with grade boundaries, for instance, and the level of disruption that there has been. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned contingency plans. I have also asked the CCEA to bring forward a range of options for contingencies for 2021.”
“I will make three points about that. It is important that, if possible, examinations go ahead, because they are the most equitable and fair assessment of an individual's ability. Any other mechanism is always going to be second best to a certain extent. <BR /> <BR />The Member asks whether we can expect everything in 2021 to be done on exactly the same basis as it was done beforehand. No, that is not the case. That is why I took the decision that we have made on examinations. A range of mitigations has to be put in place. For instance, a range of assessment units has been removed from specific courses, largely for health and safety reasons. We have also asked the CCEA to explore optionality, in order to try to ensure that that is one other device through which things could be on a more level playing field for pupils.”
“That will help pupils to engage with learning, following lockdown, by enabling schools to provide child-centred, one-to-one, small group and team-teaching support by qualified teachers.”
“<BR /> <BR />On 24 August 2020, I announced a significant package of funding to help support the safe reopening of schools. That was supported by the Executive. That funding will help schools address some of the new pressures arising out of the COVID-19 pandemic and, in doing so, will protect our children and young people and those working in education settings. <BR /> <BR />The Engage programme is helping pupils across the country who missed out, particularly between March and April. Some £1·26 million from that financial package has gone to 79 schools in the council area. The programme will enable primary and post-primary schools to provide additional teaching support for pupils, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds.”
“I thank the Member for his question. An updated version of 'Coronavirus (COVID-19): Guidance for Schools and Educational Settings in Northern Ireland' was published on 29 September 2020. The guidance provides a framework for how schools and education settings can operate in an ongoing COVID-19 environment. Given that we are in a moving situation, guidance will be reviewed on an ongoing basis to ensure that it remains in line with the wider health position. <BR /> <BR />Designated link officers from the Education Authority are working closely with school leaders to ensure that individual issues are resolved promptly and to identify what more can be done to provide support. The EA has a dedicated COVID-19 helpline, and there is an FAQ section on the EA website.”
“Obviously, in my response, I have given the more general position with regard to the Newry area. As I said, I am happy to visit any school. I cannot comment on the specific details of the school about which the Member has asked. However, I am happy to write to the Member and give him details on the issue that he has raised.”
“I am glad to say that there is some movement now to restart development proposals. Obviously, Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta has a critical role to play to give its thoughts to sustainable Irish-medium provision in the Newry area. However, I cannot comment on individual proposals until the point at which a development proposal is put forward directly for a decision.”
“I would be very happy to do that. I have been to schools in different sectors. The Member's colleague Karen Mullan facilitated four visits in one day to Irish-medium schools up in the north-west. I have been to a number of others, including the largest post-primary Irish-medium school in Northern Ireland, Coláiste Feirste, roughly a month ago. Therefore, I would be more than happy to accept an invitation to see what is happening on the ground. <BR /> <BR />One issue in looking at a longer-term project has been the requirement for development proposals. As with lots of issues with COVID, the development proposal process has been delayed in the EA, sectoral support bodies and the Department, where not only financial but human resources have had to be shifted towards dealing with COVID.”
“I thank the Member for her question. It is a matter for the Education Authority, working with the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools and other sectoral support bodies, to bring forward proposals to meet the needs of children and young people. As the Member may be aware, meeting a particular demand is an area-planning consideration, which then becomes a development proposal and is published by the Education Authority. As such, the Department's role and, specifically, my role is then to give a verdict on a particular development proposal. Therefore, I cannot bring forward a development proposal or comment on one until it has reached that final stage. Legally, that would leave me in difficulties. Currently, there are no published development proposals for Irish-medium provision in the Newry area beyond what is provided at present.”
“To some extent, I have no problem with that as a general concept. However, we are dependent on getting those figures directly from DOH. The figures that we have, which are monitored by the Department directly, relate to the percentage of teachers in schools and also to pupils' attendance. Those are, if you like, two separate elements of the statistics that are monitored on a slightly different timescale but can, effectively, give an answer in each individual week. I am happy to publish those as well.”
“I certainly will try to do all that I can. The reason that DOH can produce the dashboard is that it is, regarding anything COVID, the central receptor of information. We depend on getting that in a format that can then be used by the Department.”
“As I said, those figures are held by the PHA and DOH, and we are working on those being revealed. The figures that I have currently are for a combination of the 333,000 students and 19,000 staff. The PHA has the breakdown of positive cases among students and staff. The total of 1,491 positive cases is from the overall school population of 352,000. I hope that the PHA will be in a position fairly soon to be able to give more detailed figures. I reiterate that that is a cumulative figure over a period of six or seven weeks rather than an individual breakdown for a particular week.”
“The fund for substitute teacher costs is being centrally managed by the Education Authority, and funding will be allocated to schools on a needs basis of verified cost. It should mean that, within reason, there is a provision for substitute teachers.”