Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“Alongside the Minister for the Economy, I recognise that the 14-19 education and training landscape is complex. We are committing to working together to progress the development of a 14-19 strategy. To progress the development of the draft strategy, the project has identified a number of work streams. The identified areas that the project is focusing on include progression and pathways, funding, careers, curriculum delivery and post-16 education. That is based on the original ministerial correspondence, which dates back to the previous Assembly; the issues that arose through the innovation lab in 2018, when it was progressed; and subsequent engagement with stakeholders. A wide range of those are being covered by the work streams.”
“Sometimes, it is about learning from the successes of the past, but it is also about trying to ensure that, where there has perhaps been a failure at some point, we do not repeat it. <BR /> <BR />On behalf of both Departments, we are open to having that engagement. The restoration of devolution will also create an opportunity whereby a lot of the groundwork that has been done, particularly by officials, can be examined by Ministers and scrutinised by the Economy Committee to make sure that what we have is fit for purpose as we move ahead.”
“I agree that they are central to the strategy. As we develop the 14-19 strategy, it will be important that it is fit for purpose and, given the learner experience of those who have gone through the existing strategy, that there is a level of future-proofing to make sure that whatever is done is fully available, if you like, and fit for purpose as we move ahead. For organisations such as the Youth Council and some of the further and higher education bodies, it is critical that, from submissions received and one-to-one engagements with officials, the widest possible amount of information be obtained. That can come from what is effectively a representative body of students or, indeed, from individual students' experiences.”
“<BR /> <BR />The engagement has been immensely valuable, with the young people clearly articulating areas of strength and weakness in the current provision. Their views have informed the work of the project and will support ongoing policy development. It is essential that the 14-19 strategy be focused on the needs of our young people. As its development progresses, we will continue to ensure that their views are central.”
“<BR /> <BR />The project has engaged with a range of stakeholder groups, including young people, parents, schools, further and higher education institutions, training organisations, work-based learning providers and employers. The engagement with young people has been crucial, and it has focused on their personal experiences of progressing through the 14-19 education and training system. To date, the project has met a range of youth councils, youth clubs, young people on training programmes and further education students who are attending the South Eastern Regional College, the North West Regional College and the College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE). The meetings have included young people aged between 12 and 25, who are from many different backgrounds and following a range of pathways.”
“I thank the Member for her question. Following on from the previous question, my aim is not to be stumped or bowled in the next 45 minutes by some of the questions. <BR /> <BR />The transition of young people into careers project is a collaborative project, jointly funded by the Department for the Economy and the Department of Education. The project aims to implement a more strategic and joined-up approach to the 14-19 education and training provision. Stakeholders are critical to the success of a 14-19 strategy. In recognition of that, the project has adopted a co-design approach, working alongside stakeholders to identify key challenges and build the evidence base that will support the development of a future strategy.”
“I agree with the Member that the answer to issues of attendance and underachievement lies holistically beyond the classroom. We have seen elements of good practice, particularly in parts of Belfast, where there has been that interconnection between the school community, the wider community and the parental community. Trying to build that nexus is critical. There are examples of good practice, and we need to ensure that we roll that out and get an understanding of it so that we can start to tackle those pockets of underachievement.”
“We need to tackle truancy. The Department is, for example, very much trying to indicate the value of education and the importance of school attendance, and that has been part of the campaigns. When you drill down into individual wards, it can produce relatively small numbers and create a particularly high percentage on that basis. It is undoubtedly the case that, while attendance overall is good, and, indeed, there are levels of academic success, we also have pockets of underachievement. Clearly, attendance at school is a key element in that. While we will look to see what measures can be taken in the short term, as part of the agreement, a panel will be established to look at educational underachievement, and attendance at school will be a key element of that.”
“There will clearly be a replacement. The Education Authority has direct responsibility for deciding on the location and, obviously, will look at the wider interests of the area, particularly around Newtownabbey, Ballyclare, Glengormley and Carrickfergus, to see what will service that. It is not simply that the unit has disappeared; a replacement will be put in place, and, from that point of view, they are examining what would be the most suitable site. I am sure that they will take on board the suggestion of Rathcoole and, indeed, other sites and see what location is best suited and most able to provide that vital support for children with behavioural needs.”
“I have often been to schools where what is provided is not ideal but would meet health and safety requirements. If there are health and safety issues, they have to be taken into account in any provision that we make, particularly for children with special educational needs.”
“I am aware of the very good work that has been done in Lea Green, particularly in dealing with challenging behaviour. A previous questioner mentioned health and safety: it is a health and safety issue that has been raised. The exterior of the mobile classroom was in a poor state of repair, and sections of the outer partition of the building had been damaged by storms. As part of remedial work undertaken by the EA, further health and safety reports were done in 2019 that identified additional issues. In order to support children who had been referred to those provisions, the EA has provided additional in-school resources as a temporary measure. To date, they are not taking any additional referrals. We need to have buildings that are absolutely fit for purpose and meet health and safety requirements.”
“As I said, there is an indication that the current situation is not fit for purpose and has a level of mismatch. I will look at the criteria. There is also a balance to be struck: if criteria are simply considerably widened, there will be large financial implications. All those things are interdependent and will be dependent on the available budget. However, where are at present in terms of the qualifiers and what is there in terms of the benefits system do not align with each other. At the very least, there needs to be a greater level of alignment, which, I suspect, will require some form of change in the regulations.”
“That would inevitably lead to a considerable increase in the overall offer that can be made by increasing the number of places that are available. To some extent, that will also have a role in the longer run in alleviating the situation to ensure that everybody is on a level playing field.”
“I understand that. At the moment, there is a degree of disjoint. There is a longer-term and a short-term situation. The introduction of universal credit has created a level of mismatch. We are examining whether regulations are needed to bring that into line and how that can be done. In the longer run, particularly for preschool placements, there is a commitment in 'New Decade, New Approach' to widen the availability of childcare, particularly for three- to four-year-olds. At the moment, around 62% of those who avail themselves of a preschool place are in part-time settings. We would ease a lot of the problems if we moved to a situation in which whatever is being made is made on a more universal basis.”
“When proposals on home to school transport are ready, they will be put out to public consultation. It may well be that, when that is done, it is done in an open-ended way, so that we can look at ways in which availability is either increased or decreased. However, they are cross-cutting issues, and they have an impact, particularly on the Department for Infrastructure.”
“The Member mentioned the significance of the date at the end of this month. It is clear that, shall we say, the production of children is not dependent on marriage proposals. I am sure that the Member will be aware of that. <BR /> <BR />In all seriousness, home to school transport is about balancing the availability of that transport with the public cost. There is a finite budget for education. If, for example, we were all minded to say, "Let us increase the eligibility for home to school transport to a much greater extent and increase the money spent on it", that would come, ultimately, at the expense of school budgets, either directly or as an opportunity cost to them. Consequently, that has to be borne in mind in any discussion that takes place.”
“This is about transport to schools. There is an ongoing problem in the use of car transport to schools, which disrupts the quality of life of a lot of neighbours of schools. I know that schools have tried to solve it; some have a tougher regime than others. Unfortunately, it tends to produce short-term relief that lasts only for a while, and then people will again encroach on the area. <BR /> <BR />If we can encourage more pupils to walk or cycle to school, perhaps by working with organisations, it will help ease the burden. It is understandable that many parents will take the view that they want to take their child to school in a car, and no amount of dissuading has an impact.”
“In short, I am not seeking to change the idea of academic selection. If there are measures that can be taken to make it a smoother or less stressful process, that is something we need to embrace. However, it has been, I think, more than a decade since the official tests were abolished, and we see more children going through transfer tests and academic selection, so there is clearly a desire for it. We have to accept that reality, irrespective of where we are on the argument about academic selection.”
“Again, I have indicated that you need to look not only at where we are today but at what the position would be if we did not have academic selection. I am tempted to say that I refer the Member to the answer I gave John O'Dowd at Question Time a fortnight ago. I note that the Member is at one with me at least on the first point, in that he does not want to see a system that is driven by the ability to pay. Inevitably, if we simply remove academic selection, that is what will happen. We have seen it happen in other jurisdictions. In England, around 7% of the school population attends public schools, on the basis of the ability of their parents to pay for it, and there is a range of private schools in the Republic of Ireland. Whatever is said about the current system here, I think it is fairer.”
“We have seen many prominent figures in neighbouring jurisdictions who have benefited from private education, but that is because they had wealthier parents. Whatever the flaws in academic selection, replacing it with a system that would inevitably have a greater emphasis on the ability to pay would be a retrograde step for academic achievement and social mobility.”
“As Yogi Bear once said, "It's déjà vu all over again, Boo-Boo". There is no doubt that there is not a level of consensus about academic selection at both an academic level and a political level. I am keen that we do not disappear down that level of rabbit hole. I am supportive both of the right of schools to use academic selection and of academic selection. The reason I say that is that, if we make a comparison with England, we see a situation where selection will happen, because there will always be schools that are oversubscribed, but the alternative they employ is that a section of the school population is effectively private education, where selection happens very much by the ability to pay.”
“England and Wales are very similar to ourselves at present. The Republic of Ireland has a much more centralised system. Scotland is not part of the same local management style, and therefore funding arrangements have a much greater level of central control. We need to develop what is appropriate to our needs.”
“Again, it is part of an overall position of putting trust in the professionalism of our teaching workforce.”
“I acknowledge the continued commitment and professional leadership that is shown by school leaders. Head teachers, subject to the agreement of their boards of governors, are afforded considerable levels of autonomy on a day-to-day basis that mainly covers responsibility for internal organisation, management discipline of their schools and the implementation of the school development plans. They also have autonomy in areas of workforce management such as managing absence and timetabling. <BR /> <BR />I am open to seeing where there can be other measures to increase autonomy. Whenever it has been mooted in the past, there has been a mixed bag of responses from school principals, but, in issues such as minor procurement, there is a good case for a more relaxed regime that enables, if you like, delivery on the ground.”
“To a large extent, any improvements to the layout of roads, places for a bus to stop to allow people to disembark or embark and issues with bus shelters lie outside the remit of my Department, but I am happy to work with others to see what improvements can be made.”
“As part of the Department of Finance's small business research initiative, the EA is piloting a new digital tool to improve safety on board buses, allowing pupils, parents and schools to use an online app to track the bus on its journey. A business case is also being considered on replacement of buses, and that will feed into the level of modern-day provision that can be made. Therefore, there is a range of things.”
“School transport lies largely with the Education Authority (EA). It is not and has not been in a position to make policy changes, but it has made a range of operational improvements to home-to-school transport to try to make it more effective and accessible, particularly with the launch of the online eligibility checker tool, which gives parents a much quicker indication of whether their child will be eligible for transport. That has been quite successful. Indeed, in the current academic year, there were 27,000 applications. <BR /> <BR />The authority has also digitalised its transport network to improve the accuracy of its eligibility assessment.”
“As we move forward and as part of wider home-to-school transport provision, we will look at interaction with other Departments. The issue raised interacts with the Department for Infrastructure's remit. <BR /> <BR />We need to realise that there will be a programme to replace buses. Ultimately, a bus can produce only a certain mileage, so it is not simply a question of buses lying idle. Although we want to make sure that there is maximum usage made of them, that may have the knock-on effect of those buses having to be replaced sooner. That will also need to be factored in. I am open to any suggestions. We need to see a much more joined-up approach across transport as a whole. I know that the Member has a background in community transport, and I am sure that she has detailed thoughts that she will want to share.”
“He highlights an unfairness that can create problems in communities. For example, in the post-primary sector, the family of someone who lives 2·99 miles away from a school has to pay the full amount, yet someone who lives three miles and 10 metres away will get free transport. There is a level of inequity there. Finding a solution is probably easier than stating the problem, but two pupils who get on a school bus at exactly the same point will often be treated in a different fashion. <BR /> <BR />If we reach the stage of having any public consultation, people can give their views on probably a wide range of options. What everybody would like will be against the backdrop of high financial constraints. The issue is not directly related to any particular school, but I appreciate the service that is provided to people.”
“At this stage, there is a series of options, none of which any particular conclusion has been drawn on. The overall distance requirement in either direction has to be on the table to be looked at. I think that the distances being used were produced in the 1940s, so there is an argument about whether they are necessarily fit for purpose. Balanced against that must be the pressure on the wider public purse and, obviously, the impact that it has on transport. <BR /> <BR />The Member highlights a problem, and it is difficult to find a solution that solves it.”
“It is important that, whatever point is reached in home-to-school transport, the schools are clearly accessible to those pupils and the opportunity is given for them to be able to have the fullest education as a result.”
“The Member makes a very valid point. The figures are such that the vast majority — I think, off the top of my head, it is about 67,000 out of that 84,000 — are pupils transported in rural areas. It may well be that, through a wider consultation, a range of options will be offered in different directions. It is important that those take particular account of the rural community. It is also the case that, particularly where there are amalgamations, we need to ensure that those are given sufficient weight and opportunity to bed in. Quite often, amalgamation will provide a good educational way forward and produce a sound economic way forward, but it will create levels of financial pressure in the first place.”
“My Department's ongoing review of home-to-school transport aims to ensure that the policy is fit for purpose and sustainable over the long term. The review is focusing on the current policy, and any changes proposed as a result will be subject to full public consultation. Home-to-school transport plays an important role not only in supporting the attendance of pupils at schools but in contributing to a number of wider government policy aims, such as the reduction of air pollution and of traffic congestion. By its nature and because, for instance, there is considerable reliance on organisations like Translink, this is very much a cross-cutting issue, and, therefore, if there was any proposal for policy change, it would be brought to the Executive. It is not a unilateral matter for the Department of Education.”
“An electrical issue or something else concerning health and safety may be identified, and that will supersede the pre-existing list, so there will always be an attempt to prioritise it. As with other issues, there are not unlimited resources, so we can do only as much as we can. Dealing with anything that puts any child at risk has to be top of the list.”
“The Member makes two points. There is a particular issue with some of the maintenance work. We need to look at where the delegation of budgets lies and give greater opportunity for lower-level procurement from within schools. That is very significant, and a later question also deals with that. <BR /> <BR />Where any maintenance or minor works give rise to particular issues of health and safety — I am not saying that all of those have been solved across the school estate — they will always jump to the front of the queue. Any risk to pupils must come top of the list. One of the frustrations, particularly where minor works are concerned, is that we have a ranked list of those works from the previous call. That is, and rightly so, subject to change.”
“There is a belief that an additional amount needs to be found for maintenance next year, which I will certainly try to do. <BR /> <BR />We sought a range of minor works a number of years ago. The very large pool of works that was produced is gradually being worked through. However, we have to ensure that the maintenance takes place at the same time. It is about getting the balance in the cocktail right.”
“There can be a slightly artificial dividing line between what constitutes minor works and what counts as maintenance. Financial pressures in maintenance will come directly out of the resource budget. <BR /> <BR />The figures are that £19·4 million was invested in 2016-17; a further £16 million in 2017-18; and £20·5 million in 2018-19, the last full financial year. The maintenance budget for this year is approximately £18·5 million. In addition to that, there was approximately £90 million of investment in minor capital works. With that cocktail of measures, the aim must be to deal with the immediate pressures to ensure that there is a balance between those and other more major capital works. To some extent, the more that can be directly invested in major capital works, the more that eases the burden on maintenance.”
“I thank the Member for her supplementary. On the Department of Education's mainstream funding, one thing is for sure: we will make sure that the capital funding is spent. Whether it is a mix of major capital works, strategic estate partnerships and minor works, we will make sure that there is the fullest delivery possible. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to look in detail at the specifics of St Joseph's. As the Member will appreciate, I do not have to hand the detail on the exact capital position of every school in the country. I commit to finding out the situation in regard to any delays at St Joseph's, and I will write to the Member in connection with that.”
“My Department will continue to bid for additional funding to enhance the school estate. If the Member can influence her friend the Finance Minister to provide that capital funding, the money will be gratefully received by the Department.”
“Although there can be certain situations where there is a quick fix because something is needed very quickly, it is also about improving the overall stock of the estate. A balance needs to be struck in the Department's capital budget to deal with immediate minor works pressures and the more strategic investments in major works and SEPs. If those are successful, the demand for minor works will reduce.”
“I thank the Member for her question. My Department has made significant investment in the schools estate through minor improvement works. The expenditure in 2016-17 was £66 million. In 2017-18, it was £63·8 million, and, in 2018-19, it was £84·2 million. The budget for the current year for minor works is £83·2 million, which is roughly about half of the overall total outside of non-ring-fenced expenditure. <BR /> <BR />Despite the increasing investment in minor works, significant demand for further improvement remains. As we increase the relative expenditure on major works and the school enhancement programme over the next five years, that will be an important element of improving the overall health of the estate in the medium to long term.”
“There is an unusual situation in teacher training: the role for the Department of Education is largely to prescribe the numbers. The Department for the Economy then produces the financial support for that. The detail of the curriculum is largely provided by the institutions themselves. A wide range of things need to be built into that. Again, I am not going to micromanage by saying what precisely should be involved in initial teacher education, but there is good work to be done between the Departments and the teacher institutions to ensure that teachers are prepared fully for the full curriculum that lies ahead.”
“As I said, I am not keen on situations in which pupils are taken out of school unnecessarily.”
“It is important that people express their passions and support for different organisations, but I do not want to see them being taken out of school to do that. There is a distinction between what people do outside of school hours — there is great value in expressing that passion — and disrupting the school day, which I am not in favour of. Ultimately, any discipline that is applied to a pupil is, in the first instance, for the school; it has to draw its own conclusion. I want to see it being done in a productive way that does not disrupt others. To take a leaf out of Mr Allister's book, it should be done in a non-hysterical way across the board so that we can have calm, rational discussions. These are very serious issues for the future of not only schools but our planet, so they have to be tackled in a calm, non-sensationalist way.”
“We should do everything that we can to encourage cycling and walking, and a healthier lifestyle at school level and, probably, around the Chamber would be useful if we all adopted it.”
“The role that home-to-school transport, in particular, can play is important. It has been encouraging to see schools working with organisations such as Sustrans to develop that. At the moment, 84,000 pupils each day are involved in home-to-school transport that is provided by school buses. Every opportunity should be taken to encourage greater mobility, either on foot or cycling. The current review of home-to-school transport, which we will come to later, looks at how we deliver the aim of reducing emissions. I have some nostalgia — although, quite clearly, it is not applicable in every case — about my own school days, when I walked to and from school. I suspect that some of those days are gone; as Members will appreciate, it was quite a long time ago that I was at primary school.”
“I will pick from the gamut of questions that have been put to me. As we are speaking in the Assembly, I am sure that the Deputy Speaker would agree that avoiding anarchy, where possible, is always a useful direction of travel. <BR /> <BR />As I indicated to the original questioner, it is important that teaching is based on evidence and science and that the issues are tackled rationally. People will have particular passions, but it is important that teaching is done in such a way that imparts the information in a balanced and evidential manner. People may be passionate, but it is important that they do not embrace a route that is disruptive to others. It is also important that we have respect for one another in how we express our views.”
“For instance, quite a number of schools have embraced Eco-Schools and the aim of getting that flag of indication that they are environmentally friendly. We need to encourage that and to provide that level of support where possible.”
“As indicated, as part of the overall process, we have been working with the Executive to see what wider context we can prevail on. My Department already invests in a wide range of measures to reduce carbon emissions in the school estate. That includes certain efficiency measures, such as boiler replacement installation, the installation of LED lighting and solar panels and the provision of energy monitors, as well as encouraging sustainable lifestyles and travel. While those are important first steps, the cross-departmental future generations group will seek to address climate change and mitigate its impact. Those, of course, are over and above the individual actions that a range of schools take.”
“It is right that we have evidence-based teaching, rather than any attempt by any Minister, of whatever description, to impose what they believe to be important through micromanagement of the curriculum. <BR /> <BR />The important thing is to ensure that there are opportunities for our pupils but that schools are not simply left on their own. That is why the role of CCEA in developing materials is important. It is the case that, while there may be particular teachers and schools that feel very passionately about particular subjects, they do not, in and of themselves, possess the expertise to draw down their own materials. Therefore, it is important that that bank of evidence-, science- and expertise-based materials is available to them.”