Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“<BR /> <BR />In the context of support for facilities, obviously part of the idea of the SEN regulations which are out to consultation is to have earlier interventions that can feed through to better solutions at a later stage. Ultimately, as regards the precise operational detail of what Middletown does, it has to have some room for manoeuvre. I do not particularly want to direct the centre towards that, but I will be keen to work with it. While this has not really stopped the operational side of things, as a consequence of the election in the Republic and the period before the Government was formed there are a number of vacancies at management level that need to be filled on the Republic side. The Minister gave an assurance that that will happen fairly rapidly.”
“First, while it is not part of the statement, I join the Member in wishing a speedy recovery to the lady that he mentioned. I am not aware of the individual case, but domestic abuse is always completely wrong, and it is right that there is legislative focus on it in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />COVID has caused some level of disruption to the Middletown Centre, but its work has been able to continue. It has been able, particularly in its online work, to provide a level of support to parents. I am sure that the Member has been down — I would recommend to any Member that they go down — to Middletown to see the good work that is being done there. Interestingly, what probably was plan A for the centre going back six, seven, eight years or however long it was actually was not realised, but plan B turned out to be a better vehicle.”
“That is not simply about copying things that have worked successfully; at times, it may also be about people saying, "Here is something that was tried but did not work so should be avoided". It is about getting all that rich experience and having it feeding in from different points to the panel.”
“The information from the evaluation report has been fed into the expert panel and has been provided to it along with a wide range of other pieces of evidence. One of the advantages for the expert panel is that there is a bank of knowledge on and good experience of underachievement. Whether it is happening in the Republic of Ireland, in parts of Northern Ireland, or indeed, England, Scotland, Wales or internationally, that information can feed into it. <BR /> <BR />None of us should be conceited enough to believe that we always have all the answers. We can learn from experience, and how things are tackled across the board will be fed into the expert panel.”
“There are a couple of aspects to that. There has been engagement prior to the NSMC meeting with experts sharing their experience of underachievement. That will be fed in. The work of the delivering equality of opportunity in schools system can also feed into that. The panel started in September, and it is my understanding that, up until the middle of October, there were 401 direct responses to the online consultation. I understand that, over the period up to January 2021, at least 20 oral sessions will be established by the education panel, with, as indicated, the aim of having a completed report by May 2021.”
“However, if we can take some positive element from COVID, it is how we apply some of the lessons of COVID to see whether there are better ways. A lot of that will be on sharing information, sharing best practice and sharing knowledge. Are there ways that we can learn from COVID to provide better ways for our young people and capture some of the accidental successes that have occurred because of it and apply them across the education system?”
“There is a good opportunity, with the Executive having resumed this year and with a new Government in the Republic, for a stocktake and to see what can happen in the forward work programme. <BR /> <BR />At a certain level, all these things are work in progress. There is no doubt that COVID has had an impact across a number of sectors in education, here and in other jurisdictions. To some extent, in the Department of Education here and in that in the Republic of Ireland, there has been a shift to fight the immediate issues of COVID with whatever staff are available. That happens on a range of issues; for example, there has been a shift away from area planning to what has to happen immediately. <BR /> <BR />Similarly, in any engagement on future work programmes, there is no doubt that some time delay has been created.”
“<BR /> <BR />While the principal focus in special educational needs was on the specifics of Middletown, in my discussions with Minister Foley, the importance of schools being open, particularly for special educational needs pupils, was recognised on both sides of the border and, indeed, beyond. What has happened in Great Britain has shown that the desire to ensure that schools are kept open is a priority, and the Executive share that desire.”
“That is similar to a previous question. Ensuring that schools remain open is paramount for all pupils, but the particular focus on those with special educational needs is shared on both sides of the border. It is noticeable that the Republic of Ireland, which has different levels of COVID restrictions, when moving to level 5, did so on the basis of protecting educational institutions, particularly schools. <BR /> <BR />Any experience of meeting children with special educational needs indicates the particular importance of keeping those schools open, not only to allow face-to-face learning but from a broader social point of view. In sending out any signal, there has to be recognition of every child across the system.”
“The UK Government, which will handle some of the qualifications, are keen to have professional mobility and keen to see that reflected in the common travel area. We were aiming for a seamless internal UK labour market for professionals, with a bilateral agreement that could comprehensively address and sort out any future teacher recognition arrangements.”
“I thank the Member for her questions. She will be aware that the GTCNI will look after it from a Northern Ireland perspective; the Teaching Council of Ireland (TCI), the equivalent registration body in the South, will look after it there. Then, it is about ensuring that those who have, for instance, a UK BEd or PGCE qualification are able to obtain registration with the TCI and, similarly, that TCI-registered teachers can be recognised by the GTCNI. <BR /> <BR />Elements of the current mutual recognition arrangements are based on the EU mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive. That will cease at the end of the EU period. Applicants from outside that will also need to be assessed.”
“As the Member will be aware, teaching councils, for instance, operate in different formats in different parts of not just the United Kingdom but the Republic of Ireland. One of the things that the pandemic has shown is that there is a need for mutual recognition of qualifications, because, particularly with teaching, we do not know at what stage in different jurisdictions people will seek to go beyond their own boundaries — this is not just in regard to education — to be able draw and seek, if you like, experience and help from outside their jurisdiction. There is a broader critical element in dealing with the mutual recognition of qualifications. That is ongoing in an attempt to create, at least, a bilateral arrangement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland on teaching qualifications.”
“Arising out of that, Minister Foley — at that stage, she was relatively new in post — and I had a direct informal one-to-one meeting that touched on a number of those issues. <BR /> <BR />As regards mutual recognition, the position is that that has previously been facilitated through the EU. Good work is being done on that. It may well be that, as part of the overall settlement that arises — if it arises — between the UK and the EU, there is a level of acceptance on the mutual recognition of qualifications. As I said, work is ongoing to see what can be done on a bilateral basis. It is noticeable — this fits in neatly with that level of recognition — that, in the Internal Market Bill that is passing through the UK Parliament, there are those mutual recognitions between the various jurisdictions in the United Kingdom.”
“I am not aware of any particular problems that the ETI has with the Irish-medium sector directly. Obviously, the ETI has been restricted in what it has been able to do throughout the pandemic. Indeed, like others, the ETI has, at least on a temporary basis, had to reorient itself. The work that the ETI and the EA have done in providing link officers for schools has been very useful, but, on the level of inspection and input — there is a strong case that inspections should operate on a more thematic basis anyway — there has clearly been some change. <BR /> <BR />We are giving a report on where we are at present. We had an opportunity to discuss the issues when the NSMC met at Dublin Castle during the summer, although the meeting was not formally in education sectoral format.”
“There was a shared indication from everyone that the sooner we can move back to a point at which it is safe to have direct interaction, between students in particular and teachers, on a shared education basis, the better we can get the richest harvest from that investment.”
“The overriding driver in shared education is the direct shared experience of people meeting face to face. We are trying to ensure that, in terms of health protections, there is as little mixing between schools as possible and as little mixing within schools, so quite often classes have to form a bubble. That creates a direct face-to-face barrier, which then acts in a counter-intuitive way to what we want to happen with shared education. However, shared education is being taken forward, and the projects have been able to continue. From that point of view, nothing has been abandoned, but a lot of the sharing has had to shift much more to an online experience.”
“I will take those in reverse order. I am due to meet representatives from SCoTENS at, I think, the end of this month, so we will be able to discuss that level of support then. Obviously, I cannot prejudge the outcome until I have the meeting. <BR /> <BR />On shared education, last week, I think, Mr Murphy gave a report on the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB), which leads to some of the Peace funding. It is the case that all projects have been able to move ahead. However, the projects, particularly those on shared education, have been reoriented. It has therefore been about shared learning at this stage, and a lot of that has been done online. <BR /> <BR />One of the many difficulties that has arisen from COVID is with the provision of shared education, which everyone would manifestly accept is of benefit.”
“It is critical from the point of view of the development of children and from a social point of view. I think that, North/South, there is a common determination to see that schools are kept open as much as possible and prioritised. There is nowhere that that is more important than for children with special educational needs.”
“I think that there was a realisation in the discussion on special educational needs that took place during the NSMC meeting. That discussion principally focused on the Middletown Centre for Autism, which is obviously the one area that is of direct common concern. However, I think that there has been an acceptance that there is a need and, indeed, that there was probably a limited level of supply of supports in terms of schools being open during the early parts of the pandemic across the board. There was, in particular, probably limited support for special educational needs. There is a strong imperative, particularly on special schools, to be open. Last week, I was able to visit Arvalee in Omagh. It provides a considerable service that goes beyond simply the educational provision there.”
“I appreciate that it does not directly relate to the statement. However, we have given instructions to the Education Authority (EA) to work in the area of special educational needs. First, we should remember that the Engage programme runs across schools. Therefore, for the vast majority of children who are statemented, for instance, they will be operating through mainstream schools, which will enable that. <BR /> <BR />On the issue of direct intervention for children who are in special schools, there is a need for something that is more bespoke and individually exercised. We have asked the EA, which has overall responsibility for special educational needs, to work with those schools and the individuals in them to make sure that any level of academic catch-up takes place for them.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ministers welcomed the continuing collaboration of the education inspectorates, which covers capacity-building for the Education and Training Inspectorate's (ETI) inspection of new Irish-medium education; the ongoing programme of inspection exchanges and joint working on inspections; the collaborative support in carrying out independent evaluations on projects; and the cooperation between the management of both inspectorates. <BR /> <BR />My officials and I look forward to working with Minister Foley and her Department as we meet the challenges of responding to the current health crisis and the future challenges and opportunities that will be presented as the UK leaves the European Union.”
“<BR /> <BR />On school, youth and teacher exchanges, the Council noted North/South exchanges in the area of youth work practices and the ongoing activities of the North/South education and training standards committee for youth work. <BR /> <BR />On teacher qualifications, the NSMC noted the procedures being explored to facilitate the reciprocal recognition of teacher qualifications in the context of the UK's withdrawal from the EU. It also noted the update on the agreement between the Marino Institute of Education and St Mary's University College regarding the delivery of the SCG. <BR /> <BR />The Council was advised that the eighteenth annual conference of the Standing Conference on Teacher Education North and South (SCoTENS) on the theme of "Teacher Education in the COVID Moment" took place online on 21 October 2020.”
“<BR /> <BR />On special educational needs, the Ministers welcomed the progress being made by the two Education Departments and Middletown Centre for Autism (MCA) to facilitate and maintain the delivery of the centre’s range of services since the previous meeting in 2016. The Council welcomed the efforts of Middletown Centre for Autism management and staff to remain operational and the continued delivery of elements of their service throughout the COVID-19 restrictions. The proposed delivery plan for the centre, which takes account of the impacts of COVID-19 and the delay in making board appointments, was noted. The NSMC noted that MCA has been considering the potential implications of the UK withdrawal from the EU. The Council also noted recent developments in the delivery of special educational needs programmes in both jurisdictions.”
“The NSMC noted the appointment by me of the expert panel, under the New Decade, New Approach agreement, to examine the links between persistent educational underachievement and socio-economic background and to draw up an action plan for change that will ensure that all children and young people, regardless of background, are given the best start in life. That was noted by Ministers. <BR /> <BR />Research on the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools (DEIS) programme has been provided as part of the evidence base to the panel. The panel will produce an interim report and draft action plan by 31 March 2021 and a final action plan including implementation costs and timescales by 31 May 2020.”
“The high-level engagement that has taken place between Departments on PEACE PLUS, the draft proposals for PEACE PLUS in relation to the theme of youth and the potential for ambitious and innovative proposals under PEACE PLUS to promote respect and understanding on a cross-border and cross-community basis were noted by the Council. <BR /> <BR />The NSMC noted the lessons learned and the recommendations from the final evaluation report on the North/South underachievement practitioners' engagement project, which was published by Co-operation Ireland in July 2017.”
“It also welcomed the fact that Education Ministers will convene a meeting of senior departmental officials, along with agencies and bodies that have responsibility in vital support areas, and report findings to the next NSMC meeting in the sector. <BR /> <BR />The NSMC noted the commitment to review the work programme and the plan to convene a meeting of senior officials from relevant Departments, co-chaired by the secretary general and the permanent secretary of the Education Departments, to make recommendations for the future work programme. That meeting will be . <BR /> <BR />Ministers noted the impact that COVID-19 has had on Peace IV-funded shared education projects. They also noted that, to address the challenges posed by COVID-19, the use of online technologies to promote the objectives of shared education was being explored.”
“They noted the importance and context of the successful reopening of schools — a core policy objective in both jurisdictions — in accordance with hygiene and public health protocols. The Council noted the heightened concern of Education Ministers for pupils with complex and additional learning needs and acknowledged the efforts of teachers and other critical support staff to maintain students’ relationships and connections with schools. The agreement of the Education Ministers and their officials to continue sharing information and advance notice of key decisions, where practicable, was also welcomed. The Council expressed its appreciation to all staff engaged in the delivery of education in these exceptional times.”
“I will address each of those items in turn. <BR /> <BR />The Council noted the current assessment of the likely implications for the education sector of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU and welcomed the commitments made to take all necessary measures to ensure that the agreed common travel area rights and privileges were protected. Ministers also welcomed the commitments made to the future PEACE PLUS programme and the work that is under way to develop that programme. Ministers reaffirmed their commitment to continued cooperation on education issues following the conclusion of the transition period. <BR /> <BR />On COVID-19, Ministers welcomed the commitment of all teaching staff in both jurisdictions to deliver remote learning to pupils.”
“Progress was made on a number of key issues, including the implications of UK withdrawal from the EU; the response to COVID-19; the review of the work programme; the update on EU funding; educational underachievement; special educational needs; school, youth and teacher exchanges; teacher qualifications; and cooperation between the inspectorates.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. In compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following statement on behalf of Minister Ní Chuilín and me on the meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in education sectoral format that was held on Friday 6 November 2020. Due to the current COVID-19 restrictions, the meeting was conducted via videoconference. I attended the meeting with Minister Foley TD, Minister for Education, and Minister Ní Chuilín as accompanying Minister. <BR /> <BR />The meeting was cordial and productive.”
“I will be brief. Remember: we are able to facilitate transfer. The choice of dates and the change to it is legally of the two organisations: I have not chosen to delay on that basis. However, I can ensure that the transfer takes place within the proper time frame on those dates.”
“On that basis, I await the verbal punishment beating from the Chair of the Committee.”
“We will make sure that all actions are taken to ensure that transfer tests are done in line with public health criteria. No one has anything to fear from transfer tests. There is no doubt — we will come back to it — that there is a fundamental divide in the Assembly and society as a whole on academic selection that will not be sorted out today.”
“No, the Member is wrong in relation to that. In at least a number of cases, it is about whether your parents went to the school; whether your sibling went to the school; whether, indeed, you are the oldest child or it depends on how your brother or sister got on; and whether you are the son or daughter of a teacher at the school. All those criteria are directly linked to personal circumstances. They have nothing at all to do with academic ability, so let us not pretend otherwise. Those schools have a perfect right to do that, and I have indicated to them that, if that is the position for this year, legally that counts not as a development proposal. They are entitled to use those criteria, but I find it difficult to justify how that is in any way fair.”
“I have no doubt that the Member will, rightly, want to defend the schools in his area. To be fair to them, I do not think that they have finalised their position, but they said in their proposals that they would base their selection largely on their existing criteria. Four out of five of those in at least four of the schools and, I think, three out of four or five in the other school centre on the links that a person has to the school through their family.”
“When you are judging whether all schools at primary level are doing everything like for like, are holding data like for like, are doing internal testing like for like, the reality is that, in any school, selection will happen. Let us not kid ourselves: selection will happen in the system whether we like it or not. The only issue is that, whatever the flaws in the current system, it is largely based, for grammar schools, on academic selection. If we move to a situation in which you cannot, ultimately, compare pupils like for like — we are certainly not in that position — you cannot have academic selection. That is the simple reality.”
“Interestingly enough, I never actually mentioned the Member. It seems to have hit a bit of a sore point. <BR /> <BR />You cannot have your cake and eat it. If you want to have grammar schools, you have to have academic selection; if you have academic selection, you have to have transfer tests. There is no point in trying to pretend that that magic circle can be squared.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have a lot more faith in those like Clare Bailey in the Green Party who say, "Abolish academic selection. Let us have an entirely comprehensive system. Let us not have grammar schools". However, let us not pretend that you support grammar schools while abolishing academic selection. It is simply —”
“There is no adequate level of information that allows comparisons between pupils that can allow academic selection without transfer tests. We have to face reality: if we abolish or stop transfer tests, we are not using academic selection. That is a logical construct. <BR /> <BR />If we do not use academic selection, we destroy the basis on which grammar schools exist. There is a perfectly reasonable argument for saying, "Abolish academic selection and have an entirely comprehensive system". That is, at least, a fair and valid argument. What cannot be made is an argument that says, "Abolish transfer tests, abolish academic selection, but we are very much in favour of the grammar school system". That is, at best, intellectual gymnastics; it is dancing on the head of a pin. It is intellectually dishonest.”
“No. I want to get through some things. I will not make the same mistake that Mr O'Toole made with me. <BR /> <BR />The position with academic selection is that, if we were simply to abolish the right to have it, notwithstanding the fact that that would require changes in law, we would have a largely comprehensive system, but it would operate largely as it does in England, with a small percentage of students at fee-paying public schools. Again, I challenge anybody to say that that is a fairer position. It is, however, at least a reasonable enough position to put forward, and one that some parties have put forward for many years. <BR /> <BR />What is not the case is that we can have academic selection without transfer tests.”
“If we are truly looking for a more egalitarian society, schools are certainly entitled to use their own criteria, but I have to say that a system in which selection for grammar school is done by a form of hereditary right is not one that strikes me as being more equal than what exists at present. <BR /> <BR />Let us cut to the heart of the issue. It is perfectly reasonable to make an argument essentially for comprehensive education. I cannot remember whether it was Mr McCrossan or Mr McNulty who said that, from day one, the SDLP has opposed academic selection. I perfectly accept that. It is a perfectly reasonable position to take. The party opposite has also been fairly clear for many years about where it stands on academic selection. First, if we simply go down the route of abolishing academic selection, what we will have —.”
“I believe that Mr McNulty referred to this, but, in the press statement that they released to say that they were not going to use academic selection, what those schools revealed about the criteria that they intend to use is that they will draw largely on their existing criteria, which prioritise the children of existing teachers at the school; those who have a sibling at the school; and those for whom it depends on an accident of birth, by which I mean that it is an all-boys or all-girls school and depends on whether they have a brother or a sister. In some cases, it will depend on whether their parents went to that school.”
“Frankly, I will not be changing primary legislation. I cannot do it on that basis. That would be a quick way to judicial review. <BR /> <BR />Let us take a look. Schools' boards of governors have got the right to use academic selection or not to use it. That right has been used successfully for both. On this occasion, a number of schools have indicated that they will not use academic selection on a one-year basis.”
“If that means that the Assembly wishes me to detail the admissions criteria that will be used should entrance test scores not be available, I am not in a position to do that, because the legal responsibility for setting admissions criteria lies with boards of governors. I cannot set the criteria that are used by schools.”
“Indeed, a wide range of measures will be in place: supervision; maintenance of a safe distance when checking examination numbers; encouragement of frequent handwashing; supervision of class bubbles; and social distancing in the classroom. <BR /> <BR />Arrangements are being made for around 10,000 pupils on those particular occasions. I should point out that there is a slight inaccuracy when we talk about the potential for five tests. The PPTC offers two tests, the second of which is essentially for those who have missed the first test. Around 1,000 pupils will do both tests. <BR /> <BR />A range of contingencies will therefore be put in place. The motion calls on me:”
“There will therefore be the option of face coverings for pupils. Pupils will be seated in class bubbles, which are 2 metres apart. There will be a range of handwashing arrangements. There will be no food on site. Centre heads will have oversight of arrivals of pupils in bubbles; will ensure that no parents or visitors are directly on school grounds while tests are taking place; and will ensure that school gates are closed to parents and visitors while tests are taking place. There will be an explanation of arrangements to pupils and oversight of staff and pupils. There will be oversight where pupils are wearing face coverings.”
“Indeed, this can be — I will outline a number of these — a precursor to what will actually happen with examinations, because the public health arrangements will, on this occasion, be the same as will be happening on a daily basis.”
“We are saying, "Can safety arrangements be made on particular days on which, roughly speaking, about 10,000 pupils will actually be sitting tests?" We should also realise that, in the school system, about a third of a million children come through the school gates every single day. So, can provision be made to ensure that there is adequate safety for children? Yes, it can, and that is by way of a range of measures. While, ultimately, that is the responsibility of the schools concerned and the testing organisations, a range of arrangements have been put to the organisations to ensure that there is safety. We are talking about a staggered arrival in school groups and bubbles and hand sanitisation on arrival to buildings and classrooms.”
“The Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 provides the legal power for setting admissions to the boards of governors, not to my Department. A Member asked why that is being allowed. In part, because it is the law and, indeed, I would be in legal breach if I was to move away from that. My Department can and does publish guidance on the post-primary admissions process, which schools have to give regard to, and recommends what schools should and should not use, but it remains for individual boards of governors to define the criteria that they wish to use to select children for admission. <BR /> <BR />One of the concerns that parents will have will be about the safety measures that are put in place. First of all, let us put this in context.”
“Mention has been made of the Engage programme and, in that context, £11·2 million has been made available and allocated to schools. It is up to individual schools, according to the budget that they have, as to how that is directly used, so there is no direction from the Department as to how to do that. Indeed, this is about the point that Members have referred to with the various levels of academic catch-up. Additionally, some other schemes have been put in place. <BR /> <BR />Safety has been mentioned. We anticipate that a range of measures will be put in, but I will come to those in a moment. However, the setting of admissions criteria is, in particular, a matter for the boards of governors of individual schools.”