Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
The complete record
Every one of 3,831 lines we hold for Peter Weir, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 46 of 77.
“Under the last minor works, a total of 16 applications were set down by Carrickfergus College and Downshire between them. As I have said, there is work ongoing in relation to that. Therefore, there is a realisation that, even when we see particularly successful schools, there is also going to be a certain bridging period, as regards minor works, because, as with any capital announcement, by necessity, even if it is successful, it will take a number of years to happen. We have to ensure that, as much as possible — and within the constraints of budgets — all children, be they in Carrickfergus or, indeed, anywhere else in Northern Ireland, are given the best possible conditions to study during that period.”
“As indicated, I hope to make a major capital announcement in the next few months. There is a wee bit more flexibility in capital, as opposed to resource, because clearly the budget for next year has not been set. Capital projects tend to be multi-year by nature, and there can be flexibility of flow between those years. I hope to make an overall major announcement in connection with all the applications relatively soon. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, irrespective of whether a green light is given to a new capital build for Carrickfergus, that does not negate applications for minor works. As such, over the last three years, about £74,000 has been spent directly on minor works on the junior and senior campus sites. A further eight possible schemes for minor works are currently being assessed.”
“It is important that schools that get past the gateway check of eligibility criteria are judged and ranked on that. The scoring criteria need to be applied fairly. I will not seek to interfere in any way with those criteria. Hopefully, when we make the major capital announcement, there will be good news for a range of places. I am aware of the good work that has been going on in Carrickfergus to help facilitate that.”
“I am always keen to help facilitate capital build where I can, and there is a good record of having a flow of projects. Particularly with mergers, there has to be a realisation, as we move forward, that a level of priority is given where mergers are taking place or where there is a scheme that aids area planning. If we are to create a joined-up approach in capital build, then fuelling or giving priority to area planning is going to be a critical element. <BR /> <BR />In this particular case, the Member may be aware that the call that was issued and the criteria that were used for the major capital project preceded the restoration of the Assembly. When the officials are scoring and judging, they have to bear in mind the criteria that were there at that particular point. We cannot retrofit criteria.”
“The Education Authority has submitted an application on behalf of Carrickfergus Academy under the recent call for major capital works. That call was issued in September 2019, and it closed on 31 October 2019. This was a Northern Ireland-wide call. All applications submitted under this call are currently being considered by officials and applications which meet the eligibility criteria will be scored in accordance with the published protocol. <BR /> <BR />As this is a live and, ultimately, competitive process between schools, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on a new build for Carrickfergus Academy at this time. However, it is likely that a major capital announcement of schemes to advance in planning will be made in the forthcoming months.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will be happy to work with others to ensure that there is access to adequate, appropriate training programmes in initial teacher education and in continuing professional development. That has to borrow heavily from the experience of parents and teachers. Sometimes, there is a tendency for the Assembly or Ministers to almost dictate from above. It is important, if we are to have something that is fit for purpose, that it learns from the experience of families and what works directly for teachers. <BR /> <BR />That is the commitment I give. We will ensure, then, that we move towards that system, which means, therefore, that the proper provision is made and proper awareness, recognition and training are put in place. I welcome the rest of the debate.”
“There are imaginative solutions that the proposer of the motion and others have come up with. We can see, for example, as part of the SEN framework, that there will be an opportunity, as we move ahead, to embed within the so-called Baker days some provision and a recommendation that they should use those days particularly for SEN training. That could provide a level of focus on autism. <BR /> <BR />There is a unity of spirit here. The issue, therefore, is a question not of whether but of how we do this. From that point of view, I am not doctrinaire as to precisely how we reach that end point, but it is clear, given the growing needs that we have in the greatly increased level of identification of autism and, therefore, the prevalence in mainstream and specialised schools, that we do need to deliver better.”
“All our teachers, in special and mainstream schools, have to be highly skilled in supporting pupils with autism to succeed, and it is important, therefore, that our educational professions are appropriately skilled. It is clear that, while what we have been doing up until now has made a valuable contribution, it is falling short of the mark, and we need to embed that level of knowledge within our professions.”
“I am happy to give the assurance that we will take a look at that. We need to make sure that we have the right network of facilities. <BR /> <BR />There is no hidden agenda to look to abolish any form of special schools. It is about getting balance.”
“The point is well made that, if we are to embed what is there, the starting point is to ensure that teachers coming out in the first place do so with this level of knowledge. I should put a little bit of a caveat in that because, ultimately, initial teacher education is paid for by the Department for the Economy. I cannot make a pledge that actually spends someone else's money. The curriculum is controlled by the higher education institutions themselves. While there has been some autism training available, there is a concern that its depth is not sufficient. We need to move to a situation where it is embedded in initial teacher education and then, in the wider context, ensure a roll-out of mandatory training.”
“The capacity-building group perhaps provides a template to look holistically at both CPD and initial teacher education. We need to see a step change in what we provide for special educational needs. I hope to launch a consultation and framework for special educational needs in the spring. That will provide a coordinated approach to autism and other special educational needs. All these things are multi-agency and multi-departmental in their nature, and there has been criticism of some other Departments. The second progress report on the current autism strategy, which is being done by the Department of Health in conjunction with other Departments, is also due to launch soon. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, the big issue is how we move on from here. There has been mention of initial teacher education.”
“There has been mention of the overall costs of around £280 million to the Education budget, which is the latest assessment. Obviously, we need to ensure that we get the best possible delivery for our young people and the best possible value for our money. So, we have to caveat this slightly on the basis of what resources are available. <BR /> <BR />Mr Durkan raised the issue of the Western Trust. The one thing I can give an assurance on is that my Department will not be handing back any money in terms of spend on children, particularly resource spend. We will often be going to the Finance Minister to look for more, but there will not be any underspend in the Department of Education. <BR /> <BR />Despite the pressures that are there, we can think imaginatively. We are looking at where we are with this.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the outcomes of the capacity-building project, which was established in response to the 2017 Northern Ireland Audit Office 'Special Educational Needs' report, is that training in special educational needs, including autism, for teachers and those studying is a key focus of the Learning Leaders oversight group, which is chaired by my Department and involves a range of stakeholders. The purpose of this is to provide strategic direction in design and development. That oversight group was established in March 2017, following publication of the report. <BR /> <BR />There are many special educational needs in our schools. It is important that we get balance but also have a focus on autism. Through identification, we have seen a rising number of children with SEN.”
“Provision of tailored special educational needs training specific to need, coupled with school-based support and an incremental approach to service delivery, has been the current model and is to ensure that knowledge and understanding gained from any training is fully integrated. Training programmes are largely focused on upskilling educational professionals, enhancing the capacity of educational institutions to support children with autism in their education setting and in the home, and providing parents with support.”
“While we want to provide the best of services, that will quite often involve a cocktail of measures. It is not simply a one-off. The Member is right, and I know that a number of the Youth Service providers have, for instance, received excellent inspection reports, particularly when dealing with the issues around autism. I certainly acknowledge that. <BR /> <BR />Middletown provides a fully integrated suite of services, including a cohesive transdisciplinary learning support and assessment service combined with research and training, alongside opportunities for family support. The latest figures show that, during the 12 years of its interventions, it has delivered training to over 33,000 professionals. Many educational professionals access the training through this, and they are free to access it.”
“The support that is available at home is also critical.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Middletown Centre for Autism has been mentioned, and that is funded jointly by my Department and the Department of Education and Skills in the Republic of Ireland. I know that a number of Members have visited the Middletown centre, and I certainly encourage them to do so. It operates as a second-tier service to the EA to augment its autism training programme. It has built a reputation for excellence in the quality of its services, as confirmed by independent joint inspections in 2012 and 2016. Middletown provides a comprehensive range of online training and advisory services for educational professionals, parents, children and other allied health professionals. It is a one-stop shop to support children with autism in their education setting and, as was mentioned by a number of Members, it takes a holistic approach.”
“First of all, there is the autism advisory and intervention service that is provided by EA, which provides a wide range of autism spectrum disorder training on request. Through that intervention, last year, the latest figures we have show that 4,023 teachers and school staff accessed training from that. A number of Members have made this clear during the debate, and it has been highlighted by the unions: that is a good service. Is it adequate in and of itself? No, I do not believe that it is, and that has been highlighted particularly by the Ulster Teachers' Union. That has been identified by the EA itself; it has identified the need for a more strategic development of regional training. Even the EA has accepted that what is there is not sufficient.”
“<BR /> <BR />Provision of support for special education is based upon those individual needs, and specific support is required to meet the needs of the child. Those with special educational needs quite often have more than one type of need or difficulty, and therefore interventions are tailored to meet the specific needs of the individual child. For autism, special educational needs may include speech, language, communication, social interaction, behaviour and emotional and well-being challenges, and there is a direct responsibility on the Education Authority to ensure that training that it provides is equitable and balanced across a wide range of special educational needs. <BR /> <BR />I want to highlight three areas where there is pre-existing training.”
“It is actually that, for many pupils who in previous years went undiagnosed, there is a much greater opportunity for that to be picked up. <BR /> <BR />When we look at the role of educational professionals, we can see that they are not qualified to make, or responsible for, the diagnosis of any child's medical issue, but it is important that they are informed by the child's experience, their views and their strengths and needs. Their role is to identify the impact on the child's learning experience and participation within an inclusive educational system, and then, using that knowledge and those skills, they can adapt their practice to enable every child to fulfil their potential. We should always remember that every child is an individual and that their needs are always slightly different.”
“To that extent, therefore, at the start of my summing up, I am happy to indicate my support for either or both amendments and, indeed, the motion itself. I will not seek to divide the House on the nuances of difference between the two amendments. <BR /> <BR />The growth in recognition and diagnosis of autism has, as some Members highlighted, been a welcome development in recent years, but that has then created a need for more awareness and training. Ten years ago, the figure for those diagnosed with autism was around 1·2%. Today, it is 3·3%, and, as a number of Members indicated, that is the equivalent of about one child per class. That is because there has been a growing recognition of autism. I do not believe it is because there has been a particular change, in any form, of the condition.”
“At the outset of this conclusion to the debate, I thank all Members for their valuable contributions. I pay tribute, as others have, to the various groups that have been involved with autism. The contributions that we have had, perhaps, show the merits of all-party groups. Many Members have spoken with the background of having gone through the evidence in the all-party groups. Autism can be an emotive and significant subject, particularly for those families who have children with autism. It is clear we have seen a considerable consensus across the Chamber on the issue. <BR /> <BR />I will maybe start with the two amendments. They perhaps have nuances of difference, but the general direction of travel is the same for both.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member is right: we need to provide a more strategic vision and something that is more long term in its approach.”
“I do not, in any way, disagree with the Member. It is part of the wider picture, and capital investment has to be aligned with the overall position. <BR /> <BR />As I said, we need to see levels of reform and transformation, and some of that will be within the schools estate. It may mean that, as the Member mentioned, there is a certain level of invest to save through that transformation, and certain moneys may need to be put up front to produce better finances and educational facilities. We should not, however, kid ourselves. If we are looking at transformation of the broader schools estate, sometimes that will mean difficult decisions. While people can buy into a wider picture, perhaps when it gets to their areas, it is human nature that they will be a lot more protective and supportive of those areas.”
“It may well be that that is not the basis on which schools put in an application, but I will contact the Member about what level of discussion there could be. It may well be that, from a geographical point of view, on a particular occasion, one area or another will benefit. That is based on objective criteria, and that is the way it should be.”
“A friend of mine has an expression: "Every day is a school day". It may surprise the Member to realise that it is also a controlled school. As part of the overall picture, 10 out of the 18 schools are from the controlled sector, and, indeed, without getting into a geography lesson, the boundaries of County Antrim mean that some of those schools that are in Belfast fall within County Antrim. <BR /> <BR />The schools were selected based on rigorous, objective criteria that were applied by officials. I did not seek in any way to interfere with those or adjust the list in any shape or form, because I think it is important that those criteria are there, fair and objectively. It will mean that, within any tranche, some schools will be successful and others will not. <BR /> <BR />I will consult with officials on the publication of any list.”
“It would, perhaps, be surprising if the Member was not expressing some level of disappointment at whatever was being said. It may have escaped the Member's notice that, for instance, Riverside Special School in Antrim is in County Antrim.”
“Certainly, we will try to ensure that there is the right mix of all those elements.”
“I welcome the Member. I think that I am right in saying that she is a former pupil of Sullivan Upper, so I suppose that she will be particularly delighted to see her old school getting this advantage. <BR /> <BR />Some of the minor works will depend on what budget is available. There is also a decision to be taken because, to some extent, there are three areas — the school enhancement programme, the major capital build and minor works — and a wee bit of thought to be given to what the right concoction of the three is. It is undoubtedly the case, in terms of overall capital works, including minor works, that, while it is very welcome to see actions being taken and while the budget may be less pressed than the resource budget, it could be spent two or three times over, at least.”
“I am certainly happy to correspond with the Member. As indicated earlier, this is, if you like, stage 1; it is the approval bit. The next stage is the scoping out of the project between the Department and the school. Even once work starts, there can be a degree of variation. Once that project work has been done in terms of that scoping exercise, we will be in a better position to provide a little more meat on the bone about directly what will be done and what it is likely to cost. I seem to remember visiting St Patrick's College, possibly with the Member, previously. In part, that was an opportunity to see the state of the buildings, and it is good, therefore, that we are seeing, in terms of some of the provisions, a good news story as regards St Pat's.”
“Obviously, we will respond, and I thank the Member for his question. He will know about the constraints of finance as a former member of the old Finance Committee. In terms of the initial level of correspondence, the direct contact will be between the Department and the schools. I think that there is a need to keep the wider community involved with that. I had the opportunity, I remember, to visit St Paul's. It is, as the Member said, a particularly significant mix of people, which, I think, works very well in the school. As part of that, we want to make sure that the scheme at St Paul's and others can progress as soon as possible. Obviously, we will be able to respond to any correspondence that the Member gives us.”
“The Member will appreciate that, legally, there are periods where a Minister, with a development proposal, can meet to listen to submissions and hear advice. Because the Minister — in the absence of a Minister, the Department — will take a final decision, they cannot particularly comment on that. There will also be a period in which the Minister is prevented from having that meeting, so I will need to look at that individual case, depending on where it is in the process.”
“As indicated, as with all the proposals, there is an overall timescale for the SEP, so I cannot go into details on an individual school. That will slightly vary, depending on the discussions. The requests were highlighted in a similar manner to how the Member asked about them: the canteen, some replacements of windows, security and sports facilities. Those are the requests, and we will work with them on that. I appreciate the work that the Member has done, and I am slightly reminded of the phrase, "Victory has a thousand parents, and defeat is an orphan". A lot of good work has been put in by a range of Members across the spectrum. <BR /> <BR />Specifically on the potential school closure mentioned by the Member, I will take advice, as I do not know what stage that is at.”
“Quite frankly, irrespective of the sector that any school applies from, they are scored entirely by officials and entirely on the basis of those objective criteria. That will continue to be the case.”
“From that point of view, I do not know. All indications were, I think, that 165 schools applied. As others can bear out, it is undoubtedly the case that, if you were to visit schools around the country, you would find that a lot more schools would feel that they would benefit from either a new build or an SEP. In some cases, the decision will have been taken by the school as to which route they see as the more appropriate. The criteria are entirely objective, and schools are scored around those criteria and then, if you like, ranked according to the list. The only subdivision is not between any form of sectors but to getting a mix of primary and post-primary and having some indication of special needs schools.”
“<BR /> <BR />As indicated, if there has been a successful SEP, the general rule is that it will prevent a complete new build for a period; however, there can be the opportunity to obtain that via the other route. Obviously, in Strabane's case, a lot of the focus will be on issues around new classrooms and, indeed, the extension of that. Hopefully, I will be back in the Member's constituency visiting schools in drier circumstances.”
“I echo a couple of points that the Member has made. First, it is right that we pay tribute to some of our retiring teachers and principals, many of whom have spent, perhaps, decades at particular schools and seen generations of children go through them. Without getting into any recriminations about the last three years, it would remiss of me not to say that, despite the limitations that have been placed on officials, a lot of good work has been put in by officials in all Departments to ensure that as much progress is made as possible. <BR /> <BR />I, too, remember the visit to West Tyrone. It was a bit of a Storm Brendan-type situation. I remember we almost had to borrow the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party's submarine to get back that day, so heavy was the rain on that occasion.”
“In some cases, there has been a converse situation — I know that the Department has been proactive on this — where schools have an artificial enrolment number that does not reflect the real situation. It was maybe a decision taken in the 70s or 80s. So, there has been an accommodation through downsizing. Clearly, with any individual proposal, we will look at the overall system. That has to feed in, and it will also be part of the wider review. How we manage that and the processes will play into area planning. <BR /> <BR />Obviously, I am under a legal duty to determine each individual application on its merits, so I will not comment on the individual case, and I assume that the Member will not expect me to anyway.”
“As regards the protocol mentioned, in terms of split sites, the fact that Victoria College operates on a split site was one of the factors that was a determinant in reaching that decision. If it helps to create, if you like, a more sustainable school estate, that is preferable. <BR /> <BR />As we look at the broader area of school numbers, we need to ensure that we get the right processes there, particularly for development proposals. The Member may appreciate that I cannot comment on an individual case, but, more generally, we have to ensure that the development proposals are fit for purpose, and, sometimes, that means that we look at things to see where there can be some easier wins.”
“I take the point that the Member makes. The wider issue of procurement lies largely outside my Department's remit. CPD largely sits in the Department of Finance. We have to be careful that we do not talk at cross purposes. For any major procurement, there have to be clear-cut regulations and procedures. Where there can be a level of annoyance and where we need to look at this from the schools' point of view is where something they see as being a very minor issue has, at times, a long lead-in time, potentially creating a situation in which relatively minor work seems to cost a large amount of money. It is about getting that balance at the lower level. If we are looking at major areas of procurement, it should be universal throughout government to try to ensure a level playing field.”
“If a development proposal comes forward, there will need to be reassessment to ensure that it is fit for purpose. Sometimes, as I said, what a school says it wants may not necessarily be the absolute priority when it comes to what it needs. Sometimes, when a project is under way, it can even be found that priorities change a little bit.”
“First, I have highlighted the timescale. I am not making any particular assumptions about the two schools that have been mentioned. What I have highlighted about the details of the project is based on what the school put in its application and what the asks were. In most cases, that will then be reflected precisely in the school enhancement programme, based as it is on the school's needs. As has been mentioned, in the normal process of the school enhancement programme, there may be a bar on a successful application for a new build, but we will want to look at everything in the wider context of area planning. <BR /> <BR />Similarly, the wider context of area planning will need to be looked at for Movilla High School. We will come back to that at a later stage.”
“Again, I look forward to new facilities both at St John's and St Kieran's. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to the refreshing sound of Members welcoming the inclusion of a school that is outside their constituency. Pat Catney, to be fair to him, a Member for Lagan Valley, did break the taboo and welcomed the inclusion of a school in West Belfast, so he should perhaps get a special Speaker's prize.”
“As indicated, we have an overall timescale. We do not have the detail, because some of that will involve the wider discussions. We are hoping that, with the school enhancement programme, people will be on-site in '22-'23 and that, indeed, there will be the normal timescale, which is roughly about 18 months. There can be a fairly quick turnaround with SEP construction. One of the advantages is that — this again depends on the exact nature of the work that is being done — in the vast majority of cases, it should mean that there will not be any particular levels of dislocation. I cannot give a guarantee of that for every school. There may need to be some temporary relocation, but the fact that it is on-site and will be part of the school should mean that we can minimise the level of disruption for any of the schools.”
“On that basis, there will be no undue delay, but, obviously, we want to have, from the Department's point of view, a clear discussion with the school on the exact details of what will be provided.”
“First of all, I pay tribute to the Member. I know he has been particularly assiduous in raising the case of St John the Baptist, and I credit him with doing a lot of work with the school. I also highlight, given the appointment of the new principal of St John the Baptist, that we have not given this just to get a favourable response from a social media commentator. I hope, like the original St John the Baptist, this is a forerunner of better things. <BR /> <BR />I am sure the Member will be assiduous in ensuring that the envelope is pushed out as much as possible in connection with this. Again, the aim is to try to deliver these as quickly as we possibly can.”
“The SEPs give an assurance that the work can carry on and, indeed, that the school will remain at its current location, which also gives some certainty for the way ahead.”
“The normal rule of thumb is that there is a seven-year period for that, and, again, in the wider context, people will look at it. As I said, that is not to say that schools cannot apply for both, but clearly, if they are successful, there will be a certain times when schools have to take a little bit of a strategic decision themselves about what they feel to be best. Sometimes that will be obvious, because a school may not be necessarily looking for a complete new build. It may say, "Well, actually, we need additional classrooms", because one of the other drawbacks for a school — sometimes this can be an advantage — if it is looking for a complete capital build is that there will be a site search, so it may not necessarily end up where it is at present.”
“In that situation, no school is barred from applying for both. Indeed, even if there is a school enhancement programme, it does not automatically rule them out. Obviously, in broader capital works, there are a range of factors that are built in to any protocol, one of which is the physical state of the buildings and the facilities that are there. So, I suppose, to some extent, there is always some impact because it may mean that a scoring mechanism, for instance, on the physical state of any —. I am just checking that that is correct. Maybe not. Just give me a moment here. There will be a —. Sorry. <BR /> <BR />There is, ultimately, a situation that, if a school has been approved for an SEP, it is likely to lead to a period of time in which it would not be eligible.”
“I am conscious of the fact that, if we said, "Here is a very definitive amount for each school", that may end up giving a false impression. It may underestimate, sometimes, what money there would be. The only thing I will say for absolute certainty is that all school enhancement projects will be between half a million and £4 million. As Members can suggest, the fact that we were talking about a tranche of money of £45 million across 18 schools means it will tend to be on the higher side of that in general. Obviously, as individual details become available and agreed, that will then become transparent between the Department and the schools.”