Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“We would need considerably more than a Barnett consequential, because the number of children, for instance, who qualify for free school meals is of a greater nature than it is across the water. Again, it seemed that this was a case in which the Westminster Government followed behind the devolved Administrations. As the Member is aware, a proposal had been put to the Executive to ensure that, for instance, as a result of the additional week off, initially, that would be covered. Strictly speaking, time outside term time lies outside the legal remit of the Department of Education. However, what we found, across the spectrum of the Executive, is that there has been a considerable willingness and unanimous support — I do not think that I am breaching any Executive confidentiality.”
“I am happy to get any information on those meetings, and there will have been discussions, too. We want to ensure that children are operating in a safe environment when it comes to the transfer tests, but we should put it in context. As I indicated in the debate, around 10,000 pupils will sit the tests on each Saturday that they are held, and a range of mitigation measures will be put in place, but that is in the context of more than 300,000 children going to school daily. It is about trying to ensure that any health and safety mitigations are put in place. As for the specifics of any discussions on that, I am sure that we will get the details to the Member.”
“As I indicated at the time, contingencies need to be put in place. The people who are doing it, legally, are, first, the schools that can set their own criteria and, secondly, the organisations that put the tests in place. We will ensure that everything is put in place with regard to the health and safety of individuals, but, from that point of view, I think that it runs contrary to the law and the right of schools to have academic selection. I appreciate that the Member and I take a different view in relation to that. I support the right of schools to have academic selection. Schools have the opportunity not to use that, if they so desire, but I am not going to try to impose on schools the removal of academic selection.”
“I do not have those figures to hand, but I will get them for the Member. We know the figures for pupils who have tested positive across the board. We will take a look to see what figures are available. I am happy to write to the Member with any information that we have, broken down as much as possible.”
“That is irrespective of where the school is based. <BR /> <BR />Across the board, the latest figures suggest that roughly half of schools have not had a single case and half have had at least one case. Of those, about half had a single incidence, involving one individual. Schools will largely reflect what is happening in the community. Schools are a relatively controlled environment. I do not believe that they are somewhere in which the spreading of COVID is a particularly major problem. The problem is a range of the activities that happen alongside schools, and we are seeing that within the wider context. As numbers of COVID cases continue to come down, I hope that we will continue to see reductions in schools, and if they go up, I suspect that schools will reflect that.”
“Schools can contact a dedicated PHA helpline directly. With regard to tracing, we should remember what is being said about close contacts and that, largely speaking, they are those who are within 2 metres of the affected individual for more than 15 minutes. The people who are in the best position to determine that are the people within the schools. There is, therefore, that level of support. There is support in this area, as there is with everything in relation to the issue; I am not suggesting that education has been treated unfairly with regard to the level of support. If more support was available, could more be done? Yes, it could, as it could in a lot of things, but I am confident that what has been put in place provides the maximum amount of support available, given the level of resources.”
“That is a little over 3%. It should also be noted that half of the staff who were reported not to be working on-site were reported to be working remotely. <BR /> <BR />We should also remember and put into context with regard to staff that, on average, the bill for substitute staff in a normal year is around £100 million, which is a little bit shy of 10% of the overall wage figure. We need to put that into context as well.”
“It had identified that, prior to the Halloween break, just over 2,000 cases were, in some way, connected with schools, with a breakdown of about 1,400 pupils and 600 staff who, over that eight-week period, cumulatively had tested positive for COVID-19. Again, the fluctuation is due largely to the figures in schools reflecting what is going on in the wider community. <BR /> <BR />As regards staff, the most recent available figures are for 13 October. They show that about 90% of teaching and non-teaching staff were on-site on that day. Of the one in 10 staff who were reported as not working on-site, schools categorised just over one third as having been:”
“The Department does not hold daily specific information on the number of pupils and staff who have been or are currently self-isolating. However, we capture pupil attendance data through the school information management system (SIMS) using a reappropriated attendance code that is not solely for COVID-19. Over the first couple of months, that averaged about 2% per week. In the week commencing 12 October, it reached a peak of 5·6%. Those figures were on the basis of where pupils were receiving direct support learning and, indeed, engaging directly with remote learning while self-isolating or shielding. <BR /> <BR />As regards teachers, again, the overall figures were produced by the Public Health Agency, which monitors them.”
“As with everything, though, will there be instantaneous answers or improvements? No. They will not happen instantaneously, but we need to move in the right direction constantly. Ultimately, can more be done? Yes, and more will be done.”
“I have indicated that, with regard to SEN, I have directed the Education Authority to work directly with those schools and to provide individual interventions where it can provide support. There is an onus on the EA to do that. <BR /> <BR />As I indicated, some good work has been done. Improvements are being made. Can more be done? Yes. We are not at the endgame. As with anything in public life, there is always the danger of seeing it as an event when, in fact, it is part of a process. We need to ensure that that process continues. That is part of the reason why, from a strategic point of view, we put the SEN regulations out to consultation with the idea that, at the end of that process, new SEN regulations and a code of practice would be put in place. That will be helpful as well.”
“We have seen some level of improvement, but we have to push that consistently. <BR /> <BR />To take another appalling statistic, exactly one year ago 107 children had been waiting over a year and a half for the completion of their statutory assessment: that figure is now down to zero.”
“To be fair, despite COVID, there has been some improvement. For example, between July and September, the percentage of statements completed in time rose by about 11%, so there are some positives. That is across the board. There have been improvements in Fermanagh and South Tyrone, for instance. Indeed, with regard to the unacceptable number of children who were waiting more than 40 weeks, which is 14 outside of that, there has been an 83% improvement. The number has gone down from 265 to 44. Undoubtedly, COVID-19 has had an impact on some of the assessments that were there earlier in the year. For all of us, including even those in the medical profession, there was a level of reluctance in trying to assess what was doable on the ground. None of us knew precisely what was coming down the track.”
“I will be happy to work with him. It is important as part of this. As with a lot of things, if there were simply a single intervention that would make things work more quickly, it would have been made some time ago. It is about trying to reduce bureaucracy. <BR /> <BR />With statements, while it is still far too long, there has been a reduction in the time taken for assessments, and that is starting to work through the system. Where there are direct individual assessments, COVID has created its own problems, but we are trying to work around those. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to give that commitment to work with the Health Minister and continue to work between the two Departments to make sure that we improve the lot of anybody with autism or, indeed, wider special educational needs.”
“Actions are also ongoing to reduce delays in the statutory assessment process through the EA's improvement plan and the joint Health and Education notification, referral and statutory assessment (NRSA) action plan. <BR /> <BR />I have established a SEN governance group to provide strategic oversight and coordination of the overall programme of improvements in the EA and the Department. The group will provide an assurance that the Department and the EA are working collaboratively to improve processes and procedures to achieve better outcomes for children with SEN.”
“Give me a second. <BR /> <BR />The Education Authority has established a special educational needs and disability strategic development programme that will incorporate work to reduce delays in the SEN assessment process. The programme will also address recommendations from the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People (NICCY) report 'Too Little, Too Late', the Northern Ireland Audit Office reports on SEN and the EA's own internal audit of practice report. <BR /> <BR />The Department is consulting on a new SEN framework that will introduce new duties for the EA, schools and the Department of Health that are designed to reduce timescales and bureaucracy in the statutory assessment process.”
“The stakeholder group of about 20 school principals encompasses all the sectors, including primary, post-primary selective and non-selective schools and special schools, and acts as a sounding board for discussion. That group is already there.”
“I agree, but a stakeholder group has already been set up. From the point of view of providing advice, a stakeholder group of school principals has been meeting regularly. It continues to meet and is informed of a range of issues in order to do that work. In addition, there are discussions at times with trade union representatives. There is a stakeholder group. <BR /> <BR />A balance has to be struck. In education, as with other things that have happened with COVID, there will be times when there has to be a quick reaction to things. That means that you cannot have everything convened. A balance between consultation and responding quickly has to be struck.”
“In about half the schools, there have been no cases at all, and in others it has been deeper. It is about responding to the need. Apologies.”
“It is the intention in the way that money is being made available for substitute cover, because you can have a school that is hit quite heavily, that it will be on the basis of drawing down as much as possible, within what is available, on the basis of need, rather than a top-sliced allocation per school. We have seen, for instance, on that basis —.”
“That is the role that schools play in providing that level of information. <BR /> <BR />I am glad that the Member has raised the issue where we have probably seen a bigger problem at times in some areas, and that is where there has been community spread among adults. That has obviously impacted on staff. Sometimes, the reporting of the media is not entirely accurate. I have heard two conflicting dates mentioned, and on the media there was talk of the school in question closing for a fortnight and of remote learning: that is not the case, and I am glad there is the opportunity to put that right. I understand that, possibly on Thursday of this week, following a deep clean, there will be —. There will always be a knock-on effect on that basis.”
“I will take a couple of those issues. Obviously, there is a wider issue for the Executive. The PHA obviously falls within the remit of the Department of Health. There is a wider opportunity, as we move ahead, to increase the availability of tracking and tracing. In schools, we have seen a situation where we will work with the Department of Health on a pilot scheme to ensure that testing can be turned around at a quicker rate. We have seen examples in England where they do daily testing. That is moving on. Directly speaking, I appreciate that tracing people creates a burden for schools, but where someone has tested positive — particularly a school student — the school is probably in the best position to identify those who have been close and those who have been sitting next to them.”
“While it has a major impact on Northern Ireland plc, if I can put it that way, there is no direct Barnett consequential of the furlough being put in place, other than that people in Northern Ireland are able to avail themselves of it. There is not a particular additional block that comes into Education as a result of the extension of the furlough scheme.”
“I indicated that, during the recent monitoring rounds that have just taken place, Education as a whole received £12·8 million of what was bid for in the October monitoring round and then, on the COVID side of it, £49·4 million, of which £10 million was directly related purely to schools. Other actions were taken. It was also the case that, for PPE equipment, in addition to the £6·4 million that was granted, about another £19 million, I think, roughly speaking, was granted to help to pay for PPE for all schools and settings. There are a range of activities. <BR /> <BR />The Member rightly indicated that the furlough scheme has been extended. With the exception of very limited circumstances, the furlough scheme does not apply all that much directly to the public sector, albeit that, across the board, people are able to take advantage of it.”
“There is a range of support there, but not all of that has been entirely rolled out. <BR /> <BR />Sorry, also, as part of that, the figure for schools includes the fact that there has been growth in years 13 and 14. The figure for schools was £10 million that was provided directly for that. There was another £1·8 million for non-statutory preschool settings.”
“The guidance outlines a range of additional supports that are available to schools, including a named cross-organisational link officer for all schools; a Public Health Agency (PHA) helpline; and a dedicated Education Authority helpline for schools that require advice on COVID where a positive case is identified. A range of information and flow charts are also available on the DE website and C2k Exchange. <BR /> <BR />In addition, through the monitoring rounds, additional allocations have recently been made to the education sector. Those are very recent; consequently, we need to move them through. About £8 million was made available directly for schools in addition to a range of other issues to cover, for instance, some EA pressures, including SEN.”
“<BR /> <BR />The package includes £17·5 million towards the cost of substitute teachers and other school expenditure; £6·4 million for PPE; £5 million for school well-being initiatives; £3·1 million for additional costs for home-to-school transport; and £1·4 million to support special educational needs. That is principally focused on the first term of the new academic year. <BR /> <BR />An updated version of the COVID guidance for school and educational settings was published on 29 September, and that is intended to support principals and educational settings.”
“I am on record praising the tremendous efforts of all school leaders and staff not only for their tireless work to support our vulnerable children, the children of key workers and the thousands of pupils who have been educated through remote learning but for the significant planning and preparation that was undertaken to get schools ready for the new term. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to see the results of some of that work at first hand. <BR /> <BR />On 24 August 2020, I outlined a significant package of funding, with the support of the Executive, to help to support the safe reopening of schools. The funding will help principals to address some of the new pressures arising as a result of COVID and, in doing so, to protect our children and young people as well as those working in educational settings.”
“It has been accepted from proposals that we have put forward that, although we do not know the exact nature of what will come out of the educational underachievement panel, as it is an NDNA commitment, we would like to see the Executive as a whole back it up with funding. That could lead to additional support, particularly for nurture units and early intervention.”
“I cannot prejudge any of the panel's outcomes. I should say that some of the advantages of nurture units are those that do not purely bring direct educational achievement; they also have a very major social impact, particularly on disadvantaged young people. They are a potential win-win. As such, I will want to look at whatever proposals come out of that panel. It is likely that there will be some commitment from any panel to earlier interventions, which may well lead to nurture units. <BR /> <BR />As the report is due to complete in May, it will then require additional funding from next year's budgetary settlement.”
“I am certainly keen to look at that. As with a lot of things, the focus has been more on COVID than on developing a policy, but I am sympathetic to the situation. Something needs to be done, and we will need to look at whether it is done on a legislative basis or in a different way. We need to do something to allow greater flexibility on the starting age in limited circumstances, because if you were simply to make that very open-ended, it could be very disruptive to the school system. However, there are some tough cases, and there is no flexibility in that at present, so I am happy to look at it.”
“We have seen expansion, and it is widely accepted that nurture units are important. That is why we are trying to mainstream them across all schools. Not only have they been very successful in the short term but they will bring long-term dividends. <BR /> <BR />As is the case for all Ministers, it is a question of funding constraints. If I had the money to fund another 50 nurture units, I would be happy to do so, as would any Minister. So far, we have been able to progress 15 nurture units. After this, I have a meeting with the Finance Minister to discuss next year's budget. A massive expansion is unlikely, given the other pressures, but any additional units will always be judged on how they rank according to the criteria. It means that, depending on how much money is <BR />available, one school will be the final one to be funded.”
“The position is that all groups should be treated on the basis of equality. In the different sections of funding, there were originally 20 nurture units. That moved up to 30 and then 32, one of which dropped out. Recently, another 15 have been put in place, and two of those are in Irish-medium schools. The criteria that have been used from the start are objective. All schools are treated according to the set criteria, and treated equally. Whether it is a controlled school, a maintained school, an integrated school or an Irish-medium school, decisions are based on how the schools meet the qualifying criteria for a nurture unit. Nobody should feel that they are being superseded or being unfairly leapt over. Objective criteria will continue to apply in establishing any form of ranked order for nurture units.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the urban/rural definitional split, particularly for sustainability issues, anything within the old city council area in the north-west and anything within Belfast was counted as urban; everything else was counted as rural. There is a good argument that that is out of date, and I recently signed off on a proposal to change that to try to align our definitions of urban and rural with those of NISRA so that they are consistent across the board. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that many schools are providing very good services but, if the school could put an official invitation through the system, I would be happy to come down to Pomeroy to visit it.”
“I will deal with a couple of those issues. The position on the most recent announcements is that some of the implementation remains subject to the provision of a business case. As part of that process, a rural needs impact assessment and a quality impact assessment will take place. The criteria used for the previous set of announcements have been in existence for a number of years. It is, effectively, a competition for nurture units, because the funding is not infinite. The system used to produce criteria was developed a number of years ago. That system is ongoing, and schools are therefore ranked against those criteria.”
“In addition to the direct funding for nurture groups in schools, as part of this year's funding process, which will be ongoing, all educational settings, including rural primary schools, will have access to a nurture approach in education programme through the Education Authority. The aim is to try to mainstream this across the board.”
“I thank the Member for her question. Members will be aware that there are two definitions of "rural" in education, which we are trying to align. Based on figures from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA), one primary school currently receives funding from the Department for a nurture group, and that is St Oliver Plunkett Primary School in the north-west. The other definition that is sometimes used for sustainability between urban and rural may be a little out of date. Of the original 31 schools, about 22 were deemed as urban. The new group of 15 schools to receive funding for nurture groups has five schools that are Belfast-based, and 10 are based outside Belfast.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some of the positive aspects of Brexit are having a sovereign nation again and ensuring that, as a country, we can establish our own laws. Children here can also grow up with the confidence of knowing that they live in a sovereign nation and not one that will be dictated to by bureaucrats in Brussels.”
“On the wider point of Brexit, my point was that we are working through any issues on mutual recognition, which has to be done on UK-wide and bilateral bases. It is also the case that steps have been taken on reaching an early agreement on some issues. <BR /> <BR />One of the false concerns raised by some early on — I appreciate that Member did not raise it — was that Brexit would prevent cross-border access. At a very early stage, the common travel area was recognised and accepted by all. On the practical implications, a number of children and staff here work on one side of the border and live on the other. As a result of the recognition of the common travel area, that issue was, largely speaking, sorted out quite a long time ago. Similarly, the positive advantages of PEACE PLUS have been recognised.”
“Similar studies conducted by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control indicate that the levels of COVID among education staff are no different from the rest of the population. <BR /> <BR />A union, even if it is in another jurisdiction, will want to look after its members; that is the role of a trade union. My role is somewhat wider: to ensure that the education of our young people, in particular, is protected. Undoubtedly, the best place for the future of our young children, for their education, their mental health and socialisation is to be directly in schools. I will fight to defend schools remaining open while always examining and taking public health advice so that mitigating measures to protect everyone in schools can be taken.”
“From the point of view of respecting the individual position of jurisdictions, the potential strike action is being taken by a union that does not operate in Northern Ireland. Consequently, any strike action would be a matter for the Republic of Ireland. It is not my role to interfere in the internal affairs of the Republic of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />A range of mitigations has been put in place. Indeed, a recent report by the Office for National Statistics suggests that the incidence of COVID-19 among education staff is no different from the population as a whole. There is no reason to suggest that there is any particular driver in schools that, in any way, places them at a higher level than anywhere else. That has not just been the experience of the Office for National Statistics in the United Kingdom.”
“It is about the mutual recognition of qualifications, and I want to see that addressed. As that particularly relates to Northern Ireland, it is an internal matter for Northern Ireland. Consequently, we have to be very careful that we do not bring into a cross-jurisdictional basis something that should be in the purview of Northern Ireland.”
“I will not comment on the individual elements, because that report has gone to the educational underachievement group. It will work through it and take advice. <BR /> <BR />As I said, it is about learning. It is also the case that, while good work has been done through DEIS, from a practical point of view, we have to ask whether there are still problems with educational underachievement in any jurisdiction. The answer is yes, there are, and it is about the mutual learning that can take place.”
“The four aspects that have been identified are continuation of shared education; the North/South school exchange programme, focusing particularly on 15- and 16-year-olds; educational underachievement; and supporting learning through technology in education. A fifth proposal on integrated education is being finalised. As indicated, specific work will be done that will focus on the youth sector side. The detail of that will come from the National Youth Council and the Education Authority.”
“Again, that common-sense cooperation should not be impacted on adversely by Brexit. There is a direct working relationship on the youth side between the Education Authority and the National Youth Council of Ireland. There is therefore that ongoing dialogue. Direct exchanges among young people, either on the youth side or the school side, have been, on a personal basis and at least in the short term, impacted on in an educational sense by COVID. <BR /> <BR />As the Member will be aware, although there have been some adjustments made to the Peace IV programme, there is support within it to scope out a range of proposals for PEACE PLUS, and those proposals would look towards continuation. At this stage, an ambitious set of proposals has been sent to DOF and the SEUPB for consideration.”
“I will be honest with the Member: although SEN was discussed, the principal area of detail was Middletown, so there was not too much detail on issues that have happened down South. No jurisdiction has got this entirely correct. Arising out of a number of the reports undertaken, the Department has established a wider governance group with the EA to make sure that issues are all drawn together and that we are not pulling in different directions. It is also the case, certainly here, that there is a level of importance attached to the SEN regulations and code of practice. Comparing precisely what has happened in the North with what has happened in the South was not gone into in great detail at the NSMC meeting, but we may touch on that at a later stage.”
“I know that in the Republic of Ireland, for instance, there has also been specific guidance, if not regulation, on how far any individual can move on that basis. <BR /> <BR />There has been a continuation of services, however. Even between March and June of this year, the MCA ran a range of webinars via Zoom for pupils. There has also been online support, and events are now beginning that will directly involve schools and the MCA. It is about trying to balance the health considerations while providing that service. I am confident that the MCA has adapted and will continue to adapt, but all of us will hope for a situation in the relatively near future in which any level of restriction on mixing can be lifted and we can resume living as close to normal as possible.”
“The Member will be aware that, at a broader level, with the common travel area, there should not be any particular obstruction to children moving North/South or South/North. While there will be a need for Middletown to fit into whatever overall jigsaw is there in terms of the EU situation, I do not think that that should lead to particular disruption. I am confident that that will be the case for the Middletown Centre. <BR /> <BR />As regards COVID very specifically, yes, lockdown has changed what the Middletown Centre has been able to provide for children with complex needs. It is part of a wider problem for shared education in the short term. Unfortunately, we have had to insulate against physically bringing children long distances to mix with children from completely different areas and schools.”
“We want to make sure that there is provision for special educational needs across the board. Some areas of training have been held up by COVID. We need to see what is the best way to deliver that. The Member mentions bringing it up as a topic at NSMC, which obviously tends to focus on cross-border jurisdictional aspects. I am not sure whether there is a very specific cross-border element to this. However, if the Member has any further information, I will be happy to explore that.”
“That will give additional opportunity to have strategic governance within the Middletown Centre. I look forward to its continuing to deliver for parents and young people with autism. I look forward to the centre using its expert skills and, as the Member suggests, considering whatever future direction of travel it needs to take to be able to enhance those services.”