Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“As with anything, although COVID has constrained what can be done from a practical point of view, it is always the case, notwithstanding that, if the capital budget were twice the size, I am sure that, ultimately, twice the money could be spent. It is about operating within that. <BR /> <BR />I understand entirely the frustrations of individual schools that will see issues around that. Sometimes, the answer will be minor works. Sometimes, as the Member mentioned, the danger is that simply doing minor works to a school is throwing a certain amount of good money after bad. That is why we have capital programmes for major works and SEPs. However, that will not cover every situation.”
“The issue is across the sector. The level of investment that is needed is well in excess of what is directly available. At the last call that was made, around 6,000 applications for minor works were received in October 2017, which then had to be ranked. There has been an intervening period since October 2017, and various works have been put in place. Over 1,300 of those schemes have been completed or are being progressed. In addition to that, around 625 emergency and unavoidable schemes have been progressed in the past financial year. I anticipate that a similar number will be done in this financial year. As with anything, the level of capital budget is always a mix between what we have in minor works, what is in the school enhancement programme (SEP) and what is in new school builds. It is about trying to get a mix between those.”
“I thank the Member for his question. The minor works capital programme remains under pressure. However, the Department has successfully bid for an additional £15 million of capital for minor works in the January 2021 monitoring round. Although investing all that additional capital before the end of March 2021 will be challenging, the additional capital is an extremely welcome boost in relieving the ongoing pressures.”
“The idea will be to drive as much consistency as possible. There is always going to be a certain element of subjective judgement. Can you have absolute, pure consistency? We will strive to have it as much as possible. Both the guidance from CCEA and the training will take place during February. At the moment, and for the rest of February, good work is ongoing in schools with remote learning. There will be a level of flexibility because there will be that opportunity for the training. We want to make sure that that is done as quickly as possible but also in a thorough manner.”
“Although there were issues with the algorithm, such issues happened in pretty much every jurisdiction. We found that in different jurisdictions. A good deal later, there were issues with, for example, the leaving cert in the Republic of Ireland, the results of which were issued a month or two after the UK jurisdictions issued theirs. Clearly, we have tried to ensure that lessons have been learned, and there has been a full examination of what went on last year. Let us not fall into the trap of scapegoating people who tried to use professional judgement and tried to get what appeared to be the best possible outcome. People deserve fair judgement, and the Deloitte report covers that in a fair amount of detail.”
“Deloitte has published the report of its independent review of what happened last year, and the full details are there. To be fair, while mistakes were clearly made on the implementation side, I do not want to characterise the professional judgement of CCEA on the basis of, "We don't care about pupils' welfare. We support the algorithm, no matter what". We have to be fair to people about the assessment that they made, particularly in what were quite tight time frames. <BR /> <BR />I will make three other points. First, no algorithm is being used this year. Generally, algorithms are used every year. A particular problem arose because the algorithm results were not backed up by the examination results. Standardisation happens every year, although that is not necessarily realised or known.”
“We do not want a situation where, for example, somebody who was studying for a CCEA exam is given their award long before or long after somebody in the same class who did a different subject gets their grade from a different board. It is about trying to ensure that it is the same across the boards. That is why, to a large extent, we try to ensure that, although Scotland has a slightly different time frame from everywhere else, GCSE awards and A-level awards are provided at the same time every year. That is the reason for that.”
“The issue is the practicalities involved. If the initial work is done towards the end of May and a process of external assessment then needs to take place, the issue is, largely speaking, the practicalities of trying to make sure that all of that can be processed in a practical manner. Also, the longer that you have to assess things and ensure that they have been got right, the more you reduce the risk of any errors occurring. To that extent, the key driver is to make sure that the results of external public examinations are allocated by boards according to the same timescale. That is the issue. It is about trying to ensure that, across jurisdictions and across different boards, all results are issued at the same time.”
“If CCEA finds a sample that is beyond the levels of tolerance, it will do deeper sampling. The next stage is to engage with the school directly. There will be a professional discussion, and it may well be the case that CCEA says, "Look at your processes. If there are problems with your processes, you may need to rerun them". It is about a professional conversation taking place, and we are happy to spell out that level of detail in any correspondence or communication that is put in place.”
“The maximum amount of detailed information will be given to schools and frequently asked questions will be answered for parents, because I understand that there are concerns. <BR /> <BR />As I outlined, the process of grading will start with initial assessment in school, and then there will be internal moderation in school. There will always be concern among students as to, "Does my teacher rate me? Do they like me?". We want to make sure that there is no favouritism. A high level of professional judgement will be used, but internal moderation will also happen in schools. The next stage is that the provisional positions will be given to CCEA, and it will do sampling across every school. To provide reassurance, that will be on the basis of, largely speaking, one unit per school.”
“There are a couple of issues there. Everyone will get a result, whatever the examination board. However, to give you more detail, there are concerns over the direction of travel of WJEC as regards its qualifications. It is also the case that WJEC uses Eduqas as an awarding body. That is largely designed for the external market to Wales, and no restriction has been placed on that. That will be an issue across the Welsh boards and it will be kept under review. That issue does not impact on any current learner, and any action that is being considered will impact only on those seeking to do a course from September 2022 onwards. Anyone currently looking at AS or A levels will be given grades.”
“They are content, provided there is a broad similarity among jurisdictions. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned, there have been direct conversations between CCEA and the Irish university authorities. As a former Minister, Mr O'Dowd can testify that, in the past, there has been friction, North/South, over recognition of qualifications. However, we are assured that the Irish university authorities will recognise our qualifications. <BR /> <BR />I suspect that there has not been much broad international discussion beyond that, because relatively few of our students seek a university place outside Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland. Broadly speaking, universities across the world will recognise the unique circumstances that we have been in with COVID. They will make allowances for that.”
“The Member makes a valid point. With regard to examinations and qualifications, Scotland tends to be in a slightly different place to the rest of us; it has always had very different education and qualifications systems. We have conversations with Scotland, but it is probably on a slightly different plane to other UK jurisdictions. <BR /> <BR />We try to maintain the system of three-nation comparability, so that we are on a similar plane with England and Wales on those issues. That is not simply comparing students in Belfast with those in Birmingham or wherever. It is also the case that, roughly speaking, 20% of our qualifications come from examination boards based outside Northern Ireland. There has to be fairness. As I indicated, there have been discussions with the higher education authorities.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned the oral element specifically, and, as part of that, when working with CCEA and public health, there are particular issues with levels of assessment. There will be classroom evidence that has been banked and can be used, but a formal oral test was felt, from a public health point of view, to be one of the components of an examination that would leave things at most risk in terms of the spread of COVID. It was about trying to balance that out as well. <BR /> <BR />As I announced, there will be a broader holistic element, so for languages, for example, schools will be able to use whatever evidence they have gathered on, for instance, an oral basis, and feed that into their assessment of the centre-determined grade. There is no barrier to that.”
“As part of that, a recommendation was also made that, in 2021-22, a level of support would be required for pupils, particularly on the academic side. That is why we got a commitment directly from the Executive about bringing forward papers in relation to that. <BR /> <BR />The point about mental health is well made, and COVID recovery money was made available this year for well-being. Again, I would look to the Executive for an extension of that. Even prior to COVID, there was money secured this year in the budget to expand the support that was available for well-being and mental health issues. Mental health will be a growing issue, and a lot of it will not be immediately apparent on day one.”
“A paper would need to be produced in relation to that. The best cure for dizziness is to sit down after a while. I admire the ingenuity of the Member in bringing the discussion back to a range of issues, and I share his concerns. <BR /> <BR />I have indicated, particularly on the academic side — there is an opportunity for further bids to be made for next year's COVID funding — that, when the proposals were made and the Executive looked at the situation in one of their more recent meetings, we tried to give certainty to students, teachers, parents and beyond for the period after half-term and there was an extension to 5 March. Without breaking any Executive confidentiality, I can say that there was a paper that scoped out the options, made a recommendation and looked beyond that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Indemnification will not provide a level of protection not only directly for schools, which is needed, but for teachers so that they can exercise their professional judgement without the fear of a looming court case hanging over them. That is the right way to do it.”
“That has been done by officials with the idea that, whilst there is no perfect solution, broadly speaking, this is a route that people are content with. One of the obstacles to this is that a couple of aspects require further work. The issue is to get, if you like, the 90% announcement out at this stage, while working on the final details, rather than wait until the end of February or March before we make a picture that covers everything. <BR /> <BR />Yes, consultation has taken place and will be ongoing as we move towards implementation. The next stage is that guidance will be issued and training will be done in February. It is a cooperative process between schools and CCEA.”
“We have gone through this. In one sense, part of the reason was to try to front-load consultation, rather than back-load it, in order to give people certainty. There would have been the option of simply doing some form of entirely internal process, coming up with a set of proposals and then putting them out to wider consultation for a period of time. However, that only creates a level of uncertainty, so we have been working with a stakeholder group of post-primary principals drawn from all sections: non-academic selective; academic selective; and different sectors. We have also consulted the teaching unions directly on their position on it. We have had the opportunity to have a level of road testing on this, just as we did with announcements on examinations, with groups of students.”
“It is not simply the danger of making things more difficult for our pupils by having a higher tariff to gain grades; if the CCEA results were seen as some level of easy route or soft touch, that would create a danger for our pupils as well. It would mean that, in some circumstances, universities and others may take a view that our qualification is not worth as much as one from another jurisdiction. This is about trying to maintain, as much as possible, a level of fairness across the board so that there is no disadvantage to our pupils.”
“<BR /> <BR />Work has been ongoing with CCEA and Ofqual, and what is being announced today will mean that England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be on a level playing field. It may be that the details of arrangements are not exactly the same, but we believe that there can be a direct comparability and portability. Students will want to be in a position that, either immediately or later in life, whatever destination they take to get what they want to achieve, there will be no barriers. Similarly — this is one of the areas in which there is further work to be done — that is why the Joint Council for Qualifications (JCQ) is looking to make sure that any mechanisms that are put in place across the jurisdictions and between boards for appeals are of a roughly similar nature. <BR /> <BR />As I said, there are two dangers.”
“Yes. The issue has indicated that, arguably, there are three levels of fairness that we need to ensure. The first is fairness between centres, so that, regardless of which school a student goes to, they will be treated fairly and on an equal basis with one another; that is with regard to Northern Ireland examinations in particular. Secondly, there should be a level of fairness between students from Northern Ireland and students from other jurisdictions, particularly those who will use their qualifications to compete for a place in further or higher education or employment. Thirdly, there needs to be a level of equity between Northern Ireland students who are doing different courses.”
“CCEA will be able to take into account the very specific circumstances facing individuals.”
“For example, if it is something that has happened not across the school but only to particular individuals, that can be taken into account when arriving at a holistic judgement. The assessment that the school will produce for a child who has been massively disrupted by COVID may be on a different scale. However, because it is holistic in nature it will not be a formulaic process that says that a certain period of time off means that you will achieve a certain mark. The school will be in a good position to make judgements, and that will be taken into account in any assessment. <BR /> <BR />When CCEA does external assessment, it will not be on the basis of whether an individual student's result is right; it will be about whether the school's broad range has been pitched it at the right level.”
“Schools will have the opportunity to make allowances. I appreciate that the Member makes cogent points about where we are with the COVID allowances. When we were looking specifically at a COVID allowance, we were looking at something that would embed a mathematical formula into this. Previously, when we looked at basing it on reduced course content and an examination, you would have had a mark that was then adjusted. That will not be the case with this. Schools will be able to draw on their own experience, not what, they believe, students would achieve if they were suddenly flung into an examination room but where, they believe on a wide range of evidence, the balance of a pupil's abilities in a subject would be. I think that schools will be able to do that.”
“Yes. As I indicated, practical circumstances will mean that some of that will be more challenging. However, it will depend on the subject matter. For example, certain elements of practical coursework will be particularly relevant to certain courses. The idea is that CCEA will give guidance and training on awarding, but there is no barrier to the level of evidence that can be produced. Consequently, assessment can take place on a practical basis. In many instances, schools will have already banked that knowledge, particularly from the first term. As we move forward, I hope that there will be other opportunities to bank that as well. There is the flexibility for a holistic judgement to be made rather than it being based specifically on one test, so those things will be able to be taken into account.”
“From a legal point of view, from the point of view of public examinations and from the point of view of the quality of information, there is a clear distinction between this and what will happen to P7 pupils. I am sure that is a debate we will come back to, but today is about the public qualifications that happen towards the latter stages of students' academic careers.”
“We give a range of criteria for indemnification. However, by its nature, it does not remove the legal responsibility and authority of boards of governors to make that choice, although it may incentivise particular routes. Legally, whether it is via previous legislation, such as the Coronavirus Act, the Department does not have the power to impose, and that has been looked at in great detail. <BR /> <BR />Essentially, one of the differences is that a private organisation runs transfer testing but public examinations fall squarely under the remit of the Department of Education. CCEA has direct control of public examinations for Northern Ireland students, but that does not cover every student, as some use examination boards based outside Northern Ireland.”
“Indemnity does take place at times with post-primary transfer.”
“The difference is that transfer is legally and directly the responsibility of the boards of governors of the authorities of each school. To change that would require a change in legislation. I have looked —.”
“Therefore, I anticipate that there will be a very small number of U grades, but, if we were simply to rule out a particular grade, that would indicate that the system is not a proper one. U grades will be few and far between. <BR /> <BR />The Member is wrong in that you are not comparing like with like when you are comparing P7 students with students in years 12, 13 and 14. As part of this, we are able to have, for instance, assessment resources. Pupils are not competing against each other, so it is about how people are comparing within schools. A small number of schools, for instance, will use some form of academic tool in their post-primary transfer as some degree of gateway mechanism, but a lot of schools will have received advice that suggests that that is not necessarily the most robust system. It is up to each individual school.”
“That was a bit like one of those examination questions where they add the word "discuss" to the end. <BR /> <BR />Every student will be treated fairly. They will not be unfairly penalised because of levels of disruption, but, as with any grading, there is always the possibility. Indeed, last year, I think that a total of eight people got a U grade at A level, which was massively down from normal years. Given that the grades will range down to U grades, the U grade cannot be taken off the table. Whether in a school context or as a private candidate, for someone who, for example, has not engaged whatsoever there remains the possibility of a U grade, but they will be fairly judged. I indicated that I believe that the standards will be largely on the same basis as the end results in 2020.”
“We have that judgement, and it is one that will be put in a robust context to make sure that there can be fairness across the board and that external users, be they employers, universities or others, can be provided with a high level of trust in the qualifications that will emerge.”
“I indicated previously that the arrangements that, potentially, were being put in place for examinations would not have used algorithms. That was adopted not just today but quite a period of time ago. I believe that we have as sound a basis as possible. <BR /> <BR />You mentioned judgements. I have made this clear, and I think that it will be shared by many: if there were normal circumstances and we were in a position to simply go ahead with examinations, we would do so. Examinations represent the most objective way to assess an individual, and I think that everyone accepts that. I think that we have found a route that, again, is consistent with what is going to happen elsewhere.”
“I am not going to simply play to the gallery on what is quite a serious issue. Some of the Member's remarks are made for a certain level of effect rather than reality. The Deloitte report deals with the full detail of the situation. It is clear that circumstances were such that a lot of problems were created for our young people. The indication from that, with regard to the role of the Department and of myself, was that the policy decisions that were taken last year — this is highlighted by the Deloitte report — were got right. Indeed, on that basis, the situation was around some of the implementation issues. <BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned the algorithm. As I said, algorithms have been used in normal years.”
“Every effort will be made to explain as much as possible and communicate as clearly as possible.”
“It is like seeing the internal workings of a clock; algorithms would normally be used for standardisation every year, but the circumstances of last year made them a concern. <BR /> <BR />On the broad issue of communications, detailed work will go on between CCEA and the schools. I hope to issue detailed information directly to schools later today. As part of that, over the next few days, the Department's website will have a "frequently asked questions" section that people can delve into. We will also, hopefully tomorrow, issue a version of that information directly to parents so that they can avail themselves of it. The Deloitte report highlighted the issues with communications quite late on in the day, rather than what was being done in March and April on the policy side.”
“I do not know what the transfer fee was for the Member. <BR /> <BR />In terms of the broader issues, we have taken, across the board, in relation to this —. Indeed, I suppose that these announcements, in terms of details, because there is still consultation happening elsewhere, probably predate other groups within that. The Member talks about coming to a conclusion on some of the issues, and he is right about the detail being there. Moderation itself will essentially be internal to the school. There is then, as I outlined in the statement, a level of external assessment on the basis of an iterative process between the schools and CCEA. I gave an assurance that algorithms would not be used. Last year, to be fair, algorithms were used initially in every jurisdiction.”
“I was going to welcome the Member to his new role. He has come to the Education Committee via the January transfer window.”
“Similarly, for those who will seek to continue their studies in the Republic, the Irish Universities Association has been apprised of the Northern Ireland approach and confirmed that it will accept UK results by the exam boards. The regulator has also confirmed that. Hopefully, none of our students should be in any way disadvantaged.”
“It is also the case that a number of our pupils, particularly at A level, take exams with examination boards outside Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The level of demand means that higher education providers will see these as valid qualifications. Work has been ongoing between CCEA, as the regulator, and higher education providers. The providers recognise that this is an extraordinary context in which qualifications have been put in place. As such, there is recognition from universities that we have a system here that is within the ballpark of what the other jurisdictions will do. That is the case for UK higher education.”
“I thank the Member for his question. It is important that we ensure that, from that perspective, there is fairness across the system, particularly when it comes to the higher education system, where there is competition between pupils for university places, for instance. It is important that they can compete on a level playing field with others, not just throughout the UK but in the Republic of Ireland and other places. As such, if the slope — if I may put it this way — were to be made steeper for our pupils, making it more difficult to achieve the same grades, it would disadvantage them. Similarly, perhaps the less-considered position is this: if circumstances were such that pupils received grades that were perceived to be an awful lot easier to achieve than in other jurisdictions, it would create a level of suspicion.”
“The more holistic opportunities are ones that will be able to take account of that and be able to tailor those needs to individual pupils.”
“On the broader levels of mitigation within the results side, because we are asking schools to make assessments of the learning profile of our students, it is not a question of making second guesses about what they would have done in examinations, because different pupils will have had different levels of disruption. As such, schools are in a holistic position to mirror out what they believe the abilities of their pupils to be. Consequently, undoubtedly, not only will different schools be in different places but we know that individuals will be in different places. Some, particularly during the first period, will have missed a relatively small amount of time; others will have missed a more extensive amount.”
“To that extent, when I put to the Executive the paper dealing with the situation between now and March, one of the elements of that was to look at a catch-up scheme, similar to the Engage programme, which would take place in 2021-22 and be funded via COVID money. I will bring the details of those proposals to the Executive, but I have received their agreement in principle for that scheme.”
“However, it undoubtedly creates disruption for pupils. I am sure that the Member and, indeed, the whole House, would agree that face-to-face teaching is the best possible means of teaching compared with remote learning.”
“Just to clarify, I assume that the Member's last question refers, effectively, to repeating the year. I am just checking. I will deal with that. There is provision, I think, in current guidance that is given to schools and, indeed, to boards of governors, where, for a small number of pupils, the year will be repeated. That was already in place, and there is the opportunity to use that. Doing an overall repeat of the year across the sector would simply not be practicable from a logistical or financial point of view. It would also mean that levels of education would be held back. There is a strong need, and the Member rightly mentions the days of disruption that have taken place. <BR /> <BR />It is important to note that there is greater readiness and ability during this phase to provide remote learning.”
“Fairness to pupils is my priority, and that will continue to be at the forefront of every decision I take. In these exceptional circumstances, I have taken exceptional and unprecedented steps to ensure that our young people are supported to progress in education, training or employment. <BR /> <BR />Again, I commend the work of all our school leaders and teachers for their efforts in these difficult times.”
“I understand that the Minister has instructed CCEA Regulation to ensure that awarding organisations put in place suitable alternative awarding arrangements that are reflective of this year's particular circumstances and will ensure that those learners receive fair and timely results. <BR /> <BR />I understand that Minister Dodds expects clarity on the alternative arrangements for the majority of vocational qualifications to be provided by awarding organisations as early as possible in March 2021. In relation to essential skills and other Northern Ireland-only qualifications, the Minister expects clarity on the alternative arrangements to be available by the end of February 2021. <BR /> <BR />I thank the House for the opportunity to address Members on these important issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise that some learners may be working towards other entry-level or vocational qualifications provided by an awarding organisation other than CCEA. Those qualifications fall under the remit of the Department for the Economy. The Minister for the Economy recently announced the cancellation of all external vocational examinations for the remainder of the year, including essential skills. Adaptations to assessments will also be required, where possible, for the wide range of vocational qualifications relating to occupational competence, such as a licence to practise.”