Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
The complete record
Every one of 3,831 lines we hold for Peter Weir, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 10 of 77.
“The Member nods her head. She is, I am sure, clearly aware that development proposals (DPs) do not come from the Department of Education but from various sectoral bodies. However, the people who give the legal verdict on whether a DP is approved, not approved or modified is the Department and, more specifically, the Minister. We seem to be left in a situation where those who would give the verdict are the people who then make provision to encourage those DPs in the first place. It is a bit like saying to a judge, "You have a target for the number of convictions that you have to make this year, but, by the way, you must judge all these cases on a level playing field". It drives a coach and horses through the idea of area planning.”
“Do not forget that not all integrated schools are GMI. Also, if we are to have equality across the board, as indicated, will we have equality on the basis of saying that all schools are put on exactly the same framework? If that is the case, it also means that, for the development of a new school, there should be identical numbers to the controlled and maintained sectors. I welcome that clarification. <BR /> <BR />Let me give you one other example of the muddled thinking. This takes us into a dangerous position in area planning. There is a requirement that "targets and benchmarks" of the Department must also include the:”
“I am genuinely bewildered about why the clause is here, so I am happy to give way.”
“However, the question is this: what is available? There should be no gateway check on any sector so that it gets an additional level of resources. Training is available for all sectors. Either this is unnecessary or it gives favourable treatment to one sector. Are we to say that, in training, if you happen to work for a controlled school or a maintained school, you should be given a lower level of access? I see the Member shaking her head.”
“Some Members mentioned the costs of division, but that would explicitly establish new schools and deliberately disregard where spare places exist, including if there were spare places in a local integrated school. You can still build another one on that basis. That, at best, seems to be muddled thinking. <BR /> <BR />Again on cost, there are fairly ill-defined requirements of the integrated education strategy on a number of points — for instance, clauses 8(2)(a) and (d) — to have increased "funding commitments and resources". We are told — it has been reiterated on a number of occasions — of the financial pressures that schools are under, yet, mystically, the Department will find those additional resources simply to promote particular activity. <BR /> <BR />Mr O'Dowd raised the point, at clause 8(2)(c), that the Department must:”
“I see the Member chuntering from the sidelines. I am glad to see that the Member reaches out the hand of friendship to People Before Profit. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is riven with muddled thinking and a costly approach. In muddled thinking, consider the "Meaning of promotion" at clause 5(1)(a). I have some sympathy with looking at how supply could be increased to meet demand, but this takes an almost Stalinist approach of aiming to increase demand. You can pick any type of school you want so long as you pick an integrated school, because we have to push up the demand. If, as we have been told, there is survey evidence of the demand, one wonders why this is necessary. There seems to be muddled thinking about pushing up demand. <BR /> <BR />With clause 5(1)(b), there is the issue of finance.”
“It is strange. At best, it is silent on the issue; at worst, it, effectively, imposes a single sector on every potential school. Indeed, as I will come to later, it is, effectively, about badging schools rather than driving them from that. The third reason that this is fatally flawed is that it produces —”
“A presumption that every school that is built from now on, be it because of an amalgamation or simply to deal with a growth in population, will be an integrated school, unless it falls into those special circumstances, is saying to the controlled sector, the maintained sector and the Irish-medium sector that they cannot have a new school built unless they have what seem to be ill-defined "special circumstances" to justify it in some way.”
“Where does it leave maintained schools, controlled schools and other schools? It is a clear attempt to put one section and one set of choices on a higher plane than others and to send out a strong signal to parents that, if you dare to choose a different path for your child and if you believe that there is a school that lies outside the integrated sector, you are, in some way, not making the right choice for your child. <BR /> <BR />That is reinforced in the much-attacked clause 7, which talks about new schools. Earlier, the proposer gave a definition of new schools and clarified that she was talking about newly created schools rather than newly built schools. I have to say, however, that that is not in the Bill, so that is one of the things that would have to change if it progresses.”
“If the sponsor of the Bill or, indeed, anyone in the House can point to any school in Northern Ireland that is not based on and is not delivering on those principles, that should be cause for concern for the Department of Education. To say that those things are purely ring-fenced for integrated education, as with clause 1, is an insult to other schools. <BR /> <BR />We move on to clause 4, which provides for a shift from the 1989 requirement to "encourage and facilitate" integrated education, which is done largely through NICIE, to "encourage, facilitate and promote". At present, promotion is in the legislation on shared education, which involves all sectors. However, if we take a single sector and say that it alone should be promoted, where does that leave the other sectors? Where does it leave, for example, the Irish-medium sector?”
“<BR /> <BR />If we look at clause 2, which is, I think, the one clause that Mr O'Dowd did not mention in his speech, we see:”
“The second area, which the Member for South Belfast raised, is the equality issues. I believe fundamentally that all our children should be treated equally and that the rights of parents and, indeed, their choices should be treated equally, but this is not equality. It puts one sector at a different level and on a higher plane than any other sector. That is writ large throughout the Bill. Mr O'Dowd mentioned that in respect of clause 1. Clause 1 gives a definition of integrated education, and clause 2 sets out its purpose. If the intention is to say that what is set out in clause 1 pertains only to integrated education, that is, fundamentally, an insult to the schools out there that are delivering that. I will not reiterate the issues that Mr O'Dowd raised about clause 1.”
“That will have to be very thorough and weighty, and it will take some time. Timescales have been put into that as well. It strikes me that to take one aspect of the wider education system — it is not just a level of tinkering but has fairly fundamental implications — is the wrong approach. Anybody who believes in strategic reform of the education system should say that the Bill pre-empts that and is not necessary.”
“Without going into details — I am sure that the Minister will deal directly with this — there are aspects that have been implemented, and there are others that may well be part of the wider examination. I have mentioned the terms of reference for the independent review, to which all Executive parties signed up, including areas that were covered by the report on integrated education to be put into the independent review. There were a few recommendations that the sector itself did not support. <BR /> <BR />The point is that, even though the report on integrated education was on one specific aspect of education, all of us, I think, would accept that there are wide-ranging issues to be dealt with. We all accepted, rightly, that the way to do that, through NDNA, was for an independent review to take place.”
“The legislation duplicates functions that, in some cases, are already there, but it also pre-empts the independent review. None of us — neither I, nor the Minister nor any of the parties — know what will emerge from that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mention has been made on a number of occasions of the NDNA commitment to an independent review, which all the government parties signed up to. Despite COVID, which delayed things, that is beginning to be put in place. It required terms of reference that had to be agreed by the Executive as a whole, and all five parties agreed to that. It then required public advertisements for those who had expressions of interest, receipt of CVs, a sifting process and interviews of potential members of the independent panel. All those actions have now taken place, and I believe that, in a relatively short time, the Minister will announce that. <BR /> <BR />If we are looking at this in a strategic way, why take one aspect of the education system? Mr O'Dowd asked whether it was necessary legislation on that basis.”
“I was going to come to the issue of equality. However, the Member makes a valid point. It seems to me that, if we are to have the best legislation, having a situation where there has not been an equality impact assessment (EQIA) is strange. Wearing two hats, as a former Minister and a former barrister, I consider it to be a strange position. I am sure that the Member will deal with that in her remarks. It seems to me that, on other occasions, the Alliance Party and others would be strongly arguing that things need to be equality-proofed and EQIA-proofed. Yet, there is a sense that it is not considered necessary in this case, which is not a particularly strategic way of looking at things.”
“We need to take on board where we are. We have a complex system, and it is undoubtedly the case that, if we are to look at a strategic examination of education that involves a wide range of subjects, notwithstanding looking at the issue of a single education system but going well beyond that to, for instance, how we ensure that early years is catered for —.”
“I am not going to go over the issues around consultation and process, but there are strategic considerations. There is an old adage about someone who is stopped and asked for directions replying, "Well, I wouldn't have started from here in the first place". For example, if we were to start with a completely blank page for education, would we produce the precise layout and configuration of the school estate that we currently have?”
“If we are, however, to respect those who seek to have their school become an integrated school, we should also fully respect the right of those who wish to make other choices, be it about a faith-based maintained school; a controlled school; a school that teaches through the medium of Irish, as Mr O'Dowd talked about; a school at post-primary level that is either selective or non-selective; or, and Mr Storey is no longer with us, an independent Christian school. There are also some in our system who choose to teach their children at home through elective home education. It strikes me that we should respect all those choices. <BR /> <BR />I am not going to reiterate everything that has been said so far, but there are four areas of the Bill in which there are fundamental flaws in the content.”
“Those proposals were largely borne out by parental demand and include, for, I think, the first time ever, a Catholic-maintained school transforming into an integrated school. It is perfectly right for parents to express that opinion, for it to be facilitated and encouraged through the Department and for it to be responded to. <BR /> <BR />There is a common theme. Probably the single biggest thing that parents are looking for when they look at a school is the quality of the education provided rather than its exact sectoral specificity.”
“It will probably come as no great surprise that I have, down the years, visited quite a lot of integrated schools and seen the excellent work that has been done in them. Those school visits, and seeing the enthusiasm of young people in particular, are often — I am sure that the Minister will agree — the best part of the job. As well as those excellent integrated schools, I have also visited schools across the sectors — be they Irish-medium, maintained or controlled schools — in which there is excellent delivery. I also fully respect the desire of parents to see a school be transformed into an integrated school. That is entirely their right, and it is a right that has been supported down the years. Even in the past six months, four development proposals to transform to integrated status have been signed off.”
“I thank the Member for his generosity of spirit. He has referred on a number of occasions to the 2016-17 independent review of integrated education. The Minister will be looking at a number of the recommendations that have not as yet been implemented. The integrated sector did not accept all of the 40 recommendations, however, rejecting some of them.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. There is a vagueness of the phrase "reasonable numbers", which the Member has highlighted. It also shows up the muddled quality of the Bill. While it talks about "reasonable numbers" of the two main communities in clause 1, it goes on, in two specific areas, to say that, effectively, when looking at integrated schools or the creation of a new school, there should be an absolute disregard for — indeed, a prohibition on — looking at the religious demographics of an area. If, for example, a new primary school is established in an area where, because of the housing around it, it is overwhelmingly of one community or another, how is that to be balanced with the requirement to have reasonable numbers of a mix of Protestants and Roman Catholics? That seems to me to be a contradiction in the Bill.”
“I thank the Member for giving way on that point. The Member mentions the signal or impression that it sends to pupils, but it also sends a signal to parents that, by choosing one route as opposed to a range of other routes, whether controlled or maintained, they are somehow making a superior choice. That seems to devalue the rights of parents who may say, for instance, that they want a faith-based, maintained Catholic education for their child. It creates a sort of moral hierarchy of school choices.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Is it not particularly concerning that consultation on the draft Bill with the likes of CCMS is taking place only at this stage, particularly given that CCMS is actually named in the Bill? In fact, as it is listed as one of the education bodies that must do certain things, if the Bill is passed into law, some of the provisions will apply directly to CCMS, and yet the Bill has not been discussed with CCMS. At this stage, CCMS is an afterthought.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. As someone who has visited the Middletown Centre for Autism, I encourage anyone, and particularly the Education Committee, to visit it. It is very worthwhile to do so. <BR /> <BR />The Minister said that the UK-wide Turing scheme was raised at the meeting and that she received information on it from the Republic of Ireland. Will she give more background information on the Turing scheme and on what encouragement will be given to schools in Northern Ireland to participate in it?”
“The Minister outlined the levels of relief during COVID, which is very welcome. What thinking is being given to transitional arrangements so that the 18% reduction that he mentioned does not suddenly escalate in one jump to a position in which much higher rates have to be paid?”
“I do not think that anyone in the House is interested in undermining this scheme, but we want to make sure that every aspect of it is carried out properly. If any Member was hiring an employee and got a CV from an applicant who had shown horrendous problems in previous employment, none of us would touch that applicant with a barge pole. <BR /> <BR />The Minister is keen on facts. Capita was awarded the contract by way of a procurement exercise. Will the Minister spell out specifically what level of weighting, when assessing Capita and any other organisations that were seeking this contract, was given to the past performance of the organisation before awarding and in scoring this for procurement?”
“As Members have indicated, this has been a critically difficult time for industries across the board in their response to COVID, particularly the travel industry. Obviously, I welcomed the Minister's announcement on Thursday that he was launching NIDAKS, and I note that there has been a very warm welcome to that from our three airports. Can the Minister give the House some more detail on that scheme and how it will be helpful to the travel industry and to airports in particular as we move ahead?”
“Producing a report and finding consensus on how to implement it can be two different things. Does the Minister agree that it is important that that consensus be reached? Can he therefore give an assurance that all parties and all Ministers will be involved in finding consensus on the way forward?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. She will be aware of the good work that is often done over the summer, particularly by uniformed organisations. Will she provide an assurance that youth gatherings and overnight residential trips will be treated as a specific priority when the Executive are discussing relaxations next week?”
“However, quite a lot of those scams will involve people purporting, in writing or on the telephone, to represent national UK-wide agencies such as HMRC or DVLA. Can the Minister outline what steps are being taken on a cross-jurisdictional basis to cooperate to try to combat those scams?”
“I welcome the work in Northern Ireland to which the Minister referred.”
“If I am being honest, there was no legitimate reason for the council to do that work, but he badgered me, Alan Graham and Trevor Polley. Week after week, we said to him, "Gordon, look, there's just no way that we can do this. This cannot be done", but he came back again and again until, eventually, maybe to shut him up, we said, "Yes. Here's a way we've found to be able to do this". That was typical of Gordon. He would fight for his constituents to the bitter end. He has delivered for thousands, and, as a result, there are thousands of people who will mourn his passing. Gordon, like me, enjoyed a bit of a pun, and, for an election, he quite liked the slogan, "Vote Gordon for a job well Dunne". Today, we reflect on a life well Dunne.”
“You could not call into the house or call over to the office without the kettle going on and a cup of tea or coffee being offered, even if you were in a hurry, but that was not really enough, because then it would be, "Would you not take that wee pancake", "Look, here's some sandwiches", or "Here's some buns that have been left over". That was very much the measure of the man. <BR /> <BR />Finally, on service, Gordon was a man who devoted his adult life — I think that he was elected to North Down Borough Council when he was 21 or 22 — to the people of North Down in general and the people of Holywood in particular. He was an indefatigable fighter for those people. I think particularly of a series of occasions on which he pressed very strongly for the council to do work on a road.”
“To Gillian, Andrew, Stephen, Amy and the wider circle, I pass on my condolences in what must be heartbreaking days. On friendship, as we have seen, Gordon was abundant in the level of his friendship. We have seen, not just in the council chamber but in the Assembly Chamber, the extent to which he would have banter and craic with everyone, from whichever background they came; it did not matter to Gordon. On a number of occasions, either after a council meeting, on a phone call or across a chamber, the extent of friendship and engagement from Gordon was extraordinary. <BR /> <BR />We have talked in recent weeks about the opening up of hospitality. Gordon was a one-man hospitality machine.”
“I rise on this sad occasion to pay tribute to my colleague of 16 years in North Down Borough Council and then the Assembly but, above all, my friend of many more years. Much has been said of Gordon's integrity and humour, and I echo that, but there are four words that, in my mind, epitomise what was at the heart of Gordon Dunne: faith, family, friendship and service. He was a man of strong Christian faith, and if there is comfort in the sadness that we face today, it is knowing that he is safe in the arms of Jesus. He was a man who, in his faith, did not simply talk the talk or go to church on a Sunday but lived his life through true Christian principles, and he demonstrated that in the way that he treated other people. <BR /> <BR />There was no more devoted family man that I can think of than Gordon Dunne.”
“I speak as a carer. Another related issue that has been seen during COVID is that those who are cared for, particularly where dementia is involved, find it difficult to understand why they cannot go out, and people not being able to come into the house has also had a major impact on many families and those with caring responsibilities.”
“I remember also the many one-to-one private interactions that Arlene had with people and her many personal kindnesses. I was among the many who received the benefit of them. <BR /> <BR />The one thing that I particularly associate with Arlene is loyalty: to her friends and family, to her beloved Fermanagh and South Tyrone, to the people of Northern Ireland and to the unionist cause. Loyalty sometimes comes at a cost, but that cost is always a price worth paying. As Arlene looks forward to the next chapter of her life, I assure her that I remain not only her colleague but her loyal friend.”
“I can reflect, as others do, on the many public achievements that she has been associated with, from the reform of local government to the massive boost that she gave to the economy as Economy Minister; from the confidence-and-supply agreement to taking us through the pandemic; to shattering the glass ceiling; and, indeed, most recently, having the guts to take on internet trolls. <BR /> <BR />I also reflect on the private Arlene. She has always been good company and good banter. I can remember a duet once that involved Arlene and Nelson McCausland. They sang 'Islands In The Stream', and, somehow, Nelson McCausland managed to sing Dolly Parton's part.”
“, but she was helping out her future husband Brian at the Wyvern Inn in Lisnaskea. That was in the days before she was at Queen's. I am not sure that it entirely fitted with the licensing laws, but I will leave that aside. Since that first meeting, I have known Arlene through her days at Queen's, her days at Windsor Avenue with Julie, Wendy and Joanne, her days in the Young Unionists, her days as a solicitor, her days in the DUP, her days as Environment Minister, Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, Finance Minister and, finally, First Minister.”
“I have heard valedictory occasions such as this being described as the closest that you will ever get to being at your own funeral without the inconvenience of dying, but, if that is the case, I will slightly misquote Shakespeare: I come not to bury Caesar but to praise her. <BR /> <BR />I can rightly claim, I think, to be the person in the House who has known Arlene Foster longest; indeed, I knew her before she was Arlene Foster. She is a person who was shaped not simply by the events of the Troubles but by a loving family environment, which meant that she built strength of character and resilience but never at the expense of humanity or with bitterness. <BR /> <BR />I can recall the first time that I met Arlene, and, to slightly misquote The Human League, she was not quite working as a waitress in a cocktail bar when I first met her”
“Potentially. It is not always that the Children's Commissioner and I find ourselves in agreement; indeed, I suspect that the Member might not always be on the same page as her either. I do not know whether this is a virtuous circle. <BR /> <BR />The matter has been put to the task force. It will bring proposals for the meeting on Thursday. It is Monday, and Executive members are not notified as early as this of what has emerged from the task force. I hope that we can move to a voluntary position as soon as possible.”
“The requirement has been lifted in England. Medical officers indicated to the Department that, when we reached a level of community transmission similar to that in England when the requirement was lifted there, they would support that occurring in Northern Ireland. We are getting to that position. For our young people, the sooner we can move back to as much normality as possible, the better.”
“This imposition should be kept to an absolute minimum. The Department of Education has put its position to the task force: the Department wants it to be entirely voluntary, as it was at the very start. No one is denying anybody the right to wear a mask if they so desire, but the Department believes that it is time to move within that.”
“There seem to be distractions to the right and to the left today. <BR /> <BR />Balanced against that is the fact that, particularly for relatively young children, there is a period of time in class that goes beyond the requirements that adults such as the Member and I face.”
“I thank the Member for that question. Ultimately, as with any lifting of restrictions, the matter is down to the overall Executive position and, indeed, the task force's position. While there is some evidence that wearing face coverings will reduce levels of transmissibility, I am sure the Member will also be aware —”
“There will always be an assessment. I welcome the Member's commitment to lobby the Finance Minister to provide additional support to the Department of Education, and it is good that we are all on the same page. Clearly, there is a commitment to try to resolve the pay issue, and, as such, from the point of view of the numbers, that will also reflect where there needs to be agreement on the basis of the workload that each educational welfare officer undertakes. That will show a pathway to how many, if any, additional workers are required.”
“Directly speaking, I think that there are established procedures in which pay disputes can be dealt with. I am not the direct employer of the educational welfare officers, so I think that it would be wrong for me to try to parachute into an industrial dispute where I do not have the power to produce a particular settlement. A lot of good work has been done by educational welfare officers, and a lot of good work is done in a range of activities.”