Peter Weir
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Funding was secured for that scheme, and we have been able to take further steps on it. As highlighted by my colleague Diane Dodds, we have seen my successor, the current Minister, be able to implement it at the beginning of September 2021 and funding be made available for it.”
“One of the great fears — I saw it particularly, as Education Minister, from the point of view of children and the domestic setting between partners — was what was going to happen in families when the doors closed and the locks went on. What was happening behind closed doors?”
“There is another significant element of the Bill. I have spoken about it in the Chamber on a couple of occasions. There is always a slight danger that we, as legislators, see legislation as being the end of a process and think that we can pack it away, put it on the shelf and forget about the problem because it has been solved.”
“I welcome the passage of the Bill's Final Stage and commend all the campaigners who have pressed so hard for it and the Bill sponsor. For Pat Catney, hearing some of the tributes must be like hearing eulogies at your funeral, without having to go through the indignity of dying, which is always a double advantage.”
“As highlighted by a number of Members, the impact of period poverty, though not confined to it, has been particularly acute in young women's education. We know that the impact can lead to the missing of education and constraints within education, and that it does so in a disproportionate way.”
“I support the Bill's Final Stage, and I commend the Bill's sponsor for introducing it. I thank the Minister and the Department for the positive attitude that they have taken towards it.”
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“I welcome the opportunity to respond to the motion. First, I commend all our school staff who are supporting some of our most vulnerable pupils, and there is a real desire to do that. <BR /> <BR />I apologise to the House. I was a little late at the start of the debate, but it was for a good reason. Mention has been made by a number of Members of vaccination, and I look particularly to Mr McCrossan and Mr McNulty. I was late because I had a paper on vaccination at the Executive. Given some of the time constraints on Executive members this morning, we were unable to bring that to a complete conclusion. Executive members will debate the paper again on Thursday. It is undoubtedly clear to me —.”
“I thank all Members for their valuable contributions. The tone of the debate has been generally fairly good. Miss Bradshaw made a very pertinent point. I appreciate that it lies beyond my scope and that of the Education Committee; there is a range of crossover issues with Health. I will try to deal with it as best I can. There is close working with Health, and there will be aspects to which the Department of Health is in a better position to respond.”
“The Member seems to be in some way quoting me. I have indicated that the risk in schools tends to be relatively low, but I have never ever suggested that schools, teachers or pupils are "immune" to the virus. I have never used that terminology. I wish the Member would, at least, quote me accurately.”
“Similarly, with regard to school transport, we have been working with EA on a range of measures. A particular issue is the level of compliance on wearing face coverings on school transport, so there will be spot checks. The EA will work with us to push up that compliance as much as possible. To some extent, there is a level of constraint with regard to the numbers on school transport, but there will be a dramatic impact, particularly during the four-week period, when, effectively, about one third of the school population will be taken out of the picture. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that people raised a number of other points. We will try to get back to them.”
“However, there will be availability, and if, moving forward, any additional measures can be taken to support that, they will be taken. <BR /> <BR />In relation to interventions, we will make it clear that the wearing of face coverings within schools will apply to lessons in all post-primary schools. That will apply for the January period, at least, and will be reviewed; indeed, all measures are under constant review.”
“Members identified the impact that some of the restrictions that we have put in place will have on a broader societal level — quite often, on young parents. It is clear that, even with the new variant, very young children are not, generally speaking, impacted to the same extent. Certainly, the clear medical position is one of being relaxed about provision being in place throughout. <BR /> <BR />I also take on board the position of special schools, whose pupils make up about 2% of the school population. School is important for many of those children, particularly those with autism, who need routine. Others depend on special schools for medical interventions. Often, families are highly dependent on that. Other parents will take the view that they want their child to be at home. Ultimately, that will be a decision for families.”
“We are cognisant of the fact that a range of schools might want to have, for example, a revision class. Those schools will want that freedom to manoeuvre, so we are giving that flexibility. Similarly, as Ms Armstrong mentioned, some year 11s will do GCSEs in June. Again, some flexibility will be given to schools in relation to that cohort for that four-week period. In most cases, much of this will be covered by remote learning. Schools may want to have an additional aspect. I should point out another small variation, which is that, in the Dickson plan, year 10 in junior high schools is also counted as an exam year, so there will be some additional flexibility there. <BR /> <BR />Issues were raised about childcare, preschool and nurseries.”
“As mentioned, for many vulnerable children, unfortunately, the risk of being at home can be much greater than the risk of being at school. It is about providing that space. In terms of equality of provision, it is not a question of, for example, one year 8 group being taught in school while another year 8 group has the provision of remote learning; there will be equality across the board on that. <BR /> <BR />I want to clarify the position on examinations, particularly those that will impact on years 11, 12 and 13. Around 26,000 children will do GCSE examinations between 11 January and 14 January. It may well be that, in the first week of January, for many of those children, the best option will be remote learning or some scenario in which they are able to revise.”
“There is a wider call to be made to the UK Government to take any action that they can to speed up provision. I have no doubt that, in Northern Ireland, everything will be done to administer whatever we get as quickly as is humanly possible. The sooner that can be done, the better. <BR /> <BR />An issue was raised about the teachers of vulnerable groups and children of key workers. In the first phase of the pandemic, the number of those children who came in was relatively small. Teachers are not being asked to do face-to-face teaching and provide remote learning simultaneously. It would be impossible, and no one is suggesting that. Critically, this is about providing space for those children to be in school.”
“Therefore, it does not lie entirely in the hands of the Health Minister, to be fair to him. In prioritising, the JCVI has taken a clinical view, which means that, overwhelmingly, in the early stages, vaccination will be based on age. As I indicated, two thirds of those who have died were over the age of 80; over 90% were over the age of 65. They are also the people who are most vulnerable to being seriously ill. However, I would like teachers to move to vaccination as quickly as possible. Again, to be fair to the Health Minister — I seem to be defending him today — any extra resources to speed up the process will be helpful. The key determinant will not be the logistics or the availability of people; it will be the extent of the vaccine that we get as part of the UK's share.”
“I am very much at one with what people have said about prioritising vaccinations, particularly for special schools and teachers. I have absolutely no problem with that. To be fair, I have written to the Health Minister on this and urged that that be done. Certainly, my understanding is that Northern Ireland is part of the four nations JCVI.”
“We can say that schools are very much an at-risk place, and there is risk everywhere. However, schools are relatively low-risk compared to the levels of risk in the wider community, and that has not changed. <BR /> <BR />Mitigation measures have been put in place. First, catch up and mental health have been mentioned. The Executive has put £12 million into the Engage programme to support catch up. Similarly, an additional COVID recovery fund of about £5 million has been put in place to support mental health and well-being. At best, if there was more money available, could more be done? I am sure it could be, but we have to live within the opportunities that are there. <BR /> <BR />I concur with what has been said about vaccinations. We are working with Health to see what more can be done to roll out testing.”
“I am trying to get through a number of aspects in relation to that. <BR /> <BR />We do need to make it clear that, while whatever additional measures can be taken will be taken, it is not principally the problem of the structures that are within the school gates. It is what is happening beyond, and indeed trying to break and reduce the levels of contact is the reason behind this, particularly the first week that is being targeted. <BR /> <BR />The Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Adviser feel that the likely situation is that the first week will be the peak week after what has worked through from Christmas. It is the most important week to keep people apart and reduce contact within the community as a whole, and that is why that week is being targeted.”
“There are issues around the fact that, when schools are open, there is additional mobility, a greater level of contact between adults, at times there is irresponsible behaviour at the school gates, it effectively frees up adults to engage more socially and gives some of the younger children greater opportunities for socialisation outside of school. There is a tendency towards increased activity when children are at school.”
“There is clear and strong evidence of child-to-child transmission; there is considerable evidence of adult-to-adult transmission; it is relatively rare for any form of transmission to occur between adults and children. <BR /> <BR />It is also the case that if you talk closely to the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Adviser, their concerns about schools are not within the classroom. If I get the chance, I will outline some of the measures within the classroom. Basically, it is not what is happening in the classroom that is the problem. They will say very clearly that it is the behaviour that happens outside the classroom. Indeed, SAGE was not able to distinguish between the impact of schools and the impact of the wider context.”
“First, whether this is on the SAGE paper or internationally, it is undoubtedly the case that the direct clinical threat to children is extremely low. We know that, of those who have died from the virus, over 90% have been aged 65 and over. Children are in a very low-risk group. It is also the case that, whether this is from the SAGE paper, the advice of the PHA or, indeed, from international experience from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, nowhere is risk-free, and I think that everyone will accept that. For example, there is no difference in the number of education staff and teachers who have tested positive for COVID than the rest of society.”
“You can play your part in combating the virus or, alternatively, you can take action to help prevent it. <BR /> <BR />Mention has been made of the SAGE paper. There is probably some misunderstanding about this. The latest SAGE paper was produced shortly before Christmas. I have seen, read and taken it into account. That paper highlighted some of the problems, particularly for children and young people. It is not accurate to say that the paper made any form of recommendation for school closures. It highlighted the problems and damage that would be done to young people by school closures and a number of other things.”
“At the moment, the key driver seems to be the activities of people before Christmas. In some cases, they were very irresponsible activities. Indeed, had people behaved responsibly throughout this, we would be in a much stronger position. I also echo his remarks to heed the words of the Chief Medical Officer and the Minister of Health, particularly as regards this evening. Stay at home. Do not have a New Year's Eve party. If you have planned one, cancel it. <BR /> <BR />This is, above all, a time to act as responsibly as possible. For us all, this involves not just the implications for us as individuals, but the direct health threat to the elderly, the vulnerable and the impact it will potentially have, down the line, on children's education. There is a choice for everyone in this society.”
“Then I had the opportunity to meet directly and discuss the issue with the Minister of Health, the CMO and CSA at 4.00 pm yesterday. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate that one of the accusations is that we are following England. It is very difficult, but I do not suggest that there is any blame on either side. If we had a meeting at 4.00 pm to try to do something before what happened at 3.30 pm yesterday, it is a little bit difficult to do. We continued to work on that. The statement was worked on until about midnight last night. The idea was to try to get these decisions out as quickly as possible, given the circumstances. <BR /> <BR />We are seeing a deteriorating situation. It is believed that the new variant is in Northern Ireland and, indeed, in all the jurisdictions. I echo the words of Minister O'Dowd on this.”
“Statistically, there may be small question marks over some of the figures, on the basis that they are delayed results. However, there is no doubt that we are facing an unprecedented and deteriorating situation. With the vaccine coming, it is hoped that this will be a temporary position, but a major threat is out there. I have consistently said that I agree with the Health Minister that we should not reopen as normal. <BR /> <BR />The Department and I were contacted on Tuesday evening by the Health Minister, the CMO and CSA. They said that further measures needed to be taken. We spent yesterday in discussions and in consultation with them. Initially, there were meetings between the officials of the CMO and CSA, earlier in the day.”
“So, throughout, any actions that have been taken have been the by-product of that joint working. <BR /> <BR />That is undoubtedly the case with this decision as well. Part of the mitigations, and the timing, were to allow for preparation, not just for schools, but for parents. There was an expectation that, with the new variant, we may face into a situation whereby late January and February may become a very dangerous period. <BR /> <BR />Since then, over the last 10 days, things have moved on dramatically. Most significantly, they have moved on with regard to the figures. A week or two ago, they were running in the mid-400s. Shortly before Christmas, it was around 700. However, in a matter of a few days, they moved to over 2,000.”
“Critically, and at the heart of this, is listening to medical and scientific advice. I must listen when I get it, and react to it. Given the speed and course of the pandemic, one of the issues is that, at times, changes have to be made at very short notice. Circumstances change greatly. <BR /> <BR />Let me make it clear that I have worked closely with Robin Swann, the health officials, the CMO and CSA. We worked closely before the Executive agreed the position at the start of the summer with the initial opening. When changes had to be made to move towards full reopening in September, we took advice and held discussions with them. Before the statement on 21 December, there were discussions with them. Indeed, on that very day, we held discussions with the officials of the CMO and CSA, and I spoke directly to the CMO.”
“It is undoubtedly the case that I have also had quite a lot of messages from teachers and principals saying that they want to go back on 4 January — that has been their fairly consistent position — and overwhelmingly from parents who do not want to see any interruption in their children's education. If we are talking about listening, it is undoubtedly the case that there are a range of voices that need to be listened to.”
“That is fair enough. Some Members have been very balanced in what they have said. If that was replicated elsewhere, I would maybe, at times, be keener to give way. <BR /> <BR />Let us be under no illusions. When it comes to the issues around reopening schools, it has been, at times, suggested that there is a unified voice calling for one particular course of action: that is simply not the case. It may well be that the loudest voices will say a particular thing, but, as Education Minister, I probably get more correspondence from individuals than anybody else. There are, undoubtedly, large numbers of teachers who will say that we need to delay and that further things need to happen, and there are some parents who will say that.”
“I have not checked any figures, but I suspect that that is the most times for any Minister.”
“Whatever actions are taken, any disruption to education will hit those who are disadvantaged most. Undoubtedly, even with remote learning or, indeed, in any circumstances, that those from families who are better off financially and can provide that level of support, those who are the brightest in the land will always survive and maybe even thrive. However, for those who are disadvantaged and do not have that level of support and can respond much better in the classroom, anything else is second-best. Any action that is being taken has to be done with the highest level of reluctance. <BR /> <BR />Members talked about listening. I think that I have been at the Education Committee more than 20 times in 2020. We may not always agree, but it is not the case that I am, in some way, deficient in being in front of the Committee.”
“I make absolutely no apology for trying to meet my objective of keeping schools open and keeping face-to-face teaching. I agree with the first half of what Mr O'Dowd said in that regard: it is a tragic day whenever action of this nature has to be taken. Any action taken that causes disruption should be a last resort. I want to minimise the disruption. <BR /> <BR />Regardless of the situation, even with the support measures that can be put in place, it is undoubtedly the case that delayed openings, school closures, remote learning or blended learning are all second-best for our children; face-to-face teaching delivers most. It is not simply a matter of whether there is a device in the household: there is no adequate substitute for face-to-face teaching.”
“I thank all those who have taken part in the debate, many of whom have made cogent and valued contributions. There has been an element of ping-pong across the table, which is, perhaps, not unexpected. On the last day of the year, I thank all those in the education sector for all their work this year. It is important that we acknowledge that. All of us throughout society are working in difficult circumstances, but I applaud that work that has been done to meet the challenges. I also add my congratulations to my colleague, Mr Humphrey, and the former permanent secretary, Derek Baker, on their honours, along with those in the education system who also received honours. <BR /> <BR />My priority is to try to ensure that we get the best possible education for our young people and sustain their life chances.”
“I appreciate that we are in a moving situation and that the need for additional measures has largely arisen out of the situation post-Christmas. From the chronology of events — I was going to deal with this later — we were contacted on Tuesday evening by the Minister of Health, the Chief Medical Officer (CMO) and the Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA) to say that there needed to be a change compared to where we were, and we have been working with them since then. It is difficult, if you like, to retrofit something prior to that when there has been a request for a further change at that particular point.”
“While there is a separate category of vulnerable children in special schools who are not counted under the definition of "vulnerable children", broadly speaking, children who have statements are counted under that definition. We found that a relatively small number came under the accurate definition of "vulnerable children" previously. It covers around 30,000 children.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. If the Member is referring to the Minister down South, it may be helpful if he got her name right. It is Norma rather than Nora.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, although the prospect of any decision being taken on the basis of what he is saying rather than the scientific advice that I have got beggars belief. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk about the return to schools on 4 January. In the last 24 hours, there has also been a shift down South. Given the fact that, until yesterday, the Republic of Ireland took the same position on a return date, I wonder did the Member give the same advice with the same admonishment to his effective party colleagues in Fianna Fáil who, presumably, are in the same position?”
“There is no point in simply producing a report that gathers dust just because, "He said such-and-such, while she said such-and-such", and, as a result, there is no common understanding. That is one of the major challenges that lies ahead. Earlier, I described the review as being the "start of the beginning". Although a level of dovetailing with the Programme for Government and other things is clearly needed, we need to make a start on the review.”
“There will be some work done. It is not really for me to answer directly on the Programme for Government, as that lies with the Executive Office, but progress will be made on it. Whether in the Department of Education or across government, there is no doubt that we have all had to change course because of the COVID situation. As part of the short- and medium-term actions that can be taken, however, there is an attempt to establish a wider vision for education that goes beyond Assembly mandates. All those things will therefore be able to be taken into account. <BR /> <BR />The point that I made earlier is that we need to reach a wider political and societal consensus on as many issues as possible, and that is why there needs to be consultation with the panel.”
“I appreciate the point that the Member has made. First, I have not been done over in any way. The full review of education has to be comprehensive in nature. Different Members in the Chamber, including me, will have particular views on selection. The Member said that the norm is that an interim report will be produced, and that is the case in most sets of circumstances. The wider review simply reflects the need to cover a wide scope, if we are to have a proper review that covers all of education. Again, Members should not fixate on one particular aspect of the review over the wider context. If particular changes are recommended at any stage in the future, it will be for the House to determine what change happens.”
“The establishment of the panel has been scoped out. Its work can clearly be done within budget. For instance, the estimated cost for the 18 months is a little bit over a quarter of a million pounds. I know that we in the Government can have disputes at times over where financial support should be allocated to, but this can be afforded and is well within budget.”
“I am sure that I will retain the same level of open-mindedness as the honourable Member on the subject.”
“That is why, for example, we sought the views of stakeholders on the terms of reference prior to moving forward with them. The principal point is that the review had to get approval from the whole Executive. Without speaking out of turn, I can say that the Executive welcomed this, and, for example, the Economy Minister suggested some changes, and the Justice Minister suggested a change in the use of language, which we were able to take into account. Although the Department of Education is leading on this, it is a wider Executive commitment, which is why it has been through the Executive and why, if there were to be any adjustment at a later stage, we would seek the Executive's approval for it.”
“The aim is to advertise publicly early in the new year for expressions of interest, and we will list the criteria in connection with that. I thank the Member for all the work that she has done in this sphere. Had she written the terms of reference for this a year or two ago, it would have saved my officials an awful lot of work. <BR /> <BR />The Member makes the valid point that the review is cross-departmental. However, with any review or panel, one Department always has the lead role. Consequently, while the review will touch upon a range of other departmental subjects, the strongest place for an independent review of education is within the Department of Education. <BR /> <BR />The Member is right that the NDNA commitments are cross-cutting and apply across the Executive.”
“Preschool will therefore be a part of the review. <BR /> <BR />The Member is right about the critical nature of preschool. Without rehearsing other arguments, I recognise that we sometimes clash over what provision is put in place at certain points in the lifetime of pupils. Getting it right from the start, in the preschool area, is important in shaping our young people. That is not to say that, once children get to the age of five or six, things are abandoned. However, if we try to catch up at a later stage, and we have not had that focus on the preschool stage, there is a danger of children already being behind on the first day of P1.”
“Preschool is considered. One of the bullet points refers to the preparation of children. The first bullet of point of strand 1 reads:”
“There is cognisance of the fact that we have a panel looking at educational underachievement, currently, and it is due to report in May of next year. The idea, as it is with other reports, is that, as the panel works, it is cognisant of what is happening elsewhere and what may well be reported elsewhere. Deloitte has carried out a review of the 2020 situation. As I understand it, the report is at draft stage. I anticipate that it will be published early in the new year.”
“There are about three questions there. I will try to remember them. Sometimes, with Mr McNulty, it is like the prizes going past on 'The Generation Game'. Yes, the idea is to have a symbiotic relationship with any of the reviews that are taking place. The point is that they should not obstruct other reviews but be cognisant of them. That relates not only to the Education Authority but to the wider context of where there is disadvantage in the system, which will be part of the review. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the terms of reference, the point is to have something that is relatively succinct in its nature but to have no bar to what the panel should look at beyond what is put down on paper. The Member also mentioned disadvantaged backgrounds.”
“There is further work to be done on that between myself and the Economy Minister. The Member makes a valid point that there should not be any delays. There is always somebody within the system — in any area — who, because the decision is not to their liking, will be keen to push it down the road. It is important that that does not happen on a range of decisions. There will be ongoing work to ensure that we reach a point, during 2021, at which we can have a full declaration on the 14-19 strategy. That will require further work with the Economy Minister. There will be an examination of how we impact on the learner journey, and that should not be delayed by this. We need to move ahead with finalising that.”
“While I will wait to see precisely what emerges from that, the only limitation on the speed and the extent to which it could be implemented would be the budgetary position, which has not as yet been determined for 2021-22. SEN regulations will, probably, be my top priority for next year's budget. It is important that they are implemented. We must ensure that, as well as providing protection and support for young people who have special educational needs, the SEN regulations and the code of practice have a positive long-term impact. A lot of it is about ensuring collaboration and cooperation and that, as far as possible, there are earlier interventions, which would be of benefit to the young people and the wider system.”
“I will try to speak into the microphone. I know that, at times, there may be some who feel that not hearing what I am saying may be a positive advantage. Nevertheless, for the sake of Hansard, I will make sure that I speak into the microphone. <BR /> <BR />Special education is a part of all of that. That goes back to one of the issues that has been raised. Work is ongoing in special education, and we should not wait for the review to report before those things can be put in place. As the Member outlined, the work on the SEN regulations and the code of practice is coming to a conclusion. There was a slight extension to the time frame to allow for discussions on those matters.”
“It will be about trying to make sure that we have a broader way forward that can also be compatible with what, ultimately, is affordable. We may all come with very different visions but, if any of us were given an extra £1 billion for education, an awful lot of problems could be solved. It is about a mix of what is available financially and the need for best practice in reform because the two go hand in hand.”
“There will be challenges across the board. Some issues will be more contentious than others. There will be challenges around the breadth of issues, which, by necessity, an independent review has to encompass. We are talking about the education of children from preschool up to and beyond secondary-school age. There is a wide remit to cover. <BR /> <BR />The other issue is that, while the panel will scope out what is needed to support particular aspects, it will also try to ensure that those are financially realisable. I cannot prejudge what will come forward but there may be certain proposals, it might be argued, that will create greater efficiencies and save money. However, some proposals will lead to additional expenditure.”
“In order to make sure that the matter was looked at — I think that it was suggested in the Education Committee — there is now an explicit reference to flexibility in the final terms of reference. The Member makes a valid point.”
“The Member makes a valid point, particularly about premature babies. I am keen to look at what can be done and, from initial exploration, I think that it would require a legislative change. At the moment, the school starting age is set rigidly in legislation. If legislative action can be taken during this term to create a greater level of flexibility, I would be keen to see that happening. We need to scope out precisely how that can be done, but that is a very good example of something that can be changed and should not be put on the long finger until the report comes out. I share the Member's position on that.”