Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“OK. I acknowledge that the Minister says that he said that before. Today, he is saying, "Trust me and my intentions when I did that post, but the Standards Commissioner? No, that is woke nonsense. That is woke nonsense from the SDLP, the Alliance Party and Sinn Féin". The Minister nods to confirm that that is his position, which gets right to the crux of the problem: rather than engage seriously and respectfully in the debate, the DUP consistently seeks to dismiss any criticism, any challenge and any accountability. That is not acceptable, I am afraid. <BR /> <BR />I have held the Minister to the same standard that I and my party, as the official Opposition, have held every other Minister in the Assembly and Executive.”
“It is, of course, reasonable for any Member who is subject to a standards process and the outcome of a report, including Mr Gaston, to respond to it, disagree and challenge it. That is an entirely legitimate part of the process. However, Linda Dillon is right when she says that simply questioning the motivations of the standards commissioner and dismissing them as "woke" is not an appropriate thing to do. <BR /> <BR />In his response, the Minister — I thought it was interesting — at least did something that he did not do last June. I think I quote him correctly when he said:”
“It is reasonable for any Member who is subject —”
“Well, if the purpose is to say that the Irish Government have no role in these institutions, I am afraid that I do not agree with that. Of course we know about the previous standards breach that the Minister was subject to because he refused to engage in the NSMC. <BR /> <BR />I give way briefly to Mrs Dillon because I want to be generous in interventions where I can be.”
“I will in one second. <BR /> <BR />The Minister outlined his own indictment of that standards process, but I presume that he and his colleagues will vote against a motion that is about improving and overhauling how we do standards here. That is ironic. It is ironic that Members, including Mr Gaston, lambast the way we do standards in this place but then say, "No: it would be terrible to support any change." <BR /> <BR />I give way briefly to the Minister and then to Mrs Dillon.”
“I genuinely do not know how any elected representative in Northern Ireland who presumably walks around the streets of this jurisdiction, goes into shops and engages with constituents could find anything other than that public trust in our politics is strikingly and remarkably low. <BR /> <BR />Further to that, the Minister is entitled to make a response. Part of the purpose of today's debate is to get Minister Lyons to give his response on the record to the points put in the standards report. He had the opportunity to do that and did it, even if I disagree with him. He outlined an entire indictment, from his perspective, of the process that he was subject to.”
“I am afraid that today's debate has been something of a festival of whataboutery and deflection from the real issues. It has been a challenge at times, for you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, not just to keep order but to remind people of the terms of the debate. <BR /> <BR />Let me say first of all, in relation to what the Minister said, that the motion is about more than Gordon Lyons, more than the breach found in relation to the events and the Facebook post of June last year. It is about a broader question of accountability in our politics, improving our standards process and overhauling the way we do politics, seeking to find some consensus. That needs to change and improve.”
“Thank you, Mr Gaston, for giving way. I appreciate that. Since you are now a defender of the Good Friday Agreement, which is the most remarkable development that we have seen in some time, I presume that you are also disappointed and will agree that Minister Lyons was in breach of the ministerial code in 2024 when he refused to attend North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meetings.”
“I will not, because I do not have time. I will respond to the Member later in the debate. I will be happy to give way later on. <BR /> <BR />The Member has talked a lot in broadcast outlets across Northern Ireland about the need to improve accountability: I agree with him. That starts now. Let us vote for the motion.”
“If the Ulster Unionist Party is serious about improving accountability, there is no reason at all that it cannot vote for the motion.”
“<BR /> <BR />We ask the Assembly to collectively endorse not just an improvement in the standards processes — we have specific proposals on that, including changing the threshold for a veto when it comes to censure — but a broader programme of reform that makes it harder to collapse the institutions, ensures that we do not have a vacuum in governance in this place and that neither the DUP nor Sinn Féin can take advantage of that and, more broadly, improves the culture. It is about saying to the British and Irish Governments, "We know that we cannot go on like this, and we want to work with you to improve and change it". We think that that is doable and essential. <BR /> <BR />A final word — we hear laughs across the Chamber from Mr Burrows, who has talked a lot in recent weeks about improving accountability.”
“I assume that Mr Gaston, who, just a few moments ago, was lambasting the standards system, agrees with that point. <BR /> <BR />The outgoing standards commissioner outlined a range of ways by which the standards system could be improved, but the motion is part of a broader effort to reform our politics, because one thing is clear to every Member in the Chamber: the public have had enough of the way that we do business. We cannot go on like this, with the Executive collapsing at the drop of a hat; Ministers who feel immune to any kind of accountability; public services that are getting worse, not better; and an approach to government that simply treats the public with contempt when they ask for clear targets and delivery in a Programme for Government. We cannot go on like this.”
“This is the same Minister who yesterday called other people "petty" for refusing to indulge the criminal, authoritarian President Donald Trump. It is no wonder that people from all political backgrounds frequently say to me, "You could not redden their necks". <BR /> <BR />Today we are doing more than simply tabling a vote of no confidence under the Northern Ireland Act, because we know that the DUP would be able to nullify that; we are giving the Assembly an opportunity to register its condemnation of Minister Lyons's breach, vote no confidence in him as a result of that and take positive action. I can almost predict how Minister Lyons will respond, though I will keep my fingers crossed. I want the Assembly to take positive action, because it is clear that our standards system is not fit for purpose and needs to be improved.”
“I assume that he will be outraged by the difference between his treatment under the rules and that of Ministers, because no sanction can be effected for a serving DUP Minister. <BR /> <BR />It is worth saying that, in a healthy political culture, repeated breaches of the ministerial code would engage a sense of honour or shame. Sadly, not only has the Minister not resigned but he has not seen fit to apologise or offer even one word of reflection or learning. I genuinely think that lots of people would have viewed the Minister's reaction and his position differently had he, at least, acknowledged that things could have been done differently or that his words could have been used more appropriately. It is that failure to even acknowledge why others might have had difficulty with his post that has infuriated so many.”
“Broadly speaking, it is fair to say that he has shown contempt towards the findings and has been dismissive of accountability, which is not entirely unlike his attitude in 2024, when he was found to have breached the code in relation to non-attendance at North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meetings. Of course, on that occasion, as with the vote of no confidence in Minister Givan before Christmas, his party colleagues were able to nullify any accountability because the current rules give the DUP and, indeed, Sinn Féin an effective veto over votes of no confidence and censure motions of any kind. That is unlike the situation faced by Mr Gaston, who has been treated somewhat differently.”
“A plain reading of the post suggests that the Minister's priority was not to strongly urge protesters to stay away from Larne Leisure Centre but to distance himself and his party from knowledge of the location of the vulnerable people who had been rehoused. There was not one word of empathy or concern for the well-being of those families, who had reason to fear for their safety and perhaps even their lives. <BR /> <BR />It is no surprise, then, that the standards commissioner found that the Minister had breached two different rules under the ministerial code. We know what Minister Lyon's response has been.”
“<BR /> <BR />In June last year, at a time when migrants and vulnerable groups feared for their lives, Minister Lyons posted a notorious Facebook message in which he confirmed — this is important: I acknowledge that he confirmed it, as he will, no doubt, say in response, as he has before, that it had been revealed elsewhere — that migrants had been moved to Larne Leisure Centre, which, at that point, was a site of growing protest. I repeat: that was at a time when migrant communities just up the road in Ballymena had been experiencing something approaching a pogrom. The standards commissioner felt that Minister Lyons, who was not only the MLA for East Antrim but the serving housing Minister, had likely:”
“It comes after the contemptuous response of his party colleague Paul Givan to a vote of no confidence that was brought to the Chamber under the relevant section of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 following his indefensible use of official departmental resources in his visit to the occupied territories. <BR /> <BR />It is no exaggeration to say that those matters have been among a handful of top issues on which my constituents have corresponded with me in my time in politics. Those two separate breaches and the public outrage not just at the initial actions but at the failure of those Ministers even to express any self-awareness, let alone contrition, have, as I said, been among the most intense and overwhelming things that my constituents have communicated with me about — outraged.”
“We in Northern Ireland often act as if our specific history and specific institutions mean that we are insulated from broader changes in democratic attitudes, as if our divided society and communal voting patterns rendered objective accountability and standards processes trivial and secondary. That has certainly been the DUP's response in recent years. Elections are, of course, the ultimate form of accountability, but we are also — at least ,we should be — accountable between elections. That is particularly the case for Ministers, who have legal powers to spend public money and instruct public servants. That is why the contentious attitude of Minister Gordon Lyons to two separate findings of standards breaches — breaches of the ministerial code — is so disappointing and extraordinary.”
“Some, perhaps much, of that derives from misinformation and outright disinformation stirred up online on social media by malign and ill-intentioned actors at home and abroad with the connivance of social media platforms that have no interest in defending healthy democracy and democratic structures. Some of the crisis is legitimately borne of deep and widespread frustration with growing inequality, with wages simply not delivering a decent life for so many in our society and with a political system that has not or will not respond to that frustration. <BR /> <BR />There is also a real sense that too many politicians give the impression that they believe themselves to be above accountability.”
“I see that the Minister for Communities is already laughing, which is an indication of how seriously he — a man found twice in breach of the ministerial code — takes the matter that is before the Assembly today. <BR /> <BR />As part of the opposition role, we have consistently put Ministers on notice that we will hold them to account, but we will also try to effect a broader improvement in our political culture and in trust in politics in Northern Ireland. Revelations in recent weeks, far beyond Northern Ireland, have illustrated that there is broad crisis in trust in politics here and around the democratic world. Nearly everywhere, trust in politics and politicians is at a dangerous low.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />We are just over two years on from the restoration of the institutions, and it is fair to say that the public have not been overwhelmed by the performance of our restored Executive. It is also true that part of that lack of trust comes from a sense that people who take office here, particularly those in ministerial office, feel that they are immune to or insulated from accountability. However, in those two years, there has been a step change: an improvement in accountability through the establishment of an official Opposition. We have consistently used our time constructively but robustly to put Ministers on notice that accountability starts here.”
“Genuinely, guys, the fact that, at this stage, a decade on —”
“I think that a UK-EU customs union is a logical and desirable outcome. Whether the unstable politics of the UK will allow that is another question. <BR /> <BR />Some of the progress made in the meetings that happened last week involving Commissioners Valdis Dombrovskis and Maroš Šefcovic, who has been engaged in Northern Ireland, is positive. We encourage that. We also believe strongly in the case for dual market access. We have talked a lot about dual market access and the benefits of it, but I will make one final point as we debate the subject, although we will, no doubt, debate it again, and I will debate it again: the 10-year anniversary of the disaster that was Brexit. I cannot believe that not a single unionist politician can stand up and say that a UK-EU customs union is in our interests.”
“I will turn to the text of the motion. Our party believes in a new Ireland back inside the European Union. We are strongly and passionately pro-European. We are the most pro-European party in the Chamber, and we make no apology for that. We think that Northern Ireland should be back in Europe, and we think that the only plausible route to that end is a new Ireland. However, because we care about relationships across these islands — we also care about prosperity and living standards elsewhere — we think that, yes, the UK should move to a closer relationship with the EU. I think that it should rejoin. On the basis of my experience — I have some claim to know a little about it — it is vanishingly unlikely that that will happen, possibly in our lifetime but certainly for the foreseeable future.”
“The Member is talking about services — demand services. Of course, it is also true that trade in goods and services is interlinked. He will accept that Northern Ireland has outperformed the rest of the UK while we have had dual market access and the protocol, because that is indisputable.”
“I do not have time, butfor the purpose of the debate, I will give way. I am feeling generous.”
“I am not sure that there is much debate that the headline economic figures — the GDP — for Northern Ireland are outperforming or have consistently or generally outperformed the UK over recent years. That point illustrates that, even if the data is disputed a bit, it is true that the argument often made by politicians on the opposite side of the Chamber that the post-Brexit arrangements — the protocol, renamed the Windsor framework — have been the most awful, baleful set of manacles tying the Northern economy down is completely disproven.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is important to say that we also have proven economic out-turn data on the relative performance of Northern Ireland versus the rest of the UK. This has happened over a few years. For one of the first sustained periods since, bluntly, the creation of this jurisdiction and partition, Northern Ireland has consistently outperformed other parts of Britain. We are in a remarkable situation. It is in part —”
“Economists and the out-turn growth figures for the whole of the UK have proven the negative consequences of Brexit. <BR /> <BR />The Centre for European Reform had a monthly Brexit tracker that isolated what it called "lower trade intensity" — less trade in goods and services between the UK and the EU. It is the reason why there are tens of billions of pounds of lost economic output and, therefore, tens of billions of pounds of lost tax revenue to the UK economy every year. Eóin Tennyson is correct to highlight that. That, on top of the austerity and public spending restraint of the years before that, is part of the reason why there is less money to spend on public services in Northern Ireland and, indeed, other parts of the UK. We can make rhetorical points, but that is now proven fact. We are years on from those disruptions.”
“Had Brexit not happened, I would not be here. <BR /> <BR />We support the motion. It is correct when it talks about the connectivity of the Northern Ireland economy North/South and east-west. It has been long proven not by politicians or pundits but by now backward-looking economic data from a range of sources that the disruption to trade flows was a result of the UK's choice to leave the EU and to do so in a particular manner that severed trade ties in the sharpest and most divergent way possible. That was a political choice by the then UK Government, egged on by the right-wing press in England — a choice, it has to be said, that was endorsed at the ballot box by voters who elected Boris Johnson's Government; insanely, in my view— that has led to the UK being a significantly poorer country. That is proven; it is not up for debate.”
“What a decade it has been of talking about Brexit. Among Brexit's baleful consequences, it brought me into politics. I am sure that many in the Chamber and outwith will say that, yes, that is probably somewhere on the list of negative consequences of Brexit.”
“I appreciate the Member giving way, and I am flattered that he used my title. I appreciate everything that he has said and his previously stated party position. I am not moving the motion, but we will support it. However, I am not clear whether he and his party support an EU-UK customs union, which is the main thrust of the Alliance motion.”
“Minister, road safety is critically important in my constituency, particularly in Rosetta and Knockbreda, where there are multiple primary schools: Rosetta Primary School, St Michael's Primary School, St Bernard's Primary School and a load of others. Along the Knockbreda Road, there is a lot of fast-moving traffic. Your Department has conducted multiple consultations on getting a crossing there, which would also help us to open a back entrance to Cherryvale. Can you provide an update on where progress on that crossing is and on when it will finally get built for the people of Rosetta?”
“In celebrating the amazing success of Aquinas Diocesan Grammar School and Our Lady and St Patrick's College, I want to see future schools from across Belfast lift their GAA trophies in a newly rebuilt Casement Park. I hope that that happens sooner rather than later.”
“I am hugely proud of Aquinas Diocesan Grammar School and the girls from Our Lady and St Patrick's College. It is a testament to the growth of Gaelic games in the south and east of the city but also to those two great schools and their ability to deliver hugely positive outcomes for those sports teams and create memories for the entire school communities. I remember when my school — going back a long way to my school days, more than 20 years ago — won the MacLarnon Cup. The final was at Casement Park, more than a decade before it became disused. It would be great if Belfast schools and those from further afield in the province could have schools' cup final matches, such as the MacRory Cup and MacLarnon Cup finals, at Casement Park and enjoy the atmosphere of a newly rebuilt stadium.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is also a testament to the growth of Gaelic games in south and east Belfast. South-east Belfast has two of the fastest-growing clubs, Bredagh GAC and Carryduff GAC, and we have St Brigids GAC, which is another fast-growing and successful club. Players from all those clubs were represented in both victorious teams, as was East Belfast GAA, which has set itself up in the last five or six years and been an extraordinary cross-community success. It has brought people from all backgrounds and all parts of the world into the GAA in east Belfast, and it has built something new in that part of the city with resilience and optimism.”
“I often stand up to hold the Executive to account and be quite strong and angry about their poor performance, but today I celebrate amazing performance by two schools, one of which is in my constituency. The other is outside my constituency, in east Belfast, close to here, but it has many of my constituents' children attending it. <BR /> <BR />There were two amazing victories: one by Aquinas Diocesan Grammar School in the MacLarnon Cup last Thursday night at the Dub and the other by Our Lady and St Patrick's College girls, who beat St Mary's Magherafelt in the Ulster Ladies post-primary schools (PPS) final. Those were an extraordinary couple of performances by two great schools and are a testament to huge effort by the coaching staff, the players and the whole school communities, who got behind them to support them.”
“All that the people of Greyabbey, Kircubbin and Portaferry are asking for is that there be considered and planned investment in that road, which they rely on. As Mike Nesbitt said, if engineers were looking at the road now, it would probably not be built in that location. However, that is where it is, so it needs to be properly planned for and defended and its resilience invested in. I look forward to hearing from the Minister.”
“However, if there is to be one, it would be helpful for the Minister to tell us whether any consideration has gone into making a bid to the multi-year Budget, which I hope is passed, even if it needs change. I might not be hugely supportive of lots that is in it, but we need a multi-year Budget of some kind. It would be helpful to understand what the investment proposals are with regard to the A20. <BR /> <BR />More generally, we need to support rural communities, which are not going to experience huge new dualled roads or get high-speed rail. There is not going to be a new dual carriageway going down the Ards peninsula. I do not think that there should be one. The Ards peninsula is not going to be included in the all-island strategic rail review. No one is expecting that.”
“However, if, for example, as Michelle McIlveen said earlier, a more focused set of work on coastal communities that are impacted on by storm-related disruption could be put in place or restored, that would be welcome. <BR /> <BR />Mike Nesbitt talked about a five-year plan. Clearly, specific interventions are needed. For example, you have only to drive through Kircubbin to see the fragility of the sea wall there and how vulnerable it is. You do not need to be an expert on coastal erosion, storms or retaining walls, or to be an engineer, to see quite how fragile things are when you drive through Kircubbin. People there and, obviously, further down the peninsula in Portaferry need to know whether there is an investment plan. I do not know what that plan is or what the right interventions would be at different parts of the A20.”
“I am sure that that brings in the Minister's Department. It is becoming an issue that we all, as public representatives, have to be more aware of and prepared for because, whether it is sharing the infographics on social media or getting a quick response from NIE Networks, Translink, DFI Roads and all the other relevant statutory agencies, it is going to be a more fundamental part of our lives. For those of us who live in areas where everyday infrastructure is almost certain to be disrupted, there needs to be better planning, so it would be helpful to hear from the Minister what structures will be put in place to improve the regularity and consistency of the response. I am sure that the response is very serious and that her Department works very hard at that.”
“As is often the case, the storm disruption that disrupts the A20 might often disrupt the ferry crossing from Portaferry to Strangford, which puts even more emphasis on planning, preparing and building in resilience for the residents of areas along the A20 from Portaferry up to Kircubbin, Greyabbey and all the way to Newtownards. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that climate change is happening. You just need to go to an area that experiences coastal erosion and is also low-lying and exposed. Storm damage, when it comes, is very likely to disrupt everyday life. People who live along the A20 are in that category. In recent months, storm Bram and storm Chandra have disrupted everyday life for residents in that part of the world. <BR /> <BR />I think that, earlier today, there was a session for elected representatives on weather warnings.”
“I am obviously not a representative for the very scenic and wonderful constituency of Strangford, but I know it pretty well. I grew up just across the lough on the Lecale peninsula, and I know the A20 road pretty well. I have engaged with my colleague Councillor Joe Boyle, who works, as other representatives do, on the issues that are caused by disruption on the A20. <BR /> <BR />All the way down the Ards peninsula, at the southern tip, there is reliance, as Mike Nesbitt said, on the A20 to get to school, work, daily activities and other vital appointments, whether they are at the Ulster Hospital or in Belfast city centre or Newtownards. The road is critical.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way in the spirit of debate, given that it is the Executive's two-year anniversary. <BR /> <BR />There is a bit of a debate about the accountability of Civil Service leadership and, in particular, the head of the Civil Service. Minister, I appreciate you engaging in the debate today. The Minister of Finance has responsibility for overall Civil Service reform, and there is lots to do. However, for the head of the Civil Service, the line management structure and whom she reports to is not clear at all; in fact, there has been lots of reporting and concern about that. Is she the main person who answers to you on Civil Service reform? Do you have regular meetings and catch-ups with her? How does that work? It would be helpful for you to clarify that.”
“I say that to civil servants who worked hard and brought us through the pandemic. <BR /> <BR />Multiple things need to change in the Civil Service. The Northern Ireland Civil Service leadership has profound questions to answer. I do not have long enough to go through them all, but I am sure that we will have longer to go through them all in our inquiry later this year. For now, my party supports the motion.”
“They were unable to have one-year budgets, let alone the multi-year budgets that the Finance Minister is bringing forward. <BR /> <BR />We need better from the Civil Service, but, as political leaders, we also need to show leadership. We cannot collapse the political institutions every five minutes. We have to get real about the leadership that we offer. There is a challenge of accountability and seriousness about public service here. Let us start, as public servants and political leaders, to offer that leadership to civil servants and incentivise them to get on board with the kind of transformation, reform and improvement that we need in our public services and society. It is not enough for us to wag our fingers and say that they need to do better without, first, doing better ourselves.”
“It may also be that there are unfair pressures on civil servants in particular Departments. <BR /> <BR />It is also the case that, as Eóin Tennyson mentioned earlier, politicians have a tendency — I am someone who believes very strongly in Civil Service reform — to focus on the machinery or tools of government and, perhaps, not reflect enough on themselves. The two main parties in the Assembly both decided to collapse these institutions. They made those decisions for political reasons; one in 2017 and the other in 2022. That meant that the 23,000 civil servants who operate the region had no political leadership in many cases. The accounting officers and people who ran the Departments were unable to set recruitment plans.”
“Later this year, when the PAC has processed or dealt with the NIAO report and gone through its formal processes, we will look at that in a more detailed and thematic study and review in the Finance Committee. <BR /> <BR />I will pick a few specific themes. We know that there is an age profile challenge in the Civil Service. That is not to say that we do not want people who are over the age of 55 or 60. In many cases, we do: we want lots of them. The problem is that they tend to retire sooner than their counterparts in their 20s, 30s and 40s, so we need to lower the age profile. We also need to radically understand what is happening with sickness absence in the Civil Service. Frankly, it is far too high. It may be that that is related to the age profile. There may be cultural questions.”
“However, when it comes to the leadership level, it is true to say that you would be hard-pressed to find a person who is engaged in the public policy debate who would say that the leadership of the Civil Service has confronted the kind of cultural change and improvement that was expected after the renewable heat incentive (RHI) scandal and other scandals in the past decade, because it has not, I am afraid. That culture has been allowed to fester, as it were, for far too long. <BR /> <BR />That is not to say that positive work is not happening. There is a people strategy, and there are outcomes. However, as the NIAO report makes clear, progress is not quick enough. I have a couple of specific points to make. In the Finance Committee, we have been looking at specific issues.”