Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“<BR /> <BR />People in the area look to the east and west and see things happening in Dundonald and in Lisburn. As a political party, the SDLP has no issue in calling out these things: we do not have as much representation in Dundonald or Lisburn. People wonder, "What the hell is happening here?". I hate to be pointed about it, but our party did not vote for a £50 million, £60 million or £70 million Ice Bowl in Dundonald, which is great but is a vast drain on ratepayer resource in that area. When people in Carryduff ask me why they are not getting more investment in the public realm, I am willing to tell them. Mr Brooks is obviously unhappy with me saying it: that is fine.”
“<BR /> <BR />The investment in the public realm is just not there. If you drive through, there is an unkempt whin bush in the middle of Carryduff roundabout. What does that say to people who are travelling through that community? People take great pride in the community, but they are simply let down by the statutory authorities. <BR /> <BR />Carryduff greenway has been mentioned. I welcome the fact that the working group has been set up again, but that has been going on for longer than 'The Mousetrap'. We need to have clarity from the council, in conjunction with the Department — a lot of this is on the council — as to when we will see action in delivering the greenway. There are issues around land ownership, but let us finally cut through them and deliver something for the people in that area.”
“However, if we are to have more Metro services, I would like to hear when the expanded services will be delivered. People want to go into the centre of Belfast and to move about without feeling that they have to drive to get from one bit of Carryduff, Newtownbreda or Four Winds to another. <BR /> <BR />Lough Moss has been mentioned. It is not directly the responsibility of the Minister. It is a great facility, but it is now pretty careworn and old. If you are a family living in Carryduff and you want to take your kids swimming but you rely on public transport, you have to take two or three buses to get to Olympia or Lisnasharragh or to get the bus to Downpatrick to go to the leisure centre there. That is unacceptable. Why are people left with that quality of service in Carryduff?”
“Carryduff, Newtownbreda and Four Winds are communities. They deserve to have a proper public realm and public transport all the way up the Saintfield Road and out to Carryduff, as part of the broader city. They do not have that at the minute. Will the Minister update us as to where things are? <BR /> <BR />We have no clarity yet on the Glider. We do not know when it will go all the way up the Saintfield Road. I know that that is the intention, but the last that we heard was a let-down: it had been discontinued, and the Glider is going only so far as just beyond the Ormeau Bridge. We do not know when it will extend any further. Apparently, the Glider has been ruled out for the foreseeable future for Carryduff, which is a shame.”
“People move there and spend money — sometimes a pretty penny — on a house, and, when they get there, they feel that investment has not been made in that community when it comes to public transport, the public realm and other things. Indeed, there is lack of broader spending in that area, and Lough Moss leisure centre has been mentioned. <BR /> <BR />I want to mention a few things that have already been mentioned that need to be resolved. I grew up in Downpatrick, and I now represent South Belfast, so a large part of my life, like the life of lots of people who live in that part of County Down, is spent driving through Carryduff and down the Saintfield Road. That is a problem, not because people are travelling to South Belfast — I want them to — but because it is treated like a motorway.”
“I will be quite pointed in my remarks about this today, because people in Castlereagh South contribute the biggest volume of rates revenue to Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council, but, as the SDLP discovered through an FOI request to the council, they consistently get the lowest level of spending in that council area. That is unacceptable, because people move there to invest their future in that community and to invest their children's future in the brilliant schools there, such as Cairnshill Primary School, St Ita's Primary School, Carryduff Primary School and St Joseph's Primary School. Those are all brilliant amenities.”
“I hope that, next time, they will become the first Down county champions from the greater Belfast area. I think that they will get there — in fact, for the purposes of balance in the constituency, I should say either they or Bredagh will get there. <BR /> <BR />Carryduff is an amazing and growing community, as are Newtownbreda and Four Winds. The truth is that people are coming from all over Northern Ireland and further afield to make their home in BT8/Castlereagh South, which is a shared community with brilliant sports clubs and community facilities. To be candid, they have been failed for too long. I do not say that to be churlish; I say it to be honest. They have been failed at Executive level but particularly at council level.”
“I am really pleased to be debating this issue today, and I thank the Member who brought the Adjournment debate to the House. <BR /> <BR />I am so proud to represent Carryduff, Newtownbreda and Four Winds — the BT8/Castlereagh South area. In many ways, calling it Castlereagh South is a bit of a let-down for the people who live there, because that is a council district electoral area (DEA). People who live there live in brilliant, shared communities, and one of them — Carryduff — is, in many ways, one of the original shared communities here in the North. There is a brilliant cross-community ethos and a brilliant set of community institutions, one of which, as Deirdre said, had a big moment on Sunday. Unfortunately, throw-in was delayed, and I could not make it down to the match, but Carryduff were unlucky again against Kilcoo.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. He mentioned swinging the lead and said that the LPS should be better able to decide between who cannot and who will not pay. Further to the point made by Mr Gaston and Mr Tennyson about how easy it is to draw the distinction, will the Member give his view about the DUP office in Ballymena? There has been repeated action by LPS. Does he think that the party responsible for the property, whoever they are, cannot pay or will not pay?”
“I appreciate the Minister giving way. On this occasion, I agree with him. In my family, I have experience of what happens when a small business owner cannot continue because of a serious illness and has rates liability. Does the Minister agree that it is often the case in small towns that, sometimes, a liability remains a liability because the ratepayer, perhaps for reasons of stigma or a feeling of obligation to other creditors to whom they owe money in their local town or wherever it is, feel that they do not want to seek write-off? That liability stays there. Therefore, it is important not to stigmatise and simplify those issues, particularly when it comes to small business owners.”
“I do not want that in the long term, and I know that the Finance Minister does not want that either, but, in the short and medium term, why do we not take more power here? Why do we not raise more local revenue? Why do we not have a bit more ambition about taking power into our hands? That is a noble aspiration and a practical imperative. Let us hear from the Finance Minister what he intends to do to raise more revenue locally in the short and medium term, and in the meantime, by all means, let us collect the unpaid rates.”
“I understand that, Mr Deputy Speaker, but, as Mr Tennyson also made clear, these things are inherently linked. How we raise revenue and the amount of revenue that we have available to spend are inherently linked to the amount of unspent rates. The point that I am making is this: if we want to deliver against a set of priorities, rescue our public services and invest in our infrastructure, we are going to need a plan. We will hopefully have a multi-year Budget and investment strategy at some point this year. <BR /> <BR />We assume, because we hear it constantly in the Chamber — it is right — that London does not give us enough money and that our financing model is broken because we have to go to London for reserve claims and to get our funding.”
“<BR /> <BR />Furthermore, I also ask when we are actually going to get a coherent plan for revenue raising and fiscal devolution in order to meet the challenges in our public services —”
“It is preposterous that we are talking about waiting a decade before taking any meaningful steps. I know that the Minister has taken some steps towards changing the rating system. I would like to hear when that is going to be discussed at the Executive. We understood there would be a discussion, last week or this week, specifically on measures to change non-domestic rating and, on domestic rates, early repayment and the cap. Can he give us an update today on whether that discussion is happening and when we are going to get a clear decision? Will that happen in time for the multi-year Budget later this year and therefore for the collection of next year's rates bills?”
“That is not because we love the idea of taxation for its own sake; it is because we believe in taking responsibility here. In the Chamber, there is a huge amount of blame-shifting and responsibility-shifting. Members say, "Someone in London has to do something" or, "Another party in the Executive needs to do something". Someone somewhere else is always to blame for something. The public want us to take responsibility. I want us to take the ultimate responsibility and build a new Ireland on this island, but, until then, I want the Sinn Féin Finance Minister to explain how he and the Executive will take more power over revenue. <BR /> <BR />At the moment, we have something called a rates "review cycle" over a 10-year horizon. That is completely preposterous.”
“<BR /> <BR />The motion effectively says that we should stretch ourselves a little bit more to collect a little bit more of the revenue that we are owed. That is grand; I have no issue with that. In fact, there are loads of instances of rates reliefs being applied totally inappropriately, including in my constituency. I have mentioned in the Chamber multiple times the preposterous situation in the preposterously named Tribeca site in the middle of the Cathedral Quarter. Properties there have been left to fall into dereliction, but the property owners been given rates holidays by LPS. That was undone only after questions were asked by me and others. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to the powers that we have, we have pressed consistently for more ambition from the Minister on getting more fiscal devolution and local revenue-raising.”
“It has come down significantly from, I think, £180-odd million to about £110 million since we first returned last year and discussed the issue. <BR /> <BR />I have no particular issue in supporting the motion. However, my party and I will make the broader point that the debate is happening in the context of us not taking the power that is at our fingertips. As a progressive centre-left politician and someone who believes in devolution and, ultimately, in the exercise of power on this island rather than from Whitehall in London, I believe that we should take more power over the revenue that we raise and use every opportunity that we have to exploit and maximise the powers at our fingertips in the here and now. To be honest, we simply are not doing that at all.”
“Like others, I am sure, we will support the motion insofar as it goes. We have no profound issues with clamping down on the level of unpaid rates. That should be obvious. <BR /> <BR />Some Members in their contributions have lambasted, as it were, the LPS and the Department. I will not defend them, but I offer a plea in mitigation: not all — in fact, very few — authorities that collect taxes, rates and revenue target or achieve 100% in the collection of payments. In broad terms, the tax gap in the UK is about 5%, so I do not think that we should assume that not believing that we will get 100% is necessarily evidence of a profound failing by the Department. That said, there is a significant stock of uncollected rates.”
“On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. The Minister said that the Executive cannot hold a reserve. That is true in a literal sense, but, for the record, the Executive can hold items centrally in their Budget for specific projects. They do that all the time, so it is not correct to say that there was no means of holding that budget. However, I accept that the preference would have been for the Treasury to provide the money.”
“It is clearly right that our first thoughts are with the affected PSNI officers and staff, but let us be absolutely clear: this is another shambles; in fact, we only found out about it because a letter was leaked to the media. Presumably, your Department has known about it for weeks. Is it another example, like the A5, of basic work simply not being done on your watch? Your predecessor got a "no" to the reserve claim a year ago. What happened in the subsequent year to make your Department think that the answer would change? When will we have clarity on how the costs will be met? At the minute, it is a shambles.”
“Minister, I hope that you will listen to the responses to the consultation that you are undertaking — you are already saying that, in your own house, there has been some robust feedback — because the real concern is that pursuing a clear, possibly ideological position will create more high-stakes pressure, particularly for vulnerable kids and, indeed, kids from working-class backgrounds. It is also the case that removing the AS level would make it even harder for Northern pupils to get the requisite points to get into Southern universities. Will you bear both those points in mind when coming to a conclusion?”
“Minister, you were previously Finance Minister. Your colleague the current Finance Minister has been engaged in a long-running consultation on changes to rates. There is no crystallisation on what those will be. Are you advocating specific changes to the rating system to get more properties back on the high street and businesses to engage back on the high street? Are you making that specific case, and when will we see those coming forward?”
“First Minister, I asked you not whether you were working night and day but whether construction would begin before the end of the mandate, so I would like a specific answer to that question. <BR /> <BR />More broadly, is the Environment Minister right to say that the Executive are sliding into backbiting and what he calls, "A battle a day"?”
“I do not doubt — no one doubts it — that there have been lots of photo ops and warm words, but the people who are going to make decisions on investing in this place want to know what the Executive are doing to build road and rail and to invest in our crumbling waste water infrastructure. All the meetings and engagement in the world amount to nothing if those people do not understand that. When will the investment strategy be published? It has been promised since the Assembly came back, but there has been no sign of it. When will we see that document?”
“Unlike others, we are serious about improving the quality of our politics and proving to the public that there is a point in their voting for a Government at an election and that the Opposition will be constructive and robust. I commend our proposal to colleagues.”
“However, if we are to move to the next stage of providing a real alternative for people here and to improve the quality of our debate here in Northern Ireland, we want the same rights that are applied to the Opposition in the South of Ireland: proper, rigorous costings of our proposals. <BR /> <BR />We are doing lots in the Chamber to fall out and prove to the public that they cannot expect anything from Stormont. Let us finally prove to them that we can be mature, we can move on and we can genuinely build something better here. We will put our proposal forward to the Finance Minister, and we hope that he and other parties in the Chamber will agree to it.”
“We would like, ahead of the multi-year Budget later this year, the right to have our proposals costed by departmental civil servants. We would like them to mark our homework, because we are serious when we talk about providing an alternative and improving politics here. Often, the question is thrown back to me in the Chamber, "Where is the Opposition's alternative?". We have produced many alternatives and many papers, so much so that I am thinking of printing them and putting bows on them for Christmas presents for some of my colleagues from all parties in the Chamber.”
“It also means a four-year capital Budget, we hope, that is matched to building social homes for the people who need them in our society and that delivers on critical infrastructure, including all-island rail, the A5 and other critical road, rail and, indeed, waste water projects. That, hopefully, will be set out not just in the three-year Budget but in the investment strategy. <BR /> <BR />That is the context for what we as the official Opposition have done today, which was to write to the Finance Minister. Along with other Opposition parties in Dáil Éireann, such as the Social Democrats and the Labour Party, the Finance Minister's party enjoys the right to access costings from the Finance Department there. Today, as the Opposition in the North, we ask for the same right from the Finance Department here.”
“We entered opposition 21 months ago, and we pledged then to be a constructive Opposition, to work hard and to improve the way that politics is done in this place. Sometimes, it feels, for our Members, like a lonely furrow, but it is an important job, and we are proud to have done it. <BR /> <BR />Before the end of this year, we hope, the Executive will publish their first multi-year Budget in more than a decade. That is a critical moment for the people of this region. They will finally be able to see whether the Executive, with all their fallings-out, chaos and backbiting, are able to set a long-term Budget to deliver on the things that matter to them. That means a three-year Budget that is matched to getting waiting lists down.”
“Minister, we all know where Casement Park is — it is very well connected; it is next to a motorway and a train line — but it appears that that stadium is stuck in the limbo of Executive dysfunction. Months ago, in June, the Treasury committed an extra £50 million to build it using financial transactions capital (FTC). We understand that you met the Finance Minister only a couple of weeks ago. What is the status of Casement Park? When will construction begin? Do you support the project's being delivered?”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. I will make two points, and I will be quick. We made three specific suggestions last year to address the two-child limit. One was to ring-fence the bulk of the regional rate rise for use. From memory, that would have raised about £30 million. The second was to reform rating of empty properties. The final one was to get rid of our ridiculous subsidising of air passenger duty (APD) on flights. You and the Minister may disagree with those suggestions, but they were our ideas. We costed them and put forward proposals. It is therefore not right to say that we did not do so. <BR /> <BR />To clarify, we also want to see more fiscal devolution and more revenue raising by the Executive.”
“On Casement Park, does the Member agree that we are talking about two different types of spending? One is capital spending, and the other is resource spending. There is a difference there; they are two different Budgets, set both by London and Stormont.”
“Build those things. Do not shout at the Opposition for holding you to account for them. You have the power. Yes, it is limited, but it is there. <BR /> <BR />You will have a multi-year Budget later this year. It will give you the opportunity. If the Sinn Féin Finance Minister does not think that we have enough resources — I agree with him — let us hear how he wants either to raise revenue or to look for new fiscal powers from London so that we are not just reliant on the block grant in order to build the future on this island that we want. Do not just blame others. Do not just blame others. Do not just project your anger on to the public or the Opposition. Get out there and build something. Build something. Build something. I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“I say to the Members and to the Executive parties here: we have established that we are in opposition and you are in government. We accept that reality. You should accept the reality that you have the power now to build something and to deliver something: deliver a proper waste water system that grows social homes; deliver new schools, including for special educational needs; deliver all-island strategic rail that can reconnect our island; deliver Casement Park; and deliver the life-saving A5. Build those things.”
“You are talking about a specific project. We do not hold those Ministries now. You have made your point.”
“Very briefly, because I am coming to the end of my remarks.”
“He put that number and his plan for what he wanted to invest and create in SEN provision out there without any clarity on how that would be budgeted for or when it would be delivered. That is exactly the kind of thing that we need to see: a multi-year Budget and an investment strategy. I do not know how we will get there without a plan.”
“<BR /> <BR />Here is the thing: two successive DUP Education Ministers have promised big things on delivering schools. A few years ago, when she was Education Minister, Michelle McIlveen promised lots of schools a new school, including schools in my constituency, such as St Joseph's on the Ravenhill Road, and said that they would be added to the list, with no clarity on how that would be funded or when it would be built. They are still waiting, along with loads of other schools across the North. The current Education Minister came to the Assembly a few weeks ago and talked about a billion-pound investment in special educational needs. We would, of course, love to see that.”
“It was brilliant to hear Timothy Gaston talk with passion about economic development in his constituency. More of that please, Timothy. I agree. I would love to see measures to support North Antrim and all other constituencies in an investment strategy. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the junior Minister Joanne Bunting to ministerial office. She is certainly a person of substance, and I hope that she brings some of that to getting an investment strategy over the line. Given that I have given, as it were, to use a colloquial expression, a bit of a touch to the Sinn Féin Ministers, I should give a bit of a touch to the DUP Ministers, too, because she talked about getting it right and not, effectively, spinning to the public about what could be delivered.”
“If we are going to decarbonise, we need greater connections to Britain and to the Republic. Again, we want to hear more from the Economy Minister and the Infrastructure Minister about such delivery. Something else that we need to see in the investment strategy is information on how we are going to deliver on our climate targets. How are we going to meet electricity demand for the economy that we want to grow in order to create sustainable jobs? Those are all things that should be in the investment strategy, which we have not seen yet.”
“Fundamentally, we tabled our motion in order to get the Executive to publish their plans so that we can hold them to account. The investment strategy will not be comprehensive, and it will not be able to solve all the problems. As Kate Nicholl said, you first need a plan to guide you. A road map is needed, and that is all that we are asking for in our motion. <BR /> <BR />Kate also said that she would have liked net zero to be mentioned more in the motion. That is fair enough, but it is implied in, for example, our illustration of the need for more progress to be made on the all-Ireland strategic rail review. We could have included in the motion something about the need for more development of our energy infrastructure on an all-island basis and, indeed, on an east-west basis.”
“I have certainly read the Programme for Government. I know that I am not supposed to use props, but I will discreetly display the Programme for Government document. In fact, I have both the draft Programme for Government and the final version with me. I did read them, and it did not take me that long to do so, because there is not much in them. I am happy to acknowledge that I did read the documents, however. <BR /> <BR />Robbie Butler talked about assigning blame. He is not in the Chamber at the minute, but that is fine. That we are assigning blame is a nonsense criticism, with the greatest respect to Robbie, who said some very interesting things in his contribution. Assigning blame is literally the job of the official Opposition. It is not about blame but about accountability. That should be clear in any democratic society.”
“I am sure that the football club in the Member's constituency that is taking his ministerial colleague to court — Crusaders — would also like to hear more about it. I am happy to give way if he wants to intervene.”
“He did not like the flagship projects that we selected for inclusion. As I said to him in an intervention, insert your own flagship projects. We have inserted ones, but we could have inserted others, such as the York Street interchange. I would like to know whether that is still is an Executive flagship project. He criticised Nichola Mallon's actions. There is a context to those actions. Let us hear whether the York Street interchange will be in the investment strategy. Let us hear whether it is going to be delivered. It is the same with lots of other priorities, but we do not know about them, and that is because we have not seen the investment strategy. I therefore have no idea about them. Do not criticise the Opposition for asking about them. I would love to hear more about the NI Football Fund.”
“Before Members say that that plan has come from a sovereign Government who are running a massive surplus, I will say it: it has come from a sovereign Government who are running a massive surplus. That is one reason that lots of rational people are thinking about a new Ireland. It is also the case, however, that we have power up here. Yes, it is more limited, and, yes, we have more limited funding, but we do have power. To maximise the limited resource that we have, we need a strategy, and Paula acknowledged that. I am glad to hear that the Alliance Party is going to support our motion, notwithstanding the fact that it would not have worded it in precisely the way in which we have done. <BR /> <BR />Phillip Brett said multiple things about the motion. He at least acknowledged that it includes some things with which he agrees.”
“I will be pressing the Minister for Infrastructure to tell us more about that, because we have called for the EIB to play a wider role in infrastructure in the North. I would like to hear more from the Infrastructure Minister. I would also like to hear more from the Finance Minister about how he sees the EIB playing a role in helping us deliver on our priorities. I want to see ambition, so I make no apology for pressing Sinn Féin Ministers, who, like me, want to see a new Ireland and who, apparently, want to see more all-Ireland cooperation and delivery. Let us see it. Let us be as ambitious as possible, because it is true that, as Paula Bradshaw said, compared with what we have seen from the national development plan in Dublin, delivery up here has been paltry. It has been derisory.”
“I absolutely agree with you that that reality does have to be considered. The two are not exactly the same, but the Executive do have some power. Otherwise, Sinn Féin Ministers would not have taken the Pledge of Office and would not have their ministerial cars and take their salaries. There is power here, although not as much. You and I want a new Ireland. We want a republic for the whole thirty-two counties on this island. Let me be clear, however, that there are powers that exist in the here and now. Otherwise, why would Sinn Féin take up ministerial office? I am going to talk about some of that now. <BR /> <BR />Nicola Brogan made a really important point earlier, and I want to hear more about it. I was pleased to hear her mention the role of the European Investment Bank in the all-island strategic rail review.”
“I will give way in one second. <BR /> <BR />If it is legitimate for them to be robust in critiquing the Irish Government, it is also my job to critique this Executive, and I make no apology for doing that on behalf of Irish people and, indeed, British people who live here.”
“With the greatest of respect, that is absolute nonsense. We have produced loads of papers. I have heard that repeatedly from you and your colleagues, but, just because you say that we have not suggested alternatives, it does not mean that that is the case. I see lots of videos on social media of extraordinarily effective and robust Opposition politicians, including Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou McDonald. If it is legitimate for them to be robust in critiquing the Irish Government —.”
“I will just make one big point: we are the Opposition in the Chamber. There is an Opposition in Dublin. They are led by Uachtarán Shinn Féin, Mary Lou McDonald. Some people up here, including in Sinn Féin, seem to think that this place is not really entitled to have an Opposition or an accountability mechanism. That is nonsense: if opposition is good enough for Irish people in one part of the island, it is good enough for people in the North. I make no apology for that; none whatsoever. I am happy to give way, yes.”