Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“Not only are they the people who answer the unreasonable and, sometimes, petty questions and queries from us, as elected representatives, but they are the people who, as civil servants, are out ensuring that the roads are safe, bridges are tested for safety, food is safe to eat, the environment is properly regulated — although we need more of that in this part of the world — cars are properly tested, and all those things. They literally make the place run. They do it for relatively modest pay and to serve the public.”
“Let me say very clearly that individual civil servants, for the most part, work really hard; there will be exceptions in any workforce.”
“The SDLP supports the motion, and I am pleased to speak on it. I speak as someone who was a civil servant for many years of my career, not in Northern Ireland but across the water. Let me say at the outset that I have talked about this and, in a sense, campaigned on it a bit since I became a politician in the North, including while serving on the Finance Committee and the previous version of the Finance Committee with you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It has become consistently apparent that one of the fundamental structural challenges to improving public services in Northern Ireland is the difficulty in reforming and improving delivery in the Civil Service. That is not arguable any more — the point is proven. <BR /> <BR />That is not an attack on the Civil Service writ large or individual civil servants.”
“The question that I asked was this: would it not have been better if you had had your second thoughts before the thing was published in the first place, before businesses were forced into uncertainty, before you were forced to perform a U-turn and before your officials were forced to scramble around? The question that I am asking now is this: what is next, Minister? The pause is welcome, but businesses, workers and high streets need to know what comes next. When will you update the House?”
“First, happy anniversary, Minister. I was remiss in not wishing you a happy one-year anniversary. I enjoy holding you to account, and I enjoy the back and forth with you. <BR /> <BR />The motion that he talked about that stands in the Opposition's name is no longer proceeding, a little bit like the LCM on the Public Office (Accountability) Bill that he mentioned earlier. He should therefore update his records in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The SDLP and I, and others in the Chamber, were entirely right to call for you to pause the revaluation. It sounds as though you are now having second thoughts about the pause that you introduced. It was the right thing to do, Minister, because you would have shut down the hospitality sector had the revaluation proceeded.”
“It has been pulled by the UK Government, but we, apparently, are proceeding with an LCM next week.”
“Thank you for that answer, Minister. I am slightly concerned that there is a motion in your name in the provisional Order Paper for next week, asking for legislative consent for the Public Office (Accountability) Bill. That is notwithstanding the fact that there are real concerns that there are carve-outs for MI5 and other state security agencies. That has prompted concern, as you have said, including for the Manchester Arena families. That is very troubling, frankly, given your Department's record in relation to other legislative consent motions (LCMs) and, indeed, the rates fiasco last week. Why have you put forward an LCM when there are still such outstanding concerns about the operability of the Bill, what it means for security agencies and, indeed, whether it is going to proceed at Westminster?”
“Where precisely will the voice of people who are not religious or who choose to raise their children in a non-religious setting be? It is important that, first, you say that you respect their input and, secondly, tell us how you expect their input to be represented.”
“Minister, I do not think that Christianity is under assault in schools in Northern Ireland. I am not sure that any serious or objective scrutiny of our education system would bear that out. Lots of parents who either are not particularly religious or are non-religious entirely feel that it is often quite difficult for them or their children to make the choice not to participate in RE and collective worship. That having been said, I was educated in a Catholic school and taught to think critically. <BR /> <BR />What you have said is that there will be no change to collective worship, other than potentially some legislation on inspection. There will be a new RE curriculum, however, over which, you said earlier, the four main denominations will effectively have a veto. You said that you would not proceed with it if they were to dissent.”
“Deputy First Minister, I appreciate your effort in trying to defend the record of the Executive, but the truth is that your party and Sinn Féin spend most of your time at one another's throats. You are shaking your head, but it is true. Do you want to go out on to the Newtownards Road, the Falls Road, the Shankill Road, the Lisburn Road or any other road in Northern Ireland and ask the public? They do not buy it, deputy First Minister. Two years ago, I asked you and the First Minister whether you would promise not to resign your office before the end of the mandate. That promise has still not been given to me. Will you at least accept that, for the public to take this place seriously again, we need a genuine, serious process of Assembly and Executive reform to improve how this place works, because it cannot go on like this?”
“Deputy First Minister, you mentioned the Scots Irish; I am going to speak some plain Ulster Scots now.”
“Deputy First Minister, I strongly support Civil Service reform, and it is remarkable that you talk about Civil Service reform when you and your party cannot even confirm that you will agree a multi-year Budget. I stand up and criticise the Finance Minister regularly; I did it earlier today. Surely, you and your party have to accept that, if you block a multi-year Budget, it will be the final nail in the coffin for the credibility of the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I raise a point of order about the remarks that the Minister made to my colleague, Justin McNulty. I am the last person to run to the teacher. I ask for no quarter and give no quarter in my role as leader of the Opposition, but that relates strictly to the political and the professional. As public representatives, however, we need to be mindful not to stray into the personal. I endeavour to do that. Mr Speaker, will you reflect on whether the Minister's remarks strayed a little too far into the personal?”
“First, why did you not suggest months ago that the revaluation for the hospitality sector be phased in or introduced with transitional reliefs in order to avoid what is now a chaotic situation, in which the revaluation has had to be parked entirely? Secondly, do you regret at all the dismissive attitude with which you treated Members this time last week when we raised concerns from our constituents and from business owners, and will you apologise for it?”
“Minister, because of the unfilled potholes on our roads — your colleague the Infrastructure Minister will, hopefully, be filling those in — lots of motorists in Northern Ireland are having to swerve. You have had to perform a full-blown U-turn, Minister, despite last week coming to the Chamber and arrogantly dismissing concerns from across the House. <BR /> <BR />Your officials have worked hard and with professionalism and competence, so no blame attaches to them, but you and your advisers are paid to apply a degree of political judgement as to whether the package was ever going to be achievable.”
“I welcome the introduction of the GDL. It is a good and sensible measure. It has taken a long time. You said that work had been going on and that officials had to draft and implement it. Obviously, it should not have taken a decade for it to happen — that is too long — although I welcome it that it has now. I want to ask your opinion. You mentioned the two periods of collapse. I do not want to relitigate the reasons for those: one was caused by Sinn Féin and the other by the DUP. Do you agree that taking that long to implement a life-saving measure underlines the need to fundamentally reform how this place works? We cannot have a situation in which vital, life-saving legislation takes a decade to implement because the Assembly is not even here.”
“If you, as Economy Minister, are not hearing that from investors and other businesses, either you are not listening or you genuinely have an issue with your hearing.”
“Minister, with the greatest respect, there seems to be a slight mismatch between what you are saying about the waste water system and the scale of the concern among businesses and people who want to invest here. You said in response to Ms Armstrong's initial question that you take an interest in the waste water system: Minister, I take an interest in Premier League football. You said that there may be a challenge, but every business group that I speak to tells me — they do not just mention it — that the lack of waste water capacity is a huge, profound concern, be it in new houses, factories, shops or whatever. <BR /> <BR />Minister, please tell me that you are urging your Executive colleagues to invest in our waste water capacity.”
“To engage with the Treasury. However, it is also true to say that the Minister of Finance clearly does not yet have an Executive position on the draft Budget. What is to stop the Minister of Finance saying, "Here are my preferences on fiscal devolution", given that he is already effectively saying, "Here are my preferences for what I am going to do with the draft Budget"? Why is a multi-year Budget without Executive agreement OK but fiscal devolution proposals are not?”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. She mentioned that we needed an Executive position before we proceed.”
“One of the agendas of this century is to overcome some of the barriers on this island that, for a range of historical reasons, we put up in the previous century. Let us embrace that agenda, whether or not Members believe in completing the task —”
“The protocol allowed us the dual market access that has enabled us to outperform consistently, probably for the first time, the rest of the UK. <BR /> <BR />I will come on to the ESRI report. I have only a minute left. The report measures North versus South in GDP performance, productivity, economic performance, demographics, employment growth and living standards, and I am afraid that it is fair to say that the South is doing better than the North on pretty much all those measures. That is not ideology or fantasy; those are facts. I point out to the Members on the same side of the House as me that we would do better if we did not constantly harp on about how awful the South is when we are trying to persuade people of the argument that we are making for a new Ireland. I simply say this to colleagues: we have an enormous opportunity.”
“Let us talk about how we build power and responsibility, first in the North through greater fiscal devolution and then through a new Ireland. Even if you do not support a new Ireland, it is clear that a huge amount can be achieved through developing and expanding the all-island economy. <BR /> <BR />I will be clear about what the ESRI report states. I do not dispute that there are wonderful points in it about the Northern Ireland economy. It is not talking down Northern Ireland, Mr Burrows, to point out that we are consistently one of the worst-performing parts of these islands in economic terms. We have actually somewhat outperformed the UK in economic performance. Since when? Since we have had the awful sea border.”
“I am just checking that my generosity will be rewarded in this life, not in the next. Yes, the Member is right: the public elect people to take up ministerial office, and they should have the power to do that. <BR /> <BR />It is remarkable that we have often had a situation in which unionist politician after unionist politician stands up in the Chamber and says, "It is awful what the British Government are doing to us. It is awful what the Tories did because of Brexit". No one agrees with that more than me. They now say, "It is awful what Keir Starmer is doing", and I agree with that most of the time too. There is pretty much agreement that it will also be awful if and when there is a Nigel Farage-led Government. Let us take power on this island.”
“If Ministers from whatever party, be it Sinn Féin, the DUP or Alliance, hold office, they should get on with doing their job. <BR /> <BR />Do I have an extra minute, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker? I took an intervention.”
“If you are telling me that your party has more votes and more seats, I am not disputing that; I am telling you to get on and use your power to —.”
“You have the opportunity to drive the North/South interconnector, the all-island strategic rail review and all-island tourism. Get on and do it. Do not blame us. We will hold you to account, because that is our job. <BR /> <BR />Progress is not happening at the pace at which it needs to happen. We talked about the 'good jobs' Bill earlier, and I talk repeatedly about fiscal devolution, because we have the theoretical agreement of the Finance Minister. Conor Murphy set up the Fiscal Commission six years ago. I welcomed the fact that it was commissioned, but we have not seen a single calorie of energy put into implementing its report. I want to see that. <BR /> <BR />Some of the Members opposite have, in different ways, sought to deflect from and diminish the idea of all-island cooperation, which is, I am afraid, nonsense.”
“In fact, it was tabled by a party that has all the economic levers at its disposal in the North, so the matters in the motion are not theoretical. We do not need private Members' motions on the North driving forward the all-island economy via energy, greater fiscal devolution and good jobs; we need Ministers to do that. <BR /> <BR />Earlier on, my South Belfast colleague said that Sinn Féin is living in our cerebral cortex. I sometimes get accused of using $10 words, but that was very nice. I think that the phrase that is sometimes used is "living rent-free". No: we are just doing our job as the Opposition. Sinn Féin has power. You have more seats than us and all the main strategic drivers. You have the First Minister, Finance Minister, Economy Minister and Infrastructure Minister.”
“I make no apology for the fact that I am genuinely of the view that ending partition, building a new Ireland and Northern Ireland's rejoining the EU via the only plausible means, which is a new Ireland, will be good for our economy. It is wrong to pretend that that is some kind of strange ideology. That view is evidence-based, and increasing numbers of people, not just those from traditionally nationalist backgrounds, are embracing it, which is, perhaps, why Members opposite are somewhat nervous, shall we say, about this debate. <BR /> <BR />I turn to the context of the motion. We support virtually everything in it, but I add this caveat, and I do not do so to be churlish: you would think that the motion was tabled by a Back-Bench party or, indeed, an Opposition party.”
“Not for the first time, I shudder as I listen to the quality of the debate in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />I want to touch on a few points. We support the motion. It talks about an extremely important thing. The Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) was commissioned by the Shared Island unit to develop a programme of work that modelled the difference between the two economies — they are two economies, but there is also an all-island and all-Ireland economy that I will come on to talk about in more detail — how they interact, the differences in performance and the advantages of greater integration and dynamism on the island. <BR /> <BR />We talk often about ideology: ideology is not the same as having a considered view.”
“We have already seen one display of ministerial arrogance in the Chamber. Now, it seems, we are seeing another. Minister, you have previous in blaming other people for things that are happening in your Department. Now, it seems that it is publicans and hospitality owners who did not do the work. Let us be clear: pubs across the North are going to shut as a result of this. They face real cost pressures already, as a result of a whole range of things, and you simply tell them, "It is not my problem. Go away. You should have submitted your homework earlier". Minister, are you genuinely standing by this revaluation as it stands? We are all hearing from pubs and hospitality businesses in our constituencies that this is going to shut them down. That will have real impacts on communities, loneliness and employment in local areas.”
“I welcome the fact that you have belatedly and eventually offered some words of solace and empathy for those who were caught up in the appalling racial violence in Larne and Ballymena, but is there anything — anything at all — that would ever lead you and your party to demonstrate any accountability or humility?”
“Minister, to be clear, you said in your answer that the PSNI asked you to communicate the information, but it did not. It asked your colleague, a DUP councillor. You said that the standards commissioner has introduced a "new standard" for empathy and non-criticism of public bodies; she does not. She is clear in her articulation of how you breached the Nolan principles and the ministerial code. In addition, it is not your first rodeo, Minister, as you breached the ministerial code by blocking the operation of the North/South Ministerial Council. <BR /> <BR />Minister, many people feel that you have repeatedly proven yourself to be unfit for office, and you have been found repeatedly in breach of the ministerial code.”
“Minister, you and your party colleagues have not been behind the door in criticising the multi-year Budget from the Finance Minister. That is fine: neither has my party, but we are the official Opposition. <BR /> <BR />Shamefully, real spending on arts in this jurisdiction is by far the lowest in these islands. It has fallen by nearly half in real terms over the past decade and a half. Meanwhile, in England, in the past week or two, we have seen a £1·5 billion commitment to the arts at a UK level. Minister, you and your party are keen to talk about alignment with the rest of the UK: have you made a specific request that at least some of the Barnett consequential connected to that be devoted to arts here?”
“Tree planting will be a huge and important part of the Lough Neagh mitigation measures in order to rescue Lough Neagh. The draft multi-year Budget commits, I think, £5 million a year for the period. We do not know whether that amount will be agreed, as we do not know the status of the multi-year Budget. Even if it is agreed, £5 million seems like a small amount. Minister, for how much did you bid for the Lough Neagh recovery plan over the period of the multi-year Budget? Is £5 million a year enough?”
“We cannot allow small rural pubs and critical hospitality venues to go to the wall because of the revaluation. We will stand up and fight against it in order to protect those critical community assets and tourism resources. There will be more to say about that in the Chamber in the weeks ahead.”
“<BR /> <BR />The SDLP Opposition will not stand by and allow our pubs to be punished like that, with all the consequences for their workers — they could lose their jobs — communities and our tourism offer. It is not good enough to blame the Brits, as some have already done, and to say, "Austerity did this". The revaluation is not raising any money. If it were raising money for public services, that would be another matter. The Sinn Féin MP for North Belfast responded to a pub on the Antrim Road that is facing crippling additional costs by saying, "It is a consequence of austerity". The revaluation is not raising any money to deal with austerity; it is just rebalancing our rates system while punishing pubs. We cannot stand by and let that happen.”
“However, that revenue-neutral exercise has clearly been designed to create a huge additional burden on our pubs and hospitality sector at a time when it faces rising costs related to labour, goods and other things such as Sky TV. That last aspect does not necessarily jump to the front of one's mind, but my understanding is that the Sky Sports bills — Sky Sports subscriptions are often critical to getting people into pubs, including on wintry nights such as we have been having recently, when people go in to watch the Champions League — that pubs pay to get that critical part of their offer, are based on their rateable values, so those bills will go up by thousands of pounds. That is a completely unacceptable situation.”
“That will force them out of business: it will force pubs to close; it will prevent small rural villages and towns from having access to those vital community meeting points; and it will damage our hospitality offer. The Irish pub is fundamental and critical to the hospitality offer not just in the North but on the island of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The revaluation exercise happens every number of years. It is not a revenue-raising exercise, so, before anybody says, "Where else would we raise the revenue?", let us be clear that it is a revenue-neutral exercise. That is clear from the Minister and from the Department's website.”
“I will talk about a subject that is close not just to my heart but to the hearts of many communities and people who value the role that our pub and hospitality sector plays in Northern Ireland. I grew up working in small rural pubs. It is part of the DNA of my family and that of many families across the island. The revaluation that was announced last week by the Department of Finance risks forcing pubs and other hospitality locations over the edge. In an extraordinary development, many of our hospitality venues will face tens of thousands of pounds — in some cases, hundreds of thousands of pounds — in increased rates liability.”
“As the largest party in Government in the North and the largest party on this island that wants to build a new Ireland, Sinn Fein should take this debate seriously. Simply scattering and littering this island with your party posters will not help us build that new society.”
“I will not give way, because I do not have time. <BR /> <BR />We need to regulate properly the use of insignia in a shared space and a shared community. Why? It is because we live in a shared community. I want to build a new Ireland, but I do not think that I will do that simply by having Sinn Féin posters all over nationalist towns in the North, nor do I think that people will be persuaded of the benefits of Northern Ireland's being in the United Kingdom by having moth-eaten flags all over the Ormeau Road, Carryduff, Rosetta and other parts of my constituency. <BR /> <BR />Let us be clear: the Minister has a statutory responsibility for roads, road users, railways and the safety of public highways. She should take that statutory responsibility seriously.”
“There are challenges for us all. We need to move to regulating properly —.”
“I will say the following to the Member. She and I share the constituency of South Belfast — we hear guffaws and whataboutery from all corners of the Chamber — and I agree with her position. She scored a point with me, and that is fair enough. She is entitled to do that. She is a politician, and I am too. You got cheers from Sinn Féin when you said it, but the point is that what Sinn Féin does with its posters undermines our ability, and yours, to regulate the unlawful flying of flags on the Ormeau Road and in Rosetta and Finaghy. The DUP's not standing up against illegal, unlawful displays across unionist, loyalist or mixed communities, such as those in South Belfast, undermines and makes ridiculous its motion about Sinn Féin posters. <BR /> <BR />I am happy for Ms Bradshaw to challenge me on a poster with SDLP insignia.”
“Thank you very much for giving me the extra minute. You have given me the opportunity, Mr Speaker, to draw a differentiation between posters that are permanent erections of political messages and what she is referring to.”
“We seek a vote every number of years to represent people. We do not own those communities nor are we given that power. The SDLP still has a significant vote in Newry. We do not seek the right to put our emblems all over that or any other town.”
“I, for what it is worth, care deeply about many of the issues that Sinn Féin puts on those posters. I care profoundly about Palestine. I care deeply about, and am in politics to help to achieve, a new and shared united Ireland. Here is the thing: I genuinely do not think that simply erecting Sinn Féin posters with the words "united Ireland" on them all over our towns will persuade people about a united Ireland. It might actually turn the odd, more persuadable, voter off it. What it will do, however, which is perhaps the purpose, is implant subtly in the minds of people, particularly those living in a nationalist area, that that area sort of belongs to Sinn Féin and then constantly remind them that Sinn Féin has part ownership of it or whatever. To be clear: that is not legitimate democratic speech.”
“All the instances that we are talking about, however, are where Sinn Féin has erected, either temporarily or quasi-permanently, political messages with its branding on public land. That is not a trivial matter. It is not the most important issue facing the North or in the Minister's inbox, but it is a real issue. There is a challenge when a Minister, who holds a particular ministry and has a statutory legal responsibility for roads infrastructure and signage, and the safety of road and rail users, is a public representative of a party that is in clear breach of the law, not occasionally but permanently. <BR /> <BR />That is not a trivial matter, no matter what Ms Ennis says. She says that the DUP is not serious. The DUP may not be serious — I have no doubt that the DUP is playing politics here — but my party and I are serious about it.”
“I know the roundabout at the Egyptian Arch, and I know that there are Sinn Féin posters in several other places in Newry: around Greenbank; near the Showgrounds and Páirc Esler; and in the middle of the city. There are Sinn Féin posters in Warrenpoint, my home town of Downpatrick and other towns. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say that there is nothing wrong with political speech. Political speech is a vital part of any democracy, and it can be in public spaces. There are multiple ways for political speech to be in public spaces. We are all entitled to have public events to give our views. We are entitled to buy advertising space. We are entitled to display political emblems and messages of all sorts on private land.”
“There has been a fair bit of knockabout today, some of which has been done in good part, and that is fair enough. There have been accusations of hypocrisy from the DUP towards Sinn Féin and from Sinn Féin towards the DUP. The truth is that there is pretty glaring hypocrisy from both parties. These issues — and the broader issues of symbols, flags, emblems and posters in a shared society in which space and identity are contested — are all part of the same challenge, and both of those parties are unwilling to confront it honestly. <BR /> <BR />The motion is about the unlawful erection of Sinn Féin posters in Newry and other parts of the North. My wife is from that part of the world, my in-laws still live there and I know lots of people there, so I am regularly in that part of the world.”