Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“Schedule 2 makes consequential amendments that place the council within existing administrative audit frameworks, enabling it to operate as a statutory body. Throughout our scrutiny, we have sought to ensure that the Bill strikes the right balance between independence, accountability and flexibility, while remaining mindful of potential effects on other arm's-length bodies. <BR /> <BR />We welcome the Department's engagement, particularly its willingness to provide assurances and amendments to the explanatory and financial memorandum that are particularly important.”
“Clearly, the Fiscal Council, by the nature of its job, has to say things that are occasionally difficult for an Executive and for the UK Government, and, indeed, for other bodies to hear.”
“Funding arrangements also received significant scrutiny, including the fact that the council's costs are included in the Department's estimates and that accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Committee explored what those arrangements mean for independence and transparency, including the value of clear Budget lines and the importance of funding stability over the longer term. That is absolutely critical, because the Fiscal Council cannot be genuinely robust and independent if there is any doubt over its funding. We got clarity from the Department on that, but it will be for future Finance Committees and, indeed, all Members of the Assembly and external observers to ensure that the Fiscal Council is funded transparently and in a way that allows it to do its job.”
“The Committee placed emphasis on the importance of strong Assembly engagement and the visibility of the council's work, and the Department agreed explanatory and financial memorandum amendments, confirming that both the annual report and external review reports will be shared with the Committee for Finance in addition to the Department.”
“It needs to be able to have the independence to say those things to the public and to this Assembly. The Committee also considered the council's right of access to information and noted the council's evidence that access to information has not been an issue to date. It welcomed provisions underpinning transparency, including the requirement to publish data statements, and secured clarification that those statements will also be provided to the Committee for Finance. That is really about baking in that independence. In addition, the Committee welcomed confirmation that memoranda of understanding are already in place with Departments and the Northern Ireland Office and will be reviewed once the provisions are placed on a statutory footing. <BR /> <BR />Schedule 1 also makes provision for an annual report and external reviews.”
“For example, had we made substantive amendments to how the governance arrangements work, they could have had unintended consequences for other arm's-length bodies. <BR /> <BR />However, we investigated in detail the transparency of appointments arrangements, including concerns about perceptions of independence. We sought clear assurances that appointments would be made in line with the Commissioner for Public Appointments code of practice and be subject to a skills audit, as well as securing clarification in the explanatory and financial memorandum that the Committee will be kept abreast of any changes to council membership. It is really important that we get that. It is important that we clarify that the Fiscal Council is not simply reporting to the Executive but, in fact, that it may have difficult things to say about Executive policy.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will turn to schedule 1. Much of the Committee's scrutiny focused on whether the governance framework provides sufficient assurance of the council's independence in practice. In particular, the Committee examined appointments, access to information, reporting, transparency and funding. The Committee recognised that amendments to the governance arrangements for the Fiscal Council could have wider implications. Such changes may set precedents for other arm's-length bodies, creating an unintended ripple effect, which the Committee was keen to avoid. For that reason, the Committee approached its scrutiny with caution, mindful that amendments specifically related to governance could have unforeseen consequences.”
“It welcomed the explicit provision in clause 6 that the council is not subject to direction or control and must act transparently, objectively and impartially, aligning with the OECD principles of independence and non-partisanship. The Committee considered matters relating to reporting, timing and engagement with the Assembly across clauses 2 to 6. It secured a number of assurances and clarifications related to the explanatory and financial memorandum, and I thank the Department for working with us on that. We have had important clarifications to the explanatory and financial memorandum that will strengthen and clarify accountability, when it comes to the Finance Committee — usefully, we had ourselves inserted into the EFM — and to the Assembly more broadly. The Committee is therefore content with clauses 1 to 6.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 5 enables the Department of Finance to confer additional functions on the council. That received particular scrutiny. The Committee sought and received assurances that any such changes would be subject to consultation, including with the Fiscal Council, and would require Assembly approval. The Committee also secured extremely important clarification in the Bill's explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM) that the Committee for Finance will be included in the consultation process. I thank the Department for its willingness to address that question. <BR /> <BR />The Committee also examined issues relating to independence, transparency and accountability.”
“Clause 2 sets out the council's main functions to examine and report on public finances, including statutory duties to publish a Budget assessment report and a fiscal sustainability report alongside any other reports that the council considers appropriate. Clauses 3 and 4 provide the detail on those reports, including the purpose of the Budget assessment report and the distinction between that report and its thematic fiscal sustainability reports. In carrying out its scrutiny, the Committee gave careful consideration as to whether the council should have a formal role in forecasting whether an assessment should take place. The Committee has not tabled amendments, but, clearly, members have taken a view on that, and I will move amendments later in a different role.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill comprises nine clauses and two schedules, which I will briefly run through and highlight the issues raised by the Committee. Clause 1 establishes the NI Fiscal Council as a statutory body. There has been widespread agreement that they think the council on a statutory footing is an appropriate and necessary step. It supports the council's authority, credibility and permanence and aligns Northern Ireland with established international practice. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 2 to 6 set out what the council is there to do. They place clear duties on the council to assess the Executive's Budget and examine the sustainability of public finances. That work is particularly important, given current pressures on public finances.”
“It sought written evidence from key stakeholders, carried out online surveys, commissioned research and took extensive oral evidence from a range of organisations, including economists, academics, the Scottish Fiscal Commission (SFC), the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council (IFAC), the OECD, the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO) and the NI Fiscal Council, as well as the Department. I place on record my sincere thanks to all those who contributed. Their evidence was invaluable to our rigorous scrutiny of the Bill. The Committee specifically considered the issues in accordance with the OECD principles for independent fiscal institutions, which are transparency, integrity, accountability and effective governance. I thank the Department's Bill team, who worked very closely with the Committee.”
“I will give the Committee's view first. To be clear, the Committee has scrutinised the Bill overall, and it has not given a view on the amendments that are in my name or anyone else's name. The Committee has done other scrutiny that I want to outline to the Assembly for its benefit more generally. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is unusual not because of its length or complexity but because of its clear importance. It is not every day that we legislate to put a body into law. The Bill places the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, which has been in operation since 2021, on to a statutory footing following commitments made in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. It is an important piece of legislation, which provides a clear legislative framework for the council's functions. <BR /> <BR />The Committee undertook very detailed scrutiny of the Bill.”
“I am very pleased to speak today, and because I am in the slightly unusual position of being both the Chair of the Committee and the mover of the majority of the amendments, I will speak first as Chair of the Committee, and then I will move on and give a detailed view of the amendments that are before us today, if that is amenable to the Principal Deputy Speaker and Members. It is very important legislation, and I am pleased to have been the Chair of the Committee that scrutinised the Bill.”
“The Springhill/Westrock families are a credit to the community in west Belfast and to our entire society. Against the most remarkable and overwhelming odds, they have stood up for their loved ones. I stand in solidarity with them today. I and my party have nothing but respect and admiration for their courage and for the courage of all families who lost their loved ones to republican and loyalist paramilitaries and to state forces. You deserve so much better than you have received over the past half century and more.”
“Let us be clear. Not only did the Springhill/Westrock families behave with extraordinary courage and resilience, but, if the legacy plans enacted by the previous Tory Government had been brought through, this kind of inquest would have been denied not just to those families but to any family who had lost their loved ones in our conflict and wanted some measure of truth, justice and accountability via the inquest process. That is number one. The next point is that a new or replacement legacy process for people in this society who are victims and survivors of the Troubles must be human rights-compliant. It cannot pander to the worst instincts of those on the English right who simply seek to shield state forces from any kind of accountability.”
“For more than half a century, the killings — the murders — at Springhill/Westrock have been held to a different standard, and people have been denied justice. Margaret Gargan, Patrick Butler, John Dougal, David McCafferty and Father Noel Fitzpatrick were killed that day in a way that Mr Justice Scoffield said was "not reasonable". As he also said, the army "lost control" of the situation.”
“We do not and never have, because those who have a legal monopoly on the use of force need to be held to the highest legal standards.”
“For more than half a century, the Springhill and Westrock families have, with dignity, courage and extraordinary resilience, maintained the innocence of their loved ones and the need to clear their names and to hold the British state to account for their murders on 9 July 1972. As the previous contributor said, that month was one of the most brutal in the history of our conflict. That is why it is even more important that the forces that are given a legal monopoly on the use of force, i.e., the security forces, are held to the highest possible legal standard. Sometimes, there are those in the Chamber who want to vacillate or, at times, talk out of both sides of their mouth in relation to holding the state to account.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Just to clarify, there is an amendment in the name of my party colleagues that will not be moved. Due to unforeseen circumstances, they are not here to formally not move the amendment. However, I want to put on record, for the convenience of the House, that the amendment would not have been moved in any case, following useful conversations with colleagues in the Alliance Party.”
“Minister, you have, once again, utterly misrepresented everything that I said. I want the British Government to give us more money. I want a fair financial settlement for here. A better settlement for this place is more likely to happen when your party and the DUP act like parties in a grown-up, proper Government and stop squabbling. I am not the one who invited in the British Government to do something called an open-book exercise, which you said would strengthen our argument for funding for public services but has instead turned out to be a farce. Minister, I will ask you this again: given that you said in January of this year that the draft Budget, which you have now apparently disowned, was transformative for public services, when will we have a final Budget?”
“Minister, at the Finance Committee in December last year, you told me that you were 10 out of 10 confident that a Budget would be agreed. In January, when you published the draft Budget, you said that it would transform public services. Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?”
“Minister, that was a very short statement. There was some interesting stuff in it, but I am going to ask about something that was not in it. In December 2023, some progress was announced, although it has not been followed through on, on making it easier for pupils from the North — Northern Ireland — to apply for top Central Applications Office (CAO) courses in the South. You yourself have very theatrically complained about that structural issue in the Chamber. What are you doing to make it easier for Northern students to get into Trinity College Dublin (TCD), University College Dublin (UCD), Dublin City University (DCU) and all the rest? Did you raise the issue at that meeting, and if not, why not?”
“Are you comfortable with that, and have you made a calculation of the average additional cost to workers who have to take time off or pay for childcare on those extra days when schools are closed because of your agenda?”
“Minister, a good teacher knows how to deal with messing and attention-seeking. I am afraid that, in the Chamber today, we have seen messing, attention-seeking and squabbling for theatrical purposes from your party and Sinn Féin, which is genuinely pathetic. You are collectively responsible for our education system and for setting a Budget. Today's spectacle is genuinely shameful. <BR /> <BR />I want to ask a question about teachers and teacher development days. Your TransformED agenda, with its upsides and downsides, will require a significant additional number of teacher development days. Teachers deserve those in order to familiarise themselves with your reform proposals and be trained up. However, that creates an additional burden on parents, who have to deal with significant additional school closures.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I will be brief. I want to raise an issue that has come up before. It relates to questions for oral answer to the Executive Office yesterday. Ministers are asked a direct question. They may not answer it, but then, later on, a Member, usually from their own party, will ask them the same or a very similar question, to which they provide a fuller answer. I would like to hear formally from the Speaker's Office whether doing that is in violation of any Standing Order. I am happy to wait for advice.”
“As Paula Bradshaw said, parents, pupils, the school community and teachers have not been able to use the hall at Rosetta for years. I live in the area, and I know how distressing and frustrating that is for the school community. You talked about the business case and the processes that are being worked through with the EA. Mr McGarrigle, the principal, has done a huge amount of work, but there has been frustration that they have had to chase and chivvy the EA. You talk about getting to a place where the final question is finance: can you and the EA give a commitment that, when you get to that stage, the finance will be found to reopen the Rosetta school hall and do the works necessary so that the school community can use the whole building?”
“It may not be a matter for the Executive Office, but it is a matter for this place, so, although I appreciate your indicating a rhetorical commitment to moving forward that agenda, the public out there will be somewhat sceptical. We are 20 years on from the St Andrews Agreement, in which the DUP and Sinn Féin, along with the British Government, undermined core principles of how this place works. We are two years on from the restoration of the institutions, yet there has been no progress made on the A5 or on Casement Park. The Executive cannot even set a Budget. As I said, I welcome the fact that there is now a rhetorical commitment to reform, but will you tell us what reform you want to see happen to make this place work? I say that because it is not working.”
“It is more than two years on from the restoration of the Executive. Your party and the DUP are good at blaming each other and quick to shift blame to London, but you, collectively, have not published an investment strategy: that is shambolic. Where is it?”
“First Minister, you said that there has been "a significant amount of work" and that there has been "progress on the enabling actions": that is simply not good enough. In early 2024, just after the Executive were re-established, in response to a question for written answer from Paula Bradshaw, you and your colleague the deputy First Minister said that the final draft of the investment strategy had been presented. In answer to my colleague Colin McGrath this time last year, you and the deputy First Minister said:”
“<BR /> <BR />The council needs to properly invest there and needs to start with a new leisure centre at Lough Moss, with a swimming pool and proper facilities for people in that area. While we are at it, let us also get proper investment in the public realm in Carryduff and more road safety measures, as well as, ideally, at some point, the Glider.”
“The SDLP have been saying for years that the people of Castlereagh South have been getting a raw deal from that council. I am afraid that others supported the vast investment in the replacement of Dundonald Ice Bowl. On its own terms, there is nothing wrong with that, but it means that there will be a lot less investment in other parts of Lisburn and Castlereagh. BT8 and Castlereagh South, once again, have been left without proper investment. It is an area where people pay really substantial rates. They make their home in that area, which has great community assets. I mentioned Carryduff Colts and Carryduff GAC, and there is Bredagh GAC and the Carryduff regeneration forum. Those are brilliant local community and sports groups, formed by people in the community, but they do not get the backing of the council in that area.”
“Recently, there has been investment in 3G pitches there, which are used by Carryduff Colts, which is a great soccer club, and Carryduff GAC. However, the leisure centre itself needs to be properly upgraded. As you will be well aware, Mr Speaker, it needs a pool. People who live in Carryduff and rely on public transport either have to get multiple buses into the centre of Belfast and out to Lisnasharragh or Olympia, or they have to get on a bus and go all the way to Downpatrick to get to a swimming pool. That is not good enough for people in BT8.”
“<BR /> <BR />A few years ago, the SDLP established that, despite contributing the largest total of rates by district electoral area to Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council, Castlereagh South has historically had the lowest level of investment. The people there have to put up with all the traffic that flows down to Forestside. It is a great shopping amenity, but the traffic and congestion that is created affects air quality for people all the way down the Saintfield Road from Carryduff to Newtownbreda. They would expect and deserve proper investment in amenities in their area, but they simply have not had that. The failure to invest in Lough Moss is another example of that. <BR /> <BR />As was said earlier on, Lough Moss is overcrowded and simply not fit for purpose. I am sure that it was a great facility back in the 1990s.”
“I want to echo some of the remarks that were made earlier by my constituency colleague and friend Kate Nicholl, who has just returned to the Chamber, about an urgent question that has been left waiting for far too long not only for the people of Carryduff but for the people of BT8 and Castlereagh South more broadly, and that is the failure to build a new leisure centre at Lough Moss. I am pleased to say that there was cross-party support for a petition that was launched by my colleague Councillor John Gallen. The petition calls for something that people in BT8 have not had for years, if not decades, and certainly not under the auspices of Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council since it was formed, which is proper investment and focus on that area.”
“Join a political party, hand out a leaflet, stand for election and persuade your friends and neighbours of a hopeful future. Do not try to drag us back into a hopeless, violent past. <BR /> <BR />I want a united, new Ireland. I want to deliver that democratically by inspiring people about that vision. Bombing, explosions and shooting will not work and are not the way to achieve it. They were not the way in the past, are not the way now and will not be the way in the future. Stop. Go away. Your actions are illegitimate and have no support. Leave those of us with mandates who want to build a hopeful future on this island to do it.”
“It was not simply an attempt to create a spectacle — even if it was that, it would have been grotesque and illegitimate — it was an attempt to cause death and destruction. It cannot — cannot — be equivocated about, and the SDLP, as we always have, roundly condemns it. <BR /> <BR />I say to the people involved in dissident republicanism, "Genuinely go away; don't just get off the stage. You are illegitimate; you represent nobody; you have nothing to offer". I say to people who want to deliver a new and united Ireland, as I do — I respect the fact that others in the Chamber do not want that — that I and my party are working to deliver that. If you want that, do not plant bombs and do not try to cause death and destruction.”
“The scenes that we saw in Dunmurry at the weekend will have made people ask this: what decade are we living in in this society? What decade have we woken up in to see scenes of an explosive device set off in a car in front of a police station, putting at risk the lives not just of the police officers who serve in that station but of people in the nearby community, including children and babies? That incident needs not only to be called out and condemned but to be challenged for the illegitimate, idiotic and immoral attack that it was. People in Dunmurry were not just inconvenienced; they were scared on Saturday because — let us be clear — someone attempted to take life outside Dunmurry police station.”
“It can be an inconvenience — indeed, a scourge — for certain parts of this city and other places, so let us work together to take action on the issue. I hope that we will see practical delivery before this mandate breaks up. The Opposition will press for that.”
“That is not the subject of the debate; there is a reference to it in the DUP amendment. As I said, if there are specific targeted uses of the drones, that would need to be tested at the Policing Board. The principle is that, if things can be used to reduce harm, they should be explored. Those are legitimate questions that should be tested by the Policing Board. It is not strictly the subject of the debate, but I recognise the concern that the Member has outlined. <BR /> <BR />The key thing is to protect people while allowing young people proper activity that directs their energy and allows them to feel included in society. We can do both of those things, but we should not trivialise the issue. People on this island have lost their lives.”
“At the beginning of the debate, we said that many young people are engaging in the activity as a hobby or a bit of craic, and the proposals are not to demonise them. I take slight issue with Mr Carroll for saying that it is demonising young people: all Members who spoke about this as a problem were clear that young people who ride scramblers are not being demonised. It is important to say that. It is also important to say that you can engage with young people. That will be a critical part of the effort. There are clearly circumstances in which the activity escalates and the policing response is not only legitimate but probably essential. We should not dismiss that.”
“If there are legislative interventions that could and should have been made to make communities safer and reduce potential loss of life through e-scooter and scrambler misuse but were not, it will be a poor judgement on the Executive and Assembly. <BR /> <BR />The use of drones is an interesting suggestion. Drones are used in a policing context in Northern Ireland. Obviously, you would want to be assured — members of the Policing Board would be able to ask questions — that their use was proportionate and was only to target specific problem areas rather than in a widespread or catch-all way. <BR /> <BR />The amendment also refers about mandatory registration at the point of sale, which means looking at regulatory as well as legislative changes. We should look at every available effective opportunity, within reason, to tackle the scourge.”
“It is not that there is no legal underpinning for the police to take action, whether that is enforcement around the young people who are driving such vehicles or seizing or destroying them. Those powers exist, but clearly they are not being used as effectively and as comprehensively as we would wish. We are open — that is why it is mentioned in our motion — to looking at other potential legislative interventions to tackle this scourge. <BR /> <BR />It was also said that there may not be enough time left in the mandate. It is worth going back to the point — Members from the Minister's party have made it many times — that it is one of the frustrations that, less than a year from the dissolution of the Assembly, we end up saying to ourselves again that we do not have time. It will be five years on from the previous election.”
“However, it escalates quickly, and they often are not aware of or it is not made clear to them the consequences if things go wrong and, indeed, even if it is at a lower level, the inconvenience and the effect they are having on neighbours in their community. <BR /> <BR />Phillip Brett mentioned the issues in North Belfast. It is clearly an issue in North Belfast too, including around the Belfast hills that overlook the city. In responding to the debate, the Minister mentioned the relevant articles of the Criminal Justice (NI) Order 2008 — actually, they were first mentioned by Nuala McAllister and then touched on by the Minister — to show that there are powers that exist at the minute.”
“<BR /> <BR />I touched on Emma's points about her experience in south Derry. I acknowledge that there are particular constituencies where this has been a huge challenge, particularly in West Belfast. My colleague Councillor Paul Doherty has done a huge amount of work in advocating a more robust response and a twin-track — no pun intended — approach of engaging with young people and the community groups and youth groups that can reach those young people. It is important to say that, in many cases, the escalation of the misuse of scrambler bikes and e-scooters is about young kids, often but not exclusively young men, who do it for innocent reasons to begin with. It is a fun activity with their mates.”
“Part of the purpose of today is to get consensus on moving forward the operational response. We and others make no apology for talking about operational matters, as it were, on the Floor of the Assembly. Obviously, the Policing Board is the practical means by which people ask questions of the police directly, but there is nothing wrong with MLAs talking in the Chamber about operational matters that affect their constituents, particularly when they relate to public safety. That does not mean that we are second-guessing the decisions of individual police officers. <BR /> <BR />We will support the DUP amendment, which makes interesting points, including on the increased use of regulation and drones. It has been a useful debate. I will run through a few of the comments that stood out to me.”
“You can, on the one hand, acknowledge that people can use the vehicles for positive recreation and, on the other hand, say that there is huge and widespread misuse of them that is plaguing ordinary people, in particular the elderly, the vulnerable, people who are sight-disabled, those with pets and those moving about the city. <BR /> <BR />Members referred to the tragic circumstances of Valerie Armstrong, who died in Colin Glen a decade ago. She was a young mother with young children. There is no trivialising the loss of that life or, indeed, that of Grace Lynch, whose name has gone to the creation of Grace's law in the South. <BR /> <BR />It is true, as multiple Members mentioned, including the AERA Minister, that some but not all of Grace's law is already on the statute book in the North.”
“Not in south Derry, but, out the back of my house, a neighbour of mine — I will not name him, because he would not appreciate it — was a big scrambler person. The less said about that the better. <BR /> <BR />It is true that there are lots of young people who enjoy scrambler use. Some of them get into motor sport later in life. It can be a positive recreation. It is important, however, not to trivialise the consequences of the misuse of such vehicles. While we can acknowledge that many young people enjoy using such vehicles and can do so in a healthy way — Robbie Butler, who is not here any more, mentioned, for example, the use of open space in Lisburn in his constituency in order to give young people the space to use them — it is a plague in lots of communities.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. This has been a useful and thoughtful debate. Opposition days are often a mix of political division, with us holding the Executive to account, as we did robustly earlier today, but also seeking a degree of consensus and progress on issues. It is clear that the widespread use of e-scooters and scramblers is a huge issue in Belfast particularly and urban areas more generally. <BR /> <BR />I should say to Emma Sheerin that, although people sometimes do not believe it, I grew up in the countryside until I was a teenager, and there are scramblers —”
“Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that update. It is welcome that you now think that the completion of the drafting of the Bill is finally within sight. Workers here have been left behind with outdated employment rights legislation for far too long, so the Bill is overdue, but it is overdue because your colleague started the consultation nearly two years ago. Do you regret the delay in publishing the legislation, and are you worried that you are risking the legislation, which is urgent and needed for workers, because of the delay in introducing it to the Assembly?”