Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“Like many of the policies and plans that have been put together by the Executive, they have been delayed, and, when they have been published, they have been lacking. As I said, the most recent round of this plan is a legal requirement, but it is three years late; it was due in December 2021. I acknowledge that the Minister sitting here today is not responsible for a significant proportion of that delay, but he is in office now. Not only has it not been implemented but it has not been approved or published. <BR /> <BR />What is more, what has been produced has been criticised as inadequate. I mentioned the Office for Environmental Protection. Although it is not a full independent environmental protection agency, it is the only body with the power to hold DAERA to account.”
“It is also a cross-border issue; as we know, one of the rivers that flows into Lough Neagh originates in Monaghan. Believe it or not, we already have a strong regulatory framework that should protect fresh water and our fresh water environment. Our fresh water should be not only a participant in agriculture but a driver of tourism and fisheries, but we are losing both of those opportunities. The Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) Regulations (NI) 2017 require DAERA to develop and implement river basin management plans over a six-year cycle. Those plans are critical. They should contain a full set of environmental objectives, alongside a programme of measures aimed at achieving them.”
“<BR /> <BR />The response to the crisis in Lough Neagh serves in many ways as a metaphor for how the Executive, and previous Executives, have worked: problems have been ignored and allowed to build up, and evidence and warning signs have been ignored. Although the response in this case has been well-intentioned, it has, so far, been inadequate, given the scale of the challenge. As the Executive congratulate themselves on the release of the Lough Neagh action plan, which contains some good intentions but not enough meaningful action, their compliance with basic environmental law is in question. The result is that a third of our rivers, lakes and streams fail to meet legal thresholds for water quality. <BR /> <BR />This issue affects constituencies throughout this region.”
“Clean and plentiful fresh water is essential for life. It is a fundamental human right that is critical for food production, recreation, culture, human health and well-being. However, with blue-green algae smothering Lough Neagh for two years in a row, it goes without saying that the health of our rivers, lakes and streams has risen up the public agenda here in Northern Ireland. Our motion recognises that fact, as well as the importance of upholding our legal obligations in relation to fresh water. That is what we are doing today. I hope that the Minister, who I know takes these issues seriously, will see us doing our job today of accountability as a constructive Opposition.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will endeavour to be brief. <BR /> <BR />I move today's motion as two shocking reports are published by the Office for Environmental Protection (OEP). The first, which has come in the past few days, relates to the motion and calls for the river basin management plan, which is now three years overdue, to be published. The other one was published today, and it is shocking. It talks about the unsustainability of the current pressures that we have placed on nature in Northern Ireland. There can be no doubt that, of all the crises that we face in this society and all the urgent things that we discuss, including paramilitarism and housing, which we have discussed today, the crisis that we have created in our biodiversity and nature in this region cannot be overestimated or overstated.”
“I am sure that it is not just that, but I would like a Speaker's ruling or some kind of examination of it.”
“We sit in plenary only two days a week, and it is profoundly concerning that about half of the Executive can simply not be here when there is urgent business. <BR /> <BR />I would flatter the constructive Opposition to think that it is simply because they are scared of responding to us”
“On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. It pertains to the previous debate and, indeed, to other business yesterday and today. By my count, we are missing at least four Ministers at the minute. Minister Lyons was in America, unable to respond to today's debate; I welcome the Education Minister's stepping in. The deputy First Minister was not here today to participate in the debate on paramilitarism. Minister Long was not around yesterday for a question for urgent oral answer on the femicide crisis. I am aware that Minister Murphy is in Germany. I support the fact that he is getting jobs, and, thankfully, there is no business facing him. However, will the Speaker's Office examine, as a bare minimum, better joining-up with the Ministers' diaries.”
“I appreciate the Minister giving way. I am sure that Minister Lyons is doing important work in America; I look forward to hearing about it. I hope we in the Assembly do not get another letter from America. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister pass on to Minister Lyons, as he develops the housing supply strategy, that there needs to be an urgent conversation with the Infrastructure Minister on what is meant by the idea of a developer charge. Ms Armstrong made some reasonable observations on the practicalities around that. It is important that we understand promptly what is being talked about, because, at the minute, it feels very tentative and somewhat vague.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Will she agree that, while there has been lots of talk in the Chamber, including from the First Minister, about agreeing on the need to tackle the scourge of paramilitarism, what we actually need is the review of that programme with a specific focus on when and what the end point will be, not simply a continuation of funding for those programmes in an open-ended way but funding them with a clear goal for what the end point is?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He is making some powerful points. Further to a report by his former colleague John Kyle — he has done some interesting things, although I do not agree with all of them — that, I am sure, the Member will reference, does he agree that there is a difference between a conversation that says, "Tell us a specific date on which the transition will end and you will be an entirely legal organisation", as the report says, and a conversation that is an open-ended policy discussion without any end point that legitimises a group's existence?”
“In the final months of conflict, awful things happened. In the past couple of weeks, we have been reminded of them with the death of Gina Murray, who fought for justice for her daughter, who was killed in the Shankill bomb. Last Friday night, I was in O'Toole's pub, my uncle's pub in Loughinisland, where victims of that atrocity still have received no justice. We owe it to them and to all those whom we serve now and who will come into this society in future —”
“<BR /> <BR />In 1994, we were promised a democratic future. Men — leaders like David Ervine, Gusty Spence and, yes, David Adams — who had pasts but were clear that they wanted to build a future and others promised us that democratic future. Thirty years on, it is time to claim that future. We do not have to accept the abnormal as normal.”
“There are lots of other community groups, including groups involving other former loyalist and republican paramilitaries, that do it in an upfront and transparent way. As I said, our motion calls for a fundamental review of the programme. We need to ensure that every penny is focused on clearly bringing to an end the influence and presence of such organisations and to be clear that every penny spent on the programme is aimed towards that goal. If people were honest with themselves in the Chamber, it would be hard to say that we can justify every penny that is currently being spent on those programmes on the basis of that test. It may also mean encouraging other law enforcement agencies, including HMRC, to work more closely with the PSNI in tackling the proceeds of those paramilitary crime lords.”
“Our motion calls for a fundamental review of the tackling paramilitarism programme. We want to ensure that every penny and every action is relentlessly focused on ending the scourge of paramilitarism, updating our Programme for Government to include clearer timelines, targets and unambiguous aims — yes, that includes a clear rejection of attempts by organisations, or groups linked to those organisations to influence, without a democratic mandate, the political and policy process. Should those organisations wish to seek to influence the democratic mandate, there is a route to stand for election. They can register with the Electoral Commission, or they can form a body corporate and register with Companies House or the Charity Commission.”
“The Member makes a lot of sense, and, indeed, I will come on to talk about the Programme for Government and why it needs to have more specific targets and aims and why it needs to focus on tackling that cost. The Member makes a good point. <BR /> <BR />What do we do? First, transition must have an end point. The process that is known as "transition" or "transformation" feels sometimes like it has been going on longer than 'The Mousetrap', with the performers refusing to leave the stage. Week after week, we read in tabloid newspapers about the exploits of organisations with daft names, as if they were characters in 'Sesame Street' or 'The Beano'. All the while, they go on inflicting harm on the working-class communities they purport to represent. <BR /> <BR />It does not have to be this way.”
“Nor will I accept that they should have a say in education or young people's prospects when they continue to profit from a drug trade that ruins young lives and continue to carry out punishment attacks. <BR /> <BR />Just as it was pathetic back in the 80s and 90s to hear representatives who supported economic bombing campaigns complain about unemployment when those groups were tearing apart the economic fabric of towns and cities, so today it is hard to hear certain groups call for much-needed economic development of areas whilst they extract money and well-being from those areas. Indeed, paramilitarism itself costs the NI economy £750 million a year — a figure that is in the Programme for Government.”
“They are proud of their military service for their country and proud of the industrial prowess they helped to build, especially in this city. I have the greatest respect for all those things, which have nothing whatever to do with armed criminal gangs. To conflate the two is offensive to the hard work and service of people in those communities. Those communities, along with other working-class communities, have real needs in relation to housing and education that this place has failed to address for too long. I want better for those communities, but I will not accept that those paramilitaries or their representatives have a say on housing when, according to the most recent Independent Reporting Commission data, nearly 200 households were forced into homelessness because of paramilitaries.”
“The motion is not simply aimed at loyalist paramilitarism; it is aimed at all forms of paramilitarism, republican and loyalist. To avoid any doubt, let me say that it includes displays of what we might call "paramilitary exceptionalism" — the idea that paramilitary structures or former leaders get to play by different rules from everybody else. Yes, for the avoidance of doubt, that includes bringing a republican colour party onto the streets during a deadly pandemic while other people's relatives died and were buried alone. <BR /> <BR />It is also vital to differentiate between communities and paramilitaries: they are not the same thing. That is particularly important for loyalist and unionist working-class communities, many of which I am proud to represent. To be absolutely clear, loyalist communities have pride in their flag.”
“Conflating John Hume's role as a peacemaker with indulging armed gangs in 2024 is as stupid as it is offensive. It is a deflection tactic. <BR /> <BR />Let me tackle a few other myths. First, the motion is aimed at challenging persistent and unacceptable paramilitarism wherever it arises. Republican and loyalist paramilitary structures remain in place in different parts of this society. Some still seek political influence, either via acts of violence or other forms of direct or indirect pressure, but most are involved in one form of criminality or another, including drug dealing, racketeering and protection money, where they extract money and power from working-class communities while offering nothing but coercive control in return.”
“Yes, that meant talking to groups and representatives of groups, republican and loyalist, that had been engaged in violence and, indeed, recognising that many of those had a contribution to make to building peace. Opposing violence ultimately necessitated talking to those who were engaged in it, but, in response to some of the pathetic false equivalence thrown up by parties, specifically one party in the Chamber yesterday, let us be clear that this is 2024, not 1994 or 1998. Talking to representatives of armed groups to bring about peace as people were dying is not the same as talking to representatives of armed groups engaged in widespread criminality 30 years on who have no apparent intention of getting off the stage and getting off the backs of communities.”
“Any scintilla of legitimacy that armed groups claimed before 1998 was gone, because anybody who wished to pursue a united Ireland, as I and my party do, had a clear structure and democratic path to achieve that end and anybody who wished to protect the Union with Britain could be assured that the Union was guaranteed to remain for as long as the majority in the North so wished, and governance inside Northern Ireland would be specifically designed to embed inclusion and multiple safeguards for all traditions. <BR /> <BR />To be clear, I and my party never believed that violence before 1998 was legitimate or necessary or is worthy of mythologising — quite the opposite — but we recognised that a political solution to our appalling conflict would need to be as inclusive as possible.”
“While I see the logic in that argument, it is also important to confront the political influence that those organisations seek to wield and to understand the broader historical context of political violence in Irish history. The use of violence or the threat of violence or the implication of violence at some point in the future has been a constant in political life on this island and especially in the North for, literally, centuries. However, we are not here to enter into debate about the legitimacy of any or every armed campaign going back to the 17th century. Suffice it to say that one of the core purposes of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement was to mark a clear and unambiguous break with what had gone before.”
“It is also important to acknowledge that incidents of violence related to what is euphemistically called the "security situation" in Northern Ireland, be those shootings, bombings or other paramilitary-style attacks, have fallen in the past decade according to PSNI data and as published in the reports of the Independent Reporting Commission (IRC). However, such attacks still happen, and, as the shooting of DCI Caldwell showed, there are still some determined to use deadly violence for political ends. <BR /> <BR />Paramilitarism continues to blight too many communities, especially working-class ones. Some say that we should not even use the term "paramilitary" in 2024 because that word confers a kind of political purpose or legitimacy on the organisations.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. Thirty years ago this month, the Combined Loyalist Military Command (CLMC) announced its cessation of violence. That announcement came a month and a half after the Provisional IRA had announced its ceasefire. Thirty years is, by any measurement, a long time; it is more than a generation. It is also more than the length of time that those organisations were engaged in armed campaigns. In short, it is more than enough time for those organisations to have finally got off the stage, but, as we know, that has not happened. <BR /> <BR />Our society has been transformed since the 1990s, overwhelmingly for the positive.”
“I ask that the Minister speaks to his colleague the Justice Minister to look at that piece of legislation and see whether it requires repeal or amendment. At the minute, media organisations, in many cases, do not feel legally able to report that many female victims of murder —”
“Minister, you may not be able to deal with the detail of this. Section 8 of the Justice (Sexual Offences and Trafficking Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 included anonymity not just for people who were accused of rape but for those who experienced rape or were victims of it. This is a very serious and sensitive subject. Media organisations have got in touch with me to say that there is now a very serious situation in Northern Ireland where they are legally unable to report when women who are murdered are also victims of rape. This is a very serious matter: it pertains to public information around the appalling epidemic of sexual violence and femicide that are intimately, unfortunately, connected.”
“If I am to divine from that, Minister, that, in all likelihood, the monitoring round will not happen in October, two things flow from that: either you and your officials were wrong to say in June that monitoring rounds had to happen in the specified month and cannot be delayed for major things such as Budgets and general elections, or they can be delayed. Can you clarify why it was wrong then and not now?”
“Minister, with the greatest respect, the Budget sustainability plan is waffle. Most of the text simply summarises actions that were obvious anyway, such as seeking multi-year Budgets. Honestly, I say that with the greatest respect. At appendix D, however, there are some interesting tables on the options for revenue-raising some £113 million. One of those options is to raise £6 million through car parking charges. It points out that delaying the implementation of the Hospital Parking Charges Act 2022 will realise £6 million of savings and, therefore, revenue. Is it the position of you and your Department to count, as a revenue-raising measure, delaying the implementation of a piece of private Member's legislation that one of your colleagues introduced?”
“Minister, in response — you did not say this in your answer — to a colleague of mine, Councillor de Faoite, you indicated the large number of organisations that have been declined meetings. What do you say to those organisations, many of which are charities and which are legally registered with the Charity Commission, Companies House and all sorts of other legal routes, that are startled to see you decline meetings with them but accept meetings with an umbrella group linked to paramilitary organisations?”
“This is one small legislative step that, I think, will enable people to feel that that awful, traumatic event is not a burden that they have to carry by themselves, in private. The otherwise stark bureaucracy of the state has found a way of poignantly helping them to mark and remember the very awful loss that they have suffered. I look forward to working with the Minister and the Department to make that legislative change.”
“This should have been an example of bringing something relatively straightforward before the Assembly, so I not-so-gently encourage the Executive and the Minister to bring forward that stand-alone legislation sooner rather than later. I think that, when that happens, it will find a broad base of support in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I add my party's reflections to the importance of baby loss certificates, which the Minister touched on in her speech. I think that everybody understands, particularly given that we have just come through Baby Loss Awareness Week, how extraordinarily difficult it can be for people who experience that trauma in their life or in the life of their family.”
“It is humane, and it will be welcomed by people who have experienced bereavements and also by doctors and those in the funeral-care world who interact with those processes each day. It is completely sensible, but it is also necessary for us to legislate. <BR /> <BR />We are doing a lot of debating in the Chamber at the minute on motions, some of which are necessary and vital. Opposition day motions are certainly a critical part of holding the Executive to account, but, when it comes to Executive party time, one might argue that we are doing a lot of going through the motions. The three letters after our names stand for Member of the Legislative Assembly, so we should be here to legislate. We, as yet, have not seen very much primary legislation from the Executive.”
“Committee members stand ready to work with her to create a change that will make a huge difference to parents who have suffered the tragedy of losing a child during pregnancy. The Committee supports the motion to approve the regulations. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I will speak, briefly, in my party capacity. The delay in turning this into stand-alone primary legislation is deeply frustrating, and it is deeply frustrating that we were told that legislation would be delivered more quickly than has been the case. The use of what were effectively emergency provisions from the pandemic is, to put it mildly, not ideal. It is necessary and proper that we move expeditiously to deliver legislation that will put the use of electronic means to register deaths and stillbirths on a proper, permanent statutory basis. That is entirely sensible.”
“That news is particularly welcome and poignant coming, as it does, at the end of Baby Loss Awareness Week. <BR /> <BR />The Committee considered the SR at its meeting on 2 October. While the Examiner of Statutory Rules had not yet reported on the rule at that point, members had no objection to the rule, subject to her report. At its meeting on 9 October, the Committee considered the Examiner's report, which indicated that she had no objection to the rule and recommended that it be approved by the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister knows, the Committee will play an active role in holding her and her officials to account and ensuring that baby loss certificates are included in the Bill, finally making those provisions permanent.”
“The Committee agreed to write to the Department to seek further clarification on what is possible within the existing draft Bill, including whether there is any potential to widen the draft Bill to allow for legislative provision for baby loss certificates, as well as to seek any further detail around logistics and resources for making such provision. <BR /> <BR />The Committee is somewhat frustrated with the time that it has taken for the provision on the registration of deaths and stillbirths online and by phone to be drafted into permanent, stand-alone primary legislation: there have been dead ends and false dawns. However, the Committee very much welcomes the Minister's decision to incorporate baby loss certificates into that legislation, following members' requests that she do so.”
“At its meeting on 11 September, the Committee agreed that it was content with the proposed statutory rule and with extending the temporary provision made under the Act until the end of March 2025. <BR /> <BR />During that briefing with GRO officials last month, Committee members raised the issue of whether the deaths and stillbirths Bill could contain provision for baby loss certificates. The Committee discussed that issue again, in closed session, at its meeting of 18 September. That discussion ranged across a number of options in relation to the Bill legislating for baby loss certificates.”
“The Committee for Finance has had extensive written and oral briefings on these legislative provisions and on the Department's work in this area. The Committee previously agreed statutory rules made under the provisions of the Coronavirus Act 2020 relating to the recording of deaths and stillbirths. <BR /> <BR />The most recent of those briefings was at the Committee's meeting of 11 September, when GRO officials briefed Committee members on the work that was being advanced on the proposed death and stillbirths legislation. The Department indicated that it would be bringing forward primary legislation to put on a statutory basis those measures for registering deaths and stillbirths by phone and electronically that had been made temporarily under the Coronavirus Act 2020.”
“— I have to say that that is completely unacceptable.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, I express some regret and concern — I hope that we do not have to return to this subject — at the appearance of a sign at a point on Durham Street that is also known as "Boyne Bridge", which is due to be deconstructed for the purposes of building access to Grand Central station. I recognise that there are architectural and other historical and cultural reasons why what is called the Boyne Bridge has resonance for people. It cannot be acceptable to put up signs that carry, implicitly or explicitly, a threat to people. We have to move beyond that in this society. We have a debate on a related matter tomorrow on Opposition time, but —”
“That said, there will still be people who need to use their cars for various reasons, such as accessibility or a lack of public transport infrastructure where they are. We need to be clear and communicate properly with people who will be affected by the disruption that, where they can, they should avail themselves of public transport or, if they can, avoid making that journey. Also, we should tell people to use as much public transport as they can and to use active transport opportunities. However, there is a particular onus on the Minister and the Department to be clear and to communicate better with people this year on the closure of Durham Street.”
“It is important to mark the opening of Grand Central and the restarting of those cross-border rail services as an example of the connectivity that we can build on the island. I look forward to getting the train to Dublin from the new Grand Central and all of the opportunities that that provides. <BR /> <BR />I want to touch on the related matter of the disruption that will be caused in Belfast for commuters and other road users. Following on from Mr McReynolds's remarks, I agree with him, and it is vital to say that a strategic priority for the Department for Infrastructure and for the Executive more generally should be to do all that we can to get people out of their cars and on to public transport, using active travel where they can.”
“I agree with my DUP colleague across the Chamber that it should have included the county of Fermanagh, and we will stand with anybody in that county who wishes to have rail connections there too.”
“I want to touch briefly on some good news, some frustrating news and some more concerning developments. First, train services have begun, with the restarting of full cross-border services, at Grand Central station. One hundred years ago, we had a thriving rail network across the island. One of the tragedies of the 20th century in transport terms was the fact that that rail network was butchered, particularly in the west of what became Northern Ireland and in relation to cross-border lines. <BR /> <BR />We now have the opportunity, from the base of Grand Central station, which is the biggest transport hub in Ireland, to start to grow and build the future that is set out for us in the all-island strategic rail review.”
“I agree that golf events can be a driver of tourism — pun intended; I'm here all week. My question relates to the extension of the two tourism brands — Ireland's Ancient East and the Wild Atlantic Way — that cover areas close to Royal Portrush and Royal County Down. Last month, I was at the Irish Open and saw some Ireland's Ancient East branding. Minister, according to the business plan, your Department's target is to extend them to January 2025. Is that on target? When will we see it rolled out more widely?”
“I appreciate the deputy First Minister's giving way. She talked about the multi-year Budget: my party wants to see that too. Was she disappointed that the Budget sustainability plan, which was produced last week, did not have a huge amount of detail or ambition on long-term measures to reform and improve how we manage public finances? It seemed to be mostly a placeholder exercise. Perhaps she can correct me on that point.”
“I thank my colleague for giving way. Will she reflect on the fact that, as well as the seven months between the Executive being restored and the draft Programme for Government being published, there were, as we found out, more than 100 meetings between Executive parties and civil servants between the 2022 election and the restoration? There were literally hundreds of meetings to produce this plan.”
“— they may not get justice. People are literally dying, so will the Minister ensure that there is a proper resolution to the processes? Will he meet some of the families to reassure them that he is committed to getting justice for their family members?”
“The actions of Michael Watt were appalling. Anyone in the House who is engaged with victims or families of victims of Dr Watt will know how serious this is. The award of £50,000 to one victim of Dr Watt will only reinforce to the others the sense that the painfully slow review process is not moving quickly enough and that —”
“People genuinely do not find that credible. Will you also correct, for the record, the statement that you made to the Executive Office Committee last week in which you said that you had had no contact with any member of the British Heart Foundation, given that there is a photograph of you speaking to the chief executive? Finally, is the senior HR officer who was in contact with the British Heart Foundation still a member of Sinn Féin?”