Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“I will reflect on the Committee for Finance's deliberations on this secondary legislation. The Committee has had written and oral briefings on the legislation and the Department's work on several occasions in the past. The Committee previously agreed a number of statutory rules made under the provisions of the Coronavirus Act 2020, which relate to recording deaths and stillbirths. I note that the extensions, provided for by the statutory rules, will be rendered unnecessary, as the Minister said, when the Deaths, Still-Births and Baby Loss Bill receives Royal Assent. I am delighted to confirm that the Committee has completed its report on the Bill. Hopefully, the Minister will give us the date for its Consideration Stage. The Committee is keen for that to be brought to the House as soon as possible.”
“I am afraid I do not have time to take an intervention. <BR /> <BR />That is why it should have been a priority for the Alliance Party when it went back into the Executive. It appears that it was not, but I am sure that it can account for that. <BR /> <BR />I share with others in the Chamber a desire to see the justice system improved and what was called for in the CJINI report reflected on. That is why we support the motion, and I hope that it can be taken forward in a constructive spirit.”
“Given that, for the whole time that policing and justice has been devolved, in large part one party has held that post when devolution has been in operation, it is not churlish or unreasonable to ask for accountability on that, specifically when that transformation report called for it within six months and that was nine months ago. <BR /> <BR />It is a fair point, made by Alliance Members, that the DUP, as always, and, indeed, Sinn Féin talk about delivery on these things and then collapse the institutions. That is why I want to see reform of the institutions. I share that with the Alliance Party. Last February, that should have been —.”
“I am delighted that my social media content is so popular. We will move on from that point and go back to the main thrust of the motion, which is about criminal justice. <BR /> <BR />I mentioned the delay in Crown Court cases, and there is also the matter of reoffending rates. I can genuinely say that the Justice Minister and her party are committed to rehabilitation and to reducing reoffending. I think that they are. Our reoffending rates are not coming down. Adult reoffending rates are actually slightly up from where they were when justice was devolved. I think that youth reoffending rates are slightly down. Those are things that we are entitled to hold the Minister accountable for.”
“I will take a point briefly in the spirit of constructive debate.”
“That is, why, frankly, I was pointing out that it was so absurd to hear phrases such as "my Minister" when you are, on the other hand, calling for cooperation.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is true to say that, since the devolution of policing and justice 15 years ago, there are real structural problems that have not been resolved and, in many cases, have got worse. Mr Kingston referred to the time that it takes to get through Crown Court cases. The most famous aphorism of all is that justice delayed is justice denied. When Crown Court cases take twice the length of time of those in other parts of the UK, that is a fundamental structural problem in our criminal justice system. It is why we need to see a response from the Department and clarity. I acknowledge that it is cross-cutting and that it involves other Departments and Ministers from other Departments supporting the Justice Minister.”
“I have, actually, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I will not challenge your ruling. <BR /> <BR />What I will say is this: the Criminal Justice Inspection report came out in November 2024. It was clear that it wanted a vision document published within six months. That is at the heart of the motion. That has not yet been published. A written answer was given to Miss McIlveen, a DUP Member, just a couple of weeks ago. It was a long answer, but it offered no clarity on when that vision would be published. That is why the motion is here today, and I recognise that there are certain Members in the Chamber who do not like accountability. We as the Opposition do accountability without fear or favour, and it has to be said that Members from across the Chamber have simply asked today for accountability on a vital matter of criminal justice policy.”
“It is a fact. It was funny to hear Alliance members stand up and talk about —.”
“First — I am not in the Chair — I am sure that that was not a point of order, but the Member is entitled to stand up and make it. <BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party has demanded, effectively, the privatisation of the Justice Ministry for the past decade and a half while devolution has been in operation. Sorry: I am afraid that that is a fact.”
“Sorry: I am in the middle of my speech. Do you want an intervention? OK.”
“I will give way in one second. They have all come here to do justice to their master's voice. It is a completely ridiculous way, frankly, to do government and politics. The motion —.”
“I will try to speak briefly to the motion. As my colleague Patsy McGlone said, the SDLP will support it. My party does not agree with the DUP all too often, but it is a totally reasonable motion. The point of its being reasonable is made ever so starkly obvious by what, it has to be said, has been, frankly, an intemperate response from members of the Alliance Party to a reasonable motion. We just heard the spokesperson from the Alliance Party referring to something called "my Minister". We were told about "my Minister". I did not realise that, when the Justice Minister took the Pledge of Office, she was pledging to be their Minister. They have all come here to —.”
“I appreciate my colleague giving way. Does he agree that, while lots of things that have been described today are positive in and of themselves, there is a little bit of what he calls "gaslighting" — it could also be referred to as "snake oil" — going on, with people listing things that are happening, some of which were agreed years ago, long before the Executive were restored. They are good things in and of themselves but are being described as if they were huge, revolutionary plans for regional balance when, in fact, they were announced years ago. Positive as those things are, our job as official Opposition is not to cheerlead for them.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. To that end, does he agree that we therefore really need to see the investment strategy published? Is his party asking for that at the Executive? I have no idea where it is.”
“When will an Irish Language Commissioner be appointed and in office?”
“Please answer my specific question: is continued engagement with the Loyalist Communities Council appropriate in that context? Further to that, will you demonstrate that you agree that delivery on the Irish language is legitimate and appropriate?”
“— when your party and others in the Executive have abysmally failed on delivery.”
“To be absolutely clear, deputy First Minister, I asked you an entirely legitimate question. Do not lecture me or the Opposition about delivery”
“With the greatest of respect, it is in Standing Orders, so I think that it was in order to ask that question. <BR /> <BR />My second point of order relates to the Executive legislation programme, which came out via email to Members of the Assembly on Friday. It is supposed to be the legislation programme for what is left of this year and next year. Given what the Speaker has said about statements being brought to the Assembly, it is highly unacceptable that it was emailed to us with no oral statement from the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Will the Speaker's Office advise on whether it is comfortable with such an important document being emailed to Members on a Friday as if it were correspondence about a lunch event?”
“On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.”
“OK, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. On Thursday, I received a response to a question for written answer that I submitted in February 2024. I asked when a Programme for Government would be published. A draft Programme for Government was published in September last year, and it was finalised in March this year. Standing Orders provide that a written answer should be given within 10 days. It has taken 20 months. Will the Speaker's Office advise whether that is acceptable?”
“On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. In fact, I have two, but I will try to get them in briefly, and you can shut me down if I —.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Jewish community in Belfast is very small, and those people will, I am sure, feel vulnerable at this time, so let me say this clearly and personally to them: we hear you. You are part of our community. You are wanted, you are treasured and you are part of this city and this community. The acts on Friday were utterly repellent, and I am glad that we have had the opportunity to stand against them today.”
“The evil of antisemitism is pernicious, timeless and has to be stood against, as all forms of hatred, racism, prejudice and Islamophobia must be stood against. It is important to say that there can be no context for the people who carried out that act. There is no cause that justifies or mitigates that appalling, depraved, evil act. <BR /> <BR />It is also true that people are entitled to make criticisms and observations about what is happening in the world. The appalling events in Manchester should in no way be conflated, as one or two have done today — I do not want to get into that debate because it is not appropriate — with people standing against horrific events in another part of the world, because there is no justification or context for those evil acts.”
“There are, as the Member who spoke previously said, no words of context that mitigate, contextualise or justify what was unmitigated antisemitic hatred turned into a murderous act. Those words have to be absolute, complete and definitive. That act of hatred and evil was made worse by the fact that it happened on a holy day — the holiest day for people of the Jewish faith, Yom Kippur. <BR /> <BR />In expressing condolences to the families of the immediate victims, let me also express my and my party's solidarity with the Jewish community in Manchester but also with the Jewish communities here in Northern Ireland, on the island of Ireland and across these islands. Let me say that we understand and acknowledge the real fear that they feel at the minute. It is real, and we will not minimise it. What we saw on Friday was utterly depraved.”
“Like others, I express my condolences to the families of Adrian Daulby and Melvin Cravitz, who were murdered at the Heaton Park Hebrew congregation in Manchester in the most grotesque and evil act of antisemitic hatred.”
“As public representatives, we need to get behind it, deliver on it and not let it fall into more dereliction. <BR /> <BR />I commend the Cathedral Quarter BID. Save CQ has been amazing at campaigning on the issue. Individual reps from a load of parties have worked hard on it. Let us do right by them. Let us deliver it, let us be specific and let us have no more debates in which we all agree with one another. Let us actually do this and make the project and that part of the city thrive again.”
“For too long in this place, we have stood up and all agreed with one another, and then — guess what? — nothing has happened. <BR /> <BR />On the question of whether we are talking about North or South Belfast, here is the point: it is Belfast. Most people who walk down Hill Street, have a pint of Beamish or Murphys in the brilliant Duke of York and then walk round to Donegall Street and North Street say, "Why is this like this? We are in the middle of one of the most happening cities in Ireland and one of the most interesting cities in Europe. Why is there this block of derelict land?" To be honest, guys, we are all worried about where our constituency boundaries lie, but people are not aware of whether they are in North, South, West or East Belfast; they just know that it is Belfast and that it is brilliant and full of potential.”
“It is perfectly within the Executive's legal powers to do that. Why not? We could use financial transactions capital (FTC). FTC is already being used — I hope — to deliver Casement Park, and I think that the Minister wants to use it to deliver other football stadia. I have no problem with that. Why not use it for this purpose? That is something that we could explore. If not that, what? We cannot go on like this. We cannot have any more debates, whether they be Opposition debates or Adjournment debates, or questions in which we talk about something being done only for nothing to happen. I see people looking around the room and thinking, "This guy is being annoying again. He is standing up and making a nuisance of himself", but I do not care, because that is my job.”
“I would like to hear an update on what happened in those meetings and whether there have been any further meetings, because not only is the site full of potential but we have wasted two decades of potential. As politicians and political parties, we have all had some hand in that, but we all now have responsibility, and some of us have more than others, because some of us do not hold ministerial office to deliver on it. It will require a joined-up effort. <BR /> <BR />One option that we, as the Opposition, put forward last year was that the Executive, working with Belfast City Council, should create something like the Laganside Corporation. There were some objections to the way in which Laganside worked, and I am not saying that it was perfect, but it was a company that vested land and delivered a regeneration project.”
“I want to see all that happen, but it is important to say that the Assembly passed a motion last November to do all those things. The public out there do not want us just to show up and talk about these things again and again; they want something to happen. I am therefore glad that we have consensus today. Whether it comes from an Adjournment debate today or an Opposition day debate last year, let us see some progress being made. I hope to hear from the Minister. I welcome the fact that he is here to talk about it, because, in May and June 2024, I asked him two questions for written answer about the meetings that he was having about Tribeca and potential regeneration work. He said that he had not had meetings but that he planned to have meetings with the chief executive of Belfast City Council.”
“We also called on the Minister for Communities and the Minister for the Economy to work with the Finance Minister and Belfast City Council to further proposals for the site.”
“That motion asked the Minister of Finance to look at city centre dereliction and at a vacant land tax, which Ms Armstrong just referenced. It also referred to doing something about the historic significance of the Assembly Rooms, and I am glad to say that some progress has been made and that the council is moving towards acquiring that site. We called on the Minister of Finance to do a full rates review of what was happening across the site, because responses to questions for written answer from me revealed the fact that widespread and apparently inappropriate rates reliefs were being given to properties that were falling into dereliction on that site. That was discovered because I asked questions about it.”
“Nearly a year ago, on an Opposition day, the Opposition brought a motion to the Assembly about Tribeca and the preposterous failure to deliver on ending the dereliction there.”
“However, given that I am the leader of the Opposition as well as a representative of Belfast — I want to talk about the Belfast context — I will inject a little bit of dissent. That is important because dissent is that great, radical, Presbyterian quality that we associate with the Assembly Rooms in that part of Belfast. <BR /> <BR />I will inject dissent into the consensus in the debate because, while we agree that something must be done, someone watching this debate from outside might think that we are a bit like Mark Twain talking about the weather:”
“I am pleased to speak on the subject. It is one that Mr Brett and I have talked about a lot, and we share some of the same priorities on the city centre. I am glad that he has proposed the debate. The pedestrianisation of Hill Street and the introduction of night buses are all things that we need in order to maximise the amazing potential of our city centre as a cultural, historic, economic driver not just of this city but of the region and the entire northern part of the island. <BR /> <BR />The further development of what is shamefully and irritatingly known as "Tribeca" is one of those things. I agree with basically everyone that that is an ahistorical, vulgar and preposterous title to give such a brilliant and historic part of Belfast.”
“I am challenging you. You are the Minister.”
“You are the Minister. You are accountable.”
“Minister, you talk about careful scrutiny. There are people who wish that you, as Minister, and perhaps your officials had given more careful scrutiny to the planning application that went in. We and the people who want the A5 built would perhaps then not have been in this situation in the first place. Specifically on the money that could be handed back, you are the Finance Minister and are responsible for that reallocation and underspend. How much will that be, and what will be done with it? Please be specific.”
“Minister, will the multi-year Budget that you will bring forward, we hope, later this year be produced alongside an investment strategy? The Programme for Government (PFG), which was finalised earlier this year, promised an investment strategy. It is clear that we need one to sit alongside the Programme for Government and the multi-year Budget. When will it be published?”
“We know that we have had a lot of people criticise the Assembly's capacity and ability to scrutinise — I say that diplomatically — so we need to get this one right. I therefore say gently to members of all Committees and Members from all parties that the Bill needs to be scrutinised properly and that it is not just the Committee for Finance's job to do so. I beg the indulgence of the Speaker to make that point. I ask the Assembly to pass the motion.”
“I will pick a few aspects out of the Bill. The Minister happens to be in the Chamber for another item of business, but I am not going to ask her to respond. The Bill, however, gives her Department the power to grade tourist facilities and to levy certain charges on tourism providers for training. It gives TEO sweeping powers to spend money to end violence against women and girls. That is a huge and important subject, but we need to understand what those powers are. The Bill contains powers to address housing association fraud. It also gives the Department for Infrastructure the power to levy charges on SmartPasses, which is somewhat interesting for Members and people who are over the age of 60. <BR /> <BR />Those are really big powers, so it is really important that we scrutinise them.”
“The Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill is extremely important. We passed it at Second Reading because it is important that we look at some of the powers being taken here. There is a range of things that the public will expect us to have scrutinised. I will say gently to members of other Committees that they should not expect the Finance Committee either to simply wave the Bill through or to do their job of scrutiny for them.”
“<BR /> <BR />I listed the calculations for Bill scrutiny that Committees include in their schedule in the previous motion, so I will not list them all again. While requesting that the Assembly supports the extension, however, the Committee asks that Members give us the flexibility that we need to discharge our statutory scrutiny role in respect of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />At our meeting on 7 September, the Committee agreed the motion to extend Committee Stage. We believe that it is necessary, but I reiterate and underline that the extension date is a deadline and a limit rather than a target. As Chair, I am very much committed to that. The Committee commends the motion and asks the House to approve it. <BR /> <BR />I will now make a couple of brief comments in a party capacity.”
“Part of the purpose of our extended Committee Stage will be to allow us to consider that advice and work towards a resolution. Additionally, the extension will allow the Committee to deal with any issues raised by other Committees. We have written to all of the other relevant Statutory Committees to ask them for their views on the issues raised by the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill. <BR /> <BR />As with the Fiscal Council Bill, an extension would recognise the Halloween and Christmas recesses and the Committee's broader work programme, which includes the Fiscal Council Bill; Budget scrutiny, including, we hope, a multi-year Budget; and work on Civil Service reform; as well as all the ongoing other work that Statutory Committees have to deal with. We have a busy schedule.”
“<BR /> <BR />It has already become apparent to the Committee that the clause that deals with the transfer of the procurement and management of external auditors for the Audit Office from the Department of Finance to the Assembly's Audit Committee is a subject of live dispute between the Audit Committee and the Department of Finance. That is just one issue on which further evidence needs to be taken. We need to understand exactly the appropriateness of that power. The Audit Committee does not believe that it has the capacity or, indeed, the vires to undertake that role — the Bill would give it the vires — while the Department believes that the Audit Committee does or should have the capacity. The Audit Committee has sought legal advice on the matter, and the Committee for Finance will do the same.”
“As I said, however, without extending this Committee Stage too, it would end next Tuesday, 7 October, and we would not have enough time to scrutinise the Bill in detail. We would have to forgo oral evidence sessions, and neither I nor the Committee thinks that we would have sufficient time to scrutinise all of the substantial measures in the Bill. Many are technical, but they still require further detailed scrutiny, while some are not that technical. Not seeking an extension to Committee Stage would, quite possibly, result in criticism of the Committee and, indeed, the broader Assembly for not sufficiently scrutinising the Bill.”
“A number of Departments indicated miscellaneous administrative matters that they wished to have included in the Bill. Therefore, the Bill gives effect — this is where it is different from the Fiscal Council Bill — to policy proposals from DAERA, DFC, DFE, DFI, TEO and DE, as well as policy proposals from DOF itself. The Bill was introduced in the Assembly on Monday 23 June 2025. It completed its Second Stage, as with the Fiscal Council Bill, on Tuesday 1 July 2025 and moved to Committee Stage on 2 July 2025, just before recess. <BR /> <BR />I will not read Standing Order 33(2) into the record again, because I did it for the Fiscal Council Bill and I am sure that Members can refer back to what Standing Orders say about Committee extensions.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will not go through the provisions of the Bill beyond noting that, as I have just said, financial provisions Bills, which deal with administrative matters or give Departments powers to spend money or levy fees in certain ways, come along at semi-regular intervals to deal with routine financial matters that require amendment to governing legislation. During debates on Estimates documents, many of you will have heard complaints about the use of the black box, which is a device to use Budget Acts to authorise spending where no free-standing legislative provision exists. These Bills are designed to tidy up those anomalies and to minimise the use of what is called the "sole authority" of the Budget Act. <BR /> <BR />In developing the Bill, the Department of Finance sought inputs from other Departments.”