Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“A number of gradually dilapidating buildings in the middle of Belfast have historic and significant economic impact. One of them is Crumlin Road courthouse. There is a particular issue in the Cathedral Quarter with Tribeca Belfast. Some of the Bill's provisions —”
“I thank the Committee Chairperson for giving way. Does she agree that, contrary to the intervention from the Minister that we have just heard, the experience with the legislation and what subsequently happened in the court and, indeed, in another instance of which I have been made aware regarding the sexual offences Act prove that this Bill really needs to be scrutinised? There were clear unintended consequences, and the Department really needs to take them seriously. There has to be complete confidence that this Bill is being scrutinised properly. I am sure that her Committee will do that.”
“Minister, the document is largely made up of principles, and there are lots of principles to commend. One thing that is not mentioned in the statement is the cross-border context. Hospitals such as the South West Acute Hospital are already in a real-life network, but they could be in a theoretical network that includes hospitals in Sligo, Leitrim and Cavan. There is already a cross-border healthcare context. There is also an aspiration and a vision to maximise that. What will you do to properly maximise the cross-border potential for services at, for example, Daisy Hill Hospital, Altnagelvin Area Hospital or SWAH to ensure that those services are best used by people on both sides of the border? What will you do to ensure that we maximise the possibilities of cross-border healthcare provision?”
“Minister, do you welcome the direction of travel? As the Opposition, we have always been constructive, and my colleague said that this is the right direction to go in for the north-west in particular and for other regions. It is also true, however, as Deirdre Hargey said, that not every street in Belfast is paved with gold. Belfast will continue to be the economic driver of the entire region; it is sometimes worth saying that. People commute from Newry and Ballymena to Belfast, which means that they benefit from jobs created in Belfast too. Will the local economic partnerships also focus on improving connections to Belfast, whether through public transport or education, so that those regions can get a sense of how their citizens and residents will benefit from growth in Belfast, which we also want to see?”
“Thank you very much to everybody who participated constructively in today's Opposition day.”
“Part of our job in opposition — I know that we occasionally, regularly or constantly irritate people, and we will keep doing that — is to say, "This is about outcomes for our citizens. It is not about whose Minister does this, whose Minister wants more budget or whose Minister hasn't seen what paper. It is about the outcome that we deliver for our citizens". That is fundamentally what the motion is about. <BR /> <BR />In a world of technological advances, social media pressures, climate change and a range of other things, it is extremely challenging for people in a devolved legislature to transform the challenges that face our young people, but we can use every single lever — legislative, regulatory or financial — that we have to do it. I encourage Members to support the motion.”
“It is nearly a decade since this specific piece of legislation was passed, which also created an obligation for the Executive to formulate their Programme for Government on the basis of the provisions and reporting mechanisms of the Act. I have not yet seen any clear evidence — we will be asking questions — as to whether the just-published draft Programme for Government has specifically drawn on what is in that Act, but that resource is there. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly passed that Act a decade ago. Some of us were here then. I was not, but some of us were. The clear intention was that we would start to break down the pernicious traditional culture of silo working. I am afraid that, since the Assembly has returned, we have still seen too much silo working on occasion, and a tendency to say, "That's your Minister, and that's our Minister".”
“The first is broad-based commitment and seriousness on the issue, and I welcome that. Secondly, there is a slight tendency to say — as my colleague Patsy McGlone said in the previous debate — "This is terrible. Something must be done. Is someone going to do something about it?", and to slightly shift responsibility from one Minister to another. I did not hear that attitude from the Minister of Finance, and I commend her on that. I often challenge the Finance Minister, but, on this occasion, she was clear about where her responsibilities lie. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we use whatever powers we have.”
“If we are honest, most people do not know what powers are devolved, what powers are not devolved, where there is cross-border responsibility or where a council does something; they only care about the services that they and their family receive. That is why we should all be about better working, and that is why this motion is robust and specific in calling the Minister of Finance to use her powers. That does not absolve any other Minister, specifically the Minister of Health or even the Minister of Education, with whom, under this legislation, lies the statutory responsibility to deliver the children and young people's strategy. It is important that there is "jointery". <BR /> <BR />Without wishing to score points, I would say that we have heard two things during the debate.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much for the extra minute, Mrs Dillon. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we work together. Even those of us who are in opposition have an important job to do when it comes to delivering something like this. Our job is accountability, but also pushing policy and pushing the discussion in the right direction. That is what this afternoon is all about. <BR /> <BR />It is not very often that Mrs Dodds and I are in agreement, but, on a couple of occasions during her speech, I found myself in thundering agreement with her. She said that, in many cases, the public genuinely do not care who delivers what service for them. That could not be more true. Most people do not know how many Departments there are in Northern Ireland.”
“I will in one second. <BR /> <BR />It places a specific burden on the Department of Finance, and I am glad that the Minister has come to the Chamber to engage on this. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to give way.”
“Multiple Members who spoke, including Ms Forsythe and, I think, someone from Sinn Féin, said that it would perhaps have been more apt to make a specific call of the Health Minister. Of course, we have brought the Health Minister to the Chamber twice today to account for what his Department is doing. It is clear that section 8 of the legislation in question places a specific —.”
“Whether parents or not, we are all aware of the immense burden that our young people face, of the serious mental health challenges that we have and, as multiple Members have mentioned, of the severe challenges that the child and adolescent mental health service faces, including a lack of resources and a lack of ability to deliver. <BR /> <BR />Multiple organisations, whether they are involved in providing children's services or in the mental health sector — that is, the organisations that were represented in an event in the Long Gallery today — have made it clear that the Children's Services Co-Operation Act 2015, which is referred to in the motion, has not been used to its full potential.”
“I will not exhaustively go through everything that was said, because I have only five minutes. There is only a limited amount that any Government or set of elected politicians can do to effect change in something as subtle and variable as the mental health of our citizens, but, in a situation in which it is widely accepted that we have a serious and deepening mental health crisis that is particularly acute among our young people, it is incumbent on all of us to use every power that we have to do something about it. <BR /> <BR />Diane Dodds strikingly and powerfully referred to the Northern Ireland life and times survey, which mentions the fact that 18% of 16-year-olds suffer from chronic physical or mental health challenges.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />First, I thank those who spoke in the debate and those who have spoken on all the motions today. Two of our motions have passed thus far, albeit both were amended. We agreed with one of the amendments but were not so keen on the other one. I thank Members from all parties for the constructive way in which they approached the debate. We have said consistently that, in opposition, we intend to be constructive but that we will also be robust. Sometimes, that means that we are very robust, much to the displeasure of some of the Executive parties, but it also means that we use the time available to have constructive debates in the House. I think that we have largely had constructive debates today. <BR /> <BR />I will touch on a few of the remarks made.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree with me, as a fellow member of the Finance Committee over some years, that one of the things that we were expecting was a Budget sustainability plan? I believe that that should have been published by today. We do not have it. It would be helpful because it would allow other Ministers to understand the basis on which the Finance Minister is making her plans.”
“Minister, I welcome the fact that the independent review was announced. There has been an occasional challenge and pushback in this Chamber about your responsibility for policing. For the record, can you confirm that, should the independent review come back with substantive recommendations for legislative, regulatory or any other change, your Department will take those reforms forward?”
“Following on from the theme that Mr Sheehan has raised — the School Streets initiative — there are in my constituency, South Belfast, umpteen examples of schools that would really benefit from at least testing the School Streets model, which is not just about safety but about air quality and, as you say, active travel. Will the Minister give us a specific timeline for when the Minister expects to be able to update us on whether it will be tested, at least in pilot, or rolled out further across the North?”
“We need to do better, and, through taking responsibility and delivering for them, we need to prove to the people who elect us to here that we are properly about our work. <BR /> <BR />Given the day that is in it, it is important to reflect on another area of accountability on which we need to see some clarity. In the past couple of days, we have seen in the news the grave reports about a former member of staff in the Assembly who was given references by employees of a party in the Assembly and went on to seek employment in another organisation. When it comes to accountability and responsibility, there are further questions to be answered about that. I and others will ask those questions, and we hope to get clear answers.”
“Sinn Féin colleagues tabled a motion on ticket touting and secondary sales after the scandal with Oasis tickets. They did, however, not call on their Minister, the Minister for the Economy, to take any action. That is ridiculous. We saw the Alliance Party table a motion on green growth in which it congratulated and garlanded with praise its Minister, the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, for action that he had taken, yet the motion did not call on him to do anything to deliver the green new deal that is in the party's manifesto. <BR /> <BR />All of that, I am afraid, goes to the heart of responsibility-shifting in this place: the sense that all of us in here want a little power but no one wants to take responsibility or accountability. It is pathetic.”
“<BR /> <BR />Over the past few weeks, we have seen examples of comic and grave responsibility-shifting. Last week, we heard from the Infrastructure Minister about how he could not install a few bollards in Hill Street, one of the most important thoroughfares in our hospitality district in the middle of Belfast, because of austerity. Austerity is a grave and profound challenge for this place, for the Executive and for these islands, but austerity is not to blame for his not being able to install a few bollards in the Cathedral Quarter. That is pathetic, and it is drivel for the Minister simply to shift blame in that way. <BR /> <BR />We have also seen Executive party after Executive party table motions about delivery when their Ministers are the ones responsible for the specific areas of delivery.”
“I reflect on the important question of accountability and responsibility-taking in this place. It is a theme on which I have reflected on many occasions since we took up our role in opposition, and it is getting more and more important. There are more and more examples of Ministers and Executive parties seeking to shift blame and responsibility and not to take accountability for decisions that they have taken or could take. It matters, because all of us stand for election to this place and take the Pledge of Office. I welcome the new Member, Ms Armstrong, who took the Pledge of Office today. We all sign the Pledge of Office and join the Assembly as an act of responsibility to the constituents whom we serve and to Northern Ireland at large.”
“I ask the Minister to pass on to his ministerial colleagues the urgency and necessity of placing Harland and Wolff as a particular manufacturing hub, right in the middle of those plans and ideas.”
“Minister, thank you for giving us this update today. I echo what others have said about the importance of trade unions. Trade unions are always important to the successful operation of, in particular, a manufacturing business, but that was especially so in this case; they really kept Harland and Wolff going in the most difficult times. <BR /> <BR />As well as some of the contracts that Dr Aiken talked about, Harland and Wolff has the opportunity to be right at the nexus of key things that are happening in not just the regional economy but the world economy, such as green growth, which we will debate later today, and the manufacturing and maintenance of, for example, turbines, and also our dual market access.”
“Minister, I appreciate the answer, and I am glad that you are taking action in the area, albeit you did not quite touch on the contradiction between the two policies. <BR /> <BR />I will ask a related question on the Programme for Government. You talked earlier about the importance of tackling educational underachievement, and you specifically mentioned working-class Protestant boys. Why is there not a specific target or intervention for addressing educational underachievement in the Programme for Government?”
“Earlier this year, £150 million in capital spending was withdrawn from the integrated schools to which it had been promised under the Fresh Start Agreement. I welcome the fact that money was allocated to Millennium Integrated Primary School in my constituency — that project was able to proceed — but has the Minister had any further contact with those schools, and is the Department making any plans to make good on the promises that were made to them?”
“I sympathise with some of what the Member says, but I think that he will acknowledge that some of the Bills that he spoke about made it on to the statute book because they were introduced at a time at which there was a realistic prospect of doing so. As leader of the Opposition, I want the Executive to introduce legislation for us to debate and scrutinise. That is their job, and they have the resources to do so. We have to be realistic, however, and say that Bills that are introduced a few months before the end of the mandate will not pass. It is a bit disingenuous for us to pretend that they will.”
“Minister, in your answer to my colleague Patsy McGlone, you said that the language Act had not come up in discussion, but, obviously, when the Irish language and Ulster-Scots commissioners are appointed, they will have to work on a cross-border basis because the languages and sectoral bodies are cross-border. Please, can you give us an update as to when those commissioners will be appointed? We have been talking about this for years now. When will they be appointed?”
“Walking down Botanic Avenue on Sunday, I nearly had to put on sun cream. It was not quite as sunny as it had been in Ormeau Park the week before, but it reminded me of the wonderful, shared community that is South Belfast. As I said, we had the Belfast Bands Forum there, the Anaka Women's Collective and representatives from right across the community. It was an inspiring and wonderful day and a reminder of what is the best of South Belfast and, indeed, the best of Belfast as a city.”
“We saw the Anaka Women's Collective, samba bands and flamenco bands. We also saw flute bands. The Pride of Lagan Valley and the Finaghy True Blues were there representing the Belfast Bands Forum. We had Friends of the Field, which does wonderful conservation work beside Botanic Gardens. The event really gave a beautiful and inspiring insight into the diversity of South Belfast and how the plurality of the constituency and place works so well together. <BR /> <BR />It was a glorious, cross-community, family day. It was diverse, and, yes, it was sunny. There was great food on offer and great experiences to be had. That is so important to me, because I am very proud to represent the constituency. I am also proud to live in the community and to work just around the corner on University Street.”
“Last week, I paid tribute to a wonderful community event in South Belfast, and I am delighted to say that I am able to do so again. This past weekend, on Sunday, there was an event on Botanic Avenue — just around the corner from my constituency office — called Open Botanic. Just over a month ago, we saw horrible, appalling and shaming scenes on Botanic Avenue and in that part of inner South Belfast. Those scenes do not represent the people of South Belfast, nor do they represent any of the communities that call South Belfast home. On Sunday past, however, we saw South Belfast's true diversity. <BR /> <BR />Botanic Avenue was closed to traffic, and it was, amazingly, another gloriously sunny day, just as we had had for the events in Ormeau Park and in Finaghy a week or two before. On Botanic Avenue, we witnessed a huge range of diversity.”
“I hope that, when we finally get recommendations from the Competition and Markets Authority, there is a proactive plan to deal with this. I also hope that we are serious and ambitious about properly supporting live music venues and grassroots music, because, as Sian Mulholland rightly said, you cannot, for ever and a day, separate huge mega concerts and internationally renowned artists from the grassroots music scene; at some point, once that relationship breaks down, there will not be a pipeline. If you make it impossible for ordinary, working people and young people to go to those gigs, you will make it impossible to maintain that healthy pipeline.”
“I hope that, when the reports come back, the Minister for the Economy will be ready to produce 'The Masterplan' — that is for Members who are into Oasis B-sides — for how to deal with the challenge. We attempted to amend the motion to say that. It is a serious issue, and we cannot simply pass motions asking for other bodies to do things without fronting up and dealing with it, where our Ministers and Departments have responsibilities. It is true to say that, given that none of the Oasis concerts will be in Northern Ireland, there is a limited amount that the Minister in question could have done. Ultimately, however, I would like to hear what the Department and the Minister intend to do. <BR /> <BR />'Don't Look Back in Anger' will be my approach to that, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“The other factor in that is the funding of the arts here, which is abysmal. We would have liked to see in the Programme for Government an aspiration to increase our per capita arts funding, which is extraordinarily poor, including for the live music scene. <BR /> <BR />We support the broad thrust of the motion, although 'Some Might Say' that it could and, perhaps, should have called specifically on the Minister responsible, who is the Minister for the Economy, to do something about it. It mentions the Consumer Council, which is an arm's-length body of the Department for the Economy, and the Competition and Markets Authority, which is the regulatory authority in London.”
“I will not get into economic theory one way or the other, but, obviously, there is no such thing as a perfectly free market. It is also true to say, however, that, when it comes to the laws of supply and demand and a ticket to see a band that has not played in a long time — there is no other Oasis; they have not played together in 15 years, and theirs is a particular product with a very particular value — the inherent value is based on the connection that fans have with that band. That is why the current situation is so grotesque and frustrating for ordinary people. <BR /> <BR />We also need to think about the pipeline of new talent. If we do not support grassroots music and working people cannot afford to go to concerts, those people will not pick up a guitar or start to learn the keyboard and will not create live music in the future.”
“Part of the reason why there is such a huge and disproportionate commercial emphasis on artists' live mega concerts and the extraordinary cost of them is that recorded music has effectively become so poorly paid and valueless because of digitisation, the internet and everything else. There is a huge and disproportionate burden on raising revenue and making money from concerts. That means that ordinary, working people are faced with completely unacceptable, extraordinary costs, which is particularly sad, given that Oasis is proudly a working-class band and that many of its fans are ordinary, working people who are now faced with the appalling situation of going to the end of the queue and getting an extraordinary and grotesque number. <BR /> <BR />People have talked about the laws of market economics.”
“I was number 400,000 or something — it was not 400,000, but whatever it was — while my other geriatric millennial dad friends and I were trying in our WhatsApp group to figure out whether there was any chance of getting to Dublin, whether Oasis would announce a second concert or whether we could go to London. I give that naff little anecdote to show that, clearly, lots of people experienced that issue and lots of our constituents were frustrated by it. <BR /> <BR />I want to touch on something that Sian Mulholland said. She has real professional experience in this area.”
“I will make do. <BR /> <BR />Obviously, we will support the motion. I, along with many hundreds of thousands — millions — of other geriatric millennials and Gen X people, attempted to get Oasis tickets a few weeks ago. I was one of the people who, while doing childcare not very well — I was neither doing the childcare very well nor securing tickets very well — was pathetically refreshing the screen on the Ticketmaster website, to be told that I was number gazillion in the queue. I did not even get to the point of being quoted some extortionate sum of money.”
“A good few of my music puns have been taken away, but I will have to 'Roll With It'”
“— there is one way to rejoin the EU, and that debate is for another day.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have to have alignment across this island. Whether you are the biggest unionist, the biggest nationalist or the biggest pro-European Remainer, it is impracticable otherwise. We simply cannot have it. There are cattle that graze in both Fermanagh and Monaghan. Whether you like it or not, there are, so we cannot operate separate standards. The way in which we need to address that is through greater alignment between the UK and the EU. I hope that, in addition to some of the actions that are outlined in the motion being taken, we will start to see people properly get behind closer alignment between the UK and the EU. Of course, the best possible alignment of all is rejoining the EU. I do not think that that is going to happen, but —”
“It would be a huge step forward were the UK to agree an ambitious sanitary and phytosanitary agreement and a veterinary agreement with the EU. I presume that she would like to see that because it would radically minimise the barriers that exist between GB and NI as there would be much less disruption. <BR /> <BR />We need that because it would be impossible to have separate SPS arrangements on the island of Ireland. No serious person who is involved in agri-food thinks that you could operate two different SPS standards on this island. It is impossible, and I am happy to give way to a single MLA who wishes to stand up and tell me how you can operate two different standards for livestock or plant goods on this island, because there is not one. No one, since 2016, has ever produced a credible example.”
“It is often said that there are new barriers to trade across the Irish Sea — there are some; I wish that that had not happened — but it is also true to say that people who trade in services across the island of Ireland have seen new barriers and new disruptions. There are new regulatory divergences in the present and, potentially, in the future. I would have liked to see those reflected in the motion. <BR /> <BR />The motion specifically talks about a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement. I would have liked to see the motion be slightly more specific in calling for the new UK Government to be ambitious in negotiating a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement with the EU. I can see the former Economy Minister. I am happy to give way if she wants to correct me, or, perhaps, she does not agree with me.”
“<BR /> <BR />To come to the point about GB/NI trade, it is important to say a few things. First, it is not a churlish or facetious thing to say that the process of what is called hard Brexit — ie the UK leaving the single market and customs union — is, by pretty much any standard, the single biggest erection of trade barriers that any modern state has inflicted upon itself. That is the starting point. There is no example since the Second World War — none that I am aware of — of any major economy deciding to effectively impose a form of low-level or quite high-level economic sanctions upon itself, so there will be consequences. The movement of goods will become more difficult. It is also true that the movement of not just goods but services and, indeed, in many ways, unfortunately, possibly people has become more difficult on this island.”
“— we have a Northern Ireland Assembly, here and sitting, in which people who are elected to speak for the workers, people and businesses of this society can come to this Chamber and talk about issues facing businesses. Those issues include disruptions to trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We were not able to do any of that for nearly two years after the 2022 Assembly election. It just goes to show that, if you stand for election, believe in devolution and want to use your mandate, the place to do it is in this Chamber. Collapsing the devolved Government will not help anyone. That point has to be made again and again. I know that it is probably not comfortable for Members across the Chamber to hear that, including Members who very enthusiastically advocated Brexit, but it is true.”
“There are a few specific points that I want to make, some of which have been covered by Members who spoke previously. I share some of Declan Kearney's insight into the motion. I agree with some of the thrust of the motion, but it is strikingly absent in a few key areas. Nevertheless, in the spirit of goodwill and a collective spirit of making representations and trying to get the best possible outcomes for all our businesses, we will not be dividing on it. I hope that some of the things that are aspired to in the motion are acted upon. <BR /> <BR />I will make the point that we are able to debate this motion. We are able to allow it to go through, presumably without a Division, because — shock horror!”
“I have spent many minutes, perhaps even hours, on my feet in the Assembly Chamber talking about Brexit, and our post-Brexit arrangements, in many ways, is what brought me into politics in the first place.”
“No doubt, I will have the opportunity to take interventions during my speech. I do not intend to speak for all that long.”
“Minister, I welcome your clarity on the safety of the drinking water and your commitment to the Lough Neagh action plan, but there is, with the greatest respect to the Minister involved, a lot of inaction in the action plan. There is not a huge amount of clear legislative or financial commitment. You said that there was independent assurance about the water, but the truth is that we do not have independent assurance, because we do not have an environmental protection agency. Will you join the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Minister to do all that you can to ensure that that one deliverable thing is included in an updated Programme for Government?”
“Minister, if I understand the answer that you have just given, the issue was not raised, because I think that you would have told me specifically if it had been raised at Thursday's meeting. If it was not raised at Thursday's meeting, were you or your officials made aware at any point before Thursday of the decision that the UK Government were going to announce on Friday? Could you confirm that the issue was not raised on Thursday?”