Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“The Committee welcomes the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill. Such Bills come along once in a while, but we have not had one here for more than a decade. For that reason, this is a more substantial one than most. The Committee sees the proposed new date of 27 March 2026 to end the Committee Stage as a limit rather than a target, as we did with the Fiscal Council Bill. We aim to complete our report on the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill without any undue delay prior to that date.”
“Rather than seeking any further extension, I do not expect or want to come anywhere near the Chamber again to do anything but debate amendments. We commend the motion to the House and seek Members' approval.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that the Committee will be scrutinising simultaneously the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill, so, by requesting that the Assembly support the extension, the Committee is asking that Members give the Committee the flexibility that we need to discharge our statutory scrutiny role with respect to the Bill. At its meeting on 17 September, the Committee agreed the motion to extend the Committee Stage along with a revised Committee timetable. We believe that the extension is necessary in order to give the Bill the time and scrutiny that it deserves, but I underline that, in my role as Committee Chair, I am strongly of the view that it is a limit, not a target.”
“The calculation of a Bill's scrutiny timetable generally includes an eight-week call for evidence with, hopefully, written submissions and survey responses being received and a number of in-person evidence sessions at Committee meetings. Sufficient time needs to be built into the timetable, particularly given issues that may arise in oral evidence that require further investigation. As well as thorough consideration of the Bill, the other business of the Committee needs to be progressed in a timely manner.”
“That represents a certain risk, as the Committee must have scope to consider responses to the call for evidence, and there may be a need to call further witnesses. <BR /> <BR />Additionally, to allow the Committee to deal with any issues raised, the extension to the Committee Stage must recognise the Halloween and Christmas recesses. It is also important to reflect the Committee's wider work programme, which includes, we hope, scrutiny of the first multi-year Budget in a decade and supporting other Committees in their scrutiny of the five-year business plans; the Administrative and Financial Provisions Bill, which we will talk about next; an inquiry into Civil Service reform; and several other bits of pressing scrutiny.”
“The council had its third or fourth — I do not know which — annual conference the week before last. I encourage any Members who want to attend one of those conferences to get in touch. There will not be another one for some time, obviously, but it is doing good work in communicating its work and its role. <BR /> <BR />As the policy consultation carried out by the Fiscal Council was extensive, no further consultation was carried out. It is imperative, therefore, that key stakeholders be approached to give evidence on the Bill. The stakeholders are time-constrained individuals and organisations, so the Committee must offer them a level of flexibility in giving evidence and appearing in front of it.”
“Without an extension to the Committee Stage of the Fiscal Council Bill, the last day of Committee Stage will be Tuesday 7 October. That is next Tuesday, when the Committee would be required to lay its report on the Bill. To meet that deadline, the Committee would be likely to have to forgo the appropriate level of scrutiny of the Bill, which may well result in the Committee receiving criticism for not sufficiently scrutinising the Bill. <BR /> <BR />On the establishment of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council in 2021, its chair and members developed a communications and engagement plan to clearly articulate the remit of the Fiscal Council and engage with relevant stakeholders, including through consultations with the Minister of Finance, the Finance Committee, other Members of the Assembly, government officials and economic commentators.”
“The Bill was introduced to the Assembly on 23 June 2025. It completed Second Stage on Tuesday 1 July, with the Committee Stage beginning the day after, on Wednesday 2 July, immediately prior to the summer recess. <BR /> <BR />As Members are aware, Standing Order 33(2) states:”
“The Committee welcomes the fact that the Bill has been published, as we did when it was introduced and at Second Stage. In tabling the motion, the Committee sees the new date of 27 March 2026 as a limit rather than a target, and I underline that point for both Bills that we will discuss. I am keen for the Committee not only to do its scrutiny rigorously and to have the time to do that but to do it expeditiously. The Committee aims to complete its report on the Bill without any undue delay prior to that date. <BR /> <BR />I will not set out the provisions of the Bill, beyond noting that the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council was established on a non-statutory basis in March 2021 as part of the New Decade, New Approach agreement. The rationale behind the council is that it:”
“I want to ask about delivering on promises made. Have there been actual, practical conversations with the Finance Minister about the multi-year Budget that we expect later this year? Will what he has called for be backed up in a multi-year Budget? That is his responsibility too.”
“He cannot be definitive in his denial. I will infer from his statement that some tool was used, but I will leave the matter to one side.”
“Since we are here — I was not going to raise the subject — I will not retract or apologise. My job is to ask the Minister questions. I make zero apology for that. The Minister is more than capable of coming in here to defend himself. With the indulgence of the Deputy Speaker, since the Minister raised the issue, I asked a question for written answer, which stated:”
“— that he will actually increase investment?”
“— in water. Have you had any indication —”
“Minister, I admire your optimism when it comes to taking politics out of this. We are politicians. The public elect us to take decisions and hold one another to account. Given that both Sinn Féin and the DUP have, at different times, effectively opposed the core plank of the Lough Neagh improvement and, therefore, opposed improving our water in general, have you had any specific indication from either the Finance Minister or the Infrastructure Minister that they have any plan to coherently increase investment in NI Water over the next number of years? I have not heard anything. In fact, when it comes to the now Finance Minister, who was previously Infrastructure Minister, I heard opposition when he was asked whether he would increase investment —”
“<BR /> <BR />We had a terrific weekend of sport on the island of Ireland, with Shane Lowry and Rory McIlroy bringing home the Ryder Cup for Europe; the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Minnesota Vikings showing us their wares in Croke Park; and, most importantly, two teams from my constituency — Bredagh and Carryduff — producing a terrific display while competing for the Down Ladies' Senior Championship. The latter is huge testimony to the growth of Gaelic games in the constituency and Belfast generally. We are very proud of them. The winners on this occasion were Bredagh, but it is very clear that we have great and growing teams from across the constituency. I am delighted to see it.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, the really big sporting event that happened on this island at the weekend was, of course, the Down Ladies' Senior Championship final at Páirc Esler in Newry. It was contested between two terrific teams from my constituency: Bredagh and Carryduff. Those two teams are a remarkable reflection of the growth of Gaelic games and the huge growth of women's Gaelic games, particularly in the county of Down. Many of the people on both panels were on the Down ladies' panel that won the All-Ireland just a couple of years ago.”
“Trivialising and minimising what was done to the free press is not the way forward in debating these things. <BR /> <BR />What I want to talk about this afternoon is a terrific weekend for Irish sport. People will have seen what happened at Bethpage State Park Golf Course in New York, where once again, an Irishman — this time Shane Lowry, following in the footsteps of Darren Clarke, Philip Walton and Eamonn Darcy — closed out and secured victory for Europe. I am sure that even the Members from the DUP and TUV were pleased to see Europe win that match. <BR /> <BR />We also saw, for the very first time, an NFL game happen in "Croker" — Croke Park — in which the Pittsburgh Steelers were victorious. The Steelers owners have their roots in Newry, County Down.”
“Before I get into the meat of my remarks, I reflect on the sad passing of a young man named Oisín Johnston, who was just 18 years of age. He died very suddenly in heartbreaking circumstances. He was the son of Denise Johnston, a councillor of ours in Mid Ulster District Council. The funeral was yesterday. It was extraordinarily sad. It was attended by people from across that community. I know that the family is very appreciative of the words of consolation and condolence that it has received from across politics and society. It reminds us all of the preciousness of life and the very serious issues around young people, their mental health and minding them. It is an extremely sad time for that family. <BR /> <BR />I will come on to talk about sport, but some of what Mr Burrows said about the McCullough findings was quite remarkable.”
“Lead. I went on the Executive Office website this morning, and there is nothing on there other than waffle and photo opportunities. The Executive parties, rather than coming in here and picking fights with one another, should do their jobs. They take their salaries and they take their ministerial cars. Do your jobs, work together for the people of Northern Ireland and do not just come in here and throw around bickering waffle.”
“Stop chuntering. You have had your say. <BR /> <BR />The public of Northern Ireland watching this might wonder, "We have a devolved government here. What is their position?" It has consistently been the case that, when Northern Ireland's interests are at stake, even if for different reasons — we know that our party disagrees with this for a different reason than the DUP — we oppose it. The Executive parties all oppose it. So do not come into the Chamber and stand up and say, for different reasons and facing different directions, that we all oppose it. Do your jobs.”
“We all agree that it is a bad idea. All the Executive parties agree that it is a bad idea.”
“Not just the four Executive parties and the Opposition but the TUV and People Before Profit all agree it is a bad idea.”
“I will be very brief. I will make two quick points. First, the ID card policy is completely misguided. As others have said, it is not necessary, because in-work checks already exist. It is completely misguided because of the conditions on this island, with the cross-border life that people already lead and the all-island economy that we hope to build. It is wrong-headed, it is impractical, and it is completely misguided. Claire Hanna and Colum Eastwood will take their seats, and they will argue against it. They will oppose it in general, and, if it is to be applied in Britain, they will call for Northern Ireland to be exempted. Let us be absolutely clear about that. <BR /> <BR />I asked to speak because we have in the Assembly today something that we do not have very often: complete unanimity.”
“Further to the previous question, I welcome the fact that we have so many terrific marching bands from all backgrounds. I hope that the fund is inclusive. Will the Minister make any specific effort to ensure that those bands are encouraged to participate and proactively get involved with the Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann, which is coming to Belfast next year?”
“The Member has just misquoted me. I said nothing about innocent victims not moving on and that being a form of poison. That is a direct and offensive misquote. I acknowledge the seriousness with which the Member takes the issue, but that is not what I said. Dealing with innocent victims and giving them justice is not the same as —. The whole point is to create a process that allows them to have truth and justice. That is how we remove the poison from the future.”
“— stops clarity coming from the organisations that were responsible for the conflict.”
“I do not want to prejudice that trial, but we know that innocent people were mown down on the streets of Derry. A British Prime Minister stood up in the House of Commons and apologised for it, but people still see fit to turn up to a courthouse to somehow undermine the idea of justice for those who seek it over Bloody Sunday. <BR /> <BR />In all those things, we need to be serious, but I fear that there is no seriousness in the Chamber today. I fear that there is a constant desire, 30 years on from the first ceasefires, to rub one another's nose in it. Nothing in a legal framework —”
“That is certainly true. The Brown family has behaved with extraordinary dignity and has been thwarted completely indefensibly at every turn. <BR /> <BR />Let me say this: we will not be found wanting in our responsibility to challenge, where necessary, the Irish Government, and we are robust in challenging the British Government. We will test the new proposals, doing our job in the Chamber, at Westminster and everywhere else and speaking up for the values that we want to see. We want to see a reconciled society. I worry about the trivialisation of violence. I am worried about the minimisation and glamourisation of everything that happened. I worry about people minimising and glamourising the IRA campaign and about people turning up outside a courthouse wearing a Parachute Regiment beret when a man is on trial.”
“Yes, I will take a very brief intervention.”
“<BR /> <BR />Bridie Brown is 87 years of age. She wants to achieve in her final years some level of truth and justice for her family. The British state is preventing her from getting that, because it will not disclose information that is germane to the murder of her husband. Those are clear facts. Just as we stand with the Omagh families, with the victims of Kingsmills, with Bridie Brown and her family and with the families of all the victims of our conflict, we will always call for a system that does right by all those people. That will be our approach, and it is the approach that we have always followed, as we deal with the new legacy proposals.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have been clear, and we were so earlier in this year, when we had the debate on their role, that the Irish Government needed to do more to assure and do right by the victims of the Omagh bombing. As a nationalist party that believes in a new Ireland, we have never had any difficulty with saying that. We have always stood by the Omagh victims, and we stand by all those who need more information from the Irish Government about incidents that happened during the Troubles. We make no bones about that. We have also been clear in calling out what happened and in standing with victims, not just those of state-sponsored collusion by Britain but those who are unable to access justice because the British state continues to hide information from them, and it is hiding information from them.”
“Our party has a consistent record of opposing amnesties. I do not want the debate to be about political point-scoring, but I am clear about where my party has always stood on violence in this society, be it republican, loyalist or state violence. All three happened. Parties on all sides of the Chamber remain in denial about the violence from republicans, loyalists or the state, or, indeed, from the state in collusion with loyalists or through the state controlling senior republicans. We have no issue with being clear about our position. We have no problems with our record, and I do not want this to be about party political point-scoring.”
“I will give way in one second. <BR /> <BR />The proposals that have come from the UK and Irish Governments are as yet scant in detail. There has been progress made in some areas, but there are real concerns that need to be addressed, and I hope that they will be, in part through legislation and engagement with victims and survivors first and then with political parties. I have to say, however, based on the quality of debate in the Chamber, that some will wonder how productive that engagement will be. Legislation will come forward in Westminster, and it is right that there are parties that will actually be in the Chamber there to amend that legislation where necessary. <BR /> <BR />I will continue with my points, but I will give way now for the purposes of debate.”
“It has been said before but needs to be said again, and as often as possible, that the people who matter most in this discussion are not those in the Chamber but those who are victims of the Troubles, as well as their families. In everything that we say and do, we must think about them. We also have a responsibility to the society in which we live. Young people today and future generations will take on the leadership of this society in years to come. We have a responsibility to them not to pass on the poison of our conflict but, rather, to do as much as we possibly can to create a healthy and reconciled society. We are clearly failing at that task thus far. <BR /> <BR />The amnesty proposals that the previous Tory Government put forward marked a nadir in the post-conflict period. The proposals —.”
“I appreciate the important point that the Minister makes. Some Bills could be more concise. On that note, while we are here, does the Minister agree with my party that we need to shorten some of the business deadlines, including those for Opposition and non-Executive business? That is an important issue.”
“I am pleased that the Member gave way. Further to his comment about the psychology of deterrence, does he agree that there is a deterrent effect for the people who are committing hate crimes, or those who are reporting hate crimes, when they see that the people who are coordinating them, or who are connected to the people who are coordinating them, are the type of people who are the leading paramilitaries or the paramilitary stakeholder in that area? Does he agree that that has a deterrent effect on both the people who report and the people who commit such crimes?”
“Until we are willing to confront that, to mandate the police to confront it, to retool the tackling paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime programme and to change the criminal justice incentives to properly tackle that, we are not going to get anywhere. <BR /> <BR />In moving the motion, I urge all in the Chamber to finally get real about hate crime, to take our responsibilities seriously and not just to engage in warm words and rhetoric but to back that up with resourcing for the police and the criminal justice system, more broadly, with clarity on hate crime legislation and with every word and deed that is needed to tackle the upsurge of hate in our society.”
“We know that paramilitary hate crime is barely even recorded by the PSNI in this jurisdiction. We know that, in some places, including parts of north Belfast, the UDA, for example, sees itself as some kind of de facto, quasi- or crypto housing association. Those people arrogate to themselves the right to say who does and does not live in an area. Therefore, while we need to see hate crime legislation and more resource for the PSNI, we need to be grown up in this society about acknowledging the fact that paramilitaries continue to wield a pernicious and unacceptable power. They want to be able to say who lives in a community and who does not. Clearly, when it suits them, they coordinate racist violence on our streets.”
“First, I am not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, so if we can pass this legislation, yes, I welcome it. However, there are two things to consider. First, with regard to doing it expeditiously, we are now 18 months into this mandate — 18 months — and we have not seen a single word of hate crime provisions either in a stand-alone Bill or as part of another Bill. I would challenge the idea that it has been expedited. It is also worth saying that it was in the Alliance Party's manifesto that there would be a stand-alone hate crime Bill. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, there is the challenge of paramilitarism. We know that paramilitaries have played a part in a considerable number of the hate crime that we have seen on the streets of Northern Ireland.”
“We have yet to see the full implementation, or even the near-full implementation, of Judge Marrinan's recommendations. We know that we are not going to get stand-alone hate crime legislation. That is not good enough. I acknowledge that the Justice Minister will say, I am sure today, that she intends to bring forward legislation in a staged way. We are now getting very close to being in a situation where we will be up against it, as it were, in delivering legislation. We have a sentencing Bill that we expect to get in the next year.”
“People are entitled to have a view about migration, for example, and about housing, but you instantly nullify the legitimacy of any political complaint when you engage in violence. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, we need to see clarity about an increase in resource for the parts of our criminal justice system that will, effectively, deal with and deter racist violence and lower-level hate crime on our streets. That involves, first, greater resources for the PSNI and an urgency in dealing with those issues. Secondly, it involves greater resources for the courts so that they can prioritise dealing with the issues. I hope that the Justice Minister will elaborate on some of that in her remarks. <BR /> <BR />There is also a longer-term challenge that we need to deal with. It has now been years since Judge Marrinan reported on hate crime legislation.”
“I am afraid that, as yet, we have not. <BR /> <BR />What to do about it? There are several things that should be done. The first test is, in a sense, the easiest to pass, and it is that there be a clear, consistent and unified response from political leadership on the unacceptability and immorality of hate crime in all its forms. Have we seen that? We have to an extent, but, for too many people, their opposition to the hate that we have seen on the streets of Belfast, Ballymena, Larne and elsewhere has been caveated — qualified — with words to the effect of, "Ah, but we have to ensure that legitimate concerns are heard". There are, of course, legitimate concerns about any number of political issues.”
“On 4 September, before we all returned to this place after the summer break, the Executive had a meeting. The First Minister, the deputy First Minister and other Ministers outlined the actions that they would take as a result of that meeting. A statement was published on the Executive Office's website, and there was a press conference. The statement said that the Executive wanted to "move forward together" on hate crime and tackling hate. Those are the warmest of warm words, but they needed to be followed up with clear action. They were not, and they have not been thus far. The clarity from the Executive has, frankly, been lacking and pathetic. In recent weeks and since then, we have seen an attempted lynching on the streets of Belfast in the Justice Minister's own constituency. Have we seen a decisive response?”
“Our motion is clear about the different ways in which they have failed and been inadequate.”
“Since their return, the Executive have failed to deal with that hate crime as effectively and comprehensively as they should have.”
“That is because, this summer past and the previous summer, we have seen an unacceptable spike in hate. <BR /> <BR />Those are not isolated incidents. Hate crime has been rising in Northern Ireland in a shocking way; in fact, race hate crime now exceeds sectarian hate crime in Northern Ireland. In many ways, our politics and our society have been defined by the historical division in religion or, if you prefer, constitutional preference in this place. Sadly, that division still exists, although it is, in some ways, getting better. Hate crime against people who are not from these shores, however, now outranks or exceeds sectarian hate crime. <BR /> <BR />Our motion is clear. There has been a significant upsurge in hate crime since the Executive returned last February.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are two extraordinary and, you might say, world-leading institutions on my constituency office doorstep, one of which is literally a stone's throw from its front door. They are Queen's University Belfast and the City Hospital. Neither of those institutions could function or thrive without the contribution of migrants. That is a fact. People from all over the world come to Queen's University and the City Hospital to study, educate, research and heal and to make our society better and healthier. I thank them for their contribution and pay tribute to everything that they offer us. I want our society to welcome more people like them. The problem is that, at this time, it is difficult to tell them with complete sincerity that they will receive as open a welcome as they should.”
“It has brought huge benefits to our society. I say that as someone who represents what is not just the most diverse constituency in the North of Ireland but, I think, the most diverse constituency on the island of Ireland. My constituency office is situated on University Street and is open to the public in South Belfast, specifically the public in that area. They can seek my help with housing, healthcare or any other issue on which they may need assistance with statutory authorities. The area is very diverse. It has people from all over the world. Those people are not here simply — as some, including, I am afraid, some in the Chamber, would occasionally like to depict them — as a burden or as entrants to this society for their own benefit; they add extraordinary benefit to the community, the city and the whole region.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. In moving the second motion on the first Opposition day following the Assembly's return from summer recess, I am mindful of the victims of hate crime over the summer in Northern Ireland. I am mindful of all those who still live in fear because of the upsurge in hate that we have seen in our society. I want those people to be at the centre of the debate, because the truth is that, as we have set out in the motion, we have failed them. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland and, indeed, the island of Ireland are markedly more diverse places than they were when I was a younger man. When I was growing up, the region was overwhelmingly mono-ethnic. It was made up of people who were born in Northern Ireland itself, in Ireland or in Britain. Clearly, that has changed. Let me be the first to say that I welcome that change.”