Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“I am pleased to open another Opposition day of business here in the Northern Ireland Assembly. We made a deliberate choice when we drafted today's motions to be pointed, concise and specific. You will have noticed that, Mr Speaker, when the motions came to you and your Clerks advised you on the contents of those motions and the suggested amendments. All too often, since we have come back here, we have had long, saggy, waffly motions, particularly from Executive parties, with unclear actions, get-out clauses, convoluted promises and vague commitments being offered by those parties. They have been amended. Sometimes, Ministers have said that they will deliver. Sometimes, they have tried to wriggle out of being clear.”
“I acknowledge the Minister's update for the Assembly, brief and factual as it is. Given what we hope is somewhat of an improvement in UK-EU relations in making progress towards some kind of an improved set of arrangements, including for sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) controls, which would be helpful for this place, has he made any representations about a potential extension of PEACE PLUS, with a next generation project to run beyond 2027? Has he had specific contact with the UK Government, the EU or, indeed, his counterparts in Dublin to advocate and start to develop such a plan?”
“Minister, I wonder whether you discussed at the meeting or have had any engagement on the cross-border education issue that cuts across your Department and the Economy Department of the high points that are required for Northern students who are doing A levels and AS levels to get into Southern institutions. Some progress has been made on the issue, but what conversations have you had? It is in everyone’s interest that it is as easy as possible for Northern Irish students to go to university south of the border or across the water. We want to keep as many students as possible here. Some of those changes are coming in in September. Are you and your Department monitoring that and working with your counterparts, south of the border and in the Economy Department, to ensure that progress is made?”
“Will you confirm that it has not been agreed at the Executive?”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Minister, we are obviously a party of the left. We believe in workers' rights, and we strongly welcome many of these proposals. We are decades overdue an employment rights Bill in this place to improve workers' rights. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, however: none of this has even been discussed at the Executive, let alone a Bill agreed. Is there not a degree of deception, frankly, in introducing all these potential rights and telling workers that they will be legislated for, when, unless I am wrong, you do not even have a date for when it will be discussed at the Executive, let alone for when legislation will be introduced by the Assembly?”
“— consistently and robustly by a constructive Opposition. Thank you, Mr Speaker.”
“It is mugging people off, and it will be called out —”
“— on arts projects or on pedestrianising Hill Street and then swan off on five-star trips. That is gaslighting the public.”
“I do not know about your constituents, Mr Speaker, or the First Minister's — I know that the First Minister has previous in not seeing things that are right in front of her — but I have never met an individual anywhere who did not know that they were staying in a five-star hotel. <BR /> <BR />It is absurd. It is taking the public for mugs. Do not blame austerity for not delivering small projects. Do not tell your constituents and the people of Northern Ireland that you cannot spend tuppence ha'penny —”
“I wish that the Communities Minister and the former Economy Minister would do likewise. <BR /> <BR />Earlier today, when I asked the First Minister whether she had stayed in a five-star hotel, I was shocked to hear that she did not know.”
“Little did I think that, 20 years on, a Sinn Féin Minister would stay in the lap of luxury at a cost of £4000. However. it is not just Sinn Féin Ministers. Gordon Lyons, the Communities Minister, who is primarily responsible for welfare, housing and so on in Northern Ireland, has been on two or three trips to North America. He stayed at the five-star Dupont Circle Hotel in Washington DC. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that Ministers should not travel or that they should stay in flea-ridden hotels or backpackers hostels when they do. To be fair to the Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Minister, Mr Muir, when he went to New York and Brussels, he stayed in reasonable three- and four-star business accommodation. That is not an unacceptable thing to do, and I recognise that he has done that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, colour me shocked to read that Ministers from the Executive have spent tens of thousands of pounds staying in five-star hotels. One single stay by former Sinn Féin Economy Minister Conor Murphy — he is now in the Seanad and was previously Finance Minister — at the Willard Hotel in Washington DC, a five-star hotel described on its website as the "Residence of Presidents", cost £6,000. That would have paid for the pedestrianisation of Hill Street, but that is not the only five-star stay that Conor Murphy undertook while he was the Economy Minister. He stayed at the Hotel Luc in Berlin and the Fullerton Hotel in Singapore. When I was backpacking 20 years ago, I stayed in a hostel in Little India. I could not afford to stay in the Fullerton Hotel; I walked past it.”
“Mr Speaker, since the Assembly's return last February, you have been in the Chair for much of that time, and I have been in the Chamber probably more than most Members, and we have repeatedly heard Ministers from all parties talk about the financial and fiscal constraints that the Executive face, and they do. As a constructive Opposition, we have consistently acknowledged those real constraints. At times, austerity and a lack of funds have been used as an excuse to justify not delivering even the smallest and seemingly most straightforward and trivial projects. Mr Brett and others have called out the preposterous situation where the Infrastructure Minister blamed austerity for not delivering the pedestrianisation of Hill Street in the Cathedral Quarter at a cost of just a few thousand pounds.”
“Minister, I am afraid that you are pursuing a straw man argument. You have said that you do not want water charges rather than explain what you will do about water infrastructure in the North. I do not want water charges and nor does my party, but Lough Neagh is turning into an open-air cesspool, we cannot build affordable houses and business is being held back from developing. All those things will continue to be the case, and get worse, if we do not have some form of solution. You do not appear to have one, so can you tell us how we can invest in our water infrastructure if you have ruled everything off the table?”
“It cost more than £6,000 for him to stay there, which is much more than the cost of pedestrianising Hill Street. <BR /> <BR />We all agree that austerity was bad, First Minister, but I asked you specific questions. Are you comfortable with your ministerial colleagues staying in five-star hotels? Have you stayed in a five-star hotel at taxpayer expense since you have been in your role? It is quite a straightforward question.”
“You may not seek it out, First Minister, but you know that your colleague Conor Murphy, who is a former Economy Minister and Finance Minister, stayed in the Fullerton Hotel in Singapore, which says on its website that it reflects:”
“First Minister, you mentioned the reform and transformation unit. We have not heard that much about the detail of its working. Has it been set up? When will the House have a detailed update on its work?”
“— we can debate them in a more level-headed, humane and serious way than we have today.”
“OK, but there are trans people who will be anxious about what this judgement means for them, and to those people I say this: I acknowledge that this is a difficult time. You have rights, which will be protected. I and others in my party will continue to acknowledge you as human beings who are deserving of basic courtesy, rights and respect. That has to be at the forefront of everything that we do. <BR /> <BR />By the way, no one has ever denied biological sex. Trans people have to confront the reality of biological sex in their lives, because that is how they transition, so that is an absurd canard thrown up by Members opposite. Where there are issues and questions about single-sex spaces, I hope that, in future —”
“Women in this society had to fight for a long time to secure access to basic rights, bodily autonomy and, specifically, court judgements.”
“Frankly, we need to move on from the idea of dehumanising and demeaning trans people as if they do not exist and their experience is somehow to be dismissed and trivialised. I and my party have always said that such subjects need to be talked about sensitively. Where there are specific and legitimate questions, whether they are on single-sex spaces or sports, we can have a serious debate, but I will not debate trans people's existence and their right to basic respect and dignity. Some of what we have heard today from the opposite Benches has, again, drifted into stigmatising and humiliating those people. It is somewhat ironic to hear Mr Buckley and others in his party portray themselves as great feminists and fighters for women's rights.”
“I say that first, but I also say this: the judgement does not render invisible or meaningless the lives and experiences of trans people. Trans people are real people. The Member opposite is shaking his head. It is really important —.”
“The Supreme Court's judgement has come after much controversy and debate on the subject, which has become tragically toxic and toxically divided. It has placed in toxic and false opposition the hard-fought rights of women, and, indeed, the continued fight for women's safety from violence, which is a subject that we have debated in the Chamber, against the rights of trans people to be acknowledged as human beings who are worthy of basic dignity, courtesy, respect and accommodation. Those two sets of rights do not have to be in competition with or opposition to one another. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge that the court judgement has been made and that there will be consequences on the other side of the Irish Sea. Public bodies here will scrutinise and examine that judgement.”
“<BR /> <BR />He is an extraordinary ambassador for this place — Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland — and we all owe him a debt of gratitude. We are all so proud of him and look forward to his, hopefully, lifting the Claret Jug this July at Royal Portrush. I should not have said that, because, in doing so, I have probably scuppered his chances, but we are delighted for and hugely proud of Rory McIlroy.”
“He then had more than a decade in which he did not win a major, which frustrated lots of golf fans, particularly those from this part of the world. For the average punter who plays at Holywood Golf Club, Downpatrick golf club, Belvoir Park Golf Club or Ormeau Golf Club — wherever the course is — golf has a particular ability to get inside the head. Whether you are world number one or someone who is playing in the monthly medal at your local club, doing what you need to do on the golf course requires reserves of resilience. Rory McIlroy came back from repeated setbacks, including some fairly traumatic ones, such as that at Augusta in 2011. He showed resilience, courage, determination and focus to become the first Irishman to win the Green Jacket and the first European to win the career Grand Slam: an extraordinary achievement.”
“The career Grand Slam is something that only a handful of people have achieved. Only one other person from outside the United States, Gary Player, has won the career Grand Slam. Rory McIlroy is not just the first Irishman or the first person from these islands to win the career Grand Slam but the first European to do so. It is an astonishing achievement, and he has done it by the age of 35. <BR /> <BR />What is so important, memorable and, frankly, inspiring about Rory's achievement is that he did it after coming back from repeated knocks. We all know that Rory won a series of majors very early in his professional career: he won the US Open, the British Open and the PGA Championship in quick succession.”
“I will briefly reflect on Rory McIlroy's extraordinary achievement, not that I could follow my colleague from Newry and Armagh's vivid contribution and, indeed, the contribution of the deputy First Minister, who talked about her golf game. I am sure that she could demonstrate her drive at Royal Portrush this year in a way that would be good for inward investment. <BR /> <BR />Rory McIlroy's achievement is extraordinary and historic. It is important to pause and reflect on the scale of achievement that winning the career Grand Slam is. I am one of those people who has tried to play golf, usually with limited success. It is a sport that I, like lots of people, have endeavoured to succeed at, but it is extraordinarily difficult to play at any level, let alone to do so and achieve what Rory McIlroy has achieved.”
“Francis was himself from an immigrant background, coming from an Italian family who had emigrated to Argentina, and he denounced the hypocrisy of those who claim to be Christian but turn away those fleeing war and persecution. In his final years, Francis devoted himself more and more to the cause of peace, and it has been well said already that Francis spoke movingly about peace in Ireland. In his final days, as his health was failing and even as visiting dignitaries were able to get only a few minutes, Pope Francis had a video call with children in Gaza to offer what must have been hope and comfort to those facing the most extreme suffering. His legacy is one of humility, service and the most profound service to Catholics and to people of all faiths and no faith around the world. May his soul rest in peace.”
“In his 'Evangelii Gaudium', which was an encyclical written in the first year of his papacy, he outlined what he saw as the commitments and the Church's responsibility in relation to social injustice. He told the faithful that, just as the commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill", Christians must also say, "Thou shalt not" to greed, inequality and exploitation. He practised what he preached. He rooted out inappropriate and immoral investments in the Vatican Bank, and he re-devoted the Church's attention to causes of charity, conservation and economic and social justice around the world. <BR /> <BR />He was also not afraid to confront the rise of political extremism, even when those expressing that extremism draped themselves in the banner of Christianity.”
“<BR /> <BR />The name that the media gave him upon his election as Pope was "The first Pope of the New World", and that role came to be more significant. It has already been mentioned that he was the first Pope from the southern hemisphere. He turned the Church's eyes away from simply the cathedrals of Europe and North America towards poorer communities in Central America, Africa and Asia. That influence can be seen in the coming conclave to select his successor. That commitment to the Global South, not just in a theological and ecclesiastical sense but in a policy sense, underwrote his commitment to tackling global poverty and climate change. Just as it was those who had been most distant from the Church to whom Francis offered the warmest welcome, it was those of wealth and power for whom he reserved often the sharpest criticism.”
“<BR /> <BR />It has already been mentioned that Pope Francis made a particular effort to reach out to communities who had previously been excluded from the Church, most notably, perhaps, the LGBT community. His words early in his papacy about gay people, when he said, "Who am I to judge?", set a new tone for the relationship between LGBT people and the Catholic Church. While it is fair to say that there is still a road to travel with those relations, his words were remarkably healing. He was the first Pope to allow priests to grant blessings to gay couples. He denounced discrimination against gay people, and he clarified that transgender men and women could stand as godparents during baptism.”
“<BR /> <BR />The first and most important example that Francis set was one of simplicity and humility. From the moment that he first stepped on to the balcony overlooking St Peter's Basilica, we saw something different from what we were used to seeing from Popes. There were fewer embroidered vestments and fewer crucifixes of gold and silver. There was a white garment, a plain cross and a humble wave to the crowd that he served. Foregoing many of the trappings of papacy, he remained a pastor at heart. His disdain for pomp and grandeur and anything that separated him from ordinary people, whether they were Catholics, Christians, those of other faiths or no faith, was plain to see. He travelled more than any Pope in history. He seemed to take real energy from meeting, engaging, laughing and connecting with people around the world.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker, for facilitating today's session. I offer my and my party's most sincere condolences on the passing of Pope Francis, who was a great man and a great leader but, more importantly, a humble man and a humble leader. He was deeply loved, and he will be missed across Ireland and the world by, first and foremost, members of the Catholic Church but also, as is evident today, by members of other faiths and, indeed, those of no faith. Those of us who are religious and those who are not saw in him someone who embodied, even if they are not Christian, the true nature of Christ. In a world where our culture has grown harsher and more hostile, Francis was a man who represented decency, humanity and gentleness. He was a voice for the voiceless at a time when voices of anger and exclusion have grown louder and louder.”
“With respect, First Minister, neither you nor the deputy First Minister is Advice NI. It is not your job simply to be articulate and to make cases; it is your job to lead. When thousands of people heard you, the deputy First Minister and the then Economy Minister say that compensation should be paid, it created an expectation. Those people have been let down. Will you perhaps reflect that, in the future, governing takes more than simply warm words?”
“It is not about financial services, so it makes sense that the Department of Justice would finally expand its remit into civil law. That anomaly has gone on long enough.”
“We are talking, fundamentally, about a civil law Bill. Indeed, the officials who are in the Chamber today are civil law officials. That reinforces something I have talked about at the Committee, which is the odd and anomalous situation that the Minister of Finance, to whom I often give a hard time but who has a lot on his plate — his Department has a lot to do — is in. It would be more sensible — I think that lots of people think the same — if the Northern Ireland Department of Justice were to cover civil law, as is the case with all other Departments of Justice; those in the UK and Ireland, certainly, as well as those in most parts of the Western World. The LCM that we are debating is, rather than being about financial services, fundamentally a legal reform that will have an impact on the courts.”
“That is an irony that I simply wanted to put on the record and that we, as legislators, will have to be cognisant of. Nevertheless, it is sensible that we extend this provision to Northern Ireland, given that, clearly, there are ordinary investors who hold cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin as part of a portfolio. It would be worth us understanding exactly how — we may interrogate this a little bit more in the Committee for Finance — Northern Ireland has come to have what is, perhaps, a surprisingly high volume of crypto-ownership amongst small investors. <BR /> <BR />The other brief point is that, although this is a financially adjacent concept that we are talking about — it is clearly not traditional finance — that is not the reason that the Minister of Finance has tabled the motion. He tabled the motion because it involves civil law.”
“It is true, and a wry irony, however, that, over the past number of years, those who have been the biggest enthusiasts of cryptocurrency such as Bitcoin and other forms of non-traditional asset are those who have railed against the state and who believe that the infrastructure of the state, whether that be legal restrictions, regulations or the operation of central banks, is the stuff of the devil. Their reason for having and holding cryptocurrency is to get away from the traditional structures of the state. In this part of the world — in the UK and at a European level, as well as in America, where cryptobros, as they are known, are trying to get the US Federal Reserve to take holdings of cryptocurrency — it appears that states and legal frameworks are not so bad after all.”
“I can therefore confirm that the Committee for Finance supports the LCM and endorses the principle of the extension of the provisions of the Property (Digital Assets etc) Bill to Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will make a couple of brief observations — they are not political points. The first, which is for those who have been following cryptocurrency, is not intended to damn or demean cryptocurrency, because this is useful legislation that we are going to extend to Northern Ireland and, clearly, there are people who hold cryptocurrency as financial assets, so it makes sense that legal provision be made.”
“On 7 February, the Department informed the Committee that two responses were received to the consultation, from the Law Society NI and the Federation of Small Businesses, a fact that the Minister reflected in his opening remarks. Although the Executive agreed, on 21 November 2024, to the extension of the Bill's provisions by LCM, the LCM was not laid by the Department until 10 February 2025 following the Special Public Bill Committee Stage at Westminster, which took place on 3 February. <BR /> <BR />At its meeting on 12 February 2025, the Committee agreed that it was content with the proposal to extend provisions in the Property (Digital Assets etc) Bill by way of a legislative consent motion.”
“The Committee wrote to the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) asking it to elaborate on the figures included in the 2023 online cryptoassets consumer research report. The FCA responded with a reference to its research, which goes back to what I mentioned about levels of ownership, that stated that crypto-ownership is highest in London and Northern Ireland — something that is of interest to the Committee. The FCA emphasised that work to identify further underlying reasons is challenging without more research. However, the Assembly and MLAs will want to consider that in a range of areas going forward. Outside London, perhaps surprisingly, we have the highest volume of crypto-ownership in the UK, which surprised me and other members of the Committee. <BR /> <BR />On 6 December 2024, officials advised:”
“The Department also indicated that the provisions of the Bill are considered compatible with the Human Rights Act 1998 and there are no associated equality implications. The Bill does not create any new rights nor dilute or remove any existing ones. The Department envisages that it will not have any implications that relate to article 2 of the protocol or the Windsor framework. The UK Government have stated that there are no financial implications from the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Officials provided oral evidence to the Committee on 20 November 2024. The timeline for introduction and the consultation to date were discussed. The officials noted:”
“The Committee also requested that any responses to the Department's engagement exercise should be copied to the Committee and that the Department should provide the Committee with details of any ongoing conversations between the Department and Westminster where a position had not been finalised; any financial, human rights and equality implications, including article 2 of the protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland; any regulatory or rural impact; and any data protection implications. <BR /> <BR />The Committee further considered information from the Department on cryptotrading figures in Northern Ireland, and I will come on to that in a minute. The Committee received a written briefing on the Bill from the Department on 15 November, which responded to a range of those queries. The Department wrote to a range of local stakeholders.”
“As the offer from the UK Government to legislate on behalf of Northern Ireland had not followed the normal process, the Minister wrote to the Committee prior to the Executive's agreement and the formal laying of a legislative consent memorandum. Executive approval was given on 21 October 2024. <BR /> <BR />At its meeting on 6 November 2024, the Committee considered correspondence from the Department about the background to the Bill, with members agreeing to schedule an urgent oral briefing with departmental officials.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister of Finance wrote to the Committee on 31 October 2024 to advise that she, as it was at that time, would seek Executive agreement for the extension of the Bill to Northern Ireland via an LCM, and, in parallel, would seek the views of the Committee for Finance. The Minister said that, on 11 September 2024, the UK Government sought feedback on the potential application of the Bill to this jurisdiction and offered to include it through an LCM. The Minister expressed support for that approach, noting that legislative constraints would prevent a specific Assembly Bill in the same time frame during the mandate. The Minister also outlined how the Department was carrying out a short engagement exercise with potential local stakeholders, though it was considered unlikely that there would be much specific local interest.”
“Things that are neither in action nor possession may, therefore, be recognised as attracting property rights. There may be other reasons, however, why a thing cannot be personal property, such as the fact that the thing in question does not satisfy the general indication for personal property. The effect of the clause is not to say that any and all "things" are property. Clause 2(1) sets out the territorial extent of the Bill; that is, England and Wales. Clause 2(2) makes provision for the Bill to come into force. An amendment was made to reflect the addition of Northern Ireland to the territorial extent of the Bill, which was formally agreed on 3 February.”
“The recommendation responds to the development of new types of assets, such as cryptotokens, which challenge traditional categories. <BR /> <BR />The Ministry of Justice in England and Wales introduced the Property (Digital Assets Etc.) Bill to the House of Lords on 11 September 2024. It is a short two-clause Bill. Clause 1 provides that a:”
“— here we get into some slightly technical legal language —”
“I will reflect the scrutiny that the Finance Committee undertook with regard to the legislative consent motion. <BR /> <BR />As Members will be aware, digital assets play an increasingly vital role in modern society and the contemporary economy. They are used in growing volumes and for an expanding variety of purposes, including as things in themselves and as means of payment. <BR /> <BR />As the Minister outlined, the Bill gives effect to the recommendation by the Law Commission in England and Wales for statutory confirmation that:”
“We should all be attempting to move this society towards reconciliation and beyond our brutal and horrible past, but that does not mean not being honest and clear about that past, and it has to include states and state actors.”