Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“Nothing thus far has been done. By all means, let us pass the motion — I support it — but let us get real.”
“You will never find our party wanting when it comes to championing the all-island economy and standing against the awful electronic travel authorisation and all of those things. We tabled a motion saying basically the same thing last May. Parties supported it, including the party that holds the Economy Ministry and the Finance Ministry.”
“They have not brought forward any practical measures, whether in relation to the Fiscal Council, which Minister Murphy first appointed and announced in 2020, or some of the newer measures that we passed. As I said, we passed a motion on this in May last year. <BR /> <BR />I have the hospitality industry in my blood. I grew up working in pubs. I still have that on both sides of my family. I care deeply about our tourism offer. I represent in South Belfast a large part of the city centre of Belfast, including our amazing hospitality offer here in the city, which is intimately connected. As we know, the significant majority of our visitors to Northern Ireland arrive in — shock horror! — Dublin Airport, because we are viewed as one small island to visit.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, we already have certain other types of tax alignment that are theoretically in existence but have not been enacted by Ministers, and I want to point out the inconsistency. It is all well and good talking on a Monday about how we need to have greater all-island alignment economically and then, on the Tuesday, railing against something in international law that is designed to protect not just economic partnership but economic entities — businesses — that are affected by the presence of the border. Another inconsistency is the fact that, for the past year, the Sinn Féin Economy and Finance Ministers have done nothing in terms of greater fiscal devolution to align us on an all-island basis.”
“You would not think that some of the parties that advocated that and talked about the variance and the awful situation created by the presence of an international border were the same parties that are resisting any form of protection for the all-island economy and, in fact, were offended by the use of the term "all-island economy". It is true to say that Ireland is a single unit when it comes to an offering for tourists. Many tourists are not aware of political boundaries; they simply come to the island of Ireland. That is why Tourism Ireland exists. It is why we and others have called for greater alignment in branding. Yes, alignment of VAT would be welcome.”
“Of course, we will probably all end up agreeing or largely agreeing with the motion, but pointing out some of the inconsistencies that happen in the Chamber is a bit like being in a twilight zone. First, we have heard parties lambast the existence of the Northern Ireland protocol, which is there in part to protect and recognise the essence of the all-island economy: the fact that we exist on an island. There are two different jurisdictions, whether, politically or constitutionally, you like it or not. My party and I do not, but, on the basis of today's debate, we all recognise that there are two jurisdictions on the island that are economically intertwined. The performance of one is dependent on the other.”
“The tens of thousands of jobs have been mentioned and the extraordinary gross value added (GVA) to this region, but people would rightly expect that the Executive, the Finance Minister and the Economy Minister, having already committed to look at this and bring forward a package of proposals, would have done so, not least because things have got worse since we last debated this. However, they have not, and we have not seen that yet. There is a cost-of-doing-business review, which came after the new costs that were created by the UK Government's autumn Budget, but we have no clear policy intent. <BR /> <BR />I presume that the motion will be passed today; I would be surprised if it were not. There has been much to agree with in the debate.”
“That debate was responded to by the previous Finance Minister, who just happens to be the current Economy Minister who will respond to this debate. Her party did not divide on that motion. In fact, there was no Division; the motion was agreed by acclamation. That was nine months ago. I would have expected, as would, I think, people who watched that debate, some meaningful follow-through. <BR /> <BR />People in the hospitality industry face huge, real pressures. Independent publicans, cafe owners, hoteliers and restaurateurs face extraordinary pressure. We talk about it and rhetoricise about it in the Chamber, but they struggle to make payroll. They are providing something hugely important.”
“I probably speak in too many debates in the Chamber. I am sure that some of my colleagues will agree. I am sure that, privately, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, you will agree that I open my mouth too often in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />I was not planning to speak in this debate, but I will do so because, first of all, it is an important topic and, secondly, it is important that we are honest and consistent in the Chamber about what we do. As has previously been referred to, I think, by Mr Tennyson, we debated a motion that called on the Executive to do something very similar. It was not exactly the same, but the motion was fairly similar to this one and was debated during an Opposition day in May 2024.”
“— to a close there, as I feel that I am —.”
“I will draw my remarks to a close. I am happy to acknowledge that difference and will reflect on it in two ways. The Member was a very esteemed Member of the European Parliament; I acknowledge that. Obviously, I deeply regret Brexit, because I think that Northern Ireland and, indeed, the whole UK would be much better off inside the EU debating the issues. I also think that we should have MEPs —”
“It is the same with vapes, and that is what is in the Tobacco and Vapes Bill. How did menthol cigarettes get banned in Northern Ireland? The EU did it. <BR /> <BR />It is important that, in the Chamber, we are accurate and detailed when we talk about the issues. That is all I wanted to do in my remarks today. It is important. I recognise the issues that have been raised, and I am glad that there is consensus, with the possible exception of Mr Carroll, today.”
“So I think that it is reasonable for me to include in my contribution the tobacco products directive that came into force in 2016. As Members have said, we are, as a result of the protocol/Windsor framework, still partly bound by that. The directive also banned menthol cigarettes. The reason why you cannot go into a tobacconist in Northern Ireland and buy menthol cigarettes, which are a bit like vapes in that they are among the products that, people think, are kind of tobacco-light, even though they are as carcinogenic as normal cigarettes, is that one of the public health arguments consistently made was that they were, effectively, a gateway. They allowed people who might not have enjoyed the taste of normal tobacco products to smoke and, therefore, were creating a public health risk.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, the previous Member to speak gave a long disquisition on public health and tobacco.”
“I remember that, in my old life, when I was still a UK government official, one of the very first things that happened after the Brexit vote was a discussion about what were the Brexit freedoms that people could avail themselves of. The Brexiteers inside the Tory Party could not think of any. One of the most recent —”
“From listening to some Members, you would think that there is a vast public health risk to Northern Ireland. They have not provided any evidence of there being a public health risk to people in Northern Ireland, and there is no sign that there will be. There have been reports about that and speculation about what might happen, but it is also the case that some of the public health and environmental regulations that we enjoy, such as product safety standards, have come in over the past half century because of EU regulations. They were not delivered by London, let alone Stormont. <BR /> <BR />I will share a bit of personal experience. People might shake their head, but the personal experience that I want to share is true.”
“I will talk a little about not only the generalities of the legislative consent motion, which we, obviously, support, but some of the ways that the debate has been used to complain about the Windsor framework/protocol. Clearly, that has been a significant part of the debate. I recognise and agree with many of the comments that have been made about the importance of the provision and of dealing with tobacco regulation and moving towards a smoke-free society and of better regulating and tackling the issue of vapes, given that they particularly affect young people and are, in many ways, a gateway to smoking. Those statistics have been quoted. <BR /> <BR />It is true that, under the protocol, Northern Ireland is bound by certain provisions under the European Union.”
“For the record and in contrast to some of the chuntering that we are hearing in the Chamber today, it is worth putting on the record that the people to bear in mind are the innocent men who were gunned down at the Heights Bar in Loughinisland, Sean Graham bookmakers and other locations. There is clear evidence of collusion in the security forces. That is not to smear everybody who served in the police and security forces, but there is clear evidence. Will the Minister agree that the way to deal with these issues is for the British Government and others to agree and deliver a proper article 2-compliant process that achieves justice and decency for the families of those innocent people?”
“— so what do you, as Minister for the Economy now, want to do with that unused FTC, and will you bring forward plans?”
“This is a slightly surreal situation, Minister. You are saying that the budget that you gave to the Department that you are now in charge of is not large enough. Indeed, you are saying that the budget is down from 2021, when your predecessor, now Senator Murphy, was Minister of Finance. There is a slight irony there. <BR /> <BR />On the departmental budget, you now have a £50 million underspend in financial transactions capital (FTC). More than any other, your Department is one that could and should be making more use of that. Not much seemed to be done in the Department of Finance —”
“Minister, just down the hill from the Clifton Gateway, what is called the "Tribeca Quarter" is falling into dereliction, which is shameful. In response to a question for written answer from me in spring last year, you said that your officials were meeting Belfast City Council to discuss the vesting of that site. That was in July. What has happened since then, and what is your Department doing?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I am attracted to the question about prohibition. In some of these things, I am fundamentally a bit more libertarian, certainly when it comes to certain substances, but it is also the case that smoking does not have some of the social or community upsides that are seen from, for example, the consumption of alcohol. Would the Member take my offer of a comparison with the smoking ban in pubs? That came in 20 years ago, when I was still working in pubs. At that time, that ban was thought of as an example of prohibition that would not work and that was very negative, but it has probably saved lives.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and giving me the opportunity to put something on the record. Will she agree that it might be helpful if the Minister could look back to her previous Department and suggest to the Finance Minister that the cost of doing business review should look specifically at the burden of rates on hospitality, which includes Belfast city centre?”
“— about specific policy interventions. Thank you.”
“— that we support the sector in every way possible. I look forward to hearing from the Minister —”
“There are some other issues. It is clear that we have a distinct licensing system, which I have talked about a bit in the Chamber. A review of that is due at some point, but there clearly is not a huge amount of flexibility in it. Hopefully, some proposals will come forward on that. <BR /> <BR />It is critical —”
“We need to increase the number of taxis. There is an issue with licences and how we dispense them and make that system work. There is also an issue with getting available and durable night buses.”
“People who go into Belfast city centre for a night out, not just people who come in from Lurgan, Lisburn or Bangor but people who live down the Ormeau Road, up the Antrim Road or on the Falls Road think, "How do I get home tonight? Do I have a taxi? Is there a night bus?".”
“It is not the Minister's direct responsibility — it is for her new colleague — but, given her old role and given that the Minister's colleague is from the same party, she may be able to nudge that along to get clarity, as Mr Brett said, on rolling, long-term funding for night buses. Until coming to this job, I spent a large part of my adult life in London, where I fell asleep on many night buses. One of the great experiences of night buses in London was falling asleep and finding out where you would wake up. I should probably not say that, because it will be reported by Hansard. One of the most important drivers of the night-time economy is the ability to get home. At the minute, we have a bit of a problem. When I say "a bit of a problem", I mean a major problem.”
“Some habits are clearly changing post COVID, such as how people consume drink and interact with one another, but that does not mean that people do not want an enthusiastic night out or great spaces in which to enjoy music and come together. It is concerning that, in Belfast and other places, music venues and nightclubs are closing. Some people are facing a bit of a crisis. If you saw my dancing, you would say that there is a crisis there. Not subjecting people to that vision may be a good thing, but the loss of clubs is a serious issue, whether that relates to live music or dance music. <BR /> <BR />We need to pursue a huge range of policy interventions. There has been some progress with night buses in Belfast, but we need to see more.”
“To give it an historic context, in the darkest of days, as Members have said, Belfast city centre and some of the pubs, nightlife and clubs that managed to stay open really were a meeting point for people from different backgrounds, not just those from the traditional green or orange backgrounds. People from LGBT backgrounds, the punk community, the folk community and people in the dance scene got to know one another. They danced, enjoyed music together and had a few drinks in the middle of Belfast at a time when things were very difficult. <BR /> <BR />We are now beyond that conflict, thank God, but we are still not doing enough to support the amazing night-time economy in Belfast. It is important to say that, in lots of places, parts of the night-time economy are under threat.”
“I am thrilled to speak about the Belfast night-time economy. I would like to claim some personal expertise on the subject, although, unfortunately, not as much these days as, perhaps, I had in the past. Like other people, I am getting older, and having young kids means that I do not get the opportunity to enjoy it as much as I would like, but I do occasionally. I am also a representative of the city, and I spent a significant portion of my earlier working life working in pubs and the hospitality sector. It is something that I have devoted some time to as a politician since I was elected. <BR /> <BR />First, I will put it context. Belfast's night-time economy is hugely important to Northern Ireland as a whole. It generates over £2 billion.”
“Minister, you said last year that the creation of an all-island animal cruelty register was "untenable". I think that that was the word that you used. Is that still your position? Have you done any more thinking on that matter?”
“Justin McNulty talked passionately, as he does, about healthcare provision in Daisy Hill. He is exactly right: whatever your view on the border in the long term, it should not be the limits of our aspiration or ambition for our people. We should see beyond it, whether that is building all-island rail infrastructure, green jobs for our people, better healthcare or all the other opportunities. <BR /> <BR />I commend the motion to the Assembly.”
“I will not give way, because I do not have enough time. We can talk about it outside the Chamber. It is not really the main thrust of what we are talking about. <BR /> <BR />The purpose of our motion is not to presuppose a constitutional outcome but to talk about the potential for building cooperation on this island. I have no qualms about saying that I think that we will be much better off when there is not a border on the island of Ireland. For a whole range of reasons, the best future for Northern Ireland is back in a new Ireland, inside the European Union. However, until we get there, and even if we do not get there, which is the aspiration of unionist Members, we need to grow and deepen North/South cooperation. We need much more ambition than we have in the current Northern Programme for Government, which has very little.”
“I am going to move on to some other points.”
“You have put that on the record. Anna Lo —.”
“Yes, because you are going to get me an extra minute.”
“I say this in the nicest possible way: I and, I think, one or two others from both a unionist and nationalist perspective slightly bristle at the idea that having a view on the constitution — my view is that the island of Ireland will function better when there is not an international border on it — is some profound failing, that it is a rigid ideology, and that only the Alliance Party is smart enough and ethical enough not to hold to such rigid, outdated ideologies. That is not me, nor is it my party.”
“to match the Irish Government. I will answer two of her points. Nowhere in our motion do I say that we should exactly match the Irish Government. Here is one of the reasons why: we cannot afford to. Why can we not afford to? It is because their economy is much stronger and healthier than ours and because they generate loads more tax than we do. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge that Diane said that healthy North/South cooperation does not threaten anyone from a unionist or British perspective. I welcome that. It is important that she acknowledged that. She is right. All the unionist representatives who spoke acknowledged that. That is a positive step forward in how we debate these things in this place. <BR /> <BR />David Honeyford, as always, is very engaged on these subjects.”
“Shared budgeting would be an important step forward. There are some areas of shared budgeting. Diane Forsythe, my very able Deputy Chair in the Finance Committee, asked me this about shared budgeting:”
“<BR /> <BR />The Shared Island unit has marked a step change. The aspirations that are in the Irish Government's Programme for Government are significant. Declan Kearney made some comments about that not going far enough on Irish unity. There is some legitimacy to what he says, but I also say this: would that the Northern Executive match that. Sinn Féin Ministers hold the three biggest economic Departments — Finance, Economy and Infrastructure. I would like to see Sinn Féin Ministers show what they are doing to build the structures and muscle memory of North/South cooperation, rather than simply pushing it to Dublin all the time. I will hold him to his word and his colleagues to account. <BR /> <BR />I did not quite hear from the Minister a commitment to push for shared budgeting on a whole range of things.”
“The report is a look at how a model of the Northern Ireland economy could be built to see how it could interact on an all-island basis. However, they missed the very real potential not only for economic growth but for joint investment in things such as infrastructure. <BR /> <BR />That is why our motion is not simply about the end of the NSMC meetings. North/South Ministerial Council meetings are important. The DUP thwarted them for years on end, which was a crude violation of the Good Friday Agreement and the ministerial Pledge of Office. However, meetings are not an end in themselves. Simply showing up and having meetings are not the outputs that our citizens seek. Transformative partnership is what we need to see, whether that is in the provision of healthcare or the delivery of infrastructure.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a representative who believes in a new and united Ireland, I want the Northern Ireland Executive to work collaboratively with the UK Government as well as they possibly can. I want the maximum financial settlement, and I want collaboration. That does not undermine or change my view of the constitutional future. It is sensible and obvious. The motion does not threaten anybody, and it is completely rational. It is completely rational because of what is in the joint ESRI-NIESR report. I am glad, to be fair to the Minister, that he referenced that report. The report is, in a sense, an east-west collaboration between ESRI in Dublin and the National Economic and Social Research Institute in London. They have found the potential benefits.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. Five minutes is, of course, nowhere near long enough to cover the breadth of Members' contributions and the importance of the subject. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say a couple of things at the start. Lots of Members talked about constitutional change. Indeed, as my two colleagues said, our party proudly aspires to constitutional change on this island and is unabashed about that. However, it is important to say that the motion does not mention constitutional change. It does not oblige anyone to support a united Ireland, but lots of people went there pretty quickly and felt that it was important to critique it from, for example, a unionist perspective, because they felt that it was committing them.”
“Minister, one of the activities that paramilitaries have been engaged in in addition to, if I can call them this, traditional paramilitary-style attacks is hate crime, particularly race hate crime, in South Belfast. What is her Department specifically looking to do to address that? Does it include hate crime legislation?”
“The problem is, deputy First Minister, that there is no clear plan or target for cutting waiting times. The reason why that is important is that, like a whole range of other things, whether it is the absence of an anti-poverty strategy or the failure to produce any form of serious intervention on waste water, it appears to the Northern Ireland public out there that you and your colleague the First Minister are marking time and doing photo opportunities in lieu of taking decisions to improve people's lives. Please, deputy First Minister, just for once, can you tell people when, specifically, will waiting times fall?”
“Nearly six months ago, we gathered here to talk about the race riots in Belfast. Can the deputy First Minister confirm whether her Department has investigated whether any recipients — past or present — of Communities in Transition funding have had any involvement in the ongoing activities around race violence in Belfast and other towns and cities?”
“I happily joined the AERC, really enthusiastic about progressing reform, but the Member's party and Sinn Féin then pushed it into the long grass at the AERC. I more than welcome the fact that there will be a meeting tomorrow, and I hope that his party will be on board.”
“I appreciate the Member's giving way. Did the Justice Minister or the Agriculture Minister specifically request that the Alliance Party's reform proposals be included in the Programme for Government?”