Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“Much of that growth happened when there was no Executive at all to drive policy or strategy or when severe political instability and doubts over Ministers' commitment to pursuing the benefits of dual market access hindered investment. <BR /> <BR />I can remember a time in the Chamber when Ministers for the Economy denied that there even were benefits, even as Invest NI sought to tentatively market those benefits overseas. I am glad that the Economy Minister that we now have does not share that position. Imagine what could be achieved with a focused plan and strategy in collaboration with the Irish Government and, indeed, with the support of the UK Government and the European Commission.”
“I am delighted that I gave way to the Member, because he has given me the opportunity to say that I am a proud pro-European and that I would love to remove any scintilla of a lack of democracy from our arrangements by rejoining the European Union via an inclusive and reconciled new Ireland. What a great idea. <BR /> <BR />To be clear, increased cross-border trade is a good thing. It may be the only good thing to have come from Brexit, even if was the last thing that some of Brexit's strongest proponents wanted. We have some canopy from the Brexit storm. Northern Ireland, traditionally one of the weakest-performing economic regions, has consistently outperformed other UK regions since we formally exited the EU. Ignoring the role played by our uniquely advantageous trading position would be daft and disingenuous.”
“Let me be clear: that is a good thing, whatever your constitutional perspective.”
“InterTradeIreland collates data published by the Central Statistics Office in Dublin and the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) in Belfast. The data is stark. Before Brexit and our new trading arrangements in 2015, annual cross-border trade in goods stood at just under €3 billion, having been around that level for more than a decade. By 2023, cross-border trade had tripled in value to more than €10 billion. I quote a report from the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) last September:”
“I do not want to spend the debate lingering on the old Brexit battle, not that there really is anything to debate. Even Nigel Farage, a close personal friend — or fair-weather friend — to some in the Chamber, has admitted that Brexit is a failure. We cannot escape all the negative consequences of that failure. As I said, we are living with its consequences, with lower spending by the UK Government and the deterioration of public services. We are dealing with key labour shortages, with the movement of people being outside the protocol. We are dealing with disruptions in trading services, cross-border and into Europe. <BR /> <BR />The data is clear: we are seeing tangible economic benefits from our ability, which is unique on this planet, to move goods seamlessly into both the British and European single markets.”
“Yes, it remains controversial today, as does Brexit itself, which was an extraordinary act of economic self-harm. The UK's official economic forecast to the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) estimates that Brexit, specifically hard Brexit, will cost the UK around 4% of its productivity and 15% lower trade. Those might seem like dry, abstract percentages, but they will add up to tens and, ultimately, hundreds of billions of pounds of lost economic activity, which means tens of billions of pounds or more of missed tax revenue. When we add that to the existing effects of grinding austerity, it helps to explain the withered state of public services here and elsewhere.”
“In each of those areas, the relevant Minister has signalled a positive tone in relation to greater cross-border collaboration, but we want and need to see practical action and specific plans with timelines. <BR /> <BR />Our first, admittedly very detailed, motion calls for specific actions — meat on the bones — and a rhetorical commitment to dual market access. The SDLP has been the loudest and longest champion of the unique dual market access afforded to this region under the protocol, now termed the Windsor framework. Indeed, I was the first person to use that phrase in the Assembly Chamber — yes, I am sad enough that I went and checked that in Hansard. Back then, in 2020 and 2021, the very existence of our preferential trading arrangements at the crossroads of the world's two largest markets was hugely controversial.”
“First, I apologise to the Clerk for making her read out such an expansive motion. The motion is long and detailed for a specific reason: we want to nail down specifics in it. In each Opposition day so far, the SDLP Opposition have sought to use their time to effectively hold Ministers to account and to platform the most urgent policy matters. The two go hand in hand: accountability and a vision for the future; that is what being a constructive Opposition is about. <BR /> <BR />In this final Opposition day before the summer recess — I am sure that some Executive colleagues will be delighted to hear me say that — the SDLP Opposition will propose three motions aimed at maximising the benefits of all-Ireland cooperation in investment and job creation, improving healthcare and building our vital tourism industry.”
“That dignity and calm sits in stark contrast to the failures of the criminal justice system; to those who still celebrate and trivialise the evil acts that took place; and the organisations, including those who were on the Newtownards Road on Saturday night, that trivialise acts such as shooting an 87-year-old man in the back. The courage, dignity and resilience of the Loughinisland families stands true, and my thoughts are with them today.”
“It is a failure that we now know was about more than simple incompetence. Repeated reports have pointed to collusion. The only meaningful justice and accountability offered to the Loughinisland families came, first, in the 2016 ombudsman's report and then in the pioneering investigative journalism of Barry McCaffrey and Trevor Birney. The offence was compounded when those brave investigative journalists were arrested — arrested — for the work that they did for the Loughinisland families. <BR /> <BR />Loughinisland is an ancient place. If you go to Loughinisland, you will find ancient churches on a small island in the lough. It is a place of calm and dignity. That calm and dignity is reflected in the dignity and resilience of the Loughinisland families and that community over the past 30 years.”
“He was shot in the back while watching a football match. The killers shouted "Fenian bastards", then made their escape, leaving a scene of unimaginable horror and suffering — suffering that has continued over the past 30 years for the victims' families and the survivors of that obscene act. <BR /> <BR />Though all the dead men were Catholic, the community was and is a shared one. Almost exactly five years after the atrocity, I started working behind that bar. There were still security cameras and a buzzer to enter, but the pub was frequented by people from all traditions, appalled at the evil atrocity that had been visited on Loughinisland. <BR /> <BR />That obscenity was compounded by the failure of the criminal justice system to provide any justice or accountability. That is a failure that persists to this day.”
“Thirty years ago today, gunmen walked into a small rural pub in County Down and opened fire on a room full of innocent civilians who were watching a football match. Ireland were playing Italy in the World Cup and were, unusually, winning. I was watching the match at home as a child when my father was called away: I did not know why. <BR /> <BR />In living rooms, pubs and clubs across Ireland, it was a moment of joy and togetherness. In the Heights Bar, also known as O'Toole's, innocent people were watching the game when two UVF gunmen entered the pub and sprayed it with bullets from an assault rifle. They killed six innocent men: Adrian Rogan, Malcolm Jenkinson, Dan McCreanor, Patsy O'Hare, Eamon Byrne and Barney Green. At 87, Barney Green was the oldest known victim of the Troubles.”
“I acknowledge that there is a confidentiality issue around the private matters of a public servant in this case, and I acknowledge that there is a division of labour between your Department and the Executive Office, but, should the case develop over the summer, will MLAs be urgently communicated with should the status of the ombudsman change or any other development occur?”
“The 'Spotlight' programme last week highlighted something that we all knew but that is much worse than we thought. Lough Neagh and, indeed, large parts of our environment have become a Wild West for ecocide and environmental crime. Minister, do you believe that that makes the case for speeding up the creation of an independent environment agency, and will you bring those plans to the Executive forthwith?”
“If that happens, is there a political agreement that an Alliance Party representative will replace you, and, if not, will you commit that your party will not throw the institutions into instability by leaving the Executive, should the next Justice Minister, if you are successful in the general election, not be an Alliance representative?”
“Given that, in a fortnight's time, you are standing for election to leave the job, Minister, you may not be the one who makes that decision. I know that your diary is filled with visits to funfairs and other matters, but it is important that we deal with these things seriously. <BR /> <BR />Political stability is another issue. You and I agree that neither the First Minister nor the deputy First Minister should have the power to resign their office and throw the Executive into instability. If you are elected as MP for East Belfast, your replacement will have to be elected specifically and uniquely by the Chamber.”
“Minister, I acknowledge that the Act places legal obligations on your Department and its bodies and it would be wrong to obstruct them, but is it also the case that, given that every party in the Chamber opposes the Act, it would be right for your officials to plan now on the basis of that Act's being repealed, as is the policy of what will, hopefully, be the incoming UK Government? Does the Minister agree with that? Will she instruct her officials to plan and prepare for that eventuality?”
“I am happy to intervene. I did not realise that that was how interventions worked. As I pointed out, we said that we will not force a Division. That does not mean that we endorse the legislative programme. We do not have to force a Division in order to indicate that we do not endorse or support it. We think that that support should be fulsome. As I said, much of the legislation is very welcome, and we will support it. I am grateful to have been offered the opportunity to intervene.”
“I said that we are not forcing a Division.”
“We are not forcing a Division, Carál. You are misquoting me.”
“It is all hat and no cattle. It is time for delivery.”
“Although we will not force it to a Division, we will not support the legislative programme.”
“When will they be implemented? When will we see an actual Programme for Government? It is nearly 130 days into the mandate, after hundreds of meetings between civil servants and Executive parties between 2022 and 2024, and we still do not have that signed off.”
“Well, I would say that, looking at some of what has come out of the Executive over the past four or five months, the public of Northern Ireland might well conclude that, so far, the Executive is all hat and no cattle. We have had dozens upon dozens of motions promising everything from action on Lough Neagh to support for childcare — I admit that there has been some spending on childcare from the Education Minister, which I commend — and a range of other things. Indeed, this morning, the First Minister was saying that Sinn Féin is bringing forward a motion to support uniform costs. That is enormously welcome and urgent, but, so far as I understand, that will come via a private Member's Bill; it is not even in the Executive legislative programme. <BR /> <BR />All of those motions laid out vital aspirations with which we do not disagree.”
“I have put on record my disappointment that the Minister of Justice has walked away from her and her party's long-standing commitment to a stand-alone hate crime Bill. I hear sighs from my colleagues on the Alliance Benches, but my job is holding the Executive to account, and I will not be deterred from doing that, no matter what Members from Executive parties think. That is what the Opposition are here for, and we will do that job. <BR /> <BR />Under the previous item of business, we had a discussion about the North/South Ministerial Council agriculture meeting, and you, Mr Speaker, are from an agricultural background. There is a saying in agricultural circles in Texas that certain farmers can be all hat and no cattle.”
“There is certainly not the ambitious workers' rights legislation that has been promised by the Economy Minister and his party. Let us bear it in mind that these are simply Bills to be introduced this year. I am sure that few of them will be passed this year. I am glad that the Minister of Finance is introducing a Bill to put the Fiscal Council on a statutory footing. That is most welcome, and I have been calling for it for some time, as others have. <BR /> <BR />The Bill from the Health Minister to respond to the findings in relation to Dunmurry Manor is, of course, welcome. There are other measures, including the Minister of Justice's updating of the rules around fingerprints and DNA profiles.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend a couple of the Bills in particular that, I am glad, are coming forward. The Minister for Communities has been commended, deservedly, for working with his colleagues to introduce the Defective Premises Bill in relatively quick time. The sign language Bill, clearly, is important progress for people in that community. There are some welcome tidying-up measures from the Minister for the Economy around the Utility Regulator's powers and the RHI scheme, but they are, as far as I am aware, legislation that has been in the works for a long time. There is nothing particularly that aligns to the Economy Minister's grand vision, much of which I agree with in principle. There are no legislative indications of how any of that will be delivered.”
“Curtailed and constrained by public finances as it is, it is still a significant period in which significant legislative achievements can be met. <BR /> <BR />Before I make broader comments, I want to go through some of the specifics in the legislative programme. In framing some of my comments, it would be helpful to know, perhaps from the First Minister or the deputy First Minister, whoever is winding up, to understand which of the Bills were in draft form when the Executive were restored in February or, indeed, which of them were in draft form when the Executive collapsed in 2022. Several of the Bills that we are talking about here are Bills that have been talked about for a long time, but there are lots of other Bills that are not on this programme that have also been talked about for a long time.”
“I am pleased to debate the legislative programme for 2024, such as it is. We are told by the First Minister that the programme, which was laid on 23 May by written ministerial statement, does not represent the totality of the Executive's ambitions in relation to legislation. All I can say is, "Thank goodness for that", because, when compared with some of the promises that have been contained in motions from Executive parties over the past four and a half months and with the promises that have been made in PR photo opportunities, in videos by Ministers and, indeed, in party manifestos, what is in the legislative programme is, I am afraid, pretty thin gruel. I acknowledge that this is a three-year mandate.”
“Do you regret that your party, in its failed election campaign, attempted to weaponise the open border on this island? Do you regret that, and will you ensure that it never happens again?”
“— that said that Sinn Féin is opposed to open borders and that Ireland must have control over its borders. That was delivered in County Louth, First Minister.”
“First Minister, one of the outcomes at the end of the Second World War was the creation of the EU, ultimately, and its single market. I was shocked last week to hear your party leader, Mary Lou McDonald, say on the Claire Byrne programme on RTÉ that she was not uncomfortable with an increase in checks on people moving across the border in Ireland. She also said that the main issue that Sinn Féin had with the border was around remilitarisation. That will come as a shock to those of us who have worked hard over the past number of years to prevent a hardening of the border in relation to goods and people. I was also shocked to read a Sinn Féin election leaflet delivered in County Louth, of all places, First Minister —”
“Minister, I know how difficult the fiscal position is. That is why I asked you what representations your office — the head of devolved government here, led by the First Minister and the deputy First Minister — has made to the UK Government. Earlier, Mr Kingston asked you about the importance of the East-West Council and the British-Irish Council. Have you used those forums or any other route to press for funding to ensure that the Euros come to Belfast and that Casement Park is built in time?”
“Are we to understand from the deputy First Minister that a Programme for Government is actually drafted but cannot be published yet? Secondly, in response to a question that I submitted, we established that at least 100 meetings between Executive parties and the Civil Service took place between the Assembly election in 2022 and the restoration of these institutions in February 2024. Given that it is now more than four months since we came back, and we still have not seen the Programme for Government, what on earth were you talking about?”
“Does the deputy First Minister agree that, 26 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, evidence of young teenagers pulling down party electoral posters to put on bonfires are not good examples of progress on good relations? Will she condemn those actions and, further, agree that modelling a proper commitment to good relations should start with political leaders calling that out and calling out the proliferation of paramilitary flags?”
“Thank you, Minister. The current period of PEACE PLUS ends in 2027. Was there any discussion about whether that funding programme will be renewed? We will have a new EU Commission this year. There were EU elections at the weekend. Not to rub it in, but I am sure that the Minister noticed that there were elections at the weekend. What plans are in place to negotiate a new period of PEACE PLUS funding?”
“<BR /> <BR />In commending the debate and acknowledging the huge progress that has been made and the real work done by educators in West Belfast, I should also talk about the impact of lost programmes and lost funding for things like Healthy Happy Minds and holiday hunger. Real work has been done by educators and community groups and by schools like St John the Baptist Primary School on Finaghy Road North, which has had to do its own fundraising and plug gaps caused by lost funding. While acknowledging all the positive work that is happening and the positive progress in West Belfast and other parts of the city, I would like to see specific plans in a Programme for Government. If the Minister is able to shed any light on that, that would be most helpful.”
“We, as an Opposition, have never been unrealistic about that, but that means that it is even more important that there are clear and measurable targets for families and educators in West Belfast and other parts of the North. They need to know what the targets are, what will be prioritised and what will be delivered. There are specific things that I would like to see tackled in this mandate, but I suspect that they will not be, in part because I do not think that the Minister will be able to get political agreement; in fact, I am not sure that the Minister would give that political agreement in the Executive. What are the specific actions that will be taken to improve educational attainment in places like West Belfast?”
“I will look to a Programme for Government, when it finally emerges, to see what the specific targets are for the Executive. I acknowledge that there are real funding constraints facing the Minister and other Ministers, but it is important that we see specific, measurable outcomes. Hopefully, some of those will be outcomes converted from the independent review of education and the report, 'A Fair Start'. <BR /> <BR />Gerry Carroll acknowledged and was right to say that there are concerns around the underfunding of some of the recommendations in 'A Fair Start'. I acknowledge that there is not endless money. The way in which we are funded in this place imposes constraints.”
“<BR /> <BR />There are specific issues that, we know, affect kids across this region, particularly in working-class families, such as the cost of school uniforms and holiday hunger, and those structural challenges exist in West Belfast too. My colleague Paul Doherty, councillor for Black Mountain, who does amazing work in Foodstock on the Andersonstown Road, has done particular work on, for example, holiday hunger and school uniform drives. That is a real challenge. We had questions to the Minister yesterday about that. That is one of the real pressures that face families in the west of the city, as it is in other parts of this region. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say that, in getting to the root of some of the issues that we face in West Belfast and across the North regarding educational achievement, we need to see specific targets.”
“Kids in West Belfast suffer from that, in part because it is also an area of higher than average deprivation. It is important to say that, and it would not be honest of us not to say it. <BR /> <BR />I want to draw on a couple of particular themes that have been talked about today. Some of the important initiatives that go on in West Belfast have rightly been highlighted. Obviously, West Belfast, in addition to all the great schools there, has one of the North's two teacher training colleges, and I know that St Mary's plays a huge part — the summer schemes at St Mary's have been outlined — in the broader community work of improving attainment and joint working between agencies, schools and, indeed, community groups.”
“I completely acknowledge that. The point of my remarks was not to single out West Belfast as an area of underachievement, because the Member is right that, clearly, there is real attainment going on there. However, it is true that attainment is not good enough in the North generally. He has been one of the most consistent advocates, as his colleague Aisling Reilly was earlier, of the idea that the long tail of underachievement in this region is intimately connected to our system of selection and the fact that we have a pernicious system that divides kids at age 11 and promotes a form of selection that no serious objective analyst or academic who is looking at educational outcomes thinks is a good way of running your education system or, frankly, your economy. It is important to put that on the record.”
“It is also true that West Belfast, despite progress and the amazing contribution of educators and community groups there, who have been named, deprivation levels are far too high, as they are in other parts of this region, and educational attainment is not high enough. Educational attainment is not where it needs to be in this region more generally, but it is —”
“She used to organise exchange trips over to Brittany for girls from St Rose's and St Louise’s Comprehensive College. When I was, I think, 12— a wee culchie from Downpatrick — I was persuaded, possibly against my better judgement, to go on a one-man exchange trip to Brittany with a bus full of girls from St Rose's and St Louise’s. We are talking about educational attainment: well, I certainly got an education from that bus-full of girls from West Belfast, who were not long educating me in what I was right and wrong about. It was great craic. <BR /> <BR />It has been said that educational attainment in West Belfast has improved but is not where it needs to be.”
“I, too, really welcome being able to contribute to the debate. Educational attainment is a really important subject in respect of West Belfast and the North more broadly. <BR /> <BR />Since Members — including some who do not represent West Belfast — are sharing personal stories about their connection to education in West Belfast, I will share mine. Although I represent South Belfast, some schools in the south-west Belfast part of the constituency have an intake from West Belfast. That includes Malone Integrated College and Rathmore Grammar School. A significant number of kids who live in the West Belfast constituency go to Rathmore and Malone. My aunt was, for years, a French teacher in St Rose’s, which no longer exists and is now part of All Saints College.”
“— perhaps, people who do not want to ban it. I recognise that it is important that we are clear that freedom of religion and freedom of expression are absolutes in a liberal society. We can proceed to ban harmful conversion therapy without going anywhere near impinging on those practices. I commend the Opposition motion to the Assembly.”
“My understanding is that most people here believe that we should move away from and ban those harmful practices. This does not need to be binary. The implication is that there are —”
“<BR /> <BR />I am afraid that I reject what Mr Allister said about conflating the contents of the Ashe and Mackle report, as it were, with specific legislation. Should there be specific legislation, either from the Executive or through a private Member's Bill, Mr Allister and every other MLA will be able to debate what is in the legislation, as, I am sure, he will, and its contents will not be precisely the same as what is in the report by the academics. I am sure that the report provided some useful evidence, which is why it has been mentioned in the motion. <BR /> <BR />The Minister referenced the report being "one side" of the debate. Again, I push back slightly at the idea that there is one side in favour and another that is hostile.”
“To be clear, the Minister is asking not just for the definition to exclude prayerful and pastoral support; I do not think that a ban on conversion therapy needs to touch on those things. Let me be clear: that is not all that the Members are calling for in the amendment; they are calling for a much longer period of consultation on the way ahead. Yes, we need to consult on the detail of legislative options, but the amendment waters down the core purpose of the motion. I want to make some progress, because I have given way a couple of times. <BR /> <BR />Doug Beattie noted that he spoke in favour of the ban on conversion therapy in 2021. That underlines the need for us to make progress on dealing with it. Sian Mulholland and Eóin Tennyson spoke impactfully about the need to progress the ban.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is really important to note that many people of faith from a range of denominations and backgrounds who are LGBTQ or have LGBTQ family members want to see this harmful practice banned. It is genuinely a shame that we have to pit the interests of people of faith and those of LGBTQ people, their family and their friends against one another, because there is much more overlap there than we think. I acknowledge that Members from Mr Kingston's party have largely approached the debate respectfully, even though I disagree with some of their points.”