Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“<BR /> <BR />There is a bit of a secular or theological debate about the references to this in the waste strategy. It is entirely legitimate that we move towards trying to increase the recycling of these products, particularly when they are recyclable material. Many of the people who are using these products would like to see them recycled more. I have no problem with that, but I want to make a couple of broader points. Having said that the subject is legitimate and important — I am sure that the Minister will update us on his waste strategy and how these ideas and concepts can feed into that — and, as I have said, as someone who changes nappies on a many-times-daily basis and cares a lot about recycling, I would like to be able to recycle those products, were that a possibility.”
“I should preface my remarks on the motion by saying that it is a very important subject. It is an important subject because it affects parents and people who care for young children and also people who use the other forms of recyclable sanitary or medical products that were listed by the proposer of the motion. I am someone who changes nappies, literally on a daily basis. I deal with nappies in the morning; I deal with them in the evening; and I will deal with more nappies in a couple of months' time because I am expecting my third child. This is genuinely an important subject, and I welcome the fact that there has been a look at it. I also welcome Nicola Watson's research. There are legitimate questions, and the points are well made.”
“Minister, are you seriously telling us that you think that the funding model is grand? You seem to be saying that it is about finding odds and sods in January monitoring rounds, with tens of millions here and there. Important though that is, that is no model for the long-term funding of our waste water infrastructure. Every serious economic commentator, construction company and outside investor says that our water infrastructure is a crisis that needs to be dealt with. Down the coast, where NI Water pumps millions of tons into Belfast lough, we are famous for our seabirds, but lots of people listening today will associate that kind of intervention with another type of bird: an ostrich sticking its head in the sand. Minister, we need action on NI Water.”
“I join you, First Minister, in commending the first responders — NIE staff, engineers and people who were out all weekend helping to get us back to normal after an unprecedented storm. <BR /> <BR />You talked about the team that is operating that involves the Department for Communities. How is that being coordinated centrally? It is critical that there is coordination between councils, the Executive, NIE Networks and DFI Roads. Precisely how is that being driven? Who is in charge of that team? Is it being coordinated from the Executive Office to drive it forward?”
“Minister, in your answer to Paula Bradshaw, you talked about the statistics for South Belfast. Are you, your Department and the Education Authority actively looking at the huge increase in housing that we will see in South Belfast? On the stretch up the Saintfield Road to Four Winds, Newtownbreda and Carryduff, thousands of homes are going in. Can we look at that proactively to ensure that there will be school capacity in the constituency and in neighbouring schools such as Lagan College, Our Lady and St Pat's and Inst to support the huge increase in housing and young families that we will see in our area?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. As an Orwell fan, I am always pleased to talk about Orwell in the Chamber. Will the Member acknowledge that, in '1984', Orwell was talking about a totalitarian society in which one could not use those terms at all? The fact that the Member and other Members have, in the Chamber today, used, and are entirely free to use, terms that other people might find offensive is proof that we do not live in that type of society. The Member is free to say whatever he wants.”
“Minister, do you agree with the First Minister's claim that the Executive are wholly behind devoting energy and resource to getting pre-clearance for Belfast International Airport, which would be great in theory but looks vanishingly unlikely in the circumstances? Would your Department's energy not be better focused elsewhere?”
“First Minister, as with statements on a lot of other issues, one year on since restoration, the public see words but not delivery at Stormont. Can you confirm when Casement Park will be delivered? How often have you and your colleague raised it with the Communities Minister? When in 2025 will we see the 2024 legislative programme delivered?”
“Will seeking pre-clearance in that context and with all that it entails seriously be Executive policy? I do not think that any serious observer thinks that it will happen.”
“I appreciate that, Mr Speaker. I am the leader of the Opposition, and it is my job to hold Ministers accountable. <BR /> <BR />Is this going to be Executive policy —?”
“First Minister, I am genuinely intrigued to hear that seeking pre-clearance is official Executive policy, in part because it originated from a clandestine bilateral process between the DUP and the UK Government, not the other Executive parties. Secondly, we know that the Trump Administration will be anti-immigration. They will not seek more open borders. Thirdly, it is also true that we already have pre-clearance on this island. The US Administration are likely to say, "Travel 100 miles down the road to Dublin".”
“It needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that the motion or the amendment today are as nuanced as the debate requires. If we are going to have such debates, we need to have them in full knowledge of the potential unintended consequences. As I said, a plain reading of the motion and the amendment is that they do not really deal with the issues that are here. If there is going to be guidance from the Department, it clearly needs to take into account all those factors. I am afraid that neither the motion nor the amendment does that.”
“I have no difficulty having these debates, but if we are going to table such motions in the Assembly, we should carefully think through the consequences of them. I have no difficulty talking about the importance of, in particular, female safety in the prison estate. I am also very clear on the need to talk about trans issues in a respectful and inclusive way. A very high proportion of trans people have been vulnerable in their lives and live pretty difficult lives, so, for example, simply shoving them into parts of the prison estate, particularly when they pose no discernible risk to anybody, would be a risk. As I said, I have no difficulty talking about safety in the prison estate, but we need to judge the issues on a case-by-case basis, with the absolute priority, whatever about questions of gender, being safety.”
“The motion and the amendment would have very severe potential unintended consequences were they to represent a blanket policy.”
“By "biological males" — I do not dispute the use of the term — Mr Beattie, I think, means "natal males": people who live as women but who were male at birth. A plain reading of the text is that, even if a person had, for example, received testosterone for decades, presented as a man and was living as a man — they could be a large, bulky individual and could even have been convicted of a violent crime — they would have to go into the female prison estate. Likewise, trans man would have to go into the female prison estate. There are clear unintended consequences that would not just present risks to the safety of other prisoners or, indeed, trans prisoners but place additional resource and management burdens on the Prison Service.”
“When you enter the prison estate, there is a process by which you are risk-assessed. If and when you leave the prison estate on licence, you will be managed by the Probation Board. Those are criminal justice professionals whose job is to make decisions on risk. Risks assessments are made in conjunction with the health service. Nothing should get in the way of the primary motivating purpose, which is the safety of all those in the prison estate. That should be the overriding concern. <BR /> <BR />One of my concerns with the text of the motion and, indeed, the amendment is that there are obvious potential unintended consequences. I will set them out. The motion says:”
“It also goes for women, who are entitled to an honest discussion about single-sex spaces, risk assessments in relation to the prison estate and other issues. The motion is specifically about the custodial context. Some remarks have strayed into other connected issues, because Members touched on the rights and expectations of trans people, but the motion is specifically about the prison estate, so I will limit my remarks to that and let others make comments about other issues. <BR /> <BR />First, the most important thing is to say that, in such issues, the primary motivation should be the safety of all those in the prison estate. When a court finds you guilty of an offence and a judge has sentenced you, you are deprived of your liberty for a set period of time.”
“I will speak briefly on the motion and the amendment. When we discuss contentious issues that are subject to some controversy, as this issue clearly is — it would be odd not to acknowledge the fact that it has been the subject of significant public debate in recent years — it is important that we speak with honesty, sincerity and sensitivity. That goes for people who are trans, regardless of whether they find themselves in the custodial prison estate. It is important to note that, in Northern Ireland, transgender prisoners represent a tiny number of people. I do not know the exact number, but I think that it is in low single figures. For the best part of a decade, there was not a single individual.”
“That is what we should all hope for and work towards.”
“Aid is surging into Gaza, although it needs to pour in in much greater quantity. As has been said, we all should be part of that by encouraging donations from Western and other Governments. Fundamentally, however, in order to resolve the conflict in the long term, as has been said for decades now, there needs to be a just and lasting settlement between the peoples of the Middle East. There needs to be a viable, durable and just Palestinian state that allows Palestinians and Israelis to live in peace in that part of the world.”
“However, it is important to say that the legacy of the awful bombardment of Gaza, which was a wholly disproportionate and counterproductive response to a heinous set of acts by Hamas, is the creation of trauma that will be with the babies and children who are alive now and their families until the end of the century and beyond. It is that serious and significant, and we should not gloss over that. As someone who believes in the leadership of democracies in the world, I am afraid to say that the conflict has damaged people's trust in the ability of parts of the international community to lead and stand against the wholesale slaughter of innocents. <BR /> <BR />There is now a glimmer of hope. First, the immediate death has ended, and hostages have been returned to their families.”
“It is important to say first that the attacks that initiated this latest round of conflict in the Middle East were wholly wrong and reprehensible. The response to them has been not just wholly disproportionate but grotesque and wrong in the most profound way. Tens of thousands of innocent Gazans and Palestinians have lost their lives. The people of Israel and the wider Middle East have not been made any more secure by the actions of the Israeli Government in responding to the heinous attacks of 7 October. <BR /> <BR />As Declan Kearney and Kate Nicholl said, most people who saw the scenes of innocent Israeli hostages being returned and of aid surging into Gaza will have been relieved and felt some degree of respite from the onslaught of awful images that we have seen and, at times, felt unable to do anything about over the past 15 months.”
“I too want to reflect on the news over the weekend of a ceasefire in Gaza in the Middle East. First, I welcome the fact that the immediate horror of bombs being dropped in Gaza has ended.”
“We would like to see more, so it would be helpful to hear more from the Minister about what is happening at Forge — I have declared my interest — and at mid Down, which will be critical to taking some of the post-primary pressure off Lagan.”
“One is along traditional communal identities, which is in no way to diminish or criticise the amazing schools that we have in the controlled and maintained sectors. However, the system is too divided: too many kids are educated separately in that context. It is also too divided by class. We fail working-class kids at a heroic level in this society. Every serious educationalist who has looked at it has recognised that the kind of selection that we do at 11 simply fails working-class kids. I slightly got dragged off into that debate, but it is a critical one. <BR /> <BR />There has been huge progress on integrated education in South Belfast.”
“Those are two great schools at either end of the constituency, but, as was said by Paula Bradshaw, in the Carryduff/Castlereagh area, there is definitely capacity for an additional school. Hopefully, mid Down integrated college will relieve some of that pressure, but we need clarity about when that school will be built and completed. <BR /> <BR />There is a huge positive level of support for integrated education in South Belfast. We are proud in South Belfast of our diversity in terms of the traditional identities in the North but also of newcomer communities, whom we welcome, celebrate and integrate. Deirdre Hargey was right to say that we sometimes slightly miss a trick when we talk about how our education system is divided along two fundamental axes.”
“Harding Memorial Integrated Primary School also underwent that transformation process. Those are all good things. There is a particular pressure when it comes to post-primary schools. As has been said, Lagan College is an amazing school; it is the exemplar in many ways, because it was set up 40-odd years ago. I think that our former colleague Clare Bailey attended Lagan in the first intake. However, Lagan is oversubscribed; there are just not enough post-primary places. There are, of course, other amazing schools in other sectors in that part of the city, but many parents want to choose an integrated option at post-primary. At the minute, Lagan is the only option in the south-east of the city. Malone Integrated College is a great school in the south-west of the city. A significant amount of its intake will be from west Belfast.”
“Talking about the aspiration to have a less divided education system should in no way be read as criticism of those schools, and, frankly, things become a bit sterile when we get into that territory. However, I think that you can acknowledge that brilliant Catholic maintained, controlled, integrated and Irish-medium schools exist while also saying, "It's not a good thing that so many of our kids are educated separately and come to think of one another as different". I am afraid that that is a reality. It is a reality that crystallises when you leave this place and you realise how, bluntly, abnormal it is. That is just a simple truth. <BR /> <BR />South Belfast has amazing schools in all sectors, but there is huge demand and growing support for integrated education. Cairnshill Primary School began the transformation process last year.”
“I am really glad that I gave way, because the Member is right. These debates get into the mud so quickly, and we end up looking as though we are virtue-signalling, or we offend people, or we talk around the issues. Holy Rosary Primary School is an amazing maintained primary school near me with lots of kids on free school meals and lots of kids from ethnic minority backgrounds for whom English is not their first language. It would be ridiculous if I were to say that that Catholic maintained primary somehow needs to feel guilty about the fact that it is not formally integrated. Rosetta Primary School is an amazing controlled primary that has a huge number of kids on free school meals.”
“Deirdre Hargey is right: there is a huge challenge around social class that I will go on to talk about. Those things intersect, which is really critical. However, we cannot kid ourselves about the role that a fundamentally segregated education system has in reinforcing the sense of abnormality between broad communal identities in Northern Ireland. It just does.”
“More generally, integrated education provision is a hopeful and positive story in South Belfast. I am in a relatively unique position in this place: I was away for 20 years from this island and the North before coming back. While I was away, I was one of those people who bloviated and had lots of opinions about Northern Ireland and what was wrong with it. One of the things that people often talk about is our education system and the fact that kids are educated separately. There is context for that, and there are reasons and complications. However, as I said when we passed what became the Integrated Education Act, it is not normal that our education system is segregated as it is. It just is not normal. I will never be coaxed into saying that it is normal for our kids to be educated separately, as they are.”
“<BR /> <BR />As Paula Bradshaw said, the school also faces an outstanding challenge to secure a site. It has an agreement to move to the old Knockbreda High School site on the A55 dual carriageway, but there are outstanding issues with traffic management and, frankly, with DFI getting on with doing what it needs to do. There is an obvious solution, which should happen sooner rather than later, because that school community has been waiting for nearly a decade for the matter to be progressed. That is one issue.”
“Unfortunately, I may not be able to be present for the Minister's remarks, because I have a pressing engagement elsewhere that involves said pupil of that primary school. <BR /> <BR />The school had been expecting funding under the Fresh Start Agreement. Again, I will not relitigate this — it is an Adjournment debate, and things are a little less heated at this time of day — but, for one reason or another, it no longer has that Fresh Start funding. We have discussed the matter in the Chamber before. The school has been placed on the list of schools to receive future capital funding, but it has no certainty over when the money to build a new school will be received. It was expecting new money. Indeed, it has been told for a decade to expect it.”
“I am pleased that Paula Bradshaw secured the Adjournment debate and hope that we hear from the Minister about what he is doing to support integrated education in South Belfast. Like Paula, I am not going to use the debate as an opportunity to relitigate some of what we robustly debated yesterday and in the days before that. I am sure that we will have the opportunity to do so again in the days and weeks ahead. <BR /> <BR />I declare an interest as a parent of a child who attends an integrated primary school in South Belfast. Indeed, it is one of the primary schools that a Member mentioned in an earlier contribution: Forge Integrated Primary School. There is a specific issue at that school, to which I hope that the Minister will be able to speak.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He shares my frustration with this place voting through motions that are not acted on. I certainly intend to hold the Minister to account for the delivery of gender-responsive budgeting. She has indicated her broad support for it. The Member can take my assurance that we will hold the Finance Minister and the rest of the Executive accountable for it through our role as Opposition and my role as Chair of the Finance Committee, of which he is also a member.”
“— to address significant gender inequality across a whole range of policy outcomes. We commend the motion to the House and look forward to a constructive debate.”
“Gender-responsive budgeting presents a hugely important opportunity for us —”
“Gender-responsive budgeting is pursued in Scotland in a devolved context. We think that this is a hugely important way in which we can improve how we address the gender inequality in our public policy outcomes. We also think, as our motion says, that the Executive should introduce this promptly. It may not be possible to do it for the 2025-26 financial year, but we hope to hear from the Finance Minister about how she wants to make progress. <BR /> <BR />We have many concerns, to be honest, about the amendment. Although I understand some of what the amendment seeks to do, it also seems to seek to negate the motion entirely.”
“It is, however, also true to say that, in a number of specific areas, analysing policy outcomes through a gender lens will also require us to look at specific differential impacts on, for example, Protestant working-class boys. When it comes to the differential in their educational outcomes, gender-responsive budgeting would be able to uncover, analyse and unpack that. This is a hugely important development in rigorous and impactful policy development in most developed countries. <BR /> <BR />I will not go through all the details, but a whole range of toolkits and frameworks has been produced by organisations such as the OECD to advise countries that wish to pursue gender-responsive budgeting. It is also true that the UK, of which we are a devolved part, is an outlier, in that it has not pursued it.”
“They deal with the differential consequences of policy priorities and policy delivery that have not properly prioritised them and their needs. We know, for example, that, disproportionately and historically, the burden of caring responsibilities, whether for children, elderly parents or disabled family members, has fallen and still falls on women. We know that the consequences of caring for career prospects, financial position and, indeed, mental health, also fall disproportionately on women. <BR /> <BR />When we talk about childcare, we are talking about a gender-based issue. When looking at how we finance childcare, we are talking about an issue that should be looked at through the lens of gender-responsive budgeting.”
“The majority of OECD countries now practise some form of gender-responsive budgeting. It is also important to say that gender-responsive budgeting can feel a little bit like a relatively abstruse, slightly academic framework that interests people who pay attention to and look closely at the detail of public expenditure or those of us who serve on the Finance Committee and take a close interest in these things. Actually, it is about the delivery of the most urgent policy priorities that our society faces, that Stormont confronts and that our people want delivery on. Childcare, the health service, economic inactivity and crime all have vastly differential gender impacts that, bluntly, the women of Northern Ireland deal with every day.”
“The motions today have been a mix: we have dealt with the downstream consequences of misogyny, tolerance of hateful attitudes towards women and tolerance of misogyny and awful behaviour, particularly among men; but we have also dealt with and discussed upstream policy interventions to stop those outcomes. The final motion is about one particular form of upstream policy intervention, which is gender-responsive budgeting. What does gender-responsive budgeting mean? In simple terms, it is making sure that all budgetary, financial and significant expenditure decisions are made, or at least analysed, through the lens of their impact on gender equality. <BR /> <BR />It is important to say, first of all, that this measure is not some abstruse, left-wing preoccupation. Actually, it is normal practice.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is the final debate in a series of debates on Opposition day on motions that have focused on violence against women and girls and the broader urgent crisis that we face in this society around tackling violence against and abuse of women. Our motions are constructive, the debates have been rigorous and constructive, and I think that we have made progress. There has been significant consensus but also a thorough exchange of views. I hope that progress arises out of today's Opposition day. <BR /> <BR />The final motion is about gender-responsive budgeting.”
“Minister, you want to get on with it, and I encourage you to get on with it. We have been back for nearly a year. We have not seen the anti-poverty strategy yet, but I am encouraged that you have said that it will be published before the end of the financial year. If it is so important, why was it not mentioned in the Programme for Government? Will it be included in the final Programme for Government?”
“— because we have had a lot of consultation in this area. We commend the motion, and I thank all of those who spoke today for the seriousness with which they approached the subject.”
“Justice Gillen is not some left-wing, trendy academic; he is a former Appeal Court judge. They are serious, practical proposals. Let us get on with them. <BR /> <BR />This is the first of our motions today. I am a little concerned about the DUP amendment —”
“I do not think that I will get an extra minute, and I have a few things to get through. <BR /> <BR />I welcome that confirmation from the junior Minister. <BR /> <BR />A number of points were made about pretrial jury education. It is critical that, in our justice system, we retain free and fair trial processes and that the judiciary has discretion, but that happens already. It has to be said that a few particularly lurid comments were made about that, particularly by Mr Gaston. Judges give direction; jurors are given education. That was reflected on in the Gillen review. The justice system is the downstream part of the policy intervention in the crisis that we face, but there are real things that we can do. Our motion calls for specific, overdue action to implement them.”
“<BR /> <BR />Our motion today calls for the implementation of two specific parts of the Gillen review. One is on reform of the reasonable belief defence. I welcome the fact that the junior Minister has confirmed that the Justice Minister will consult on taking action on that. I acknowledge that the Justice Minister was suffering from a cold yesterday, so it is fair enough that she is not here today. I asked her a question late last year and have not received a response, but I am glad that we have some confirmation that we will see reform of that issue.”
“In a couple of months' time, my wife will give birth, and we are going to have a baby daughter. It really makes you stop, pause and think, not just as a politician but as somebody who has a wife and will soon have a daughter, about the extent of the crisis of violence against women that we face. <BR /> <BR />Twenty-five people since 2020 have lost their life. They are not just statistics. They are Natalie McNally, an activist, an Armagh fan and a passionate, brilliant campaigner; in County Offaly, Ashling Murphy, a primary-school teacher; Annie Heyneman, who has just lost her life in County Cavan; and Karen Cummings, the nurse from Banbridge who lost her life. They are not statistics or dry abstract numbers; they are real people who had lives that were taken away from them cruelly.”
“<BR /> <BR />As a husband and father, I think that it is sometimes important to reflect on the matter at a personal level. I was having a conversation with my wife recently about something as mundane as going running and taking exercise. We live in south-east Belfast, quite close to Cregagh glen, which is just on the border of my constituency and that of Joanne Bunting. I was encouraging my wife, who is no shrinking violet, to go for a run or a walk in Cregagh glen. If you have not been to it, I can say that it is a lovely little glen just off the ring road. I sometimes go there for a run. It is a great place to clear your head at lunchtime. She said casually, "I wouldn't, because I would feel a bit exposed going there alone." That stopped me in my tracks. I thought, "Jeez, this is not something that I ever have to think about".”