Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
The complete record
Every one of 5,909 lines we hold for Matthew O'Toole, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 69 of 119.
“<BR /> <BR />That has been made worse by the distortions and dissembling of Israeli Government spokespeople, up to and including the appalling Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. I will not list all the distortions, lies and obscenities that have been spoken by Israeli Government spokespeople over the past number of months, because those have, at times, been truly shocking, and I would use up all my time were I to do so. Those spokespeople have sought to shift the blame for innocent civilian deaths and to tell what amount to lies. <BR /> <BR />As we know, powerful Western allies have not just armed Israel but have too often — as they have over the past 60-plus years — sought to protect Israel from the consequences of its actions, including through the use of repeated vetoes of UN Security Council resolutions.”
“That act was an outrage that no moral person could support and that no true supporter of the Palestinian cause could think was in the long-term best interests of the Palestinian people. It is vital to state clearly, as our motion does, that there is no contradiction between opposing and condemning the acts of Hamas on 7 October and opposing the shocking, grotesque response of Israel. <BR /> <BR />To say that Israel's response has been disproportionate would be a grotesque, shameful understatement. The response has been limitless, unrestrained and repeatedly and brazenly in violation not only of international law but of the most basic moral imperatives that we should all live by, including the imperative to protect innocent civilian life. The destruction of hospitals and schools demonstrates contempt for human life.”
“In every generation, there come international events of such horror and such moral import that to remain silent is impossible. The burning moral question of this age — this moment — is the plight of the people of Palestine, particularly the nearly two million people in Gaza who have suffered months of bombardment, the killing of tens of thousands of innocent people and the virtual obliteration of large parts of civilian life, including hospitals, schools and the most basic infrastructure. <BR /> <BR />The bombardment began as a response to the actions of Hamas. On 7 October, Hamas launched a series of coordinated atrocities in Israel, claiming the lives of more than 1,000 people, and took hundreds of hostages, including children and the elderly.”
“With respect, Minister, this is not simply about the COVID inquiry; it is about culture and practice in the Civil Service, which your Department has responsibility for and on which we spent many millions of pounds reviewing in the Coghlin inquiry. Quite apart from the COVID inquiry, I ask that your Department revisit and re-examine its culture and practice of record-keeping, given that it marked its own homework in March and said that it was doing just fine on record-keeping. It appears, from what we have heard in the past couple of weeks, that we certainly are not.”
“Yes, there is. Did the Infrastructure Minister make any bid to you for waste water investment specifically related to Lough Neagh recovery?”
“Minister, when Members, including those in your party, all voted for a Lough Neagh rescue plan motion some weeks ago, the most modest estimate of its cost was well north of £100 million of investment. It is disappointing to see parties repeatedly vote for motions but, when it comes to aligning —.”
“On a point of order, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. It would be good to get your advice on this matter. During proceedings, the deputy First Minister said, with, I am sure, the best intentions, that the 'Safeguarding the Union' paper was negotiated between the UK Government and Northern Ireland. I am sure that she will want to correct that. It is not true: it was negotiated, as far as I understand it, between the DUP and the UK Government. No other parties in Northern Ireland, or, indeed, the Irish Government, were involved in negotiating 'Safeguarding the Union'.”
“That is certainly true, and I do not dispute that. Why, then, were there no representatives from the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales? Have they given any indication that they wish to participate in this forum?”
“While no one would doubt the importance of discussing matters of common interest such as trade and cultural exchange, it is important to be clear that this is not an institution that was set up under the Good Friday Agreement. It has no statutory underpinning, so, as an Opposition, we are clear that it does not have the same status, either in law or under the agreement, as either the North/South Ministerial Council or, indeed, the British-Irish Council. <BR /> <BR />At the start of the statement, you said:”
“— to be careful about the language that they use.”
“I therefore caution people with influence and power, including the leader of Sinn Féin and other politicians —”
“If the leader of Sinn Féin is saying that she supports tougher migration controls, she should be honest with people about what exactly she is talking about and what the consequences of increased migration checks at or away from the border would be for people on this island, including the impact that they would have on the operation of the all-island economy. After all the work that has gone on over almost a decade to ensure that we retain a soft and open border on the island of Ireland, it is profoundly irresponsible that, as a result of politicking by Tory right-wingers in Westminster, political debate on this island has been pushed quickly into a dark and damaging place that could have consequences not just for the people who are fleeing war and worse but for those of us who want to retain an open, soft border on this island.”
“<BR /> <BR />The reason that I have given all that preamble is to say that I am deeply disappointed by some of the language that has emerged from certain actors around what only amounts to irresponsible talk about open borders on the island of Ireland. It is important to be careful in our language. There is only one open border on the island of Ireland, and that is the border that we all want to remain open and soft. Most of us want that border to remain open and soft, whether or not we want a united Ireland at some point in the future, so it is deeply concerning to hear the leader of the Opposition in Dáil Éireann — the leader of Sinn Féin, Mary Lou McDonald — say that Sinn Féin is not for open borders.”
“I want to point out, however, that many people in the Chamber, on this island, on the island next door, in Brussels, in Washington and elsewhere worked hard to build a coalition that included not just people who were traditionally nationalist but many unionists who wanted to remain in the European Union and many unionists who cared about a soft border on the island of Ireland. People, as I said, who were supportive of our peace process and supportive of an open and soft border on the island of Ireland worked hard to ensure that, post Brexit, that soft border remained, without prejudice to the future of this island. Obviously, I and my party aspire to, at some point, remove the border.”
“I want to talk today about a subject that, in one sense, we never stop talking about, but, when we talk about it, we should be careful with our language: the border on the island of Ireland. That is a border that many of us worked hard to ensure remained as open and as soft as possible in the years following Brexit. I do not wish to reopen all the debates around Brexit and its consequences for this island, which were divisive, particularly in this Chamber and elsewhere.”
“I am grateful to my constituency colleague for giving way. She mentioned Finaghy. Places like that in our constituency — Finaghy, Carryduff and Newtownbreda — are shared spaces. Does she agree that, while lots of families like the one that she is talking about empathise with the people who were mentioned before, who care about the flag, what they are asking for in return is some empathy for their position, the fact that they feel that territory is being demarcated and that it is intimidatory? It is a two-way street.”
“Thank you very much, deputy First Minister, for giving way. I acknowledge a lot of what she has said; she is talking some sense. I do not agree with everything that she is saying, but I acknowledge that she is right that there are certain strictures and limitations. If we are agreed that the flying of paramilitary flags is different to the flying of national flags, for example, may I suggest that that is something on which we could move forward and at which the Executive Office could look to develop a specific code of practice and better enforcement?”
“I am grateful to Mr Allister for giving way. He mentioned that he thought that it was bad — I agree — when national flags descend into tatters. If he thinks that that is bad but no public body feels that it has the power or its staff do not feel safe enough to take them down, does that not imply that we need better? If he agrees that they should not be left up in tatters, who, does he suggest, should take them down? That is my honest question to him.”
“I believe that I was first. Mr Allister has to give way to someone.”
“— and being told that there is nothing that can be done”
“I also care about people who are tolerant and progressive in their politics and want to respect their neighbours, looking out of their bedroom window and seeing UDA, UVF or INLA flags or whatever it is. That happens. Members across the Chamber shake their heads, but that happens. It happens in my constituency. Frankly, I am sick, sore and tired of having to make representations to public authorities on behalf of decent people —”
“<BR /> <BR />The motion is a positive step forward. It is not a huge amount for us to be agreeing to or accepting in 2024. In South Belfast, we are proud to be plural and proud of our diversity. The sight of the Union flag is not only not offensive to me; it is important to me, because it represents my British constituents. Their identity matters to me. It matters to me now, and it will matter to me in the new Ireland that I seek to build. What is profoundly objectionable to me is those flags going up in a completely uncontrolled way, dangling like rags for months on end, which, I imagine, should be profoundly offensive to people who care about that flag.”
“I do not have much time, so I will not give way. I am happy to engage, but I do not have much time. <BR /> <BR />People are told that not because there is no Department that has the power to do that but because people feel that they cannot do it. Workers in that Department often feel that they do not want to do it. Why is that? It is because, often, the people whose opinions are sought when it comes to consultations on some of the codes of practice or some of the practices locally are the kinds of people who, either implicitly or explicitly, convey a sense of threat and peril to others in that community. That is part of the reason why we cannot support the Ulster Unionist amendment. Even when those practices have been well intentioned, they have sometimes led to things of that nature happening.”
“I acknowledge the point that you have made: expressions of culture and identity are, clearly, a source of division. <BR /> <BR />I was about to say that our former leader John Hume said that difference does not have to mean division. We, as leaders in the Assembly, need to provide guidance and leadership. I hope that the motion is about allowing us a structure to begin to develop and offer that kind of leadership. It cannot be acceptable in 2024 that UDA, UVF, INLA and IRA flags are flown, including in communities such as South Belfast, and people just have to lump it and be told, "No one has any lawful authority to take that down", or —”
“Again, we are into this thing about rubbing up against one another. People can quote back one thing against another. The Irish language is different from a paramilitary flag, to be absolutely clear. Let us be specific about that.”
“— that flags are not profoundly important things. I was going to go on to say that flags are deeply and profoundly important, but I will give way to Mr Brooks.”
“Some endorse expressions of identity in a particular way; others find that antagonistic. So it is important to acknowledge that we remain a difficult, divided society. <BR /> <BR />Our previous leader John Hume has been quoted in the debate. Hume's famous remark, "You can't eat a flag" goes to the core of our view of what constructive nationalism and social democratic politics is about. It is about moving this island towards an end to division, but without simply a constant focus on expressions of identity that seek to exclude and divide. However, that is not to say —”
“The motion that the Alliance Party proposes effectively asks us to endorse that code of practice. That is highly sensible and, in 2024, it is the bare minimum that we can do. <BR /> <BR />I have only a few minutes so I will try, uncharacteristically, to be brief. What are we talking about when we speak of flags and identity? We are talking about the reason why this institution exists in the way that it does. We are talking about the fact that this is a divided society, a contested space. This corner of our island is contested and it is plural. That is difficult: it is difficult to navigate and difficult for us all to understand. In one sense or another, every political party represented in this institution engages with that division. Some of us have a constitutional view; others do not.”
“As my colleague Sinéad McLaughlin said, we will support the Alliance motion very strongly. We will not support the amendment. Respectfully, I will explain why we cannot support the Ulster Unionist amendment, but I acknowledge the good intentions and goodwill with which that amendment was submitted. <BR /> <BR />I also acknowledge that the Ulster Unionist leader, Doug Beattie, served — I am sure that it was not always easy service — on the FICT commission. As someone who has known difficult service during his career, that was probably one of the more difficult things that he had to endure. That report is very long and detailed. Doug Beattie is right to say that it does not specifically endorse a code of practice, but it proposes a possible one.”
“I am grateful to the Minister for that detailed answer. It is important to say that, in the post-RHI context, it is deeply disappointing that such an important appointment was made without proper internal or external recruitment. Did the Minister, in agreeing the secondment, speak to his ministerial colleagues? I specifically would like to understand whether he spoke to the Justice Minister either formally or informally about the appointment. Did the head of the Civil Service give him any specific advice on whether she felt that it was an appropriate secondment?”
“I assume, Mr Speaker, that that was not in any way directed at me. <BR /> <BR />First Minister, thank you very much for that update. It is welcome that the NSMC is meeting again after three years. That will be the height of my speech. You talked about the all-island strategic rail review. I am pleased to see that it was a subject for conversation. You said that the final report will be published "pending approval in both jurisdictions". Can you confirm whether the all-island strategic rail review and its recommendations are agreed policy by both jurisdictions? If not, will you advance the cause that they should be?”
“Minister, there are reports today that you have told Executive colleagues that the Treasury has told your Department that there will be no progress on an increased funding package. I presume that that means an improvement to the fiscal framework for the next two years. Is that true? Can you confirm exactly where negotiations are with the Treasury? Indeed, are there negotiations? You also mentioned revenue raising earlier in your remarks. Are you formally now committed to introducing new revenue-raising measures within this mandate?”
“Minister, the question referenced the 10X Economy strategy. As far as I can ascertain, "10X" is a slogan coined by a US self-help expert and not a real, meaningful target for the Northern Ireland economy. Will there be specific targets around growing the all-Ireland economy? Will they be in the Programme for Government, will they be aligned to a multi-year Budget and what will those targets be?”
“First Minister, I specifically asked you about the phrase "open borders". That is important because our parties have fought for a long time to have the most open border on this island for goods and people. If you agree with that, why is your party leadership using a hard-right dog whistle to talk about open borders? Is that not, for the sake of a few votes, emboldening those who want to create a hard border on the island for reasons including to make life more difficult for vulnerable people?”
“I will not go much further. I was thinking of saying that should organic pet food be produced in Northern Ireland, it would be of a very fine pedigree, but, of course, that would be a pathetic pun to lighten the mood in the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Other than that, we support the new law. It is important that we have the ability to debate it. We have always said that, when there are debates about changes and improvements to the protocol, which is now called the Windsor framework, we are happy to acknowledge that it is good to have increased scrutiny. That is what is happening in the Chamber today. We support the applicability motion.”
“I will speak uncharacteristically briefly, perhaps, on the motion. The SDLP — the Opposition — will support today's applicability motion. The previous Member to speak, Philip McGuigan, who is the Chair of the Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee, outlined the fact that no trade bodies raised any objections to the regulation. Where practical outcomes are concerned, there are no organic pet food producers in Northern Ireland, but, clearly, the continued realisation of the benefits of dual market access requires us to maximise the ability to export seamlessly into both markets. <BR /> <BR />Given that there does not appear to be any downside for any future producers — there are no producers of organic pet food here currently — there seems to be no good reason for us to not agree to the new law applying to Northern Ireland.”
“Minister, you mentioned the joint review that is being undertaken between your Department and the Justice Department. Do you specifically plan or intend to make a joint announcement on next steps with the Justice Minister? When might we expect that?”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I am intrigued by the idea that delaying for one year as opposed to two years would put an undue and unnecessary burden on the Department and make it unable, for example, to deal with waiting lists. In that case, why not simply delay it indefinitely? It seems implausible that a delay of one year versus two years would be the difference in the Department's being able to deal with waiting lists and all the rest. I am intrigued to hear the Member's views on that.”
“Does the Member agree that this and our amendments are really about honesty and competence in government? If the Executive parties regret the legislation's passing in 2022, they should have the honesty to say that they do not want to implement it. However, if they think that there are no logistical reasons why it cannot be implemented in a year's time, they should explain why our amendments are not acceptable. Our amendments are clearly designed to allow the change to be implemented, but with an amended lead-in time.”
“— the weather is good for us. Thank you, Mr Speaker.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, some people prefer one-day cricket to Test cricket. They think that Test cricket can be grinding, attritional and difficult to watch. Some might say, "What better place for it than Stormont?". I would not say that: I would say that this will be a wonderful feast of sport. It should be part of building Belfast into a centre for sport. We will, hopefully, have the Euros at Casement Park in a few years' time. This is wonderful news. It is something to celebrate. Let us hope and keep our fingers crossed that —”
“<BR /> <BR />Cricket really is an example of pluralism and diversity as it works itself on the island and in this part of the island, which is something to celebrate. It is also an example of how sport can not only exemplify plurality on this island but unite us in our diversity. We have seen that in other arenas. We have seen it with the rugby team, which was triumphant, although not quite as triumphant as we would have liked in terms of the Grand Slam, but it won the Six Nations this year. We have seen it with the soccer teams on both sides of the border, albeit they have not been as successful recently in terms of qualification. We have also seen it with the GAA, which is reaching huge new communities and places, including east Belfast, where this match will be played in the summer.”
“I congratulate Cricket Ireland and, up here, the Northern Cricket Union and the North West Cricket Union on making it happen. I believe that they have engaged with the Communities Department. I encourage that partnership to continue. <BR /> <BR />Cricket is one of those sports that I wish I had played. I would have loved to learn how to spin bowl, but I did not get round to it. Maybe there is still time for me. Of course, it has many devotees in this place whom you would not automatically expect. Our former leader John Hume was an enthusiastic cricket player and supporter. Indeed, the former deputy First Minister, the late Martin McGuinness, was also a big cricket fan, which, of course, sometimes surprises people.”
“I welcome warmly the news that we are going to have a Test cricket match at Stormont. That is wonderful news. Cricket is a sport that has a proud and really fascinating history on this island. I am from Downpatrick, where cricket has historically been played; indeed, I used to work in the bar, pulling pints, at Downpatrick Cricket Club. Before I worked there, it had hosted the famous West Indies team of the 1980s and, indeed, the South African team of the 1990s. Obviously, it is only in the last few years that Ireland has become a Test nation. The first Test match was at Lord's last summer, and there was a subsequent Test match in Dublin. However, this will be only the second Test match played in Ireland and the first played in the North. That is wonderful news, and it is something to celebrate.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During Justice questions, I asked the Minister about movements at the top of the Civil Service, including her Department. Will you confirm whether it is in order for a Member to ask a Minister about personnel changes in the Senior Civil Service and the leadership of their Departments?”
“Whether it is the Cotton river in the Minister's constituency, the crisis at Lough Neagh or sewage being pumped into the sea near bathing water, it is clear that the public in Northern Ireland want a step change in environmental enforcement that takes us beyond some of the very low — in fact, they are pathetic — numbers for prosecutions that were outlined. Does the Minister agree that, in order to do that, we need an independent environmental protection agency? Will he commit to delivering one by the end of this mandate so far as he is able?”
“Are you satisfied that it meets the test that you set following the publication of the RHI inquiry report?”
“Minister, you said that it was discussed, but you did not quite say whether you gave a view. It appears from the minutes of the Education Authority that the Alliance Party representative was the member of the Education Authority board who formally proposed that a secondment be agreed. Do you think that the secondment of the permanent secretary meets the requirement to be, as you said following the renewable heat incentive (RHI) inquiry:”
“Minister, in fairness, you have come close to answering my question, notwithstanding the motivations of the Member who asked the question. I represent the most diverse constituency, possibly, on the island of Ireland, and race hate crime is now higher than sectarian hate crime in Northern Ireland. Can you be specific that the hate crime Bill you will bring in the second half of the year, will get to the heart of the increasing levels of race hate crime that we are experiencing in Northern Ireland, including in the wonderfully diverse constituency of South Belfast?”
“That is completely sensible. <BR /> <BR />I also ask whether the Minister is able to give us an update. Her party brought a motion recently around certificates for stillbirths, which is a kind of related issue. I know that her Department is looking at it. If she could update us on that in her closing remarks, that would be most helpful. At a political level, my party and I are happy to support the continuation of this provision, and I hope that we will see a more permanent legislative basis for it. It is a very sensible, necessary and humane provision. I think that we would like to see a more permanent legislative basis on which it can take place.”