Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“It would be helpful to understand the long-term plan, particularly in the undesirable but, unfortunately, not unlikely situation where we do not have fully functioning institutions in September. It would be helpful to understand exactly where we will be with this.”
“If the Assembly is still sitting in some shadow form, as per the legislation recently passed at Westminster, can the legislation come back for an extension or not? Could a Minister operating in shadow form, as it were, bring it back for an extension? My view is that, as we have, I hope, moved out of the absolute acute phase of the pandemic and are moving back into normality, any desire to make this permanent would have to be done properly through a proper consultative process with stakeholders and the public and explained. <BR /> <BR />We have no objections to the legislation being extended for a few months, but, as I said, it is slightly unclear whether the main reason for extending it is that we are still at the tail end of COVID or simply that it is bureaucratically helpful to just extend it for a bit longer.”
“It would be helpful to have clarity on that because, although it was a useful and necessary step in simplifying the process in the extreme situation of COVID, making the situation easier to manage for all those affected, including doctors, registrars and those in the coronial service, it would be a substantive change if it were to be made permanent. We would need more discussion and consultation with stakeholders and, possibly, the wider public on the consequences. <BR /> <BR />I would like clarity about what an extension until September will mean in the event that we do not have a fully functioning Executive by then. Certainly, my party does not want to see that, but will the SR simply lapse and we revert to normal?”
“The SDLP will support the extension and the draft SR before us today. As the Deputy Chair said, it was discussed at the Finance Committee some weeks ago. It is important to say that, while we will not raise any objections to this being extended, there is a slight lack of clarity over whether it is being extended because we still need the exigencies of emergency legislation because we are still dealing with COVID or because it is bureaucratically efficient and we want to continue it for a bit longer.”
“I say that in support of the order's extension, but I very much hope that, after the election, departmental officials will be able to provide some evidence as to how all that is working.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is also worth saying that the policy interventions that are needed to continue to support our high streets as they recover from the pandemic in the medium and long term need to be joined up. They cannot simply be about rates relief. They also need to look at the planning process. My party colleague the Infrastructure Minister has announced a thoroughgoing look at that. I am sure that Andrew Muir, who is a regular correspondent on the planning system, will have something to say about that too. <BR /> <BR />We need to understand the range of things that impacts on the viability of our high streets, and we need to understand how they interact. Going forward, it would be helpful to have a more robust evidence base for how well the relief is working.”
“Obviously, there is industrial derating, which has been instrumental in helping to support the growth of our manufacturing sector in particular parts of the region. This is not about saying that those reliefs should not exist; it is simply about saying that we need a better evidence base, which has been called for in the Fiscal Commission report. I understand that we will not get the Fiscal Commission's final report until after the election. I hope that, after the election, we are all back here taking responsibility and doing our job and that we can prove that we can take more responsibility for more revenue raising in this place and can understand how effective the relief that we are extending today is at getting support to our high street.”
“Certainly, more than one party in this place wants that to happen. For that to be the case, however, we need to understand fully the effectiveness of the reliefs that exist at present. If someone asked me how well targeted and effective this relief has been in the years that it has existed at getting new businesses into vacant premises on the high street, I would not be able to point them to a piece of evidence on or an evaluation of that. That is not say that that does not exist. I am sure that it has been a factor. <BR /> <BR />We support the extension, but, in order to justify the relief, we need to understand, in broader terms, how well it is working, because it is costing us £35 million a year. There are other rating reliefs.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is really important to state a couple of things. The income from the regional or local rate, whether domestic or non-domestic, is, largely, the only revenue source that the Finance Minister has. We need to be better at understanding the effectiveness of the resilience of the rates base. We passed legislation earlier this year to ensure that we can defend some of that rates base. We had to interrogate that, and it was not easy in some ways to prevent appeals against changed valuations on the basis of coronavirus. It was about taking a responsible decision, because we had to defend the revenue base of our only revenue source. <BR /> <BR />As we, as an institution, hopefully "mature", we need to move towards being able to raise more revenue and to take responsibility for more revenue in this place.”
“I was very pleased that the Minister commissioned the Fiscal Commission report, but the problem with commissioning good reports is that other politicians sometimes quote them back to you. The report is very useful and examines those things in detail. While we are supportive of the principle, given the cost — this is one of the larger areas of sub-parity in which the Executive have made a decision, with which they are continuing, to have a relief in a particular area; in some cases, it is a more generous area of service provision, but, in this case, it is a more specific tax relief — we should have a thoroughgoing look at how well targeted the relief is and whether it is achieving what we want it to achieve. I welcome the fact that the Minister said that that will be reviewed over the next year or two.”
“I will speak briefly today. In short, we will support the extension of the Rates (Temporary Rebate) (Amendment) Order for all the reasons that have been outlined by others, specifically in order to support the high street and other non-domestic commercial properties as we move out of the COVID crisis. <BR /> <BR />I want to say a couple of things. While we support the extension in principle, it is important to draw attention to the order's wider context, because it will have wider policy implications, as it were, than the rural ATMs order that we debated earlier. This is a much more substantial intervention. The cost of the rural ATMs exemption is about £100,000 a year, whereas this relief costs tens of millions a year, I think. The Fiscal Commission report suggests that it costs around £35 million per annum.”
“That means that we need an overdue deeper look at the provision of banking services in rural areas, and more broadly. In closing, I will get back to the matter in hand, which is the passing of the SR. We obviously support it.”
“We therefore need to take a more coherent, joined-up look at what we want from banking services. The matter is largely reserved, as I said, and policy is run by the Treasury, but we have a distinct banking network here in Northern Ireland. We have had a slightly different composition of banks, many of which have been cross-border banks. Some of their activity has been impacted on by Brexit and by the fact that no special arrangements have been made for the provision of financial services on a cross-border basis. We have seen that Ulster Bank, for instance, has largely divested itself of its operations in the South, and certain other banks are in large part, but not entirely, divesting themselves of their operations in the North.”
“It is true that banking policy is largely a reserved matter, but not exclusively. Devolved Ministers are not without power to engage with and lobby the financial services industry here. We have seen a very large divestment of branch networks. Last week, we heard of the imminent closure of a number of HSBC branches in Northern Ireland. That comes on top of wave after wave of closures. Those closures affect not only rural areas but branches in my South Belfast constituency.”
“I stand to briefly support the proposed SR. As the Deputy Chair of the Finance Committee said, we discussed it in Committee and were unanimous in supporting it. Of course, it is an extension of a relatively modest support, but it is an important one, particularly for rural areas, as the Member who spoke previously said. <BR /> <BR />The Minister touched on the relatively modest amount of forgone revenue, and the Deputy Chair of the Committee talked about the relatively small number of rural ATMs that benefit or, as it were, are subsidised by this. Frankly, this calls for, perhaps in the new mandate, a longer look at what we want to achieve in our banking services here, particularly access to banking in rural areas.”
“What has happened with replacement EU funding is nothing short of a scandal. The Economy Minister's desire is to sweep it under the carpet and pretend that his Department and the community and voluntary organisations do not face a huge funding black hole, but they do. We are days away from the end of the financial year. What representations have the Minister and his Department had from the Economy Minister? There are community and voluntary organisations that will not be able to make financial plans for next week because they have not had clarity from that Department. What has he heard from the Economy Minister?”
“While I agree that collapsing the Executive is utterly wrong — it is as wrong now as it was in 2017 when the Minister's party did it — I hope that the Minister will be able to support the SDLP's proposal, should we be able to get it on the Floor, to unlock that money and spend it on the cost of living. <BR /> <BR />Minister, have you had any conversations about whether your Department will be able to spend further Barnett consequentials, should there be any from the spring statement on Wednesday?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. I am pleased to say that my party was the only one in this Chamber that showed up to vote in favour of banning fire and rehire in the House of Commons last year. I am glad to see that others are now on board with that, and I welcome the fact that the Minister is saying that he is looking at legislation in the new mandate. <BR /> <BR />The Minister said correctly that labour and employment law is devolved here. Given the concern that one of the promises made by Brexiteers was that they would use Brexit to water down labour laws, will he make a pledge here that, even if the Tory Government in England decide to water down labour laws further, we will strengthen our employment laws in the new mandate?”
“I am trying to lighten the mood, Mr Deputy Speaker, in the final week of our mandate. I am delighted that three schools in South Belfast have been put forward. St Joseph's College, in particular, has been waiting a very long time for a new building. It is a brilliant school on the Ravenhill Road, and Malone Integrated College and Hunterhouse College are also great schools. <BR /> <BR />Minister, given that we do not have a sitting Executive and may not have one immediately after the election, are you certain that that will not in any way disrupt the capital projects being signed off and delivered?”
“In the final week of the mandate, we are having some very unfortunate hectoring from the Member for North Antrim. It is unusual for him to be so uncharitable.”
“First of all, I am in the unusual position of being able to say that I fully agree with my constituency colleague from South Belfast: it is great to see Hunterhouse College, Malone Integrated College and St Joseph's —”
“Richness and diversity does not take away from us, it adds to us. I only wish that the Members who proposed the motion —”
“— I am drawing my remarks to a close — but I come from Downpatrick. It is the week of lá fhéile Pádraig, and St Patrick is buried in the Church of Ireland Cathedral in Downpatrick. It is a Protestant cathedral, and that kind of diversity is what makes this place special. It is what makes this island special.”
“— a couple of them are heckling behind me — for Northern Ireland to remain in the United Kingdom is a perfectly legitimate and noble aim to argue for, but those who want to argue that will have to demonstrate how they will treasure Irishness in this jurisdiction. I am afraid that did not always happen in the past. I hope that some of those across the Chamber who take a slightly more constructive approach to making those arguments will see this motion for what it is: an attempt to divide people and drag us down into a dark past. <BR /> <BR />I represent South Belfast, a gloriously diverse constituency —”
“It is a Paisleyite provocation to try to divide us. Do you know what? The Irish language is for all of us. It is for everyone on this island and everyone in Northern Ireland, whatever our background. I say that as someone who did not do enough Irish in school. I finished early. I want to rediscover the Irish language, but I cannot claim to be a fluent Gaeilgeoir at all. However, the motion matters to me. <BR /> <BR />Looking forward, those of us who have a constitutional aspiration in this place are going to have to get real about the offer that we make. Those of us who aspire to a united or new Ireland will have to explain to people not just how our new constitutional proposition will tolerate Britishness in our new Ireland, particularly the Britishness of this part of the island of Ireland, but how we will treasure and celebrate it.”
“Often, we interrogated the Finance Department on spending in this place in a constructive way together, but it really is sad that two serious, intelligent men have, for decades now, devoted their politics to this kind of stuff: the politics of division.”
“Give me one second. I hear one of the signatories to the motion heckling from behind me. <BR /> <BR />The explanatory memorandum states that there are no additional costs associated with operation of this rule: no additional costs. This is a modest step forward, but the two Jims, with whom I have sat on the Finance Committee for the past two years, decided days away from an election to make hay with it. In many ways, it is sad, because, as I said, I have sat with Jim Allister and Jim Wells on the Finance Committee for the past two years, and, although I share very little in common with them politically, we have often worked together constructively. <BR /> <BR />They are both intelligent, shrewd men. They know what they are doing.”
“I will not give way, because you had long enough, I am afraid, Mr Buchanan.”
“All that they mean is that forms for registering a marriage, civil partnership, birth or death can be produced in English, in English and Irish, or in the Irish language. Mind you, the original forms themselves that have to be filled out still have to be filled out in English. It just means that they can be produced in Irish and that people who are Irish speakers or who treasure the Irish language can have those forms, which is a very modest step forward in this place. <BR /> <BR />I will refer to the explanatory memorandum. Whatever has been said about the cost, which is a relatively modest cost, let us be honest, for the software, the Department is quite clear about the operation —”
“<BR /> <BR />For that reason, I have genuinely found it impossible to believe that, 25 years on, we are still having debates such as this one, not about an Irish language Act, which we should be debating, but about a very small, modest piece of regulation: the Marriage, Civil Partnership and Civil Registration (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2022. The regulations went through the Finance Committee, which I sit on with the two Jims, the Statler and Waldorf of the Northern Ireland Assembly, who tabled today's motion. <BR /> <BR />The regulations went through in November. Now, days away from the end of this mandate, we are debating their annulment. Let us look at the background. The regulations do not mandate that people can go through all the processes that they want as Gaeilge.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I do not often start my remarks in the Chamber as Gaeilge, but I do it today for obvious and important reasons that I will set out. <BR /> <BR />I cannot believe that we are debating this motion today, or perhaps I can. Perhaps it is all too believable that, in 2022, we are debating a motion as preposterous and disgraceful as this one. Next year, unfortunately, I am going to turn 40, so I am now or very soon will be a middle-aged man. I was barely in my teenage years when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. That was nearly a quarter of a century ago, and it enshrined in law the importance of Irish language and culture, and, indeed, of Ulster Scots.”
“There were some legitimate questions about the previous clause 5: the potential unintended consequences and, indeed, its potential ambition about website operators and the social media universe. It is a shame, however, that the serious harm test was removed. Nevertheless, I very much hope that the Bill proceeds speedily to Final Stage and that, in the last few days of this Assembly mandate, it passes and goes onto the statute book. Other than saying that we will support the amendments, I have no further comments”
“I will not speak for very long at all. We support the amendments, most of which are technical or tidying-up, as the Bill sponsor said. I was not aware of his past in refuse collection. However, given his estimable career in journalism, it is good to hear that his CV is as balanced as that. We do not have a problem with any of the amendments, some of which are very technical while others are tidying-up amendments because of the removal of the previous clause 5 around website operators. <BR /> <BR />As I was not able to stay after finishing my remarks at Consideration Stage, I wanted to say that my party and I are disappointed that the serious harm test was taken out.”
“As Stephen Dunne mentioned, many of the microbusinesses that we are fortunate to have in Northern Ireland are exactly the kind of employers who want to do right by their employees when something like this happens. The Bill puts those obligations into statute. It provides important new rights for workers and clarifies the obligations for employers. It will allow the Department to go away and draft the regulations. Many of the amendments will give the Department flexibility in how it drafts those regulations and ensure that the Bill is fit for purpose. <BR /> <BR />Assuming that the Bill sponsor will not raise any particular objections to the amendments, we are happy to support them. I very much look forward to speaking on the Final Stage of the Bill in the next couple of weeks and getting it on to the statute book.”
“It will put into statute their obligations and, indeed, their legal rights as employers with regard to providing safe leave for staff who are experiencing domestic abuse. As Caoimhe Archibald, the Committee Chair, pointed out earlier, there is a clear statistical basis for that. Indeed, if you talk to any major employers' group or trade union, they will be able to tell you that the time that is lost through dealing with issues as tragic and awful as domestic abuse is a problem for businesses. The Bill will not just create a new right for workers who are in that terrible situation but clarify the responsibilities and rights for businesses. Fundamentally, that is a good thing for small businesses.”
“It is important to put on record here that the flexibility that the Bill sponsor has shown on commencement allows us to say clearly in the Chamber that, although we hope to get it on the statute book in the next couple of weeks before we break up for the election, that does not actually mean that it will commence overnight. The purpose of the Bill is to mandate the Department to go away and draft regulations and then consult on them, including with small businesses and microbusinesses, on how they work. Therefore, while we want to get it on the statute book quickly, it does not mean that it will place a new burden on businesses overnight. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to say that, not only will that not happen overnight, rather than being a burden on businesses, the Bill will provide helpful clarification for them.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a whole range of other amendments, all of which are either constructive and helpful in clarifying the Bill's purpose or technical and legal in nature. I will not go through them all. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Bill sponsor for meeting my researcher and me to talk through her view of what the amendments do. We had a useful conversation on the question of commencement. The commencement part is a really importance principle, because there has been a relatively small amount of commentary about the idea that the Bill might impose a burden on small businesses. I think that one of the trade bodies has written about that.”
“It requires the Department to make regulations, but offers it a degree of flexibility in making them. The Department's amendments add to that and retain that principle of flexibility whilst embedding the core principle of creating a legal right to paid statutory leave for domestic abuse. Amendment No 2 allows the Department flexibility in the future to update the definition of domestic abuse in clause 1, which, I suppose, was more specifically defined in the Bill's original draft, but can evolve as a result of the amendment. <BR /> <BR />In addition, amendment No 6, as it has been pointed out, including by the previous Member to speak, Mr Dunne, who is not in the Chamber, clarifies that the days of leave to which workers are entitled do not have to be taken consecutively in one block.”
“<BR /> <BR />As has already been said, there is a large number of amendments, but I think that it is fair to say, unless the Bill sponsor wants to correct me, that there is relatively little controversy on any of those amendments. Indeed, there seems to be broad consensus that, in many places, they improve the Bill. The Minister has detailed what his amendments do, so I will not go through them all again in exhaustive detail. I will just touch on a couple of them to highlight why we support them. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2, which the Minister tabled, chimes, in a sense, with the broader principle of flexibility in the Bill. I commend the Bill sponsor for her approach to constructing a flexible Bill, which, since the beginning, has not been rigid.”
“I am pleased to speak in the debate on the Consideration Stage of the Domestic Abuse (Safe Leave) Bill. As Deputy Chair of the Economy Committee, I echo what the Chair of the Economy Committee said in, first of all, paying tribute to the Bill sponsor for her hard work and the professionalism with which she has brought the Bill forward, and to the Minister for the constructive way in which he has engaged on the Bill and for tabling the amendments, all of which we will support. Hopefully, the Bill is an example of a constructive, progressive piece of draft legislation that can be expedited through in the last days of this mandate and will have an extremely positive impact on workers' rights more generally and, specifically, for people who are in the difficult position of needing to take leave from work in order to deal with domestic abuse.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Would he accept or concede that passing the Bill today will not prevent the creation of a single education system at some point in the future? It is not as if the Bill, which has provisions for one sector, will prevent a UUP Education Minister from progressing a single education system, should the UUP hold that ministry in a few months”
“<BR /> <BR />On Saturday, the Irish rugby team, historically an institution that has brought people on this island together rather than divided them, will be playing England. I am sure that some of us will be watching. They will be kicking, rucking and scrumming to move the ball a little further down the pitch into the English half. There has been a fair bit of rucking and scrumming on the Bill in public and in private. If it passes, however, the Bill will move the ball in this divided society just a little bit further on, so I am pleased to support it.”
“<BR /> <BR />By the way, I have not mentioned the other profound injustice in our education system, which is the archaic and unjust testing of children at 10 and 11 and which leaves us with some of the worst educational outcomes and inequalities in these islands. Today, however, we are talking about a modest step forward in one vital area. In 2022, many parents want to make a positive choice in favour of integrated education. I was able to make that choice, as my son goes to an integrated preschool. There were positive choices that I could have made in the nearby schools in the controlled and maintained sectors, but I made that choice, and the important point is that I was able to make that choice because of where I live. The Bill should help to make the choice to go integrated a little bit easier, and that is a good thing.”
“Our job is to legislate for a better future, not simply to mitigate a difficult past. Many of us are parents, but all of us were children. Hard though it might be to believe, looking around the Chamber, I know that everyone here went to school once. None of us wants to think that the choices that we make as parents or that our parents made for us were somehow intolerant or divisive. They are not, and they were not. Parents and, indeed, school leaders, can make choices and educate children only inside the education system that they are presented with and only inside the education system that we present them with. Our job, as leaders, is to make the system better. That requires courage and leadership.”
“They say that those institutions never discriminated on the basis of religion. They argue that, effectively, they were and are state schools open to all. <BR /> <BR />Many who support the traditional maintained schools will say that their existence was not simply a product of Church dominance but of the post-partition minority tradition seeing Catholic education as not just a repository of Irish culture and history, which was largely repudiated by a single-party Unionist Government, but a source of solidarity, dignity and advancement at a time when this state did not readily offer those things to the minority Catholic population. <BR /> <BR />Again, there is truth in all those historical perspectives, and we should acknowledge rather than fudge it, but we are now in 2022, not 1922.”
“Mr Beattie talked about schools that are naturally integrated. If I had had a moment to intervene, I would have asked whether those schools offered the Irish language or whether Gaelic games were taught. I would ask people who make the same arguments about maintained schools how history was taught and how religion was treated in those schools, because we have to be honest with one another about what we mean by mixed versus integrated. <BR /> <BR />I want to talk about the deep historical and communal issues that we have. Let us be honest about them in the Chamber, because, ultimately, those are what we are talking about. Many who support the traditional controlled schools do not feel that, in truth, integration applies to them or their schools, and we have heard that said today.”
“<BR /> <BR />In recent weeks, I have spoken to other school leaders who stress the diversity of their schools: a controlled primary in Rosetta and a maintained non-selective secondary, St Joseph's College. I want to affirm their work, their leadership and their wonderful schools, but I also have to be honest and say that my constituency and those schools are not representative of the whole of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />On the deeper historical questions of separate education, we need to be honest. Today, I heard Mr Beattie and others talk about natural integration. As I said in my previous remarks, I have celebrated schools that are diverse and mixed, but that is not the same thing as a school with a truly integrated ethos. I say that in no way to denigrate schools that are not integrated.”
“I want to come on to talk about the issue of what is called natural integration: being diverse with regard to not only the traditional communities but the new communities that come to South Belfast from all over the world and enrich us. Fane Street Primary School, Holy Rosary Primary School and Botanic Primary School, among many others, are diverse schools. They are full of not just Protestants, Catholics and others but children of colour and children who do not speak English as a foreign language. Technically, however, they are not integrated schools. I would not be representing my constituency if I did not pay tribute to the work that they do.”
“It is important that the supporters of integrated education, its opponents and people who say that they support it but are perhaps less fulsome when it comes to the actuality of supporting integrated education all need to be honest about these things. As we get closer to the practice rather than just the theory of integrated education, sometimes, even the most broad-minded people have their moments of concern and a feeling that they are being judged negatively. As a supporter of integrated education, I think that it is important to address those concerns and not to dismiss them. <BR /> <BR />In South Belfast, many controlled and maintained schools are already very diverse. Many of them would sincerely argue that they have high levels of integration despite not being formally integrated.”
“Far from being elevated above others, the integrated sector lags behind and is simply not a choice for many parents across the region. Any Bill that seeks to specifically support one sector is, by definition, singling it out for attention. It is worth saying that the Good Friday Agreement, to which most parties in the Chamber are still committed, singled out integrated education as an important sector in need of promotion. <BR /> <BR />I want to tackle some of the deeper questions of narrative and perception around integrated education. Let us be honest: that is where much of the concern lies.”