Matthew O'Toole
South Belfast · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“I appreciate my colleague's giving way. Unfortunately, I was not here for all of the Minister's remarks — like her, I have been in the Chamber for a lot of today, so I had to pop out and attend to some other business. I presume that the Member will agree that these provisions could be more properly included in the Sentencing Bill.”
“Clearly, however, the regulatory and enforcement regime for all those watercourses and marine environments is way out of date ecologically and, indeed, economically.”
“We learned about the antics of Jeffrey Donaldson that were not criminal — so far — only after his conviction. Reporters have been able to go and find that information and people have been able to speak — felt able to speak — because Mr Donaldson has been sent to prison, convicted of appalling crimes, and is therefore less likely to seek r…”
“We are pleased, in broad terms, to support it at Second Stage. We welcome the move towards an approach to fisheries management that is ecosystem-based rather than narrowly species-based.”
“We were robust in opposing those who were not willing to deal with the nutrients action plan, for example, which should have been a core part of dealing with Lough Neagh. Of course, the farming industry needed to be engaged, and the Minister has been doing a lot of that work recently.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In just a few hours' time, the House will go into recess for more than two months. There are two outstanding and grave matters that the public in Northern Ireland want us to deal with, but we are walking away, so I want your advice on Standing Orders.”
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“Exactly. You do not even need to go to a funfair to hear about it. <BR /> <BR />Does the Minister think that the Loughs Agency's statutory responsibilities should be broadened to include Lough Neagh in order to align all the things that I know that he wants to make happen around it?”
“If they want to have a conversation with me, I think that I can think of one off the top of my head. In any case —.”
“It is interesting to hear that the Minister is looking for solutions to partition. I am happy that I have one that I can sit down and chat to him and his Alliance Party colleagues about any time.”
“Minister, I welcome your robustness on Lough Neagh and other matters. In the days after that meeting, the EU passed its Nature Restoration Law. We still do not have one in Northern Ireland, but, in the South, they have signed up to those targets. Will you agree with, support and work to implement at least alignment of those targets North and South? We know we are effectively in exactly the same place on biodiversity loss across Ireland. Will you support at least those targets going into law here?”
“Minister, this question specifically relates to Belfast. I welcome Michael Stewart's appointment. Right in the middle of the Cathedral Quarter, which is our key hospitality district for not just Belfast but the entire region, a huge stretch of dereliction has been facilitated either by default or design over the past couple of decades. I asked the First Minister about that in questions to the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Will he work with others in the Executive to deal with that issue in order to find a way of recovering that part of Belfast, which is known as the Tribeca Quarter, from dereliction, should Belfast City Council not be able to progress it?”
“First Minister, I appreciate those general answers, but I was asking specifically about Tribeca. North Street is a disaster. Members of both our parties, including, I think, you, have met the developers. If Belfast City Council and others cannot progress the project up to and including the acquisition vesting of all or part of that site, are you willing to step in and, on behalf of the Executive, take the necessary steps, including, potentially, using financial transactions capital, to acquire all or part of that site so that we can overcome the specific dereliction in that part of the city, which is really letting us all down?”
“Can you give us a clear timeline for when we are going to get an update?”
“First Minister, I welcome the fact that you are going to meet the board. Obviously, we now have junior Ministers for meetings, and those meetings are happening, but it has also been the case that the members of the board of the Maze/Long Kesh Development Corporation, with all due respect to them, are, effectively, getting paid £6,000 a year to have meetings. That is a decade of that site largely lying unused.”
“We need to do our jobs and give those young people a reason to come back.”
“We have created huge economic opportunities since the Good Friday Agreement, but we still export far too many of our young people. Part of what drives them away is the sense that our politics and society have not moved on. In the new Programme for Government, it would be hugely welcome if the Minister for the Economy and the Minister of Education could work together to produce a strategy to, first, increase the number of undergraduate places here and, secondly, encourage and incentivise those who have left to come back. There are huge reasons for us to be positive about the future.”
“I appreciate that. <BR /> <BR />I am not a Minister; I do not hold ministerial office. My job is to be the leader of the Opposition. David, you — through the Chair — completely mischaracterise our motion as not having any solutions. It specifically calls on two Ministers to reduce the number of students leaving these shores. That would include raising the number of undergraduate spaces. That, by definition, is a solution. I am sorry, but my job is to be leader of the Opposition not to do the jobs of the Executive parties for them. Our motion includes specific policy challenges. If the Executive parties do not want to face up to the extent and depth of those challenges, that, I am afraid, is for them. <BR /> <BR />This society has moved on enormously in the past 26 years.”
“Those industries need skilled people, but the rest of our economy needs them too. Too many of our most qualified young people are leaving to study and not coming back. There are huge challenges. <BR /> <BR />I give way briefly, because I will get an extra minute.”
“Our highly selective education system, which tends to favour the better off — many of those who are better off send their kids to university across the water, and those kids never come back — has profound economic and social consequences for this society. Those who do not face up to that are kidding themselves. Profound challenges are created, as Pivotal has found. <BR /> <BR />John Fitzgerald and Edgar Morgenroth, two economists, have studied the productivity consequences, as has the Productivity Institute, which is a relatively new institute, of which Queen's is a partner, of our levels of losing young people. There are real economic consequences. We have lots of great industries in Belfast and across the region, such as the cyber and creative sectors. The Minister will have engaged with those industries in his few months in the job.”
“I will come on to the question of those who do not want to go through higher education, because their economic contribution is just as important or, in many cases, more important than those who study at university. However, every motion cannot cover every related topic on every subject, so it is not a fair criticism that the motion does not explicitly mention apprenticeships. <BR /> <BR />The Pivotal research has shown clearly the dire economic consequences of our losing highly productive, motivated young people. Mr Brett talked about our high-performing education system. It is true to say that we produce many graduates who get lots of As in their A levels; that is not the same thing as an effective education system. If it were, our overall levels of educational attainment would be much higher.”
“We are not simply cheering one another on; we are not cheerleaders. We are here to debate and interrogate serious public policy challenges. The number of young people who leave here and feel that they cannot come back is a serious public policy challenge. <BR /> <BR />I will touch on some of the important research that has gone into the motion. Pivotal is a relatively new think tank in the North that has examined in some detail the negative economic consequences of the large numbers of undergraduates and school leavers who leave Northern Ireland. We know that a university's worth of young people study across the water, and there are large numbers who feel that they cannot come back.”
“I have personal experience because I left in 2001 to study as an undergraduate in Scotland and did not return until 2020, when I became an MLA. It gives me a unique insight into the mindset of people who leave, whether they wish to leave initially or not, and the barriers that keep them away. <BR /> <BR />We need to be bluntly and, at times, brutally honest with ourselves about the consequences of our young people leaving in such numbers and the barriers that cause them to stay away, which is why I was intrigued to hear that one criticism of our motion was that it is too negative. We specifically talk about solutions, but, when we talk about a serious public policy and societal challenge, it is important to recognise that we are not here for the power of positive thinking. It is not a booster competition.”
“I have two specific personal connections or reasons to be particularly interested in the subject. I will come on to a couple of comments about the text of the motion in a little while. <BR /> <BR />First, I represent South Belfast, and my constituency office is on University Street. I am a stone's throw from Queen's University, our largest university and oldest institute of higher education, which, along with Ulster University, as most of us agree, does not have enough capacity or space to accommodate the needs of our society, economy and young people. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, I am one of those who left and came back. I am happy to be corrected, but I think that I am the only serving Member who left the region and was away for such a long time.”
“I am intrigued as to why the Member thinks that we are being negative in a motion that is about a public policy problem. It talks specifically about a strategy to reduce the number of people leaving Northern Ireland. That is the solution that we are looking for. We want to increase the number of student places and encourage more people to stay.”
“Following useful conversations with the Minister and others, the amendment is not moved.”
“I am really pleased that we had what was, I hope, a fruitful debate. There is a clear view that we can benefit from extending those brands on a cross-border basis and that we can have a plural offer to tourists who come here. In my closing remarks, I will, however, underline the point that we waste £2·5 million a year subsidising long-haul flights out of Belfast that have not been here for more than half a decade and are unlikely to be here in the near future. Most people who come to the North come via Dublin Airport. That will continue to be the case into the future. Let us give them a bright, shining, diverse and fascinating tourism offer on this island and in this part of the island, but let us not kid ourselves that we will replace Dublin Airport as a major international air hub any time soon, because we are not.”
“It is nothing to be afraid of, and that is what our motion is all about. Indeed, the city of Belfast is, in many ways, an example of that. It is the second city of the island but also a city where an enlightenment happened in the 18th century. It had radical Presbyterians who set a new course for the whole island. That history is fascinating and entirely, as it were, cross-community and cross-border. We should work to maximise the benefit of the richness of all those brands and identities.”
“That will be a distinctive part of the tourism offer in this part of the world that people will not get in the same way in Cork or Dublin. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we have to have a distinctive regional brand. There will be different parts of history to celebrate. Someone who is spending part of the day in Downpatrick, looking at St Patrick's grave and the ancient neolithic history in that part of the world, could, that afternoon, drive up to Mr Honeyford's constituency and visit Hillsborough Castle, which is about an entirely different period in our history, both the Anglo-Irish and, indeed, the modern-day links with the royal family. That is plurality. The richness of this part of the world — this part of the island and other parts of the island — is something that we should celebrate.”
“I know that the party leader, Gavin Robinson, is a big gentleman, but I am not sure that we should encourage every tourist who arrives in this part of Ireland to embrace him literally. Certainly, I am sure that voters in East Belfast will be encouraged to do so for the next wee while — but I digress. <BR /> <BR />It is not impossible to extend brands such as the Wild Atlantic Way and Ireland's Ancient East while celebrating and amplifying what is specific and local, and, yes, that will include what is specific and local to Northern Ireland. That does not, in any way, compromise locally distinctive identities and brands. In Question Time earlier, the Communities Minister talked about Ulster Scots and the contribution of the Scots Irish and Ulster Scots to North America and the creation of the United States.”
“Although we are not wholly supportive of all of it, I acknowledge that specific progress has been made in ameliorating the ETA. It is, however, important to send out a message from the Assembly that we reject it outright. It can be ameliorated, but it is a fundamental risk to the whole island. Having a few days of grace, as it were, is not as good as having the thing gone entirely, so I encourage the Executive to come to a position to oppose it and, ideally, to persuade or at least lobby the incoming UK Government to get rid of it. <BR /> <BR />I notice one slight anomaly in the DUP amendment, which states that Northern Ireland's distinctive tourism brand is "Embrace a Giant". I think that it is missing a word; I think that it is supposed to be "Embrace a Giant Spirit".”
“<BR />It is critical that we deliver on the overdue promise of linking up the Wild Atlantic Way to the ancient city of Derry, the glorious north coast and all the history that goes along with it and, indeed, linking Ireland's Ancient East with the rest of the east of the island. It is, frankly, absurd that Ireland's Ancient East does not include the site of St Patrick's burial or all the monastic and neolithic sites that populate that part of the island. The amendment to include gorgeous places such as Fermanagh in Ireland's Hidden Heartlands is, of course, well intended, and we will support it. <BR /> <BR />I will touch on a couple of comments that were made by colleagues. There is much to agree with in the DUP amendment.”
“I am pleased to speak in the final SDLP Opposition day motion of the term. Soon, in a week or two, we will be in recess. <BR /> <BR />The purpose of the motion is to highlight and underpin what we share on this island and the potential to share more in a way that maximises tourism potential, but I will underscore what was said by the two Members from South Down — my party colleague, Colin McGrath and, before him, Andrew McMurray of the Alliance Party — which was that sustainability and sustaining those landscapes is as important as maximising the benefit from them.”
“on subsidising and trying to get long-haul routes out of Belfast International Airport, and it has not worked. Although I do not disagree with the aspiration, it would appear that it is pretty hard to do, and we could therefore direct our energies elsewhere, but I acknowledge the aspiration.”
“I think that some colleagues know what I am about to intervene on. Is the Member aware that, in the past four years, we have spent £10 million”
“Minister, I welcome any progress on building the Ulster-Scots brand in America. I have been to Andrew Jackson's house outside Nashville. The Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scots contribution is huge. It is cross-community and cross-border, as is the Irish language, because, of course, it predates the partition of Ireland and lots of the divisions that have emerged since. Obviously, we are waiting on an Irish language strategy, and that is determined by statute. Will you, please, inform us where that is at the minute, acknowledging, as I have, the importance of the work on Ulster Scots?”
“That would not compromise or undermine anyone's constitutional position; quite the opposite, in my view. <BR /> <BR />I commend today's first Opposition day motion to the Assembly. I thank everybody for their constructive contributions, and I very much hope that the motion will pass.”
“I also point out that the use of article 14 and the making of representations to the NSMC is not to prioritise the NSMC over any other body. Any other body that exists under the Windsor framework or even that exists more informally is welcome. I would like to see those of us in the Chamber having observer status in the EU Parliament and being able to make representations there. I see some raised eyebrows across the Chamber: I recognise that that is not universally popular, but I am up for any opportunity that allows us to input or improve our input into how the protocol works and, ultimately, to maximise the economic benefits. Those economic benefits are real; we enjoy them already. Think how great they could be if there were political stability here and proper buy-in.”
“I acknowledge the fact that the Minister is engaged on the all-island economy and has committed significant time to cross-border work. He will recognise that we will want to hold him to his word on some of that stuff and to keep corresponding with him about the implementation of the specifics of the motion, which calls specifically for an action plan to be provided to the Assembly later in the year. We would like to see the Minister provide that in some form and will ask him for that. Let me be clear, however, that I welcome his intent and that we look forward to that intent being implemented through action.”
“We are a dual place, in many ways. Dual market access reflects that dualism and the fact that we face both ways. We face both ways politically and culturally in terms of allegiance. Why not derive an economic benefit from it? <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that the Minister has appraised and is supportive of the broad principles of the motion. We have sought to be constructive in opposition the whole way through our time here.”
“I do not think that it is very likely, in part because significant trade-offs would have to be made. An enormous amount of political courage and political bandwidth would be required for it to happen. <BR /> <BR />The truth is — if people were honest with themselves, they would know this — that the only meaningful way back into the EU — to be clear, this is not what today's debate is about — is constitutional change on this island and a new Ireland. That is my position. I recognise that others may differ from it, but I think that it is the only realistic one. To be clear, that is not what this motion is about. The motion is not about the constitution; it is about our current constitutional position and maximising the benefits that we have and can see from dual market access. As I said in my remarks, we are a complicated place.”
“David Honeyford talked about the benefits, and he outlined the Alliance Party's position. I reassure him that the SDLP has been talking about this for some time too, but I am glad that we are on the same page. It is important that parties can collaborate on such matters. <BR /> <BR />Since it came up on a couple of occasions with my dear colleagues to my right, I want to touch briefly on the point about us rejoining the EU. As someone who worked in Whitehall for years and worked there in the middle of the Brexit years — that is, in large part, why I am here now — I think that, for the foreseeable future, it is strikingly, if not vanishingly, unlikely that the UK will rejoin the EU. I genuinely wish that it were otherwise for a whole range of reasons, including personal ones.”
“He is also right when he says that political certainty and some stability here are critical to us being able to leverage investment. <BR /> <BR />I welcome very strongly the input of Steve Aiken, who acknowledged that there is a degree of balance in our motion. It is important to acknowledge that, as Steve Aiken said, for a significant period, IDA Ireland had been strikingly focused on the needs of the Republic. I do not dispute that at all. In fact, I think that I said it in my opening remarks. It is the case that IDA Ireland and Invest NI have operated as competitors and rivals. Clearly, that does not have to be the case. There is the potential for partnership, and our motion is all about delivering on that sense of partnership. <BR /> <BR />There were a number of inputs from other Members.”
“There are cattle that graze in County Monaghan and County Fermanagh. That is not an unusual thing. She will be aware that there are cross-border farms, and, of course, things such as our dairy industry are entirely cross-border. Whether or not you believe in constitutional change, you cannot pretend that the two jurisdictions on the island of Ireland are on opposite sides of the world; they are not. <BR /> <BR />Eóin Tennyson pointed to Almac, which is a striking example of a regulated company, as he said. It is the case that those that operate in highly regulated environments, including pharmaceuticals, are exactly the kinds of companies that are well placed to benefit from the protocol, because they have substantive regulatory operations and may want the political and regulatory certainty that comes from our protocol arrangements.”
“By the way, some of the points that are made repeatedly about the lack of democratic input are and were designed to be answered specifically by article 14 of the protocol, which offers a role for the North/South Ministerial Council, a body that is democratically accountable to Members of the Chamber. I am afraid, therefore, that that point just does not stand. <BR /> <BR />She talked about mutual recognition. As has been said by the Minister, mutual recognition has been, with the greatest possible respect, virtually laughed out of court by any serious economist or trade specialist, particularly in relation to the island of Ireland, which has very specific needs and requirements. It is important to say that Mrs Erskine represents Fermanagh and South Tyrone, a border constituency.”
“She is coming back into the Chamber now: perfect timing. Deborah Erskine said that the UK internal market is important and that our motion did not reflect that. Au contraire: it states that the movement of goods from east to west is critically important. It also states that the UK Government will have a role in dual market access and maximising its benefits. That is therefore an unfair reflection of what our motion states. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Erskine also said that article 14 has nothing to do with benefits from the protocol. I do not think that that is true either. I do not think that there is any fair reading of what article 14 of the protocol states. It does not suggest that it could not have the role that we outline.”
“I would appreciate it if he would respect that many of us are offended by the very fact of Brexit itself, but I want to move on and make some remarks in relation to the broader debate. <BR /> <BR />Our motion was long. We made the Clerk read out an entirely long motion because we wanted it to be detailed, to be specific and to have multiple aspects and clauses to it. What does that mean? It means that the motion offers real opportunity not just for maximising dual market access but for creating a substantive plan for dual market access and how we leverage it and benefit from it. I want to reflect on a couple of the comments that were made. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that Mr Delargy acknowledged that this was a unique opportunity for the North. I will touch on some of what Deborah Erskine said.”
“If you believe in the perfect fetish of sovereignty at all costs, and that is the thing that you focus on exclusively, and you think that is how you define identity and citizenship, I accept that. I have also accepted and acknowledged that, for many unionists, the protocol has presented difficulties. It would be nice if the Member would acknowledge that, for many of us, Brexit presented profound challenges to how we see ourselves as Europeans, and, for many of us who believe deeply in an open border on this island, it was profoundly offensive. He constantly pushes the idea of constitutional perfection. We do not have constitutional perfection here, because we are a complicated place. I believe in a new Ireland without a border on it; he does not. I respect his position.”
“I will come on to some other remarks, but I will give way briefly to Mr Allister.”
“I am pleased to be able to wind up on today's debate, which was fulsome and constructive; many interesting points were raised. Before I come to my substantive remarks, it is important to say that, in taking advantage of dual market access, there is no detriment to anyone's constitutional perspective. That is important. Believing in dual market access and supporting the potential for dual market access does not encumber or get in the way of anyone's constitutional aspiration, despite what Mr Allister and others say.”
“I will be brief. Thanks for giving way. The Member is right to say that we are one of the worst performers in these islands, and we have been for generations now. However, is it not also the case that, since the protocol came into effect, we have outperformed most other UK regions, which indicates that our preferential trading arrangements are doing some economic good for this region?”
“I have a genuine curiosity. I thank the Member for giving way. Sadly, from my point of view — in a previous life, I tried hard to keep the UK in the EU — it appears vanishingly unlikely that the UK will rejoin the EU. Are there any other routes that he can think of and that he would like to endorse here today for how Northern Ireland can rejoin the EU? I cannot think of any.”
“<BR /> <BR />The protocol's economic opportunities are no panacea, but they are, finally, a unique opportunity to turn the dual nature of this complicated place into meaningful economic potential for our people. Let us not waste that chance. I commend the Opposition motion to the Assembly.”
“As I said, our motion also acknowledges the importance of the east-west axis in making such opportunities work, whether by resolving outstanding issues with moving goods east to west or by ensuring that, unlike under the Tories, a new British Government are willing to task their Department for Business and Trade with properly helping signpost and sell our dual market access. <BR /> <BR />In early 2021, the SDLP wrote to that UK Department's predecessor, alongside the Irish Government and the EU Directorate-General for Trade. At the time, we did not have a local Minister who wanted to take that opportunity. If the rhetoric is to be believed, we do now, but we need to see a plan, on paper and with clear actions and timelines, ideally in a Programme for Government with a budget to match.”
“To give an example, if a US or Continental pharmaceutical company were wishing to avail itself of the protocol benefits of a location in the North, that would need not deter investment in the South. Indeed, it might enhance the investment potential — such potential that I am choking on my words with excitement — of existing Southern sites, given the potential for cross-border value chains. <BR /> <BR />The recent review of Invest NI and the appointment of an IDA Ireland veteran as its chief executive officer offer the chance to open a new chapter.”
“<BR /> <BR />We will, however, need much more than simply some extra funding and aspirations for InterTradeIreland. It needs a detailed work programme with agreed targets and, yes, bureaucratic structures for delivery and accountability. We in the SDLP believe that that should logically start with an agreed working group comprising IDA Ireland, which is known as one of the world's most successful investment agencies, and Invest NI reporting jointly to Ministers, North and South. For too long, on both sides of the border, those agencies were encouraged to view each other, narrowly and unhelpfully, as competitors rather than partners. <BR /> <BR />The protocol offers a specific benefit to goods moving from Northern Ireland, but its benefits can be felt all over the island of Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />Briefly, to anyone who thinks that we are ignoring the east-west axis: our motion is deliberately drafted so as to underline the importance of the east-west axis. By definition, supporting the dual market access benefits of the protocol is an acknowledgement of the fact that the east-west economic access is vital for Northern Ireland. Of course, our motion says that we want collaboration with the UK Department for Business and Trade to help to realise the benefits. I genuinely commend the Economy Minister for showing a commitment to growing the all-island economy as part of his economic vision and to getting additional funding for InterTradeIreland, which was deliberately left to wilt as a bit of a Cinderella among economic development agencies by some of his predecessors.”