David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“To further strengthen attendance at fine default hearings, I propose a power to issue an arrest warrant in circumstances of non-attendance so that, when police encounter an offender whom they know to be in default, they will be able to arrest them and bring them to court forthwith or bail them to appear at a future default hearing. <BR /> <BR />There are safeguards attached to the use of the power that ensure that an arrest warrant can be issued only in certain circumstances.”
“As a consequence, paragraph (b) of clause 18(6) is omitted. Finally in respect of vehicle seizure, a minor and technical amendment to correct a small drafting issue in clause 6 is offered by amendment No 7. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 16, 17 and 18 introduce new clauses 9A, 9B and 9C to allow the court to issue an arrest warrant for individuals who do not turn up for their fine default hearing. Currently, the fine default hearing process, under which offenders can be returned to court to have their default reviewed, can be frustrated by defaulters simply not turning up for the hearing. If the court is not satisfied that notice has been served, the case must sit in abeyance. The Bill will strengthen that process by moving from a notice-to-attend procedure to a summons process.”
“On that topic, further adjustment to the vehicle seizure provisions is made by amendment Nos 27 and 29 to address comments made to the Committee by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Examiner of Statutory Rules on the regulation-making powers in clause 18. The amendments insert subsection (3A) to provide that:”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 1 is a consequential amendment arising from my new clause 12A, the subject of amendment No 22, which I will speak to shortly. Instead, given the complexity of this section, I will speak to the amendments by policy topic, beginning with my changes to the vehicle seizure provisions. I will then proceed to the amendments tabled by Mr McCartney and colleagues and by the Justice Committee. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 8 to the vehicle seizure provisions at clause 6 introduces an additional safeguard to ensure that a vehicle seizure order should be made only if the value of the vehicle, if sold, is sufficient to discharge the sum owed, including the likely charges and costs of the sale.”
“It is also notable that this is the second successive detailed Bill in which the policy content at introduction and the significant number of amendments proposed by the Department have survived the Committee's scrutiny without significant impact. I am grateful for the Committee's support, although it is never without an element of challenge, which is exactly as it should be. Whilst the Committee is supportive of the Bill and my amendments, certainly in this group, it has tabled two amendments of its own: one in relation to the facility for clearing a fine through addiction or mental health treatment and the other in relation to the creation of an offence of disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress. I am sympathetic to the Committee's thinking on those and look forward to debating them.”
“1-30, 32-36 and 74-79. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Mr Speaker. Before dealing with the group, perhaps I could crave your indulgence a little to speak briefly about the progress of the Bill to date and, in particular, given that there are few other Members in the Chamber at present, to thank the members of the Committee for their assistance in progressing the work. In particular, I thank the Chairman and Deputy Chairman — Mr Ross and Mr McCartney — who have, as ever, displayed a significant commitment to ensuring that a complex Bill with a significant number of amendments has been scrutinised by the Committee and dealt with in a very positive way.”
“My officials have certainly discussed the issue with officials in DFP. I have not spoken directly to the Minister but, since he is sitting across the Chamber now, he may know about it. It is unfortunate that staff in the Legal Services Agency were not civil servants at the date when the Civil Service voluntary early retirement scheme came into place and were civil servants by the time the opportunities came through for other public bodies. That is extremely unfortunate. I am told that those are DFP rules, but I am continuing to press on it.”
“I think I can be very brief. I will just repeat the date — 29 January is the date for groups to apply through their PCSPs. If we can continue to take assets off criminals as successfully as we have done, then I hope we will have a significant amount of money in the fund for the next financial year.”
“Since we obtained the 50% of assets recovered for the Department of Justice after a slight disagreement with the Home Office shortly after devolution, we have distributed in the region of £3 million to a variety of different schemes aimed at fighting crime and the fear of crime. Many of those have been funded through partnership with PCSPs in a range of areas. We have also seen work done by the Youth Justice Agency, the Probation Service, and some of my direct responsibility areas. All of those are key issues that have ensured that the £3million has been put to extremely good use in fighting crime, fighting the fear of crime and antisocial behaviour, and making Northern Ireland a safer place.”
“The Department has made it clear that, in terms of the trial preparation fee, any payments made will be backdated to ensure that there is no reason why individuals should not return to work immediately. We should see that carried through if people wish to see justice being done.”
“I believe that, at the moment, there are in the region of 800 cases awaiting committal to the Crown Court, given the strike action that is being carried out by barristers. We will see exactly how that is resolved when barristers are willing to return to work. I know that the Lord Chief Justice has made significant preparation, which is being discussed with officials in the Courts and Tribunals Service, as to how cases will be listed when that is the case. I believe that those who talk about their concerns for vulnerable witnesses, for those who had offences committed against them and, in some cases, for vulnerable defendants, have an obligation to carry out their work.”
“I am not quite sure about the precise meaning of the word "dispute". In response to Mr Weir's question, he will be aware as, I think, most of the House will be aware, that the current position is that the High Court found largely in favour of the Department of Justice, apart from one minor fee for solicitors and a slight procedural issue under which Mr Justice Maguire did not strike down the rules that were made. There is an appeal against the judicial review by the Bar Council, and we will have to await the outcome of that. However, we will continue with the position that, even after these reductions, legal aid payments in Northern Ireland remain significantly more generous for barristers and solicitors than the payments in England and Wales, the most comparable jurisdiction.”
“I am glad that Mr Hussey recognises that particular point. It is also an issue where some of the work we have done, for example in promoting tracking devices in agricultural machinery, has helped fight that kind of crime, and it is not an issue that is solely confined to the Clogher Valley. Unfortunately, we have had, at times, reports of tractors stolen in County Antrim appearing in County Cork. So, there are major challenges, but part of it is around the prevention route just as much as the enforcement route. Enforcement applies within Northern Ireland and cross-border.”
“It is certainly an issue that can be highlighted if it is a key issue for ministerial attention. It is certainly an issue for operational attention.”
“I have passed on a request from the Minister of Agriculture that the DARD veterinary service be added to the operational group because it clearly is an issue, alongside things like food standards, food safety and environmental crime. We need to ensure that that work is done, covering not just the pure criminal justice system but a range of other issues.”
“When I meet the Irish Justice Minister, which I do formally on a twice yearly basis, we discuss a range of issues, more around the issue of organised crime and certain aspects of the way in which we can better learn lessons. For example, the last meeting had a significant presentation from those running victims' services, North and South. We then, under "any other business", discuss a range of key topical issues. Something like agricultural crime might well feature in that. I do not think that it has formally featured in the agenda at any point, though it is, of course, an issue that is being addressed by the new cross-border task force.”
“I am not sure whether Mr McCrea has had experience of having to pay for a translation into French, German, Spanish or something himself. I am not aware of the full pattern across Europe. Certainly, the pattern of charging for interpretation services is not common to the justice system or, indeed, other services like the health service in the United Kingdom. It is not something that I have been considering to date.”
“Again, whilst Ministers are expected to know quite a lot for topical Question Time, I do not think that it is realistic to expect that questions like that can be discussed. He talks about the cost of interpreters, and there are, of course, costs in the justice system for police station interviews and potential court proceedings. Those issues are determined on the basis of the individual's need. I do not carry around in the top of my head the figures for the total cost last year.”
“There are two different points there. It is certainly important that there is a police presence in every part of Northern Ireland. That does not necessarily mean having a building in every part of Northern Ireland. It is important that the police manage the resources they have in a way that ensures that front-line policing is protected, rather than preserving architecture across the region. <BR /> <BR />He refers to those who claim a right to police within the community, wherever they happen to be, and he is absolutely right. There can be no place for self-appointed thugs who pretend as if they are acting in the interests of the community when they are largely lining their own pockets. We need to ensure that that does not happen anywhere in Northern Ireland.”
“The specific issue of the use of police stations, which Mr Beggs highlights, is an issue for the Chief Constable. The potential disposal of unused police assets also falls to the Policing Board. None of it falls to the Minister of Justice.”
“I certainly accept that there is a perception to that effect. I think that part of that perception may have been the gap before we had the National Crime Agency fully operational in Northern Ireland, but now that it is fully operational, I hope that we will see significant work stepping forward. I hope to be meeting the new director general in the near future, and I will certainly be talking to her about the necessity of ensuring that we get the best possible use of the assets that the NCA holds in Belfast to assist a range of other bodies, North and South, against the kinds of crimes that Mr Irwin is highlighting, some of which blanket his constituency in particular.”
“The NCA, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the Revenue Commissioners, the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic and the Police Service will be key agents in working together in that fight against organised crime across the island.”
“Sometimes it is not possible to have in front of you all the statistics that Members would wish at a particular point. If Mr Irwin has particular questions, I will happily see that they are answered in writing later. There is no doubt that the National Crime Agency is very active in Northern Ireland. It is supporting the activities of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and it also, of course, has responsibility for assets recovery, which was not previously the case. It will be falling to it to carry out that kind of work in conjunction with not just the Police Service but some of the other UK-wide agencies. <BR /> <BR />The National Crime Agency will also be playing a role in the cross-border task force, which was recently established.”
“Mrs Cameron is now really asking me to prejudge the outcome of a report that is being commissioned independently to ensure that neither the Prison Service nor the Minister gives their opinion in advance of that independent result coming through.”
“The report on the fire at Erne House is near to completion, and it is something that I expect to see published in the near future. I have had a brief and informal meeting with the two governors from the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) who carried it out. I am assuming that the final report will be presented within the next few weeks, so it will then become possible to look at the full implications of that fire and the lessons to be learned from it.”
“I will be very brief, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I think that projects of this size always have possible difficulties, but, at this stage, the issue is for the Health Minister's approval to be given so that we can jointly present a paper to the Executive, which will then take decisions.”
“I hope that we will shortly be in a position to circulate the business case to Executive colleagues to enable them to take an informed strategic decision on the way forward for this project.”
“A training needs assessment last year identified a significant reduction in the projected number of training days, brought about primarily by budget reductions across the three services and the resulting impact on recruitment. In November 2015, the programme board delivered a revised outline business case that considers a range of options for the future delivery of service training, including basing some or all services training at Desertcreat. It includes a full economic appraisal of the shortlisted options and identifies a preferred strategic option. <BR /> <BR />The outline business case has been signed off by the accounting officers of the three services and the two Departments and is awaiting the Health Minister's approval to add to my own.”
“I am not sure what Mrs Kelly means by social factors, though I can guess. My understanding is that CPD carried out its work in accordance with the normal arrangements under which DFP operates. I am well aware of the concerns that have been expressed by a number of people that this has perhaps seen a diminution of the social care aspects — if that is the best way to put it — of the work that was done. It was an indication of the excellent service that was provided by Quaker Service, in particular, for very many years. It is an issue that I will address when I meet Quaker Service representatives in the near future and discuss with them the ongoing services that they will continue to provide to aspects of our custodial services.”
“Given the current financial difficulties, there was a reduction in the services that were included in the tender, which has made some difference to the services that are provided. The Prison Service, like other aspects of the Department of Justice, is under significant financial pressure. I think that Mr McKay is hinting at some of what might have been described as the extra services provided by Quaker Service and NIACRO, which were, in a sense, voluntary activity on the part of their staff and volunteers that took the contract into a better place. Unfortunately, the rules that we are required to procure services under do not easily allow for dealing with those extra points.”
“The contract for the provision of visitors' centres at Maghaberry, Magilligan and Hydebank Wood was awarded to PeoplePlus, and the contract commenced on 1 December last. As was the case with previous visitors' centre contracts, this tender was issued as an open bid facilitated by the Central Procurement Directorate (CPD) of DFP. This was tendered in line with the Public Contracts Regulations 2015. The bids received were evaluated by an independent panel in accordance with the advertised criteria. The most economically advantageous tender was successful.”
“There are very significant achievements. <BR /> <BR />Just this morning, I visited Magilligan prison, where I saw good work being done that is being used to educate young people from schools in the north-west area on the Holocaust. Wednesday is Holocaust Memorial Day. Prisoners, in their own time, did paintings and various bits of artwork. In one case, an old Nissen hut had the names of 600 people who died in concentration camps highlighted by prisoners putting their own effort and time into making that a suitable exhibition for training young people. It is an example of the good work that is being done, notwithstanding the challenges identified at Maghaberry last May.”
“Looking back at what has been achieved since the prison review team reported, we can report significant achievements, notwithstanding the fact that one report on Maghaberry in May last year clearly highlighted issues of concern. We have seen major changes through the refreshing and retraining of staff and the work that transformed Hydebank Wood Young Offenders Centre into Hydebank Wood College, the first such transformation anywhere in the UK. There has been a very positive inspection of Magilligan prison. We have seen work done on step-down houses for men, with the reopening of Burren House on the Crumlin Road, and for women on the Hydebank site. We have detailed plans, subject to capital expenditure being available from DFP. A significant effort is being made in education in consultation with Belfast Met and North West Regional College.”
“Mr McGlone raises an interesting point, but the only bit that I can think of relating to the POA and the previous report is the fact that the three POA representatives who came to the Committee admitted that they had not read it, which made it somewhat difficult for them to discuss its contents. I do not meet any of the unions that represent staff in the justice family or, indeed, bodies like the Police Federation unless I am requested to, and I have not had a request from the POA. My understanding is that there will be regular, ongoing discussions in each of the three institutions between the POA and management staff, as is appropriate to deal with issues of concern there, but it is difficult for the Minister to know exactly what the state of discussions with the POA is when he is not invited or requested to meet it.”
“I cannot, off the top of my head, tell the House when I last met the Prison Officers' Association to discuss Maghaberry, but I can say that it was shortly after it last requested to meet me to discuss such issues. The Member asked whether Maghaberry was providing a safe environment: I certainly believe from the conversations that I have had with a number of people that the situation in Maghaberry is better than it was. If I said anything more than that, I would come perilously close to second-guessing the official report of Criminal Justice Inspection, and I think that the House and I should wait for that to come out in the next two or three weeks.”
“On Mr Milne's first point, I spoke to Mr McGuigan while the second week of the inspection was under way, and I am not sure that the fact that I have not spoken to him in the10 days since is particularly a fault of mine, given the expectation that it will take in the region of three to four weeks for his report to come out. The Member highlighted the director general's reference to relationships between prison headquarters and the previous senior management team in Maghaberry, and that is clearly an issue of concern. That is one of the issues that was addressed by the refreshment of the senior management team.”
“Given the importance of the reinspection of Maghaberry prison, I spoke to the chief inspector of Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland during that process. As Members will be aware, the reinspection was completed on 15 January. I have not spoken to Mr McGuigan since then, and I await publication of the report.”
“Exactly how that is best done is still under consideration.”
“I will refer briefly to one point that was made. Mr Maginness referred to 40% of the recommendations not being implemented: it is the case, of course, that some recommendations require agreement beyond the criminal justice system, including agreement in the Assembly. If Mr Maginness could assist me in persuading certain Members of the House to agree to raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility, it would help us to make progress. <BR /> <BR />The Member makes a perfectly valid point about legal advice and the youth engagement clinics, on which concerns have been expressed. At every stage of the process, efforts are made to ensure that children and young people are made aware of the position, including the implications of decisions that they take, and to ensure that it is done in a way that uses child-appropriate language.”
“Ms McGahan correctly highlights the concern, which would be the case if there had been a complete loss of focus on those issues as opposed to a potential slight loss of momentum. Part of that is due to looking at some issues in rather greater detail than had been anticipated and taking a slightly longer timescale — for example, with statutory time limits, the legislation was more complex than was initially believed, so it was necessary to take longer to get it right. A degree of progress is being made, despite all the pressures that the Department is under. Those will come through in the coming months.”
“<BR /> <BR />There will be a particular focus on the complex, cross-cutting recommendations where cooperation and partnership across organisations and Departments are necessary. Commitment from within and beyond the criminal justice system has been evident from the start of the scoping study, with key stakeholders being fully engaged at steering group and subgroup level. I am, therefore, confident that we can achieve significant progress in delivering on the remaining youth justice review recommendations, either directly or indirectly, through that work.”
“The CJINI report recognises the significant progress that has been made in recent years and the challenging operational environment in which implementation has been achieved. However, it is clear from CJINI's assessment and my Department's assessment that more needs to be done, which is why, in May 2015, I commissioned a scoping study of children in or on the fringes of the youth justice system. That work is being undertaken with the aim of making improvements across the whole system to deliver greater benefits for children and improving their long-term outcomes. It will build on many of the procedural and structural changes already achieved through implementation of the review recommendations, and CJINI has welcomed the scoping study as a means of furthering progress on youth justice issues.”
“I thought that, when I included the Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon PCSP, I would have covered at least something for Members for Upper Bann. The reality is that we will at times see hotspots in criminal activity, and those can come and go at relatively short notice. The specific issue of how we address that kind of criminal activity is a matter for the Chief Constable and not for the Minister of Justice. The Department's responsibility is to support the efforts aimed at fighting crime and the fear of crime of bodies like the PCSPs and others that they work in partnership with. I have visited most of the PCSPs over the last few years and have seen a variety of work going on. A lot of that is on the importance of prevention, as opposed to dealing with crime after it has happened.”
“As I said, although there have been a number of incidents, we have seen a significant reduction, and I believe that that has been brought about by the good partnership working that we have seen across a number of agencies.”
“I appreciate Mr Rogers's point that, sometimes, the fear of crime is significantly more to be concerned about than the actual likelihood of it. The Member asked what was being done to highlight successes by the police: that is, to some extent, an issue for the Police Service. I certainly know that most local papers seem to have fairly good coverage of the courts in their area when we get to the point of convictions. It is also important to highlight the work being done generally under the community safety strategy on community safety issues and fighting crime and fear of crime at that low level, to ensure that people do not get unnecessarily fearful, whilst encouraging them to take appropriate steps to ensure that they protect themselves and their property as appropriate.”
“<BR /> <BR />The work of the rural crime partnership has resulted in the development and delivery of a range of initiatives that aim to tackle rural crime — for example, a funding package to encourage farmers in theft hotspots to fit security devices to their machinery. We will soon pilot, with Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon PCSP, the use of a forensic marking scheme to help to prevent and detect theft from farms. I understand that the Newry, Mourne and Down PCSP has undertaken initiatives to address rural and agricultural crime, including the delivery of a freeze-branding initiative aimed at tackling livestock theft, the distribution of GuardCams to farms and homes in rural and isolated areas and trailer marking.”
“My Department's community safety strategy contains a commitment to make Northern Ireland, including rural communities, safer by reducing the opportunities to commit crime. The Department of Justice works closely with the PSNI, NFU Mutual, the Ulster Farmers’ Union and DARD through the rural crime partnership to deliver on that commitment. <BR /> <BR />The partnership receives detailed quarterly updates from the PSNI’s statistics branch on levels of agricultural and rural crime. That allows key stakeholders to continue to monitor crime trends and to allocate resources accordingly. I welcome the fact that agricultural-based crime has shown an overall downward trend since 2010-11, when 937 offences were recorded. At 626, the level in the 12 months from October 2014 to September 2015 is the lowest recorded.”
“I am slightly lost, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker; there are questions on rural crime later in the listing. I am not sure whether I ought to go into rural crime at this point in the context of the work that is being done in relation to the night-time economy in our town centres.”
“The answer to that is a bit like the one I just gave to Mr McCrossan. How the individual schemes are run is an issue for each scheme, with support from the local PCSP. The Department does not prescribe what should happen. <BR /> <BR />One of the key issues that we are able to address through the PCSP managers' network is the sharing of good practice to ensure that people learn of how other people have run schemes if they are intent on setting up a scheme such as that run by Omagh Safer Streets and that we use the expertise that is being built up in different parts of Northern Ireland for the benefit of every part. I do not tell people what they must do, but my Department encourages people to learn best practice from each other, which is what is contributing to such successes.”
“I welcome Mr McCrossan to his first justice Question Time. It is not for my Department to have plans to roll out the scheme, because it was devised locally, supported by the PCSP and funded in part by PCSP funding and assets funding from my Department. All that I can do is to encourage local people to find local solutions to problems such as this, but I certainly will do that because it is one of those issues where good work that is being done in a number of schemes could be replicated in other parts of Northern Ireland. I am keen to see the Department supporting it as best it can.”