David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“Issues are being looked at to ensure that the Prison Service funds the meeting of public transport services to take people to the prisons, rather than running the complete distance, and I hope that a modest increase in the charges levied will mean that it is possible to maintain the services and leave them relatively unaffected, though not on as many days.”
“I am allowed a slight smile, Mr Speaker, as I had a suspicion about what Mr McCann might ask about. He referred to the withdrawal of funding. To be fair, it is not a withdrawal of funding; it is a reduction in funding. Over the summer, detailed work was done on looking at the usage of NIACRO buses travelling to the prisons, the level of need and what an appropriate charge was. At this stage, it is likely that we will be able to continue to maintain grant aid to support NIACRO running buses on the longer runs — from Belfast to Magilligan and from the Derry area to Maghaberry — but, frankly, some of the shorter runs, given the use made of them, are not viable.”
“That is the sort of management issue that I hope will be addressed shortly by the Lord Chief Justice. I trust that we will also see a positive outcome to the discussions over the next few weeks, meaning additional resources to fund the legacy inquests properly, alongside the work of the HIU, because that will be essential to providing comfort to individuals and families who have been waiting many years for results.”
“I understand that the senior coroner is due to retire at the end of October. The expectation was that the Lord Chief Justice would assume presidency from the beginning of November. The Member rightly raises the issue of concerns among a number of families about the delays in holding inquests. It is unfortunate that, in a number of cases, inquests have been listed without resources being provided either for the investigative function before the hearing or for the precise time for the Coroners' Court to be held.”
“As Mr Kelly said, the senior coroner is due to retire shortly. I have been discussing with the Lord Chief Justice the issue that we provided for in the last Justice Act of his assuming presidency of the Coroners' Courts. I hope that that will happen shortly. As I have said previously, he has also appointed an additional County Court judge to lead on some of the more complex inquests, particularly legacy inquests. He also has the power, which I recently raised with him, to appoint temporary coroners who would be able to carry out some of the additional work, given that, as Mr Kelly highlighted, there is an illness issue among some of the coroners as well as the pending retirement.”
“It is not only the Assembly that needs to be able to move forward but this society needs to be able to move forward from those who would seek to subvert the rule of law, those who claim political motivation to run drug empires and those who continue to behave in a way that is utterly unacceptable. I agree with the Member's final point about the association between some who are democratically elected politicians in this place and their association with some of those who maintain links to criminal and paramilitary groups, particularly over issues like the so-called Twaddell camp. It really is time that those who point the finger about the behaviour of paramilitaries on one side look at the people with whom they at times consort.”
“However, Mr Dallat is absolutely right: more than one paramilitary group has created difficulties in Northern Ireland generally over the years. There certainly appears to be a level of activity by those who would claim to be unionist in some shape or form, whose activities are just as much criminal and terrorist as some of those who claim republican motivations.”
“I sympathise entirely with Mr Dallat's point. I have not been screaming from the rooftops about unionist paramilitaries. I have not raised the issue at the Executive. However, I certainly have regular and frequent discussions with the Chief Constable, the Secretary of State and others who have particular responsibilities, whether dealing with organised crime or issues that, frankly, cross over between criminal activities and national security activities. That includes those who claim to be unionists and those who claim to be republicans. I certainly discuss those matters frequently. <BR /> <BR />On the resources issue, I have responsibility for the police, and I am determined that adequate resources be given to the police and to other aspects of the justice system.”
“However, to suggest that it is my role to explain the words of the Chief Constable and his responsibility is just the same as expecting me to explain the role of the Secretary of State. Those who want to know what the Secretary of State or the Chief Constable should be doing in current circumstances really ought to contact the Secretary of State or the Chief Constable and not ask somebody who has a very specific role in the devolved sphere, not in connection with national security and not in connection with operational matters, but who has the job of doing policy and legislation work in the Assembly of providing the finances and leaving other people to carry out their responsibilities just as I do not expect them to carry out mine.”
“Just as I said that I do not deal in operational matters, which are the responsibility of the Chief Constable, neither is it my role to explain what the Chief Constable means when he makes statements. However, it seems to me that he made a fairly clear distinction when he said that the Provisional IRA is not involved in paramilitary activity in the sense that it was during the period of the conflict. That does not make murder acceptable. That does not make what has been happening in Belfast — the murders of two men in recent months — acceptable in any way. <BR /> <BR />I condemn those murders utterly, and I have no hesitation, in the case of any criminal activity, in asking anyone who has information to assist the police in catching the perpetrators so that the justice system can play its proper role.”
“<BR /> <BR />If Mr Nesbitt is going to start talking about people ducking their responsibilities, he really ought to look at his actions and those of Danny Kennedy.”
“Mr Speaker, I could understand it if some Members of this House and, dare I say it, Members with a nationalist background who do not approve of Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom, were to raise the kind of question that has just been raised by Mr Nesbitt and Mr Allister, but it really is slightly bizarre that unionists do not understand the concept of the national security of the United Kingdom being the responsibility, funnily enough, of the Government of the United Kingdom. They do not understand the basis on which justice was devolved in 2010, they do not understand the role of the Minister not interfering in operational issues, and they do not understand the entire way in which the system functions.”
“The Chief Constable has also indicated that he does not have information at the moment to suggest that the murder of Kevin McGuigan was sanctioned or directed at a senior level. <BR /> <BR />I believe that we need to be guided by the Chief Constable’s view, based on the evidence and intelligence available to him. That, of course, does not make what happened in any way acceptable. Murder is not acceptable in any circumstances.”
“My assessment as Justice Minister is, naturally, based on the views of the Chief Constable. He is on record as saying that the police do not see the Provisional IRA as being involved in terrorism and that:”
“I am afraid that Mr Allister is falling into the same trap that Mr Nesbitt fell into a few minutes ago. The Minister of Justice does not have responsibility for national security matters. Of course the Minister of Justice receives general briefing from the Police Service, not all of which is given on a basis other than in ministerial confidence, but the Minister of Justice does not have access to the national security information on which the Secretary of State might have responsibilities to make judgements in the future. That is an entirely different issue, and I am really surprised that neither of the gentlemen understands the current legal position.”
“I am already on record as saying that I was aware of the Independent Monitoring Commission's (IMC) final report in 2011, which stated that the Provisional IRA was committed to peaceful means and had moved away from paramilitarism, but that some members and former members were active in non-terrorist types of crime.”
“I appreciate the point that Mr Attwood is making. No indication has been given to me of a unilateral intention to legislate, but, of course, the proposals in the Stormont House Agreement require legislation this autumn in Westminster. The important thing, I believe, is to see the five parties engaging together to ensure that we put a collective view to the Westminster Government as to how that legislation should be carried. Unfortunately, the decisions that have been taken so far in the implementation group have not yet resulted in a firm, agreed proposal going to the Westminster Government. That is why I believe that it is important that we continue to engage in that format to ensure that agreed proposals are put forward.”
“My understanding, in terms of those who were invited to meetings, is that there was an invitation to those who represented victims to involve other victims' groups in attending those. I attended to welcome members to one of the three workshops, which was held in the DOJ. There was very substantial attendance at that. But it was not intended to be a full-scale consultation process, because the five parties meeting in the Stormont House implementation group had not agreed to a document being issued for consultation. That is why engagement has been largely on a bilateral basis as well as those three workshops. That continues, and if there are groups that have not yet had the opportunity to engage with my officials, I invite them to write in and arrange such consultation.”
“Whilst the DOJ will not hold any further workshops, the legacy unit continues to engage with stakeholders on an ongoing, bilateral basis as the legislation to introduce these elements of the Stormont House Agreement is finalised.”
“Under the Stormont House Agreement, my Department is responsible for the establishment of a new historical investigations unit (HIU) and improving the legacy inquest function. The HIU will be an independent body to take forward investigations into outstanding Troubles-related deaths. My officials have been engaging with stakeholders and victims' groups throughout this process. In order to advise a wider group of stakeholders on the DOJ proposals, the legacy unit held three engagement workshops in early August to set out the policy position of the DOJ in relation to these initiatives and to allow stakeholders to raise any queries.”
“Sorry, Mr Speaker; Mr Nesbitt does not seem to understand the difference between the roles of the Secretary of State for national security matters and the Minister of Justice in the devolved arena.”
“The issue is for the Chief Constable to deploy the resources that he has. Members are well aware of the fact that the Police Service has reduced resources this year compared with last year, but how those resources are used against the different demands on the Police Service are operational issues for the Chief Constable. He has not suggested to me that that particular murder requires him to have any more resources than were already planned for. Clearly, that is the kind of issue that can be kept under review.”
“I also believe that we need to ensure that we create the atmosphere in which an organisation that is said to not be active but clearly still has members who have engaged in criminality should fade away entirely in line with what we wish to see, particularly those of us who supported the Good Friday Agreement and its concept of moving to a different society.”
“I think that Mr Maginness has put his finger on exactly the issue. We have all seen the comments made by the Chief Constable and the assessment that he has made. It is clear from what he is saying that he does not believe that there was a sanctioned murder of Mr McGuigan, but it is also clear from the statement that he made that he believed that members of the Provisional IRA and other criminals, including dissident republicans, were involved in that murder. That is something that I believe requires the attention of all of us to ensure that we provide a political solution that moves away from these kinds of troubles leading to death and destruction and loss on our streets.”
“Let me first recognise that the family of Kevin McGuigan is suffering a grievous loss, as is the family of Gerard Davison. The way in which these men were brutally murdered has shocked the entire community. These were cowardly and despicable acts, and those who committed them or assisted should face justice. There can never be any justification for murder. I was, of course, briefed by the Chief Constable in general terms. We need to keep in mind that there is a live investigation ongoing, and the detail of the investigation is an operational matter for the Chief Constable. My officials and I are also in regular contact with the Secretary of State and her officials.”
“That is why I have emphasised that there have been significant improvements in some cases but sadly not everywhere.”
“I think that Mr Rogers raises an entirely valid point. It may not be so much a matter of redefinition as slightly more accurate recording. We should be aware that, whilst, in every case, assaults are serious if there is an intent behind them, some of them are not described as "serious assaults". Therefore, we should not suggest that there is a very significant number of major incidents, but, undoubtedly, there has been a small number of serious incidents and a rather larger number of minor incidents. The important issue is to ensure that we provide the necessary support to staff, that we deal with issues like crowding to address some of those problems with frustration that have led to assaults and that we get an overall picture where we make improvements in the current situation.”
“That sort of change has freed things up, created a better atmosphere and produced better use of staff. Progress has been made, but there is undoubtedly still a lot to do, particularly at Maghaberry.”
“I would never be satisfied that we have all the resources that could be profitably used in the Prison Service, no. Am I satisfied that we have seen significant progress in good work being done by the Prison Service? Yes. Some Members had the opportunity to visit Hydebank Wood recently and will have seen the very significant progress in the regime being offered to both the young men and the women in Hydebank Wood. Good work is also being done in Magilligan. Progress has been slower in Maghaberry. That is the reality, but all that is predicated on living within the budget, living within the staffing numbers that we have and seeking the best form of management. <BR /> <BR />When I became Minister, there was, for example, no free movement of even the lowest-category prisoners in Maghaberry.”
“The opening of an additional block and the movement of people out of some of the crowded old square houses has produced a better atmosphere and less difficulty, but the Prison Service will have to continue to manage within the limited budget that it has to ensure that staffing ratios are at the best possible level consistent with living within that budget.”
“Mr Swann talks about low staff morale. There is no doubt that particular issues have resulted in, for example, significant sickness levels in Maghaberry in particular but much less so in Hydebank and Magilligan. That may be attributed to low morale. That is why, at leadership level in Maghaberry, work is being done to deal with issues like sickness levels and to ensure that there are better staff ratios. However, as I said in my principal answer, the key issue is crowding. That appeared to be the principal reason.”
“<BR /> <BR />Additionally, the Prison Service has recently commissioned a pilot to evaluate the effectiveness of body-worn cameras for prison staff to prevent violence and assist in the management of disruptive prisoners. Initial results at Maghaberry suggest a significant deterrent effect. NIPS has improved its mechanisms for recording assaults and analysing the factors involved and maintains a high level of vigilance in respect of prison violence. It also engages constructively with the Prison Officers' Association on a regular basis to discuss staff safety.”
“Any assault in prison, whether it is on a prison officer or a prisoner, is unacceptable. There have a total of 282 assaults on prison officers on duty in prison establishments in the four financial years beginning in 2011. From an operational perspective, the Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) has taken forward detailed analysis of assaults on staff and has found that the greatest contributing factor is crowding. A significant number of prisoners were moved from crowded residential areas in 2014 to address that issue. The use of accommodation is kept under regular review, and the prison population is dynamically managed in that respect.”
“I appreciate Mr McGimpsey's question. I am not sure that the Minister of Justice can say that he is working towards a full implementation, and it is not the role of the Alliance Party leader to argue at this rostrum that he is arguing for the full implementation. The Minister of Justice is seeking to ensure that the DOJ fulfils its responsibilities, principally around the HIU and legacy interests, and that we play our part in getting a joined-up system so that the Stormont House Agreement can be put into place as fast as possible.”
“There are issues of the very significant number of legacy inquests currently listed and the work that needs to be done by the judiciary to ensure that those are put into order and proceeded with as fast as possible.”
“Of course, Mr Eastwood raises, quite rightly, the issue of appropriate personnel. The question was originally around investigating officers. There are then issues around the coroners or judges acting as coroners. There are significant resource implications that require the provision of the finance to do it. There are, of course, other roles that are provided for under the Stormont House Agreement that may require people with similar skill sets working in the historical investigations unit (HIU), for example. I cannot give any guarantee, but I can guarantee that the DOJ will do all it can to ensure that we get the process under way.”
“It is not just a matter of remedial action being required; remedial action is being taken, including, for example, the appointment of an additional County Court judge to enable judges to take over some of the more complex issues of coronial investigation, particularly the legacy inquests. That work is being done. As we look to the retirement of the current senior coroner, the assumption of the presidency by the Lord Chief Justice will provide leadership for the Coroners Service, and that will help us to move forward. Clearly, a number of issues, including the illness of coroners, have created difficulties in the past.”
“I am discussing with the Lord Chief Justice a number of measures to improve the performance of the Coroners Service, including the appointment of investigating officers and the Lord Chief Justice assuming the presidency of the Coroners' Court. As the Member will recognise, progress in dealing with the past, including the legacy inquest process, can be made only in the context of the full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement and the provision of the associated funding.”
“I am certainly happy to give the assurance to Mr Dallat that this is an issue that, like many other issues across justice, is kept under review. There are certainly issues as to how we define minor convictions. I know that concerns have been expressed where somebody has two or three minor convictions that have a cumulative effect, which would not be the case if there were a single one, but there is a real issue about how we balance the rights of the individual to live a life as normally as possible in the future and ensuring that we protect vulnerable members of the public. I am happy to keep it under review, but it will not be easy to take the decision one way or the other in every case.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Justice Act 2015 makes provision for anyone who considers that a non-court disposal should be removed from their certificate to appeal to an independent person. That independent person can require the Department to remove such non-court disposals from a certificate if he considers that they are not relevant or ought not to have been disclosed. I propose to commence the provisions early next year.”
“Disclosure requires a balance to be struck between the rights of the individual and the need to protect vulnerable people. Access NI is required by statute to disclose information in relation to informed warnings, cautions and diversionary youth conferences in standard and enhanced checks. Those non-court disposals are considered to form part of an individual's criminal record. To ensure a proportionate approach before disclosure, such disposals may be filtered — that is, removed — from the certificate if they are considered to be old or are for offences that are considered minor. Informed warnings are filtered after one year; youth cautions and diversionary youth conferences are filtered after two years; and adult cautions are filtered after six years. Disposals are not filtered for violent, sexual or drug offences.”
“That is what we are seeking to do, within the financial constraints that we have been put under.”
“Again, the evidence from the proposals that were put forward was that adequate court sittings could be provided, in those courthouses proposed to be retained, to meet the needs of court sittings in those proposed for closure. I do not believe that that will impinge on access to justice. <BR /> <BR />I am well aware how local councillors tend to view facilities in their towns or cities, but that is not the basis on which we can take a rational decision on how to fund the operations of the Courts and Tribunals Service in the years ahead. It is not the function of the Department of Justice to maintain historic buildings, as some have suggested; it is the function of the Department of Justice to provide a fit-for-purpose and modern justice system for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“That is all the more reason why we should be concentrating those court sittings in modern, fit-for-purpose courthouses.”
“To take the second point first: no, I certainly do not agree that the proposals will undermine access to justice. Justice may be slightly further away, but if it is in a better building with better facilities — for example, in order to segregate vulnerable victims and witnesses from the alleged perpetrators of crimes — then I believe that that will be a bonus for access to justice. <BR /> <BR />I have just heard the Lord Chief Justice give his annual speech for the start of the legal year, and, while he expressed his concerns, I note his acknowledgement that there are significant issues around finances that need to be addressed. For example, I note the good work that has been done by the presiding district judge, which is already resulting in a reduction in the number of court sitting days required.”
“I am aware of the concerns of a small number of people about a number of courthouses across Northern Ireland. The reality is that access to justice is not about having a courthouse in every town: it is about ensuring that we have proper, fit-for-purpose courthouses with modern facilities. <BR /> <BR />In the context of the financial circumstances that we live in, the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service, like other agencies, has to deliver significant savings in the coming years. That cannot be done by maintaining 20 courthouses for a population of 1·8 million; rationalisation is required. The important thing is to ensure that courthouses meet the needs of people when they get there, rather than having inadequate facilities in every town and village.”
“The consultation on the rationalisation of the court estate closed on 18 May. The responses to the consultation have been analysed, and advice will be submitted to me later this month. I will wish to carefully consider the responses and recommendations before reaching any conclusions.”
“That good negotiation and compromise has delivered results across the justice system generally and, in particular, in the Bill. I trust that the 11 members of the Committee, including Mr Somerville, will take part in that as we begin the work on the Justice (No. 2) Bill, which was introduced in the House this morning. <BR /> <BR />With that, I commend the Bill to the House and thank all Members for their contributions, not just this evening but over the months of scrutiny in Committee.”
“It is something that will hopefully be an example to others. I have no doubt that there are very few people outside watching this debate at 7.10 pm to take note. I take pleasure, however, from the fact that sitting beside Robin Swann is a new Member of the House who is to be a new member of the Justice Committee. I welcome Neil Somerville to his first justice debate. I hope that he has learnt the lesson of the constructive, positive engagement that his predecessor Tom Elliott was part of as well.”
“We have seen amendments that were produced at a late stage and not well drafted being rejected, and we have seen other amendments that came in either through the Committee or individual Members who discussed them early carried through. That shows the good work that has been done. Mr McCartney made the point that the original Committee inquiry into services for victims and witnesses was a perfect example of how that has carried forward in large measure, though not quite to the abolition of PIs entirely, into this Bill. We welcome that that has been done. It is an example of positive constructive work. <BR /> <BR />The balance, as Alban Maginness highlighted, is between scrutinising and challenging, which can always be an issue. However, I think that we have a reasonably good balance between the Committee and the Department in that respect.”