David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“I think the Member has repeated the same point a number of times, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that the allocation that was given in the October monitoring round was to cover the pressing needs across the Department, and it made reference to policing costs and legal aid costs. As the House will be well aware, legal aid is a matter that involves a contractual obligation to pay, at this stage, and I had no option but to take a significant section of the £29 million to pay that. Had it been the case that the Justice Committee had moved more speedily on some of the reforms that I sought to introduce, we would be in a slightly less difficult position.”
“<BR /> <BR />The current level of spend cannot be maintained, and fundamental change will be required. That is why I commissioned the access to justice review part 2 to inform future developments. I expect the review to report by the end of the financial year.”
“In 2010-11, for example, there were 1,742 cases disposed of in the Crown Court. That rose year by year until it reached in excess of 2,600 cases in 2013-14. While that increase in disposals has had a positive impact in reducing the backlog in the Crown Court, it inevitably increased the cost to the legal aid fund. <BR /> <BR />It will not be possible to bring the cost of legal aid within budget solely by cutting fees, and it has been necessary to start to identify further options for reform. I have put forward proposals for reform of financial eligibility tests for civil legal aid, and I am consulting on a range of measures that would reduce the current scope of legal aid. I intend to ensure that the provision is sufficient to meet human rights obligations and to protect the most vulnerable in society.”
“With your permission, Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 2 and 15 together. <BR /> <BR />The annual cost of legal aid continues to exceed the budget that was allocated on devolution. The budget for the current financial year is £75 million, with expenditure on legal aid estimated at £109 million. That has created a significant pressure on the budget of my Department, and I have had to make cuts in other areas to meet that demand. I have introduced a number of reforms to reduce the level of fees, without which the cost would have been higher. I will shortly implement further reform to Crown Court fees, and my officials are engaging with the legal profession on reform of fees for civil legal aid. I plan to introduce new civil fees from 1 April next year. <BR /> <BR />As I previously told the House, legal aid is demand-led.”
“I appreciate Mrs Kelly's point. I am not sure that I can claim a unique distinction in terms of mental health, but there is no doubt, as we look at the issues that come from the legacy of the past, that there are individuals who have suffered and who may well have their mental health concerns exacerbated by the failure to fund adequately investigations into the past. There is no doubt that that will continue to create problems. It is a further reason why we so desperately need to do something about the past and address it in a comprehensive and joined-up way that meets the needs of victims.”
“In the face of that, it was impossible to do anything other than accept an inevitable cut in the funding for policing. I have been doing what I can to protect the front line and will continue to do so, but it is not possible to protect it fully on the basis of the cuts that were imposed.”
“The outgoing Chair of the Justice Committee certainly makes a good rant of it, but the reality is that we are not depriving the police or protecting other people at their expense. The largest area of expenditure in the Justice budget is policing. Therefore, it is inevitable that there will be an impact on the policing budget, given the scale of the cuts that were imposed on me by an arrangement that changed details in-year and was the will of the majority of Executive members. Effectively, the DUP and Sinn Féin members of the Executive imposed an in-year cut without any consultation and changed the rules for this year entirely. In the face of that —”
“I accept the point that Mr Maskey makes, although I remind him that the Office of the Police Ombudsman was the only spending area in the Department of Justice that received an increase in its funding in cash terms in the past four years and that it is subject to the lowest cut this year, of only 4·4%. We are doing all that we can to protect that. <BR /> <BR />If he wishes to make a wider point about dealing with the past, I entirely concur with him. We desperately need different ways of dealing with the problems of the past, and that hopefully will emerge from the inter-party talks. It is absolutely clear that, funded for the present, the justice system cannot meet the needs of the past when it comes to the concerns that we have for victims to ensure that, where possible, they get justice, and if they do not get that, they get the truth.”
“Policing oversight bodies play an important role in maintaining public confidence in policing and in challenging and supporting the PSNI to improve the quality of policing. However, they are not immune from the current financial position, which necessitates all areas of the justice system making cuts. All arm’s-length bodies have been asked to assess the impact of cuts of 10% and 15% against opening 2014-15 baselines. I will continue to protect the front line as far as possible. I have provided additional in-year funding to the Policing Board and the Office of the Police Ombudsman through the October monitoring round to address pressures in those bodies.”
“Principal Deputy Speaker, I thank the Committee Chair, as ever. It is always good to record progress made between the Minister of a Department and a Committee. I entirely endorse the points that he made about the rather artificial nature of the debate that we are required to have, and I confirm that my aspiration accords entirely with his: that we will shortly be spared the difficult task of progressing this order annually. With that, I commend to the House what, I hope, will be one of the last such orders.”
“That accords with the statement that was made by the Prime Minister on 13 March, following consideration of recommendations made in the thirty-sixth report of the Senior Salaries Review Body, that the Government have decided to increase judicial salaries by 1%. The Department of Finance and Personnel has approved the increase. <BR /> <BR />At this stage, I wish to thank the Justice Committee for its customary careful and detailed consideration of the draft order. It is with the Committee’s support that I bring the draft order before the House. I commend it to the House.”
“I trust that this item of business will be somewhat shorter than that which the preceding Minister was subjected to. <BR /> <BR />Under the provisions of the Lands Tribunal and Compensation Act (Northern Ireland) 1964, my Department is responsible for the administration of the Lands Tribunal and determining the remuneration of its judiciary by order, a draft of which must be approved by the Assembly. The tribunal currently consists of a president and one other member, both of whom are appointed by the Northern Ireland Judicial Appointments Commission. <BR /> <BR />The draft order that is before the House provides for an increase of 1% in the annual salaries that are payable to members of the Lands Tribunal for Northern Ireland, effective from 1 April 2014.”
“I repeat my thanks to the Committee, its officials and my officials for the constructive way that suggested amendments were dealt with. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is a major step forward, but it is only another step in a major programme of reform of legal aid. It will provide a firm foundation for the future, and I commend it to the Assembly.”
“I believe that the revised proposals represent something that is entirely robust and is sustainable in a way that will ensure that we do not continue to have problems in that area. <BR /> <BR />I am grateful that the Committee last week agreed with a set of proposals for criminal work, although it is unfortunate that it took rather longer than the Chair or I had hoped. <BR /> <BR />Almost universally, what seems to happen at this stage of any justice legislation is that I praise my officials, Committee staff and Committee members, and we should accept that. I am not sure whether it is pertinent to repeat Alban Maginness's comment about getting things wrong earlier today, but we have certainly got this right. We got things right over the weeks and months that the Committee was carrying out its role.”
“That will be considered in the second part of the access to justice review. I am not sure that "shied away from", as opposed to "sought to avert", given the difficulties that have arisen in other jurisdictions, is quite the right phraseology. <BR /> <BR />On the effectiveness of the commission, it is clear that its current operation suffers because it does not have the advantage of the economies of scale that it would have if it was part of a bigger or wider organisation. Legal aid administration costs have doubled since the Legal Services Commission was set up. That is not sustainable. The agency will be tasked with bringing those administration costs under control. <BR /> <BR />On the wider issue of costs, let me say in answer to the Chair that the proposals for further reforms to civil legal aid will be with the Committee within weeks.”
“The important issue is that we will work to ensure proper independence and accountability. <BR /> <BR />The issue of directions was highlighted. It is absolutely clear that, first, they will not relate to any individual case; secondly, they will not relate to the scope of cases; and, thirdly, any directions will be published, and there will be complete openness in how that is done, subject to Assembly scrutiny of the proceedings as they go through. So I believe that we have the answered the points raised by a number of Members. The changes made to subordinate legislation, which came through at Consideration Stage after discussion between the Department and the Committee, were significant. <BR /> <BR />There was a suggestion that the Department was shying away from reforming the scope.”
“My problem is that I am not quite sure that his wording gives reality to what we all want to see.”
“I thank Members for their comments. At this time of the evening, I also thank them for their brevity. <BR /> <BR />We have an extremely good Bill in so far as it relates to legal aid. The Bill's safeguards demonstrate a commitment to ensuring that legal aid is managed robustly and independently by the new director of legal aid casework. There will be support from the Department, from the Minister and from officials, but individual decisions on legal aid will be a matter for the director. The independence of his role is guaranteed completely, and, as was highlighted in the debate, the role of the appeals panel will ensure that. <BR /> <BR />We had good proposals regarding independence. I note that Mr Elliott hopes that I will agree with what he has proposed about independence. I always wanted the same level of independence as Mr Elliott.”
“I am grateful for the Member's positive comments. I just want to inform him that the legislation will require that the chair of the panel is a lawyer. The other two posts will be open to but not necessarily filled by lawyers.”
“I believe that the creation of the agency will help to improve the governance of public spending and will facilitate the delivery of legal aid reform. Integration with the Northern Ireland Civil Service will allow for access to a wider range of skills and opportunities for staff movement and will provide greater opportunity to share services and make efficiencies through corporate support services. None of the changes will impact on access to justice or in any way restrict eligibility for legal aid, but they will lead to a more efficient and effective service that is in the interests of everyone. <BR /> <BR />I conclude by thanking those who have contributed to the work on the Bill, most notably the members of the Committee and its staff, and I commend the Bill to the House.”
“The agency starts a new chapter, but I would like to take this opportunity to look a little further ahead. The agency will put legal aid on a firmer footing in the Department and will allow us to look again at what we want to achieve through legal aid. In the coming months, I will bring forward further reforms to reduce costs. In light of the financial environment, that will inevitably include taking difficult decisions about the scope of legal aid. I have also commissioned the access to justice review part 2, which will help to set the agenda for the future. <BR /> <BR />There is clearly a need for more rigorous financial control, governance and accountability arrangements in respect of legal aid and a need to bring costs under control, including improving the efficiency of the delivery body.”
“I hope that they will also have the support of the Assembly as they ensure that decisions in that critical area are fair and transparent.”
“The safeguards include prohibiting the Department from issuing direction or guidance in respect of individual decisions; requiring any direction or guidance to be published; imposing a duty on the Department to ensure that the director acts independently when deciding an individual case; and the appointment of panels to hear appeals. <BR /> <BR />The role of director will be a challenging one. As well as decisions on civil legal aid, the director will take over responsibility from me for decision-making on the provision of exceptional legal aid funding in individual cases, for example the representation of next of kin at certain inquests, to comply with article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). The post holder will have support from me and the Department but not interference in individual cases or classes of cases.”
“Bringing legal aid closer to the Department will deliver improvements to budgetary management in line with Civil Service best practice, which I believe will lead to improved control over costs. I want it to be clear that I am only talking about controlling costs, not interfering either in individual cases or in the scope of legal aid. At the core of the Bill are provisions that provide safeguards on the award of civil legal aid. I have made it clear that the Bill does not in any way restrict eligibility for legal aid. Independence in respect of individual decisions is essential. There will be a director of legal aid casework to take decisions on the award of civil legal aid. The Bill contains safeguards to ensure the independence of the director.”
“Of course, the closure of the commission also marks a new beginning for staff. They will transfer to the new agency, becoming part of the wider Northern Ireland Civil Service. I am confident that they will benefit from the opportunities and the advantages that come from being part of the wider Civil Service. The Civil Service too will benefit from their experience and their knowledge. <BR /> <BR />Greater flexibility for staff is one benefit of the new agency, but there is a bigger prize. The legal aid budget has been subject to unacceptable overruns for some time. Forecasting has been a real problem. In the current climate, this approach is unsustainable.”
“As it is making way for the agency, I want to pay tribute to all those who played their part in the Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission. That includes board members, senior management, staff and members of the appeals panels. Since the commission was created in 2003, they have done their best to administer the increasing demand for legal aid and to do so in a way that is impartial, fair and reasonable. This has never been easy, and there has been no shortage of criticism of the commission. There will be a challenging period ahead as the commission continues to deliver its targets whilst preparing to make the transition to an agency of the Department of Justice. I want to put on the record now my gratitude to each and every member of staff for their hard work in difficult and often thankless circumstances.”
“I start by reminding Members that the Bill includes provision relating to Coroners' Courts and the role of the Lord Chief Justice, which, through the entire passage in the Assembly, attracted no debate previously. <BR /> <BR />On the important topic of legal aid, the Bill opens a new chapter in the management of legal aid by facilitating the creation of a Legal Services Agency. I believe that legal aid is a cornerstone of the justice system. We need a strong and independent mechanism to take decisions that adhere to the principles behind legal aid but take account of the financial realities. In line with a recommendation from the 2011 access to justice review, I believe that the new arrangements described by the Bill meet those standards.”
“If we are to move forward, to depoliticise the Speaker and to ensure that we get more workable structures for the future, we should accept that the deal made after the last election should stand.”
“I believe that it is incumbent on those of us who remain to follow through and ensure that that deal is carried through. <BR /> <BR />I have to say to unionists that we are about to go into a series of talks. One of the issues on the agenda is the structural arrangements and whether the precise architecture of the Good Friday Agreement, whether or not modified by the St Andrews Agreement, is what we need going into the future. One issue that concerns me greatly is the blocking mechanism in the House for so-called cross-community votes, which stops movement forward on so many occasions. If I am saying that, and unionists are using very similar language, they need to realise what blocking Mitchel McLaughlin would do today. It would be a clear reinforcement of why nationalism will wish to retain that blocking mechanism.”
“Regardless of what I say to Sinn Féin on issues like welfare reform or the National Crime Agency, I believe that there is a fundamental issue that the House needs to allow people from all parts of the House to take senior responsibilities. <BR /> <BR />I must say that I was slightly surprised when Dr McDonnell suggested that Speakers had come only from one section of the community. I am not sure whether my colleagues John Alderdice or Eileen Bell would have seen themselves categorised as unionists in quite that way. When we met after the last Assembly election, there was a clear understanding that the post was to move in this Assembly term. Regardless of William Hay's illness, it appeared that he was determined to be a man of principle and honour and to live up to that.”
“We have just paid tribute to our outgoing Speaker, and a key issue that was highlighted is the need for the Speaker to be seen as politically neutral and to distance himself from his previous party connections. There is no doubt that William Hay succeeded in doing that very well. There is also no doubt that, in recent weeks, Mitchel McLaughlin has clearly prepared himself for the role and has sought similarly to distance himself. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the deal that was struck at the start of this Assembly's mandate should be adhered to because it is the best way to depoliticise the role of the Speaker to ensure a smooth transition from the outgoing independent DUP Speaker to the current, effectively independent Sinn Féin Principal Deputy Speaker.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that his own roots in Donegal and the work that he did in Derry were very significant in the part that he played in producing a better Northern Ireland, because there is no doubt that, as the man who represented Londonderry in talks about parading in Derry, he had a very significant role. Indeed, not that long ago, someone said to me, "What North Belfast needs is a Willie Hay". Sadly, there is only one Willie Hay. He did his job in his city, and he did it to great effect. <BR /> <BR />Let us remember him and thank him, not just for what he did as Speaker here, but what he also did for the wider community in Northern Ireland; wish him a good recovery; and trust that, at some early stage, the voice of Derry and Londonderry will be heard in the House of Lords.”
“You mentioned the way in which he opened up this Building and ensured that it was seen as welcoming to many people, not just to the great and the good who normally come to events, but he opened it up as widely as he could to the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />He was always courteous in this Chamber, probably courteous to some who did not deserve it. He was always generous of his time, and he was always a man of integrity. Probably, once or twice, he got things wrong, but we knew that he was doing his best to ensure that this Chamber functioned and could be representative. Sadly, 107 of us probably need to learn lessons from him in the way that we conduct ourselves over the coming months.”
“<BR /> <BR />When people had meetings in his office, he was always keen to ensure that things ran smoothly and everybody was treated well. It is perhaps a measure of the success in the period since 2007 that I think that I was in the office less to see Mr Speaker Hay than to see his immediate predecessor during those difficult times of suspension, but it did not mean that there was any less courteous a reception or any less understanding for the points that I wished to raise. Whether it was, "A quick word with David", or a, "Can I have a chat, Minister?", he was always a model of courtesy and of complete propriety in the way that he conducted his office. <BR /> <BR />He was also an exceptionally good representative of this Chamber.”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I endorse the remarks made, including most particularly those remarks that you have made from the Chair, of good wishes and thanks to your predecessor in the sense of his once occupying that Chair. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that Willie Hay took on a very difficult task when he became the third Speaker of this Assembly. He was our first elected Speaker, but he proved that being elected to office did not stop him carrying out his duties impartially and fairly. He served this House well in the variety of roles that you have talked about. We all saw him in the Chamber as he sought to control us at times when we needed control. He did so generally with good humour and in a way that defused tension when, otherwise, it was quite possible that debates could have become very difficult.”
“Sorry, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I was so shocked that any member of Sinn Féin was actually giving way in this debate that I thought it was yet another rhetorical question. I am grateful to the Member for finally getting round to the point of accepting that there is an issue for debate. Of course, somebody who is a member of the National Crime Agency does not have identical accountability mechanisms to those which apply to members of the PSNI, but I have listed all the ways in which they are as close as they can be given that it is a UK-wide body. I listed the accountability mechanisms to the Policing Board, the ombudsman, CJINI, HMIC and everybody you could think of.”
“On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a Member to state what somebody else said inaccurately and then refuse to take a point of information?”
“<BR /> <BR />I also had concerns when I first heard of the Home Secretary's plans for the NCA. That is why I sought and achieved many changes in its operations, and significant discussion has been going on. However, we are now at the end of the road. It is time that Members accepted that we have a good deal. We should resolve these final issues that need to be tweaked; reject the amendment; and pass the motion and the LCM to ensure that we get the benefit of NCA to protect the people of Northern Ireland.”
“Paragraph 10 deals with covert operations and makes it clear that they would be only by agreement with the Chief Constable and subject to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) and the Police Act 2000. Mr Attwood also referred to paragraph 25. I believe that the Department of Justice is bound by annex E to the St Andrews Agreement, which clearly shows how that would be carried through. Indeed, the suggestion from the Home Secretary is that an issue of national intelligence would be carried through only for England and Wales. So there are very clear points there. However, I am grateful that Mr Attwood — unlike Sinn Féin Members — at least put forward some specific concerns and that there has been engagement with the SDLP. I trust that we will very shortly wrap up those final issues.”
“There would be, through the Police Ombudsman, accountability for all devolved, non-devolved and civil recovery issues. In addition, Criminal Justice Inspection would cover the NCA, as would Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC). So let us not pretend that there is insufficient accountability. I believe that the accountability certainly exceeds that in the rest of the UK and, arguably, in some areas, that of the PSNI. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood made three specific points relating to the paper that I circulated earlier. Let me just respond briefly. He referred to paragraph 13, where it is clear that the accountability of the NCA is to the Chief Constable and the board.”
“I think that the technical term is "quite horrific". <BR /> <BR />The amendment refers to accountability. Let us unpack this and look at what we have. We have the accountability of the NCA to the Policing Board. The director general is required to attend meetings of the Policing Board on request; to consult the board on, and seek its prior consent to, his plans; and to take account of the board's policing plan. The NCA could not exercise constabulary powers or covert investigation powers without the agreement of the Chief Constable. Let me repeat that: the NCA could not exercise those powers without the agreement of the Chief Constable, and the Chief Constable is accountable to the board. <BR /> <BR />Unlike SOCA, all the NCA's functions, as highlighted earlier, would be subject to investigation by the Police Ombudsman.”
“The law already has many different requirements for the NCA because it is a body in Westminster and accountable to the Home Secretary. I will take a quick intervention.”
“I trust that all Members will agree to the motion, and I will certainly oppose the amendment as it is currently formulated, because I believe that it is flawed.”
“I will come on to some of the comments that were made by Mr Attwood in particular in a moment, but there was a lot of naysaying from Sinn Féin with absolutely nothing specific. Indeed, Gerry Kelly, in saying nothing at all specific, showed such confidence in his argument that he did not accept a single intervention from any other Member during his 10 minutes. That is an indication of a man who has real confidence in the argument that he is putting forward — real confidence that he has got it right and can deal with interventions from anybody else. <BR /> <BR />If the situation is not resolved soon, we will have to make arrangements to fill the gaps, because we will have to accept failure. I do not believe that the Assembly should accept failure in this area.”
“In brief, the figures show that, last year, there was something like £19 million under investigation in Northern Ireland. This year, it is down to eight-point-something million pounds. I do not have the figures immediately in front of me, but those are roughly accurate. <BR /> <BR />The proposal that I put forward involved detailed work with the Home Office, the NCA, the Northern Ireland Office, the PSNI and others. In my view, it set out extensive accountability arrangements in line with local requirements and represents a sound and final proposal to enable progress. It represents a realistic, achievable framework. The question is what sort of society we want. Do we want to hamper law enforcement when there is a sensible package available for help? <BR /> <BR />We had a lot of naysaying in the debate.”
“Agreed entirely. I was trying to get on and not mention everything, but I am sure that, to the people we represent, the idea of criminals living with their assets secreted in Northern Ireland in lives of luxury, in the middle of what this society is going through, is utterly unacceptable. It is not just people living the life of luxury; it is luxury derived from the misery of other people. At the moment we are doing nothing to tackle it in this jurisdiction. Those are reasons why I believe that we must get the issue of the NCA resolved urgently.”
“There is a body that is capable of carrying out civil recovery: the NCA. It is operational in England, Wales and Scotland, and it needs to be operational here to tackle the organised criminals who seek to secrete assets in Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of course, one of the key issues is around civil recovery, on which there was a noticeable reluctance on Mr Kelly's part to take any intervention, because it is really the intervention to target the assets of local criminals. That has been lost since 7 October last year. It has not been hampered or reduced and nor does it require additional resources — it has been lost. Mr Kelly spoke about the idea of setting up a separate body for Northern Ireland. Gee, look at the successes we have had on legislation in this place around contentious issues. We have just introduced the Education Bill about three years later than it should have been introduced. If education is contentious, heaven spare us from what would happen if we were required to do separate legislation for our own bespoke body.”
“I mentioned it earlier, but let us repeat it: the NCA is the UK centre of expertise in many areas around cybercrime and, in particular, child exploitation online. Those areas cause huge concerns to the people of Northern Ireland. They are areas where the NCA can give arm's-length advice and assistance. The kind of line that was coming from the Sinn Féin Benches was that they can help and they can provide the information. Sure they can, but they cannot put operational officers on the ground — the people who have the direct experience — to go in and investigate what is happening. They have to pass the information on to the PSNI, and the PSNI then has the obligation to carry things through, whereas the expertise and the information reside with NCA.”
“We have already seen the issue of the PSNI losing officers to cover work that the NCA would do otherwise, but in terms of priorities and the difficult pressures that the PSNI is under, as the current budget changes come through, it becomes increasingly difficult for the PSNI to do what is its responsibility, without also carrying out the NCA's responsibility, and to provide the services that our people expect.”