David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“— lest I cause Mr Ramsey to laugh any more.”
“Nonetheless, on this particular point, as on others, we have reached a compromise, and I am not going to disturb the good nature of the House any more —”
“However, I do have to disrupt this notion that we are all in complete agreement by referring again to the late and, on my part, lamented clause 86 and remind Members that, in the debate on the Bill, we amended the Human Trafficking Act because there was a fundamental flaw in the definitions of charities as they related to work in protecting the child victims of human trafficking. Had the Bill not been available, we would have been using exactly the same provisions that exist in the Human Trafficking Act to make that necessary amendment to ensure that organisations like the NSPCC and Barnardo's could be recognised in Northern Ireland. There are reasons for that, and the fact that a lawyer arrived from London and told people that it was not a good idea does not necessarily counteract the reason why we did it.”
“He may be amused to know that, just today, I received a letter asking what could be done to ensure that prisoners and those who had recently been discharged from custody could assist in working on environmental schemes as part of community service. I am not sure whether or not that was inspired by a friend of the Committee Chair, but it was an example of where he has clearly hit a public mood. We will look to see how that can be carried through. <BR /> <BR />Overall, we have seen some very positive work and a Bill that has been much enhanced by a lot of efforts.”
“Online dispute resolution — sorry, I cannot read my own writing. The fact that a departmental official is working with Committee officers is a good example of that continuing in different ways. As has been highlighted from all parts of the Chamber, we have seen an example of the diligence and hard work of people, whether Committee members, Committee staff, my officials or those who made representations, to ensure that the Bill made progress and met the needs of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />I repeat the comments that I made at the beginning in thanking, in particular, Dolores Kelly and Paul Frew for the way in which they engaged on their proposed additions to the Bill. We were able get a good agreement on those because they came out early and we were able to negotiate and discuss them. Alastair Ross mentioned his amendment.”
“I start by thanking all those who contributed to the debate for the overwhelmingly positive tone in which comments have been passed, in particular the positive comments about my officials and even, at times, positive comments about me. That is an example of good work being done between the Committee and the Department, which is characteristic of the way that things have been for the last five years. The fact that the Chair was able to highlight the fact that, on his proposed visit to the Hague to look at the issue of mediation — was it mediation?”
“I am satisfied that its provisions, at introduction and as a result of subsequent amendments, will help to deliver a justice system that protects its citizens, treats victims with kindness and fairness, and makes the best use of scarce public resources. It is worth noting that 95% of the Bill's content as originally drafted has made it through, unmolested, to Final Stage. <BR /> <BR />I believe that the Bill is an important component in our ongoing programme of work to deliver a justice system that we can all be proud of. On that basis, I commend the Justice Bill to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />I regret that the media focus in the run-up to Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage was not on the substance of the sound policy content of the Bill but on issues relating to controversial measures being proposed for amendment by some Members. <BR /> <BR />The measures that I have highlighted give an outline of the Bill rather than a comprehensive breakdown. They give a sense of the many improvements to the justice system that I have introduced in the Bill and which the House has supported. <BR /> <BR />I said at Second Stage that I believed that the Bill was part of a blueprint for a better justice system for Northern Ireland.”
“The changes include making criminal record checks portable and allowing online updating, which has been long awaited by Access NI and its clients. There are additional protections relating to the information that can be disclosed and the ages of those subject to criminal record checks. An appeal mechanism has been created for the filtering scheme to allow old and minor convictions to be removed from some criminal records in certain circumstances. <BR /> <BR />Significant amongst the range of other reforms, the Bill places the best interest principle in the aims of the youth justice system.”
“<BR /> <BR />Changes are made to the existing offence of child grooming to reduce the threshold for the commission of an offence; a new offence of sexual communication with a child is created; and the offence of causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable adult is extended to include "suffering serious physical harm". <BR /> <BR />Other reforms in the Bill seek to improve the effectiveness and the efficiency of the justice system. A single territorial jurisdiction is created for Magistrates’ Courts and County Courts, and the opportunity for the use of live video links in courts is increased. Arrangements for the disclosure of criminal record checks are improved, making it more efficient and transparent.”
“Public protection and safeguarding arrangements are significantly improved by the Bill through the introduction of violent offences prevention orders or VOPOs. I must confess that the acronym does not appeal to those of us old enough to remember the Volkspolizei of the German Democratic Republic. <BR /> <BR />As a result of positive and proactive engagement with Dolores Kelly and her party colleagues, domestic violence prevention notices and orders are also created. Similarly, proactive engagement with Paul Frew and Lord Morrow results in child protection disclosures, allowing the consideration of disclosure of conviction information in relation to any offender who falls within our public protection arrangements.”
“There is a power to allow the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) to issue summonses without first having to obtain the signature of a lay magistrate and a new prosecutorial fine that will allow the PPS to offer penalties of up to £200, and compensation of up to £5,000 in the case of criminal damage, as an alternative to a case progressing to court.”
“I believe that we had an opportunity to go further to protect the interests of the most vulnerable victims and witnesses, but I am grateful to the House for approving my additional amendments at Further Consideration Stage that work within the will of the House while taking positive steps to ensure that the needs of witnesses will be taken into account in deciding if oral evidence is really necessary. <BR /> <BR />A frequent criticism of the justice system, particularly from victims, is that cases take too long. The Bill delivers a number of provisions that will speed up criminal case progression, including measures to encourage people who are guilty of a criminal offence to admit their guilt at an earlier stage and statutory case management arrangements to enhance court control over case progression.”
“<BR /> <BR />My determination is to place victims and vulnerable witnesses at the heart of the justice system, which is an aim that was, I understood, shared by the Committee for Justice. That is why I am a little disappointed that the Assembly stepped back from my original proposals to abolish preliminary investigations and the use of oral evidence at preliminary inquiries. Following speeches made by the two members of "Traditional Legal Voice" in the Assembly, the House voted at Consideration Stage to retain such hearings where, in the opinion of the court, they are required in the interests of justice.”
“It is no exaggeration to say that we are only at this stage as a direct result of its expertise and willingness to go the extra mile to assist me as sponsor and my officials. <BR /> <BR />The Bill, at Final Stage, is a strategic and highly significant piece of legislation. I do not intend to outline in detail all the Bill's content, but it is appropriate to remind the House of the main themes of reform that we have been addressing. At its heart, the Bill improves services and support for victims and witnesses, with a victims’ charter that will set out their entitlements and a witness charter that will set out the standards of service that witnesses can expect. We are introducing a legal entitlement to provide a victim statement to the court about the impact that a crime has had on a victim or their family.”
“I also want to thank the many officials in the DOJ, not many of whom have sat in the Box during the Bill's stages. They developed the content of the Bill from policy proposals into fully thought-out legislative provisions. I also thank those who have played an important part in ensuring that this significant piece of legislation progressed through the various stages of Assembly scrutiny, not all of whom annoyed me at different times. <BR /> <BR />I should also express particular thanks to the Office of Legislative Counsel for its exceptional work in crafting such a large and detailed piece of legislation at the outset and for its ongoing efforts in responding to a number of extremely challenging drafting demands in the approach to Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage.”
“It is a Bill that highlights the breadth and complexity of issues in the justice field that the Assembly now deals with as a matter of routine. <BR /> <BR />I should of course start by recording my thanks, as is traditionally the case. However, it is not just because it is tradition. I genuinely want to put on record my thanks to the Committee for Justice and, in particular, to the Chair, Alastair Ross, his predecessor, Paul Givan, and the Deputy Chair, Raymond McCartney, for their stewardship of the Committee's detailed scrutiny of the Bill and for its detailed and comprehensive report at the conclusion of Committee Stage. Of course, I thank the Committee's officials for the work that they do to keep matters running smoothly.”
“I have great pleasure, after some extremely long stages, in moving the Final Stage of the Bill, which has had a long journey from its original inception. Some of the policy content, for pressing reasons, was incorporated into the Legal Aid and Coroners' Courts Bill, which became an Act on 17 November 2014, and some has found its way into the Justice (No. 2) Bill, which I introduced earlier on. <BR /> <BR />For too long in this jurisdiction, justice legislation was criticised for adopting a piecemeal approach to the law. While there will always be a need to react to emerging trends and developments, since the devolution of justice I have made it my aim to approach much-needed legislative reform in a structured and focused manner. I hope that that is evidenced by the Bill that is before us now.”
“I beg to introduce the Justice (No. 2) Bill [NIA 57/11-16], which is a Bill to make provision about enforcement of the payment of fines and other penalties; to provide for the appointment and functions of a Prison Ombudsman for Northern Ireland; to amend the law relating to lay visitors for police stations, the possession of extreme pornographic images and the early removal from prison of prisoners liable to removal from the United Kingdom.”
“— in the general Executive commitment to draw down European funding as far as possible. <BR /> <BR />It looks as though you are not the only person who was cycling this morning, Sammy.”
“We have one significant advantage: if we cooperate with our colleagues 100 miles down the road, we get the benefits of cooperating with people from a different European state who speak our language, share a large part of our culture and understand our problems, as we then seek to build wider pan-European networks. There have been some very significant successes in that area, mostly led by the PSNI. Unfortunately, because of the tightening of funds, we have not been so successful over the past year or two, and we are hoping to ensure that the Department of Justice does its part —”
“I thank Mr Douglas for highlighting that point, because it will be a significant issue as funding becomes tighter. It was indeed mentioned, and we have asked for a specific report for the next meeting in the autumn. My official who looks after European matters was present to outline some of the work that is being done at this stage, largely under the Horizon 2020 programme, as part of which I had the opportunity to launch what was effectively an all-Ireland publicity day back in April in Belfast, looking with people from different parts of the justice system on both parts of the island at what opportunities there will be in the Horizon 2020 security strand to develop funding opportunities for us.”
“Mr Allister makes the entirely reasonable point that this is an issue of significant, ongoing public concern in both jurisdictions on the island, and we will need to ensure that we learn lessons from the work on reviewing what happened in Northern Ireland without wishing to create difficulties for the potential for prosecutions in further criminal cases, in whichever jurisdiction they might be.”
“In response to Mr Allister's point about the length of the mention, the simple reality is that, as I said to Mr Swann a few moments ago, inquiries are ongoing. Although the Keir Starmer report is now being considered by the PPS, work by the Police Ombudsman is ongoing. I hope that that work will be completed later this year. An Garda Síochána also has ongoing investigations. All of that means that there was very little that could be considered directly of relevance at this stage by the two Ministers. We therefore noted the ongoing work, but there was little that we could do in the way of decision-making.”
“Again, it is all part of learning lessons because, as far as I am concerned, I want to ensure that the justice system in Northern Ireland is responsive to trends wherever we can learn lessons. If positive work is being done in any part of the world that can affect our work, we should learn the lessons from it. However, we will learn most from our colleagues across the border and across the Irish Sea.”
“Mr Frew raises an interesting point, which is a euphemism for "I am not quite sure of the exact answer.". However, the merged public protection group will, in effect, be a North/South mirror on the way PPANI operates with the agencies that have been brought together in Northern Ireland. PPANI considers individual cases; the project advisory group (PAG) looks at the overall policy matters. It will undoubtedly help that there is a single PAG looking at the range of issues that will rate directly across to PPANI arrangements in the same way as we look at the development of a child protection disclosure scheme, in which the Member has a very legitimate interest. We will then have the opportunity to see how that ties in with similar work being done across the border.”
“<BR /> <BR />There will clearly be further pressure on forensic laboratories as they deal with these substances, but the fact that we are now working on a precautionary basis and not having to test each substance individually before it is banned will, I think, make life slightly easier for forensics. Ensuring that we get the best possible benefits of learning from the Irish experience will be an ongoing piece of work. I have no doubt that the fact that I was able to quote the Irish experience to the Home Office has helped to move matters on in the UK.”
“I thank my colleague for his endorsement of the work of the IGA, although, of course, it is less significant when it comes from a colleague than when it comes from somebody else. <BR /> <BR />New psychoactive substances (NPS) are a major issue, as has been correctly highlighted, in both jurisdictions and on a wider spread across Europe. As Members will know, the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 is a reserved matter, but I am pleased that the Home Office has responded to a certain amount of lobbying, including from the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland, to look at new legislation that has been introduced in the House of Lords, which builds on the Irish experience.”
“<BR /> <BR />To take his first point: the way in which we ensure that we look at how the victims of domestic and sexual violence are treated will be informed by the recent report to the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) by Sir Keir Starmer; by the ongoing work of the Police Ombudsman here into investigating how allegations made by Mairia Cahill and others were treated by the police and by the PPS; and by the fact that related inquiries are being conducted by the Garda Síochána. All of that means that we will look at a process as we consider the best way of responding, whether together, in parallel, or separately, to ongoing work in the two jurisdictions.”
“I congratulate Mr Swann on what is, I think, his first direct question on a justice issue. I am not sure whether that means that he will now be on the Committee, given the secret nomination process that has just taken place. I congratulate him on his creativity in seeking to get a matter that is led by DHSSPS in this jurisdiction into a statement dealing with justice cooperation across the two jurisdictions.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that there is good liaison, which is exemplified by the fact that the registered offenders and public protection groups have been amalgamated because of the crossover in their work. The fact that that work involves the two probation, police and prison services shows a very high level of cooperation. It also shows that, while sex offenders are relatively free to move across the island, they are subject to the same notification and supervision arrangements of whichever jurisdiction they are in. That is an extremely good example of a number of agencies on both sides of the border working closely together.”
“I thank Mr Maginness for his endorsement of the work of the IGA. It is good to know that some Members sometimes appreciate things being done by Ministers. I know that that was a genuine comment on the nature of the good work being done on a cross-border basis. <BR /> <BR />Members will recall that, whilst there are specific issues with sex offenders being required to notify travel outside the UK, for obvious reasons, it is slightly different in this jurisdiction, where it involves cross-border travel. Nonetheless, there is a requirement that people register if they are travelling for more than, I think, three days. There is an allowance that some people travel daily for work, but things are different there.”
“It shows that these are not always high-level discussions. These can affect day-to-day policing, and the PSNI dealt very well with a potentially difficult situation in the Newtownbutler incident, because of assistance from the gardaí.”
“Mr Lynch highlights hate crime. I have one slight caveat: we know that the reporting of hate crime is on the rise, but we are not sure whether that is crime on the rise or the result of increased encouragement to ensure that people are more aware of it and report it. However, the issue needs attention from the PSNI as well as an Garda Síochána. <BR /> <BR />With regard to working with minority communities, Mr Lynch in particular will remember a recent murder in Newtownbutler in his constituency relating to a wedding in the Traveller community. There is no doubt that, in the response that the PSNI was required to make, it benefited significantly from work done in engagement with the Traveller community by an Garda Síochána. The cross-border sharing of information was of direct practical value in that operation.”
“Youth diversion is an issue not just for the police but for the two youth justice agencies. The respective youth justice agencies lead on that project advisory group (PAG). Again, it is a matter of sharing experience from the two sides of the border and learning lessons from each other. We have a lot to show from the work that we have done on youth engagement and recent initiatives across the justice system here, which will show benefits across the board.”
“That builds on the work that has been done to see cross-border cooperation since the majority, but by no means all, of the fuel laundering plants have been discovered in border areas, and has been part of ongoing cooperation between the PSNI and an Garda Síochána as they deal with their normal cross-border policing issues. I believe that the introduction of the new marker is showing some benefits. Members will also be aware that this issue was actually discussed at the NSMC as well as at the IGA.”
“I thank the Chair for his questions. I will turn first to fuel fraud. As Members may have seen, yesterday I opened a pan-European conference on fuel fraud in the Hilton Hotel. It built very much on the work that has been done over the three years since the last conference, which was also held in Belfast, and led by HMRC and the Irish Office of the Revenue Commissioners with regard to, for example, developing a marker and dealing with the issue of proper management of registered dealers in controlled oils and the equivalent scheme in the Republic. Of course, we have also seen that we now have the potential for referral of unduly lenient sentences to the Court of Appeal.”
“<BR /> <BR />Following on from previous meetings, the Irish Justice Minister and I discussed ongoing investigations into sexual abuse carried out by paramilitaries and recent reports on how those were dealt with by the justice system in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The intergovernmental agreement provides an extremely helpful framework for supporting North/South cooperation on criminal justice matters. We are tangibly experiencing the true benefits of cooperation as individuals within the criminal justice agencies have developed positive and mature working relationships with their respective counterparts. It is that genuine and sincere type of practical cooperation that Frances Fitzgerald and I are both determined to further develop and encourage in striving to keep all the people of this island safe and secure.”
“<BR /> <BR />In relation to the management of sex offenders, there continues to be excellent cooperation between the police services at an operational level. This work area has become embedded into normal policing business. <BR /> <BR />As the Assembly will know, it is not the purpose of the IGA to provide for discussion of cross-border security issues. However, I used the opportunity on 19 June to briefly discuss with Frances Fitzgerald some cross-border security-related issues. These included the work being done in the areas of tackling fuel fraud and human trafficking. I also relayed my appreciation to AGS in supporting the work to tackle ongoing security challenges, particularly the despicable attempted bomb attack on a PSNI officer in Eglinton the day before our meeting.”
“<BR /> <BR />Each of the project advisory groups has continued to promote and support cooperation across the broad spectrum of criminal justice agencies on both sides of the border. Examples include: work to develop proposals to improve cross-border information-sharing on persons unlawfully at large from custody; the exploration of opportunities for sharing knowledge and good practice in the area of diversity, specifically hate crime; consideration of relevant developments pertaining to the treatment of victims of domestic and sexual abuse and violence, including the outcomes from the Keir Starmer inquiry; examination of the potential for further PSNI/AGS cooperation on diversion in relation to young offenders; and increasing opportunities for enhanced cross-border awareness relating to policing minority communities.”
“Following recent discussions emanating originally from the public protection and registered offenders project advisory groups, a proposal to merge those two groups was submitted to Frances Fitzgerald and me to consider and approve at our meeting. Our endorsement to the merger was given, and the 2015-16 work programme will be taken forward by five project advisory groups. This sensible merger creates an enhanced public protection group, optimising the use of resources due to the considerable overlap of operational and policy work areas. The public protection group will continue to be co-chaired by the heads of the two probation services, as well as having members drawn from the respective police and prison services.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the years following devolution of justice, six project advisory groups have provided the mechanism by which work is taken forward. They have focused on the areas of public protection, registered offenders, youth justice, forensic science, support for victims of crime, and social diversity.”
“Through the work of the youth justice group, staff exchanges and information sharing between the juvenile detention facilities in the two jurisdictions continue. Those are just some of the examples that demonstrate the excellent ongoing cooperation between criminal justice agencies across the island. <BR /> <BR />I have attached to the printed version of this statement a copy of the joint work programme for 2015-16. That programme seeks to build on the 2014-15 programme and the progress made last year, but Frances Fitzgerald and I have also sought to sharpen the focus for the project advisory groups by assigning to each of them specific activities with anticipated outcomes. I intend to give a brief progress report in December following our next IGA. In the interim, progress will be monitored by the working group of officials.”
“Recent negotiations between forensic science services have resulted in agreement in relation to the sharing of DNA profiles, and appropriate protocols are under development. The value of the relationships established between the police services within the criminal justice and social diversity project advisory group was evidenced when an Garda Síochána (AGS) and the PSNI shared extremely helpful insights into best-practice approaches to policing in minority communities. <BR /> <BR />The annual public protection seminar was successfully held for the fifth time, on 21 November in Dublin. The event also saw the launch of the eleventh edition of the 'Irish Probation Journal'. Plans are advanced for the sixth annual seminar later this year in Belfast.”
“<BR /> <BR />The meeting on 19 June provided us both with an opportunity to review final progress against the 2014-15 joint work programme, as well as to formally agree a joint work programme for 2015-16, which will run through to next summer. Discussions also took place about maximising opportunities to access European funding for justice-related initiatives, and it is hoped to revisit that area when we meet again later in the year. In the interim, officials have been tasked with undertaking further exploratory research into appropriate potential European funding streams. <BR /> <BR />It was pleasing to note the positive progress that has been made across the 2014-15 work programme.”
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement regarding a meeting under the auspices of the intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on cooperation on criminal justice matters held in Armagh on Friday 19 June. I represented the Executive at the meeting with Frances Fitzgerald TD, the Minister for Justice and Equality, who was attending her third meeting under the auspices of the IGA. It was the tenth formal ministerial meeting under the IGA since the devolution of justice in April 2010. As I have previously said in statements to the House, I am committed to keeping the Assembly informed of meetings held under the auspices of the agreement on the same basis as North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meetings.”
“This may be a slightly novel constitutional concept, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I appreciate the Member giving way after inviting me to speak. The point just made by Mr McGlone and made on behalf of the police by Chief Superintendent Cargin is my understanding of the position at this stage.”
“I will repeat the undertaking that I made in the first part of my contribution. I believe that we are close, particularly on fees and bands. I repeat my willingness to continue the constructive engagement between the Committee, the shooting organisations — all of them — and my Department with a view to ensuring that we get comprehensive firearms legislation in place as soon as possible. I give my commitment that, if possible, that will be done in the Justice (No. 2) Bill, which I intend, with the Speaker's permission, to introduce to the House next week.”
“Let us please not get into that problem today. Let us accept that the worthwhile and useful discussion that has happened over recent weeks will continue.”
“<BR /> <BR />Obviously, I also oppose the commencement clauses, because I am not happy with the detail, but let me summarise that I believe there has been a lot of positive engagement over the last few weeks. Members may disagree on the exact circumstances in which that has come about, but I believe that we have moved forward significantly. <BR /> <BR />Before us today are a number of amendments that would not work. I remind Members, particularly those who were not here in early 2011, that references have been made to the mood of the House in 2011. However, that produced amendments at Further Consideration Stage that had the effect of rendering the entire Justice Bill incompetent. The House, for the first and, so far, only time, had to introduce an Exceptional Further Consideration Stage to tidy up that problem.”