David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“<BR /> <BR />One of the other key issues is the assets recovery community scheme, which has contributed to some of those projects. For example, it has provided equipment for the volunteers to identify themselves and implemented a variety of small measures that has meant that assets that have been recovered have been put to good use in helping to fight that kind of crime and antisocial behaviour.”
“I endorse Mr McElduff's praise for the volunteers who carry out such work. He, as an MLA for West Tyrone, will praise the volunteers in Omagh, and I will praise all the volunteers in similar schemes in every part of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />He spoke specifically about the issue of funding, and Members will be well aware of the difficult funding situation that we are in. Nonetheless, I am happy to say that we were able to ensure that, for the remainder of this financial year, the relevant PCSP budgets have been restored and that we are doing our best to ensure that the front-line work of PCSPs is protected to a degree next year, and will receive less of a reduction than expenditure within the core Department.”
“It is clear that interventions facilitated by the Omagh Street Safe volunteers, such as the offering of advice, support and a place of safety for the most vulnerable, play an important role in diffusing potentially dangerous and serious situations. <BR /> <BR />The Omagh Street Safe project and similar schemes, such as those run by Street Pastors, are excellent examples of local people identifying a local problem, devising a solution that is valued by its beneficiaries and actively participating in its implementation and delivery.”
“The Omagh Street Safe project is one of a number of initiatives delivered by Fermanagh and Omagh Policing and Community Safety Partnership that contributes to improving community safety in the night-time economy in Omagh town centre. <BR /> <BR />Violent behaviour in and around pubs and clubs on weekend nights presents a significant problem for public health, criminal justice and town centre management. There are many factors that influence offending in the night-time economy, such as substance misuse, overcrowding, permissive social environments and competition for limited fast food and transport facilities. That leads to difficulties in isolating any one factor that impacts on improving community safety.”
“Yes, I can certainly give that assurance to the House, not just to Mr Kennedy. I should have dealt with that point when Mr Campbell asked his question. The television coverage did not make any difference to the unfortunate nature of the incident. It merely made it more public. The lessons are being learned and would be learned whether or not we had the benefit of a UTV camera in Bishop Street that day.”
“Mr McCartney makes a valid point. One of the key issues with justice is that it must be seen to be done. One of the advantages of some of our more modern courthouses is that, because they have been constructed in more recent times, it is easier to manage the security of prisoners arriving through somewhere different from a yard that is effectively all but open to public view, as is the case with Londonderry courthouse on Bishop Street. Clearly, that issue does not arise in some of our more modern facilities, such as Laganside or some of the smaller courthouses.”
“I repeat to Mr Campbell that lessons will be learned from the issue. He referred to the Prison Service. There was no direct Prison Service involvement in that particular instance.”
“Mr Diver is certainly correct: there are always lessons to be learned from an incident such as that. They may relate to the physical fabric of courthouses and other places of concern, or there may be issues with the management of individuals coming into those places. In that case, the issue would seem to be slightly more to do with the second point than the first.”
“As a result of the incident at Londonderry courthouse on 23 December, an independent review of security was commissioned by the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service. The review was carried out in consultation with the police and the Prison Service. Members will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to discuss the outcome of the review, but I can reassure the House that the security arrangements in place at courthouses are kept under review and subject to regular inspection.”
“I am beginning to think that I should perhaps tell Lord Morrow that it is possible for a honeymoon to last longer than the first half hour. As usual, when we deal with these technical matters, I thank the Chair for his input. In particular, the Committee gives detailed consideration to some of those quite arcane and technical points at times. In thanking the Committee and the Chair for their input, I again state that I am complying with the requirements of DFP to ensure that we have the appropriate arrangements to deal with the new Public Service Pensions Act. On that basis, I again commend the regulations to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />On 3 December last year, the Justice Committee agreed that it was content with the draft regulations, and it is with its support that I bring the draft regulations before the House today. I commend the draft regulations to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 modifies the definition of "cessation date" and specifically introduces a date of 6 April 2016 for the abolition of contracting out for salary-related schemes. The changes are technical in nature to ensure the protection of guaranteed minimum pension benefits for members who have transferred from the 1988 or 2006 police pension scheme into the 2015 police pension scheme. The draft consequential provisions regulations before the House today have been the subject of a targeted consultation. The consultation ran from 2 October to 6 November and no specific comments were received. The regulations have been subject to an equality screening exercise and no equality issues were identified.”
“I introduced the Police Pensions (Consequential Provisions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2015 in February, following a request by the Department of Finance and Personnel, further to that by HM Treasury, to amend the Public Service Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2014. However, during the drafting of that legislation, the Department of Finance and Personnel asked for the removal of a clause relating to the protection of increases in guaranteed minimum pensions after the abolition of contracting out, as the abolition of contracting out had yet to be provided for in the Northern Ireland legislation. Schedule 13 to the Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, introduced in June 2015, now makes provision for the abolition of contracting out by way of amendment to the Pension Schemes (Northern Ireland) Act 1993.”
“Whatever view Mr Allister may have about the bona fides of some of those who set up the process, there can be no doubting the bona fides of the panel or the task force.”
“The three-person panel has been set up with a clear remit to produce proposals for the fight against paramilitarism. There are clear lines there, and I do not think that there is any suggestion that any of the three members is in any way associated with paramilitary organisations. The task force is led by the Police Service of Northern Ireland and an Garda Síochána, and it will also include bodies such as Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the National Crime Agency, the Revenue Commissioners and, potentially, the environment agencies and social security agencies on either side of the border. The task force has to work out its final membership, but there is no suggestion that any of those bodies is doing anything other than enforcing the law and ensuring that the law is upheld on either side of the border.”
“I am not quite sure how far I go down the road of Mr Allister's references to support partners and so on, but the reality is that he highlighted the two areas where work is being done, one being the task force and the other the three-person panel.”
“We certainly seek to get arrests, and HMRC has been successful in some areas but the key issue is to stop laundering happening in the first place. That is why the introduction of the new fuel marker, with its apparent successes, is extremely useful in the fight against those who seek to launder and in ensuring that we can deal with that problem and not have the continuing issues of criminality, pollution and threat to private business.”
“If a fuel laundering plant is operating on the basis that a lorry is driven in, a pipe is connected, the guy walks away, 24 hours later somebody goes back, disconnects the pipe and drives another lorry away, we can understand why it is not always easy to arrest people and why, frequently, those who might be arrested are simply the individuals being paid a small sum to drive the lorries. <BR /> <BR />The assumption that seems to be in some quarters — I am not suggesting that Mr Frew is making it — is that Mr Big is sitting presiding over a factory, looking down at a massive workforce on a factory floor, and is available to be arrested any time people turn up. That is the challenge and why seizures are important.”
“I thank Mr Frew for his question. It is always nice when somebody quotes back a statement and agrees with its contents. When we look at fuel laundering, we need to be careful that we do not assume that we can do more than is likely to be easily the case. In many cases, fuel laundering plants are operating more or less automatically in areas that are not always the easiest for unarmed HMRC or Revenue Commissioners officers to go into without a significant escort.”
“When we had the Horizon 2020 secure societies information day last spring, we looked at the cross-border options. Those continue to be explored with the Northern Ireland contact point working with the Irish national contact point. However, there are difficulties if we cannot access the full range of European funding, and the people who are suffering are our citizens.”
“Nonetheless, there have been difficulties in accessing funding more recently, specifically because the justice and internal security programmes are not available.”
“I thank Mr Douglas for that question, which, to some extent, builds on Mr Dickson's question. There are already problems because the UK Government have not opted into the justice programme and the internal security programme, and, therefore, authorities in Northern Ireland cannot access that kind of funding. During the previous Programme for Government (PFG) period — I suppose that we are still technically in the extension of it — the Department of Justice did well in accessing European funding. The PSNI was particularly assiduous in seeking opportunities and building partnerships. Of course, it had the advantage that the first leg of the partnership could be just down the road, speaking the same language and understanding the same culture. That was a significant benefit for us.”
“I thank Mr Dickson for his question. There is no doubt that the great bulk of the cooperation on justice matters in recent years has been on the basis of the UK and the Republic of Ireland's joint membership of the European Union. That has meant, for example, that Irish authorities have used the European extradition warrant to return offenders to Northern Ireland in a way that previously caused considerable difficulties, as those of us old enough to remember those days in the 60s and 70s will recall. I have significant concerns that the level of cooperation that we are seeing today could not continue if the UK were to leave the EU. There is no doubt that it would affect extradition and a number of other issues and would make cross-border cooperation significantly more difficult than it is currently.”
“<BR /> <BR />As far as the three-person panel making recommendations on fighting paramilitarism is concerned, the specific arrangements for admin are that full support is being supplied by staff from the Department of Justice, who were introduced to the panel at the meeting on 23 December, have already engaged and are setting up arrangements for email systems and so on. That is already under way. The budget is the amount agreed by the Executive that would be paid to the individuals for their work for that period. Other costs are being borne by the DOJ. I believe that what we saw at that meeting was the three members getting down to identifying how the work would be done, and I think they are satisfied with the support that is currently being provided by some of my officials to them.”
“There is some evidence — it is at a relatively early stage — to suggest that fuel laundering is happening less frequently than previously, although it is inevitable that criminals will turn to other activity given the opportunity. <BR /> <BR />Mr Kennedy asked about the level at which the cross-border task force will be chaired. The strategic group will be chaired by an assistant chief constable, and the operational group will be chaired by either a PSNI superintendent or chief superintendent. I do not think that that post is quite resolved yet.”
“I congratulate Mr Kennedy on managing to get in more questions than anybody else so far. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs leads on specific issues to deal with fuel fraud. It is not possible, therefore, for me to say anything in particular about that, other than the fact that the police will continue to provide the support that HMRC requires. We have, however, seen good results from the fuel marker that was introduced in the spring of last year. Mr Kennedy will probably be aware — others may not be — that, as a result of a recent fire in his constituency, when the Fire and Rescue Service discovered a fuel-laundering plant, it was clear that the old marker had been successfully laundered out of that fuel but the new marker had not, which is very encouraging.”
“I cannot speak for anything other than the devolved agencies, but the fact that we have protection in the current Budget for policing activities but not for other aspects of the justice system is an indication that the task force will have teeth and that good work will be done at ACC level about ensuring that resources go to operational activities. However, that is where we get into operational details, so the Minister should perhaps steer slightly clear of that.”
“I thank Mr Maginness for the question. At this stage, no specific arrangement is in place for the trilateral meeting to be repeated. The expectation is that the co-chairs of the task force — a Garda assistant commissioner and a PSNI assistant chief constable (ACC) — will make their reports, which will go to future IGA meetings to the two Ministers. In a sense, therefore, the Secretary of State will not be part of that. The expectation is that that will be the reporting mechanism. If the Justice Ministers wish to report on issues, the opportunities will then be there for information to be passed to an NSMC meeting in plenary session. The key issue is to ensure that resources are applied as best required.”
“The specific issue of funding that will be provided to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and the Revenue Commissioners in the Republic is a little unclear at this stage, but they will clearly have a major role to play in fighting smuggling alongside the two police services.”
“I appreciate the Deputy Chair's question. The funding has not been specifically provided to the task force, but funds are available to be bid for by organisations that are involved in the task force through their individual work. A business case was put together in the Department, and that is the basis on which the £25 million of Treasury funding and £25 million of DFP funding has been allocated. The specific decisions will, to some extent, depend on the outcome of the three-person panel's recommendations and getting full Executive or DFP approval for how individual items are spent.”
“<BR /> <BR />As to when we will see results from the task force, I am not sure that it is possible to say that we will see results in quite such a clear-cut way as the question perhaps implied. The reality is that we have seen some extremely good work done. Members will be aware of the press conference staged by an Assistant Commissioner of an Garda Síochána last week in which he highlighted some of the weapons and explosives that had been seized, particularly in border areas, over the last year or so. It is clear that very good work is already under way. The important issue will be to see the task force bringing together a variety of organisations on both sides of the border, not merely the two police services, to enhance the cooperation across all aspects of justice enforcement.”
“I thank the Chair for his questions. On the issue of EU funding, work has been ongoing; indeed, I launched a seminar a few months ago looking at the opportunities under the Horizon 2020 European scheme. There are particular difficulties for us in Northern Ireland, as our colleagues across the border are able to access some funding that is not accessible to us because of the UK's withdrawal from certain justice and home affairs measures. That is a difficulty that impacts on an Executive target. However, work is ongoing, and I trust that we will see specific information coming back in the next few months that will show where there are further opportunities.”
“<BR /> <BR />In concluding, it is worth noting that North/South cooperation on criminal justice matters has been both increased and intensified since devolution. The local accountability under devolution has provided the environment to further improve cooperation and working relationships between criminal justice agencies in the two jurisdictions. The cooperation that we have now has never been better, and I am proud of the work that has been undertaken at ministerial and official level under the auspices of the IGA. Consequently, solid foundations already exist that can be built on in order to meet the tasks and challenges ahead.”
“<BR /> <BR />The agreement, of course, builds on the existing excellent working relationship between the Police Service of Northern Ireland and an Garda Síochána, which provides a firm basis for practical and strategic cooperation between the two services. The 'Cross Border Policing Strategy', published in December 2010, highlights the breadth of cooperation that exists and the determination of both services to use all the tools available to them to ensure that those who would seek to exploit the border for criminal ends will not succeed. The strategy has been reviewed by both police services, and it is anticipated that the revised strategy will be launched in the very near future. The document is particularly relevant at this moment, with a focus on the island on paramilitaries and organised crime.”
“The £25 million that Westminster has committed over the next five years, along with the additional £25 million provided by the Executive, will allow increased investigative and specialist capacity in addition to scope for research and awareness raising. That major programme of work will be based on the work of the new three-person panel, which will make recommendations to the Executive on a strategy for disbanding paramilitary groups. The members of the panel — Professor Monica McWilliams, Lord Alderdice and Mr John McBurney — met for the first time on 23 December, and their independent report is due to be presented by the end of May.”
“The resulting criminal activity affects everyone in society, but the impact falls particularly heavily on those living in border areas, who have the same right as all of us to live free from the fear of criminal activity. The new task force brings together a range of law enforcement agencies from both jurisdictions to work jointly and equally to tackle this crime and make it clear that it is totally unacceptable and will not be tolerated. <BR /> <BR />In addition to the task force, the funding provided under the agreement will allow my Department, together with law enforcement bodies, to take forward a comprehensive range of actions designed to tackle criminal activity.”
“<BR /> <BR />Following detailed work by officials in both jurisdictions, I am pleased to say that those present were able to agree the working arrangements of the new cross-jurisdictional joint agency task force, which will be chaired by the two police services. Organised crime is a scourge on civilised society across the island of Ireland and is a source of funding for further criminality and paramilitarism. Many organised crime groups on this island take advantage of the existence of a land border and commit the classic cross-border crimes of smuggling and excise evasion. They also use the ability to move easily between jurisdictions to cover their activities and to evade the authorities.”
“The Fresh Start Agreement stated that a trilateral cross-border ministerial meeting would take place in December 2015, involving the United Kingdom Government, the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive and would agree new measures to enhance law enforcement cooperation aimed at tackling organised crime and criminality, including that linked to paramilitarism. The Irish Government were represented by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Justice, the UK Government by the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Executive by the then First Minister, the deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice.”
“<BR /> <BR />The intergovernmental agreement provides an extremely helpful framework for supporting North/South cooperation on criminal justice matters. It is that level of mature cooperation that, along with the current Irish Justice Minister and her two predecessors, I have worked at over the past six years, being committed to striving to keep all the people of this island safe and secure. I am grateful for the support of so many individuals in all the relevant agencies. <BR /> <BR />I also want to take the opportunity to update Members on the ministerial trilateral that followed the IGA on 21 December.”
“Through the youth justice PAG, staff exchanges and information sharing between the juvenile detention facilities in the two jurisdictions has proved extremely beneficial, particularly in the development of the Oberstown facility in County Dublin. Those are just a few examples to demonstrate the ongoing cooperation between criminal justice agencies across the island. <BR /> <BR />As the Assembly is aware, it is not primarily the intention of the IGA to provide for discussion on the full range of cross-border security issues. However, I used the recent opportunity to briefly discuss with Frances Fitzgerald some cross-border security-related issues as well as the work being undertaken to tackle fuel laundering.”
“The IGA had a presentation on the mutually beneficial cooperative support that exists from the co-chairs of the support for victims PAG. The co-chairs gave a joint presentation that covered the transposition of the EU victims’ directive, which was effective from November, and developments in victim services in our respective jurisdictions. Good working relations and the sharing of best practice and expertise between the forensic science services continue. That has resulted, for example, in instances of informal and practical assistance between the laboratories on DNA profiles, an important area in criminal investigations.”
“It is anticipated that the final paper will be published by the summer. The seminar also saw the launch of volume 12 of the highly professional joint Irish Probation Journal. Having addressed the five previous annual seminars, which were introduced following the devolution of justice powers in 2010, I was very pleased to open the sixth annual seminar.”
“It provided a forum for professionals from various justice agencies, North and South, to discuss a number of key topics, including a most relevant session on tackling hate crime. Indeed, through the public protection PAG, the probation services have been cooperating to prepare a research paper relating to 'Working with hate crime offenders: Perspectives from the Probation Service' for the law faculty at the University of Limerick.”
“Examples include further work to develop proposals to improve cross-border information-sharing on persons unlawfully at large from custody; the exploration of opportunities for sharing knowledge in the area of diversity; and exploiting increased opportunities for enhanced cross-border awareness relating to policing minority communities. <BR /> <BR />It was encouraging to note the progress that has been made against the current work programme, which this year contains an enhanced focus for the project advisory groups by assigning to each of them specific activities with anticipated outcomes. An excellent example arising out of the work programme was the successful staging of the sixth annual joint public protection seminar, held in Belfast City Hall on 20 November. The theme of the seminar was innovation for safer communities.”
“<BR /> <BR />Further discussions took place about maximizing opportunities to access European funding for justice-related initiatives, and it is hoped to revisit progress in that area by the early summer. In the interim, officials have been tasked with undertaking further exploratory research into appropriate potential European funding streams arising from Horizon 2020. <BR /> <BR />Five project advisory groups (PAGs) currently provide the mechanism by which work is taken forward. They are focused on the areas of public protection; youth justice; forensic science; support for victims of crime; and social diversity. The PAGs continue to promote and support cooperation across the broad spectrum of criminal justice agencies on both sides of the border.”
“It was the eleventh formal ministerial meeting that I have attended under the IGA since the devolution of justice in April 2010. As I have previously said, I am committed to keeping the Assembly informed of meetings held under the auspices of the agreement on the same basis as North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meetings. <BR /> <BR />The bilateral meeting on 21 December provided Frances Fitzgerald and me with an opportunity to review early progress against the 2015-16 joint work programme, which runs through to summer 2016. Members will recall that I previously shared the work programme with the House following agreement of the programme in June.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. With your permission, I will make a statement regarding a bilateral meeting under the auspices of the intergovernmental agreement (IGA) on cooperation on criminal justice matters, which was held in Farmleigh in Dublin on Monday 21 December, and the ministerial trilateral meeting that followed, focusing on the elements of the Fresh Start Agreement dealing with cross-border organised crime, including the establishment of a joint agency task force. I intend first to cover the IGA meeting, before turning to the trilateral meeting. <BR /> <BR />I represented the Executive at the bilateral meeting with Frances Fitzgerald TD, the Minister for Justice and Equality, who was attending her fourth meeting under the auspices of the IGA.”
“Presumably, he will regard the Fresh Start announcement before Christmas as being the summit of his work. It will, of course, now be for others to deliver on that so-called fresh start to ensure that we fully embed the principles of moving forward. He talked about the pace of change. In this corner of the House, we were probably seeking a faster pace of change than was possible elsewhere. Even saying that, I acknowledge that, without his work, we would not have had the solid embedding, the strength of the institutions or the strength of the political process against those who would seek to disrupt and disturb it. He has played a very significant part in ensuring a better future for all of us.”
“There is no doubt that his efforts, alongside those of the deputy First Minister, kept these institutions going through some very difficult times, particularly over the last couple of years. He referred to trials and ordeals. There is no doubt that the Assembly has survived very significant trials and ordeals, and he played a large part in ensuring that that happened.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that he has played an extremely key role in this institution and the life of Northern Ireland for many years but most particularly since the restoration of devolution. He mentioned the devolution of Justice. I do not believe that that would have happened without the commitment that he made to ensuring that devolution was fully embedded and capable of taking on the difficult task of Justice, particularly in the light of the tragedies that he has highlighted that we have suffered in recent years. <BR /> <BR />Leaving aside a brief spell in Regional Development in the first Assembly, he had a major role as Minister of Finance in seeing how matters were put into order for devolution on restoration in 2007. He has then had a very significant career as First Minister.”