David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
The complete record
Every one of 2,469 lines we hold for David Ford, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 7 of 50.
“<BR /> <BR />We also need to look at the approach taken with older children, which is why another of the proposals is to place the youth justice system in a welfare and social services model rather than a criminal justice one. That means ensuring that, wherever possible, actions in childhood do not have a lasting negative effect on the child's life through a criminal record. It means considering again whether the only custodial institution that we have for children should sit in the criminal justice system, given the overwhelming mental health and addictions issues prevalent amongst the children detained there. <BR /> <BR />The second theme emerging from the scoping study is the need to maximise community involvement and increase exit points from the justice system.”
“<BR /> <BR />The primary proposal put forward by the steering group under the theme of welfare echoes the calls from the Committee on the Rights of the Child and the youth justice review, and it is to raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility. I am fully aware that not all parties yet agree with the need to do that, but we should not ignore the fact that the change is strongly advocated and supported by experts in youth justice in Northern Ireland, across these islands and internationally. Raising the age would take vulnerable young children entirely out of the remit of criminal justice. Offending behaviour by young children would then be addressed in a different way, as in most other countries in Europe. Young children would still be held to account for their actions but would be supported to change rather than criminalised.”
“In the first theme of welfare, the scoping study emphasised that the needs of the child should form the basis of all interactions with the child. Our system of government segregates those needs into departmental responsibilities, addressing each independently. That segregation pervades the whole system and contributes to many of the issues that manifest as criminal justice problems. That is why I believe that one of the key measures in the next Programme for Government should focus on improving the life outcomes of our children. Implementing the proposals arising out of the scoping study would move us significantly towards achieving such an outcome and should be a priority area across the new Executive.”
“I place on record my thanks to all those involved in the process for giving their time, experiences and expertise. <BR /> <BR />The steering group has now reported back with a range of innovative proposals for change that will require a fundamental shift in how the system views and responds to children who offend. The proposals put forward by the steering group can be grouped broadly under three themes. The first is putting welfare at the heart of the system; the second is maximising community involvement and increasing exit points from the justice system; and the third is developing the disposals available to the judiciary and reducing the use of custody to make it truly a measure of last resort. <BR /> <BR />I will address each of those themes in turn and outline at a high level the sort of changes that the steering group proposed.”
“This group, chaired by the chief executive of the Youth Justice Agency, and the subgroups commissioned by it consisted of senior representatives from each of the criminal justice organisations and those Departments and agencies that play a major role in children’s lives. <BR /> <BR />Two ideas exchange workshops with the community and voluntary sector and two workshops with the parents of children involved in youth justice and with children at Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre were also held.”
“In May last year, I announced the launch of a scoping study on children in the justice system. In a statement to the Assembly, I outlined the reasons why such a study was needed and what I hoped it would achieve. I described the need to build on the work begun in the youth justice review to consider whether the legislative, strategic and structural architecture surrounding the youth justice system was adequate to address the many and complex needs of the children who come into contact with it. <BR /> <BR />The scoping study began in earnest in June with the first meeting of the steering group.”
“I trust that that advice and assistance will be accepted by the new Minister and new Executive and that the contents of this report will be very seriously considered after the May elections.”
“I thank them for the cooperative way in which they have ensured that work has been done between the Department and the Committee with my staff. <BR /> <BR />There was the potential in 2010 for justice to be regarded as a toxic issue. There is no doubt that we have dealt with some very difficult issues. At times, it has not been easy. However, to go back to the remarks of the president of the Supreme Court, Lord Neuberger, the Committee and Department have worked well together. The Committee has carried out its role not just by being belligerent and argumentative, which it might be tempted to be at times. In the words of the 1998 Act, it has certainly advised and assisted the Minister and the Department.”
“I trust that this will not appear in an East Antrim election leaflet, but I publicly thank him for the constructive and cooperative way in which he has operated. Raymond McCartney, of course, has suffered even longer: he has been Deputy Chair of the Committee since 2010 and has also played a part in that. I will mention just one other name: we have benefited from Alban Maginness's professional background as a barrister. That sometimes means that he has been completely difficult to deal with, but a lot of the time he has brought some specialist and beneficial knowledge, which has been good for the Committee and for the Department. I thank him for his role, since he is even more certainly leaving the process than I am. When praising Committee members, it would be remiss of me to not also praise the Committee staff.”
“Maybe it is easier for me to agree it on the basis that I will not be; I can therefore go along with colleagues on the Committee. I cannot commit a future Justice Minister, even if it were one of my party colleagues, on what the Executive as a whole will decide, but it is absolutely safe to say that I recognise the good ideas in the report, and I thank the Committee for doing it. <BR /> <BR />In that context, it is appropriate, with your discretion, Principal Deputy Speaker, for a minute or two, to thank the Committee in general not just for this but for the amount of work that has been done over the mandate. Alastair Ross has certainly been a very effective leader. Much of what is in the report and in the series of seminars is due to his work.”
“It is an excellent, in effect, end-of-term report from the Committee that brings together a number of threads that have been with us for some time. I certainly understand the Committee's wish to see the proposals that it is putting forward, particularly around problem-solving and online dispute resolution, going into the next Programme for Government. It is also very much a matter of building on both parts of the access to justice report and the work being done by Lord Justice Gillen. <BR /> <BR />I could be picky and say that I have a slight issue with technically supporting the motion, given that it invites me to do something that is actually the responsibility of a new Executive of which, as I have already announced, I do not expect to be part.”
“<BR /> <BR />Alban Maginness referred to the issue of excessive penalisation. Clearly, that is an issue where there is a role for other Departments in setting offences and penalties in their area of responsibility. DOJ largely just provides advice to other Departments to assist them in determining what is appropriate and proportionate. We need to ensure that we always consider whether criminal sanctions are the necessary and appropriate provision as we look at new legislation. We also need to ensure that we consider whether it is appropriate to put a lot of effort into reviewing old and obsolete offences, given the potential for that to be time-consuming. <BR /> <BR />In the brief time that I have had the report, I have noted the contents with considerable sympathy.”
“Again, that issue goes way beyond the direct operation of the justice system at the moment, with particular responsibilities for Health and Social Care and issues relating to education. Members will be aware that the recent decision on the transfer of education responsibilities in Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre is part of that joining-up approach to better meet the needs of young people. Again, I welcome the support that we have had from the judiciary, amongst others, in reducing delay there. We have had positive feedback from the Commissioner for Children and Young People; she has been a critical friend as that work has progressed. I now leave a teaser: as Members have said, I will announce the outcome of the scoping study next Monday, so I will say nothing further on it at this stage.”
“Alban Maginness and Stewart Dickson spoke about youth justice. The Committee report pointed to the need to work more innovatively and collaboratively to develop solutions in the difficult financial circumstances in which we lie. That is a significant part of the work of the scoping study that Members referred to. It follows on from the work of the youth justice review and is aimed at developing radical innovative proposals for positive change. The work being done by the scoping study links directly to a number of the youth justice review recommendations, such as examining the use of PACE and remand, the provision of community alternatives and new methods of disposals.”
“While we are talking about the IT system, although I do not think that it was specifically mentioned, Lord Justice Gillen's report will include references to work on digital courts, which will help us to move forward in that area as well.”
“The future challenge, I suspect, will be to see how we manage to get civil justice into that kind of system rather than purely Causeway's current concentration on the criminal system. <BR /> <BR />During the discussion, there were references to the proposals of Jim Gamble, particularly from Seán Lynch and Sammy Douglas, around child protection issues. This is an issue that we will need to return to to ensure that we get things right. I am glad that we did not proceed with amendments, but I will certainly see that the Department, as long as I have responsibility, continues to do the policy work so that, early in the next mandate, things can be got right.”
“Members are sometimes unaware of the extremely good operation that we already have across the criminal justice organisations with the Causeway digital system, which enables the sharing of information between a number of agencies involved in criminal justice, linking up the agencies' IT systems. The Causeway system is to be re-procured from 2019, and work is already under way to look at an appropriate way of doing that. There is no doubt that colleagues in other jurisdictions in these islands would be delighted to have a system like Causeway. It is, perhaps, one of the benefits of being a relatively small jurisdiction with only one of everything and only 1·8 million people. We are at the forefront of that, but I want to ensure that we stay at the forefront.”
“We need to ensure that the justice system keeps up with that. Obviously, there will always be cases that require a physical courtroom and our adversarial system, but there are many others for which we need to look at different ways. The recommendation in the recent access to justice report that we should look at models such as those in Holland and in parts of Canada will give us the opportunity to learn there. A pilot of online dispute resolution for low-value civil claims is under development in England and Wales. Clearly, that would be closely related to our legal arrangements, and I am keen to see how we learn from that for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />That takes us into the slightly wider points raised by Sammy Douglas, in particular, on justice in the digital age and on ensuring that we make the best use of modern technology.”
“They need to involve a number of agencies and partners, and I am committed to working with other members of the Executive on the appropriate innovative options. In particular, I take the point that Danny Kennedy made earlier about the partnership that is needed between Justice and Health, particularly in dealing with alcohol and drug problems. I also noticed that Mr Kennedy managed to mention Armagh courthouse: there is a surprise. We need to take account of decreasing court business when we look at how we use the court estate, but those points will be borne in mind. <BR /> <BR />The Deputy Chair, Raymond McCartney, spoke significantly about alternative dispute resolution. There is no doubt that there is an increasing expectation that people will be able to carry out business online.”
“Yet again, Mr Kennedy has the ability to read my notes through a couple of sheets of paper over my shoulder. The issue of the criminalisation of TV licence non-payment is one that I raised with the UK Government a couple of years ago and on which I have continued to correspond. Members will also be aware that, because of current arrangements and, in particular, legislation that has recently gone through the House, we no longer see people going to prison for non-payment of fines at an early stage. I trust that we will see the full decriminalisation of non-payment of TV licence fees. They will be treated just like any other utility, which is, in effect, what a TV licence is. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that problem-solving courts are not simply a justice issue.”
“Members, of course, will be aware that, as part of its work last year, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development carried out a specific study of the Derry court arrangements. I hope that we will shortly see its formal report, which will enable us to inform the future direction and development of problem-solving courts in Northern Ireland. As politicians, however, we need to be slightly careful that we do not find ourselves telling the judiciary exactly how it should manage courts on a day-to-day basis.”
“I have also heard examples of other courts, which have not been highlighted along with the others, that include a drug court that operates in inner London. I hope we will see some development around that area because having a problem-solving ethos for victims really does underpin the benefits of having a specialist court listing arrangement.”
“The Chair started off by highlighting the issue of problem-solving courts and the Committee's concern that we learn from best international practice. I agree that, if we develop the concept of a problem-solving approach, a number of offenders in the justice system could be dealt with more quickly. This would mean enabling people to access more appropriate specialist services as opposed to their receiving the, sometimes fairly blunt, response that they get from the criminal justice system in its current form. <BR /> <BR />The Department has been looking at that, and a number of members have already highlighted the current operation in Londonderry Magistrates' Court, which looks at the issue of domestic violence. Indeed, Ms McGahan has just referred to the significant need there and the good work being done by District Judge Mr McElholm.”
“It does bear repetition that, whilst the Committee and the Department do not agree on everything and, I suspect, never will, there has been a high degree of collaboration that has allowed us to pass important and very significant legislation in this mandate in a number of areas to introduce innovative solutions to improve the criminal justice system. I note that at least two members directly quoted Lord Neuberger's remarks when he praised the Committee's efforts and also gave the Minister a tangential reference of praise as well. I have no doubt that the work being done by the Committee will allow for significantly better outcomes for those who come into contact with the justice system in the future. <BR /> <BR />I will try to respond to some of the points that were made by Committee members during the debate.”
“I wish to acknowledge, as Alban Maginness reminded us, the good work being done by the Lord Chief Justice and some of his senior colleagues, which, effectively, opened up the debate around justice issues so as to include the judiciary, recognising that they have to be careful about their role in policy matters. I believe that Sir Declan Morgan has given a very significant and positive lead ever since he started the legal term annual lecture and through his wider engagement with others. <BR /> <BR />I also wish to acknowledge the contribution being made by the Committee, not just with this report but in a number of different areas. Committee members have managed to divide the topics for discussion amongst themselves, leaving me to respond to all of them in somewhat shorter time.”
“I thank the Justice Committee for its work, which led to this report, and for bringing the motion to the Assembly today. The motion refers to the Committee’s 'Report on Justice in the 21st Century: Innovative approaches for the Criminal Justice System in Northern Ireland', and I believe that is an excellent line that we should be accepting of. This excellent report follows a significant series of seminars organised by the Committee that looked at a number of issues in the justice system. <BR /> <BR />The eminent speakers whom they managed to persuade either to come here or to the Royal Courts of Justice have provided a significant amount of thought for people involved in the justice system in general.”
“It is in that context that very serious attention is given to legislation such as this, and I appreciate very much the work that they have done over a number of pieces of legislation, not just the set of draft regulations that is before us today. <BR /> <BR />I also note that, given that the Committee Chair has referred on three occasions today, I think, to the work of the Examiner of Statutory Rules, we are coming close to the point when Mr Gordon Nabney will be retiring from that role. We should acknowledge the very significant amount of work he has put in on behalf of DOJ, never mind for the other 11 Departments. I add my thanks to him whilst noting the unanimous support of Members for the proposals that I put forward.”
“I do not need to repeat my usual joke. Given that this is probably the last piece of secondary legislation that I will present to the Assembly at any stage, I repeat my genuine thanks to the Committee for the work it does in scrutinising what is a very significant amount of legislation and number of policy proposals that go through the Justice Committee. I am not sure whether those Members who volunteered to be members of the Justice Committee, most notably the Chair and the Deputy Chair, realised quite what they were walking into when they accepted office in it, as it has a significant burden of very serious work to do.”
“I commend the draft statutory rule to the House.”
“Legal aid was available for eligible applicants for all these proceedings under the 1981 order, and the draft statutory rule before the House replicates that position. In addition, the draft scope regulations will amend schedule 2 to the 2003 order to preclude the availability of civil legal services to any guardian ad litem for the purposes of any proceedings under the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. Again, that change reflects the previous provision made in article 10(5A)(d) of the 1981 order. <BR /> <BR />These draft regulations, as Members will appreciate as I read them out, are technical and do not make any changes to the eligibility of those applying for legal aid, nor do they change the remuneration payable to legal representatives. They repair lacunae created by a drafting error.”
“<BR /> <BR />Six classes of proceedings have been identified: proceedings under articles 44 or 45 of the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989; proceedings under paragraphs 29 or 36 of schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000; proceedings under article 31B of the Matrimonial and Family Proceedings (Northern Ireland) Order 1989; proceedings before the Parole Commissioners for Northern Ireland; proceedings before the care tribunal under the Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 or the Education (Prohibition from Teaching or Working with Children) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2007; and proceedings under Part XIIIA of the Prison and Young Offenders Centre Rules (Northern Ireland) 1995.”
“In April 2015, the provisions in articles 10 to 20A of the 2003 Order were commenced, replacing all the legal advice and assistance and civil legal aid legislative provisions from the previous framework provided under Part II of the Legal Aid, Advice and Assistance (Northern Ireland) Order 1981. In drafting the instruments, it became apparent that representation for certain proceedings previously provided for was not provided for in article 12(5) of or schedule 2 to the 2003 Order as a service that may be funded as a civil legal service.”
“The draft statutory rule is made under article 12(6) of the Access to Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2003. Members will recall that, last year, I brought forward legislative amendments to introduce civil legal services under the 2003 Order. The effect of those changes was to move the legislation governing civil legal aid from statutes dating back to 1981 to a more modern statutory framework. In bringing forward what was a comprehensive suite of legislative changes, a number of technical errors occurred. The draft statutory rule before the House rectifies that oversight. <BR /> <BR />I will provide clarity for Members.”
“As is customary at this point on secondary legislation, I thank all Members who have contributed and the vast array of Members who have shown their interest by being present in the House. I commend the regulations and ask Members to support the motion.”
“That difference illustrates the much wider spectrum of violent offending and the need to concentrate risk management efforts where they are most needed. <BR /> <BR />The draft regulations are a further step towards the Department's continuing commitment to increase public protection and enhance confidence in the justice system's ability to deliver on that aim. The police and probation service support these notification measures, which they believe will assist them in managing the risk of violent reoffending. I am confident that the regulations that we are debating today will help them in those efforts. <BR /> <BR />I again thank the members of the Justice Committee for their work in scrutinising the regulations. It is with their support that I bring the regulations before the House and commend them to Members.”
“In the case of violent offenders, the notification requirements are attached only to offenders who have been made subject to a violent offences prevention order, and the requirements will last only as long as the order is in place.”
“Finally, the regulations set out the information to be provided on travel outside the United Kingdom. Offenders must notify all travel outside the United Kingdom, except when they travel to the Republic of Ireland, where they must notify when they intend to travel for a period of three or more days. That less onerous requirement on cross-border travel is a practical necessity for those who routinely cross the border. <BR /> <BR />The concept of notification is, of course, familiar to many. It has long been the case that sex offenders have had to notify, and the arrangements mirror that regime with one difference. Sex offenders are required to notify as a result of a conviction for a sexual offence, and the length of their notification period is tied to the severity of the sentence.”
“<BR /> <BR />The draft regulations will require an offender who has no fixed abode or regular address to notify the police every week so that they can confirm a place where they can be found. That will help the police to monitor individuals better in those circumstances. The regulations will require an offender to notify the police if they have resided or stayed for 12 hours or more at an address where there is a child under the age of 18. That will help ensure that there is a focus on child protection. Offenders will also have to give information to the police about any bank accounts or credit and debit cards held by them alone or with another person for private and business purposes. Passport details and other forms of ID will also be required.”
“The draft regulations set out in detail the information that will be required in addition to the standard material required by provisions of the Act. <BR /> <BR />Those made subject to one of the new orders will be required to provide certain basic personal information to police, such as their name, date of birth, National Insurance number and home address. Such information assists in the prevention and investigation of crime and in protecting the public from the risk of further offending. The primary provisions in the Justice Act require that the information provided at initial notification must be updated by the offender periodically — normally annually — or when any changes occur. Failure to comply with the requirements is a criminal offence punishable by a maximum penalty of five years' imprisonment.”
“I will try to keep going for as long as the quorum is here. <BR /> <BR />The aim of the draft regulations is to increase public protection against the risk of violent reoffending. The Justice Act 2015 contains the primary legislation for the introduction of violent offences prevention orders (VOPOs) and includes a power to make regulations prescribing the information to be notified to the police by an offender made subject to an order. The draft regulations that I propose are being made under that statutory power. <BR /> <BR />As part of the new provisions, a violent offender made subject to a court order will be required to notify certain personal details to the police in the same manner as is already required for sex offenders.”
“As usual, I welcome the support from the vast number of Members who spoke and, indeed, from the huge crowds who are here. I suspect that Mark Carruthers and the entire BBC 'Stormont Today' team are hunched over their laptops watching their screens in the basement, desperate to know which of the three issues they will particularly highlight. <BR /> <BR />Actually, this is a serious issue, and I genuinely thank the Committee again for the work that it puts into scrutinising such legislation. I commend the motion to the House.”
“<BR /> <BR />The draft regulations before the House have been the subject of a targeted consultation. All members of the Northern Ireland judicial pension scheme, as well as representative judicial bodies and associations, were pre-notified of the consultation, which ran from 6 November to 20 November last year. No specific comments were received. The draft regulations have also been subject to an equality screening exercise, and no equality issues were identified. <BR /> <BR />On 18 February this year, the Justice Committee agreed that it was content with the draft regulations, and it is with its support that I bring forward and commend these regulations to the House.”
“Schedule 13 to the Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 provides for the abolition of contracting out of public service pension schemes by way of an amendment to the Pension Schemes (Northern Ireland) Act 1993. The 2015 Act introduces the date of 6 April 2016 for the abolition of contracting out of salary-related schemes. These amendments to primary legislation require a technical change to the Judicial Pensions Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2015 to ensure the continued protection of guaranteed minimum pension benefits for scheme members who were contracted out of the second state earnings related pension scheme between 6 April 1978 and 5 April 1997. The same technical changes are required in respect of all Northern Ireland public service pension schemes.”
“His service to the community is not just when he is wearing a prison officer's uniform — although it is significant when he wears that uniform — but he is active elsewhere. He is the kind of citizen that society needs. He is the kind of person who is of benefit to the public service as well as to the wider community, and he is a fine person who had no reason to be attacked. He was a person who was doing his duty in uniform, as well as being an active citizen elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />I join in sending, again, my best wishes to him, his family, his friends and his colleagues. They are all in our thoughts and prayers, and we trust that we will see him receive a speedy recovery.”
“<BR /> <BR />What is most important is the resolution and determination shown by all in the Prison Service and Police Service in standing up to those who would carry out such an attack. I am grateful to hear the messages of condemnation that came from right across the community, not just from parties represented in the Assembly but from others far beyond it, making it absolutely clear that these people have nothing to offer us. It appears that they are more wedded to some form of struggle than to any possible outcome. The unity of the community in standing against them is much to be welcomed and applauded. <BR /> <BR />I met the officer concerned a few months ago, when I was out on one of my visits. He is an officer with a significant number of years' service who plays a key part in the Prison Service. He is also active in the community.”
“On Friday morning, I had the opportunity to speak to some members of his family, and I was pleased to see the support that they were already receiving from members of the Prison Service Central Benevolent Fund as they coped with the potentially tragic news that had been inflicted on them, because they were still unsure of how things were. <BR /> <BR />I spoke also to senior officers in the Prison Service and in the PSNI. The director general — I think that this is now public — has made it clear that she has requested an updated assessment of the security threat to her staff. I have no doubt that that will be supplied speedily and that the Police Service will continue to support prison officers as best it can.”
“I wish to add my words of condemnation and sympathy. What happened on Friday morning was an outrageous attack. Not only was it an attempt to take the life of an individual prison officer, it was an attack on anybody who happened to be in the vicinity. It put lives at risk, and it was an attack on all who work in the Prison Service. As such, it has to be resisted by all of us. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased that the injuries to the officer were not as severe as first feared, and I add my wishes for his speedy recovery.”
“<BR /> <BR />He is quite right when he talks about a wide range of people. He talked about home helps going into individual houses. In my previous career as a social worker, I know that you can sometimes feel at risk going out late at night on your own to a difficult mental health or childcare case. So, there are genuine issues that may need to be explored, but what we have done in the work between Mr Frew, the departmental officials and our colleagues in Health is ensure that we tighten up the issue of paramedics and first responders. I think that that is the key point. Other than that, there was nothing but uniform praise, so I should probably say nothing else.”
“No doubt, all Members are avid followers of me on social media, and they will have seen four weeks ago that I received a training course in CPR as part of a visit to Hampshire from a member of the Southern Ambulance Service, who was there in a uniform but purely as a volunteer and is part of the full working relationship in that trust. We are at a slightly different level, and I would be cautious about intruding on the responsibility of the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, but my understanding is that the definition is written sufficiently widely that anybody who is called out by the trust will carry out the duties as defined in subsection (2). If that is not the case, Mr Frew can take it up with my successor or with the next Minister of Health in the next Assembly as to exactly how that will be dealt with.”
“My understanding, and I will caveat this heavily because I do not have specific legal guidance on it, is that a first responder who is called out by the Ambulance Service trust is a person carrying out duties as defined in clause 54(2); therefore I believe they would be covered. Part of the issue, which was perhaps where Mr McMullan was starting from, is that first responders are at a relatively early stage of development in Northern Ireland. Certainly, I had contact with some on Islandmagee a few years ago. Mr McMullan talked about first responders in the glens.”