David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
The complete record
Every one of 2,469 lines we hold for David Ford, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 21 of 50.
“The point was made that the Lord Chief Justice has concerns about assuming that presidency given the current difficulties, and those discussions are continuing, to ensure that we maximise the resilience of the Coroners Service in order to enable the Lord Chief Justice to take the lead. Such a move would then bring the Coroners' Courts into line with the other courts in Northern Ireland by confirming that statutory leadership role on the Lord Chief Justice. As president, he will have power to designate a presiding judge for the Coroners' Courts. <BR /> <BR />A judicial-led assessment of the state of readiness of the 55 outstanding legacy inquests is under way. Members will recall that many of those 55 outstanding inquests relate to inquests that the Attorney General has directed be reopened in recent years.”
“The Coroners Service will produce an annual report to the president of the Coroners Court to drive standards, challenge delay and improve consistency of approach, and it will revise current case allocation and management arrangements to ensure that the workload is evenly spread amongst coroners and that a consistent service is delivered to bereaved families. The Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service has also appointed a senior manager to support the coroners in managing the service. <BR /> <BR />Separately, discussions are taking place to confirm the timing by which the Lord Chief Justice will assume the presidency of the Coroners' Courts as legislated for by this Assembly under the Legal Aid and Coroners' Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 2014.”
“I believe that a number of the recommendations will have a positive impact on the Coroners Service and, in particular, the problem of inquest delay. <BR /> <BR />The most relevant recommendations include that the Coroners Service review listing procedures to ensure that inquests are held at the earliest possible date, agreeing time frames with interested parties for submission of statements and reducing the number of adjournments. It will also review performance targets with a view to including targets in relation to completing investigations and holding inquests, and to implementing a monitoring mechanism of charter standards to ensure compliance.”
“The coroners are also supported by independent legal counsel. The Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service launched a scheme to refresh the panel of counsel on 11 September with a closing date of 16 October 2015. I expect successful candidates to be in post by 30 November, subject to security clearance. <BR /> <BR />Some Members are clearly well aware that the Courts and Tribunals Service recently reviewed the operation of the Coroners Service. The aim was to provide resilience in the service and to contribute to the development and implementation of arrangements for the processing of legacy inquests within the context of the Stormont House Agreement. A report with 13 recommendations has been agreed following consultation with the Lord Chief Justice and other key stakeholders.”
“In addition to those references to an additional County Court judge and, in the first occasion, of a High Court Judge undertaking the Jordan inquest, I have separately asked the Lord Chief Justice to exercise his statutory powers, which were highlighted by Mr Lynch, under section 6(2) of the Coroners Act (Northern Ireland) 1959 to appoint temporary additional coroners for the next few months to cover illness of existing coroners. <BR /> <BR />Arrangements are also under way to recruit two investigating officers to provide advice and guidance to the coroners on appropriate and effective investigative opportunities and to conduct inquiries and investigations as directed by the coroners. This important development will support preparation for the holding of inquests in a manner compliant with article 2 — a further cost.”
“I certainly thank Mrs Kelly for that intervention. I would like to have her with me when I meet DFP officials to communicate views to the Treasury. The unfortunate reality seems to be that for issues that are now our responsibility we do not obtain additional funding; though she correctly highlights that the UK Government, as the state party, is the responsible body that has to report on the undertakings given previously and deal with the previous findings of inadequate processes. Sadly, the funding does not seem to follow the responsibilities that have now been passed on to us.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members will also be aware that a High Court judge has also recently been assigned by the Lord Chief Justice to deal with the new inquest to be held into the death of Pearse Jordan in accordance with the recent Court of Appeal judgement. This will also have additional costs for the DOJ for a replacement judge to take over other High Court functions.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members will be aware — and if any in the Chamber were not aware before others spoke, they are now — that Northern Ireland has a complement of three full-time coroners. As the senior coroner is retiring on 31 October 2015, a competition to appoint a successor was launched by the Judicial Appointments Commission on 10 September, with a closing date of today. <BR /> <BR />In the meantime, the Lord Chief Justice has assigned a County Court judge to the Coroners Service to provide additional capacity. To facilitate this deployment of a judge from another tier, I have agreed to an increase in the County Court judge complement. The funding for this is being found from within my Department pending the resolution of the impasse over the funding for the Stormont House Agreement.”
“Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I welcome this debate today: it not only addresses an extremely important issue regarding dealing with the past; but it also provides me with an opportunity to update Members of the House on the resources that are being provided to the Coroners Service, to ensure that it continues to fulfil its obligations after the retirement of the senior coroner. <BR /> <BR />It is also right that I should detail the progress made over recent months to improve the resilience of the service consistent with the Stormont House Agreement. My aim is to ensure that the legacy inquest process is better equipped to meet the needs of bereaved families and is capable of being conducted in compliance with European Convention on Human Rights article 2 requirements.”
“Mr McGimpsey highlights a serious problem. The role of the Minister of Justice is to do the best that he can to supply the resources to the justice agencies that are concerned with fighting that criminal activity. At the same time, other Ministers — most notably, the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, a post in which Mr McGimpsey has considerable experience — are doing their best to educate people and assist those who wish to move away from heroin addiction.”
“We all would do well to listen to not just the voice of the chair of the CBI but the voices of the Church leaders last week and those of a number of community and voluntary sector groups, reflected through the chair of the Community Relations Council on radio this morning.”
“I am certainly happy to agree with my colleague on that one. I was not aware that the current chair of the CBI was a spokesperson for the Alliance Party, but it did seem that what he said was entirely sound, in that there is an impetus on all of us to see that the Stormont House Agreement delivers. <BR /> <BR />Standing here as the only Minister who is here because he had the confidence of the Assembly to be elected Justice Minister, I do think that there are significant positives in looking at slightly different ways of doing things that promote a more joined-up way of providing government for the people of Northern Ireland.”
“I am sure that Mr Sheehan will want the Minister of Justice to refer to good activity that the Minister sees being done on integrating members of a diverse community in different ways into the way in which our system of government operates. Whether I as Minister of Justice have the power to set officially a number for those whom we should be admitting from Syria, Eritrea or wherever, I am not sure, but I think that he makes a very valid point that people from this island have left and gone to many other parts of the world when we had difficulties here. It is only but reasonable that we should recognise that we now have the ability to help people going through utterly traumatic circumstances in the Middle East and elsewhere.”
“I am honestly not sure what the Minister of Justice can say in response to that question, which did not quite touch on any justice responsibilities. If Mr Sheehan wants me to apologise for the fact that I was not here last week because I was in Stormont House when the debate on welcoming refugees was put forward by my party colleagues, I am happy to say that I am fully in line with what my party colleagues said that day.”
“Yes, that point is well made. I have had the opportunity on two or three occasions recently to meet staff working in some of the more difficult areas — with some of the category A and separated prisoners — in Maghaberry, and I have done my best as Minister to convey my support for the work that they do in protecting the community in quite difficult circumstances inside the prison. Frankly, it is one of the more difficult areas in which people have to work anywhere in the public service in Northern Ireland. I certainly join Mr Dickson in making positive comments about that work, and I trust that other Members, while they may have concerns about the way in which prisons operate, will recognise the extremely good work that is being done by many of our officers under quite difficult conditions.”
“My information is that, in the couple of months since the beginning of August, there has been a 35% reduction in sickness absence levels at Maghaberry, which is, I think, a good indication of the work that is being done by Phil Wragg as governor and by his senior team.”
“Those rates are understandable to a certain level in that a prison officer who works on a landing may well not be fit to go to work when somebody with basically a desk job might be, but there were issues that needed be addressed and that I believe are being addressed.”
“I thank Mr Dickson for that question. I am glad that a number of members of the Justice Committee — though perhaps fewer than there might have been — were able to do that visit last week. It was important that they had the opportunity to see Maghaberry and to speak directly to staff there, whether at management or operational level. <BR /> <BR />Mr Dickson highlights specifically the issue of sickness, and there is no doubt that there was an issue. In the context of sickness rates across the Civil Service, the Department of Justice scores badly, largely because of high sickness rates in the Prison Service.”
“It will continue to be supported, but a lot of it depends on local initiative and local partnership working, which the Department can support but cannot initiate.”
“The justice system has ways of supporting those who have been victims of crime, whether it is urban or rural and whether it is specifically agricultural or not. Clearly, issues of particular concern tend to bubble up in one area or another at different times, but the key issue for me is not simply saying what is being done for the victims after the crime but saying what is being done to fight the crime. We have seen activities such as a number of rural PCSPs promoting the agenda on matters like Farmwatch, running trailer-marking schemes and the subsidy that we are able to give to people who put tracker machines on heavy machinery such as tractors. Those are all ways in which the fight against rural crime has been supported.”
“I think that Mrs Dobson missed the comments that I made earlier about rural crime, but there is no doubt that there have been significant hotspots for rural crime in some areas, particularly border areas of Armagh and Tyrone. Although the most recent statistics that I saw pointed to a reduction in rural crime in most of Northern Ireland, there are clearly operational issues for the police at one level, but also issues that require joined-up work in partnership to fight those who engage in that kind of crime rather than merely to deal with crime when it happens. In many cases, that good work is being done by PCSPs and others as they look to different ways of addressing rural crime.”
“Phil Wragg, who is currently acting as governor, has previously governed Belmarsh, which is one of the other most complex prisons in the UK though not as complex as Maghaberry, and that is an indication of his understanding of dealing with those issues. Good work is already being done, including, for example, on addressing sickness rates amongst prison officers, as I mentioned earlier.”
“No, I do not accept that Maghaberry is not fit for purpose. I accept that it appears likely that the Criminal Justice Inspection report, which is a snapshot report from an unannounced inspection some time ago, will show that there were significant concerns at the time. <BR /> <BR />Many Members will be aware of very significant work that has been done, even since that inspection, to enhance the service that is provided at Maghaberry. In particular, the new director of operations is acting as governor of Maghaberry, and most of the senior team has been refreshed in order to strengthen that team and to deal with the difficult issues that surround Maghaberry, which is the most complex prison anywhere in the United Kingdom.”
“No, I have not been briefed on that, although I have been given a general indication of the indication that was given to officers of the Prison Service.”
“I also need to be careful that I do not suggest that, until after next May, the Minister of Justice can speak specifically for the Fire and Rescue Service.”
“The Programme for Government commitment is to integrated training, and that is my commitment. It is also the case that since the original proposals for an integrated community safety college were made, the training requirements of all three services have been reduced significantly — in fact, by 48%. That calls into question some of the original proposals. <BR /> <BR />There are also issues in particular for policing. The modern trend, in not just the UK but wider afield, is that people may enter the Police Service having a number of basic qualifications, so there is significantly less training to be done. The issue is to see the best way to provide appropriate training for the three services, acknowledging that the needs of each have changed.”
“The answer to the current issue is that the matter remains under consideration. There has been a preliminary report to the two Ministers looking at the revision of the business case, which is due to be made available from the programme board by the end of November. At that point, the two Ministers will have to consider the options with the three services and report to the Executive on the way forward, since the community safety college is an Executive commitment. The timetable for the next significant progress is towards the end of November.”
“I am sorry, but having said that I cannot answer for the Chief Constable, I must say that I cannot answer for members of the judiciary on individual sentencing policy. The House will know that I may have a role in general guidelines. We have examples where that matter is being looked at in work being done by the Lord Chief Justice. <BR /> <BR />I keep potential penalties under review across a range of offences, including those that are the responsibility of other Ministers, where my Department has responsibility for seeing that offences and penalties are consistent, but I cannot possibly comment on individual cases.”
“I am sorry, but that is an operational issue for the PSNI, and I cannot, as Minister, give account for operational responses by the Chief Constable.”
“In the majority of cases, the Department now relies on the written evidence that it makes available to the commissioners in a dossier. However, in circumstances where the panel or departmental officials feel the need to have additional support, legal representation will still be employed.”
“However, following consultation with the Parole Commissioners, the Department came to the view that that practice was unnecessary in the majority of cases and risked changing the tenor of hearings to one that was adversarial in nature. This over-reliance on legal support was simply not financially sustainable.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Department had previously sought to mirror this representation, and a custom and practice emerged that saw a solicitor and, perhaps, counsel supporting the Department.”
“Parole commissioner hearings are intended to be inquisitorial and the nature of these hearings as informal as possible. The Department of Justice submits a dossier to the panel, covering all aspects of the prisoner's time in custody, including reports on the index offence, details of programmes undertaken while in prison, psychological reports and an assessment of the risk of reoffending following release. Parole commissioners are responsible for coming to a view on the potential for release once they have taken account of all the information presented. The prisoner may apply for legal aid so that he or she can appoint legal representation for support at the hearing.”
“<BR /> <BR />By and large, I think, when one compares the work of the prison reform programme with that which happened with the formation of the PSNI and looks at the amount of resources that were given to prisons compared with that which was given to the Police Service, one sees that there has been very considerable success, although undoubtedly, particularly on the point of capital, which I mentioned earlier, progress has not been quite as rapid as we would have hoped.”
“I thank Mr Maginness not only for his question but for his ongoing support for the reform programme, which is not always common amongst barristers in the Chamber. He refers to cuts having an effect on the programme, and there is no doubt that, overall, the reform programme has succeeded extremely well despite the problems, but the day-to-day running of prisons has been affected by significant reductions in budgets, unfortunately, particularly at times when there are problems with excessive numbers of prison staff being sick. There has been a recent increase in the number of early lockdowns, and there is no doubt that that does not benefit rehabilitation. We need to continue to address those bits of work, at the same time as we set the wider, overarching proposals.”
“That is not always easy, given that, at times, we seek to allow prisoners home leave, and people come and go to courts and hospital appointments or whatever. We also want to ensure that those who want to get away from a drug problem are assisted in doing it. There is no doubt that a very large number of those who are admitted to custody have a pre-existing drug addiction problem and there is significant work to be done to assist them to get away from it.”
“Mr Beggs certainly puts his finger on an issue where there is a very significant problem in terms of running prisons. Given that drugs are a problem in society generally, it is perhaps no surprise that they are also a problem in prisons. Last year, I had the opportunity to visit one particular landing in Maghaberry, where a group of predominantly young male prisoners were seeking to overcome addiction problems and were engaging in a very intensive programme run partly by the Prison Service and partly by one of our NGO partners. The programme showed very good results in terms of the positive options that people were taking. <BR /> <BR />It is an ongoing issue to ensure that, as far as possible, the security of prisons is managed by stopping drugs coming in.”
“There is no doubt that we have seen good responses from the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA) in the assessments that it is doing on the work being carried out on the healthcare side, just as we have seen some positive responses from CJINI on the Prison Service side. It is fair to say that whilst it has not always been easy to manage the healthcare aspects, a lot of good work has been done in recent time, which, I hope, will see significant progress across all three prisons in the near future.”
“I thank Mr Lynch for that question. There is no doubt that there have been some difficulties in healthcare across all the prisons. There is no doubt that the transfer of healthcare responsibilities to the South Eastern Trust a few years ago was done to ensure that a body that has experience of healthcare was responsible for it, but there is also no doubt that the Prison Service knows more about running prisons than the South Eastern Trust does. <BR /> <BR />What we have seen, albeit on a slightly slower timeline than some other aspects of the prison reform programme, is good work now being done. When the oversight group meets, it is attended by the permanent secretary or another senior DHSSPS representative and representatives from the trust.”
“We will shortly see the opening of a step-down facility for women on the Hydebank site but outside the wall, which is a major step forward in promoting rehabilitation. We, of course, now have Hydebank Wood operating as a college with the full partnership of the Department for Employment and Learning alongside the Belfast Metropolitan College. <BR /> <BR />All those are very positive signs, but there is no doubt that the reform programme has been more difficult at Maghaberry, which is probably the most complex prison in the United Kingdom and where there have been a number of significant problems in the recent past. However, I am glad to say that the new director of operations, working in his capacity as governor of Maghaberry at this stage, is starting to make major changes there for the good.”
“I thank my colleague for the supplementary question. <BR /> <BR />She is absolutely right when she makes it clear that there is a need to embed those reforms right across the prison system, which means all three institutions and the way the system as a whole functions, along with issues like, for example, the prisoner escort and custody services (PECS). There is no doubt that the reforms have perhaps made greater progress in some places than others. <BR /> <BR />We just highlighted the capital build at Magilligan. Although some extremely good work is being done in Magilligan, there is no doubt that the inadequate accommodation in which much of the training and employment opportunities are provided does not help. <BR /> <BR />We have seen some extremely good work being done amongst young offenders and women in Hydebank.”
“On recommendation 13, significant progress has been made on developing the strategy, and my Department will continue to work with DHSSPS colleagues on that. <BR /> <BR />Four key strategic themes have emerged on which the prison system will continue to focus to ensure that it plays its part in building a safer Northern Ireland. The four themes are leadership; purposeful activity; partnership with healthcare; and a fit-for-purpose prison estate. While the official structures around the reform programme will come to a close in the coming months, that will not mean the end of change. The Northern Ireland Prison Service will continue to embed the reforms implemented throughout the programme.”
“Of the 40 recommendations made by the prison review team, only two remain outstanding, with 33 having been signed off and three remaining under assessment by the oversight group. An additional two recommendations have been referred by the oversight group to the Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI) for independent assessment. <BR /> <BR />The oversight group accepts that delivery of recommendation 3, on effective community sentences, and recommendation 13, on the joint health and justice strategy, will fall outside the lifespan of the reform programme. However, it is important to say that good progress continues to be made on those two complex recommendations. Regarding recommendation 3, work is ongoing with the Lord Chief Justice to consider alternatives to custody without the need for legislative change.”
“That has had to be taken into account as well.”
“I am not sure that the Department has the capacity to do a full analysis of the economic impact on individuals, but I repeat the point I made that, whilst accepting that Mr McGlone has a point about those who have difficulty in funding travel, there is the significant issue that access to justice does not simply mean having a courtroom close at hand if that courtroom is not fit for purpose and does not operate in an efficient way that meets people's needs. There are many advantages for vulnerable victims and witnesses if they are attending some of our more modern courthouses with facilities for segregation, better arrangements for video links and whatever. Access to justice is, therefore, a matter not simply of physical proximity but of how the justice system treats those who need to use the courts when they are in them.”
“As part of the examination and the report that was put out for consultation, there was examination of issues like travel time and arrangements between, potentially, closing courts and, potentially, remaining open courts.”
“I am happy to give Ms Boyle, as I give many Members of the House on a variety of occasions, a firm promise that the Department does not do anything without consulting the Committee, because, given our structures and the fact that, on a good day, I have the support of 10 or 11 people in the House, I know that we would not get very far if we did not have the support of the Committee. The Committee will be taken into account fully as we look at the options. That does not mean that the Committee will be able, any more than the Department is, to ignore the blunt financial realities of the world we live in; the decreasing amount of business going through our courts and the decreasing amount of money that is available to run our courts.”
“As I stated at the last questions for oral answer, the consultation on the rationalisation of the court estate closed on 18 May 2015. The responses to the consultation have been analysed and advice will be submitted to me next month.”
“I told him that I agreed with that, but pointed out that, as a MLA for South Antrim, I believe that it starts halfway across the Toome bridge. It is certainly not a case of matters being centralised in Belfast: it is a matter of using the opportunities with business and local councils for the constructive activity that was promised. Those promises are still there. That is part of the plan for the redevelopment of Magilligan.”
“I cannot accept the thesis that there is prevarication around Desertcreat, which is the responsibility of the DOJ, and which is, apart from anything else, an Executive project that is led jointly by the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, when we have one, and me. I also think that it is fairly clear that the commitment I made to Magilligan, in defiance of a recommendation from the prison reform team that all adult male prisoners should be housed at Maghaberry, is an indication that there is genuine commitment. I do remember, around that time, meeting a group of councillors from some of the councils in the north-west, one of whom somewhat grumpily told me that he thought that some people believed that the world ended at Sandyknowes.”