David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“I can certainly assure the House, as I assured members of the Coleraine and Ballymoney Solicitors’ Association last Friday night, that I am not slavishly following the disaster of England and Wales. <BR /> <BR />These regulations are, of course, absolutely nothing to do with the amount of legal aid but are to do with ensuring that we get matters right. I note in particular the Chair's opening comments. As he acknowledged, defects in the rules that were originally laid were pointed out by the Examiner of Statutory Rules, and I think that we can all agree that it is important that we get it right. It is a question of getting it right at the right time in the right way, and I apologise to the Committee that we did not do that on this occasion.”
“In my customary way in these short debates, I thank all the Members who have contributed to it. <BR /> <BR />I noticed that Alban Maginness, with his usual good humour, referred to the generally good relationship between the Committee and the Department, and he even managed to go completely off-message in criticising the process of legal aid reforms and was allowed to by you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I trust that I may respond briefly to that point. I am well aware of some of the problems that have arisen over legal aid reform in England and Wales. There is no issue of slavishly following, but there is the issue that budgets have to be dealt with. Mr Deputy Speaker, I visited your constituency last Friday night and voluntarily subjected myself to attend the annual dinner of the local solicitors' association and be lobbied by some on the issue.”
“The appeals panel will comprise three people drawn from a wide pool of suitably qualified people from a range of professional backgrounds, with a legally qualified presiding member, all recruited through the public appointment process. The new approach will be more open and transparent than the current arrangements, with written reasons provided by appeal panels on their decisions. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Justice Committee for its careful consideration of the draft regulations and its swift scrutiny of the revised regulations in recognition of the time pressures involved in bringing forward this suite of legislation necessary to commence civil legal services. It is with the Committee's support that I bring this draft statutory rule before the House today. I commend it to the House.”
“Members will recall from our debate on the Legal Aid and Coroners' Courts Bill a few months ago that decisions in individual cases will be taken on the merits of the case. Safeguards have been put in place to ensure that those decisions are not influenced by external interference or political considerations. The appeals mechanism is one of those safeguards to protect the independence of individual decisions on the grant of civil legal aid. Individuals will have access to a robust and independent appeals mechanism to consider appeals against individual decisions. <BR /> <BR />The principles of the appeals process are as follows: appeals will be considered on the basis of the relevant statutory test, depending on the subject matter of the appeal.”
“The Legal Services Commission is responsible for granting legal aid under the civil legal aid schemes, and there is a right of appeal against decisions taken by the commission. When the legal services agency is created on 1 April, the function of granting or refusing funding in civil cases will transfer from the Northern Ireland Legal Services Commission to the director of legal aid casework. Decisions on the award of funding or further funding will be based on the relevant statutory provisions and the requirements of the scheme.”
“This draft statutory rule is one of four regulations we will be debating today to commence civil legal services under the 2003 order and transfer the functions and staff of the Legal Services Commission to an executive agency of my Department. This provides a timely opportunity to move the legislation governing civil legal aid on to a modern statutory platform. <BR /> <BR />Under the Access to Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2003, as amended by the Legal Aid and Coroners' Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 2014, my Department is responsible for making regulations to establish a procedure for appeals against decisions on applications for funding by way of civil legal services. It is also responsible for the appointment of independent appeal panels. <BR /> <BR />It may be helpful if I explain how the current arrangements will change.”
“I am not sure where Mr Beggs gets that figure from, but it is certainly my expectation that we will see legislation in this Assembly mandate, which has little more than a year to run. It will then be a matter of ensuring that all the necessary measures within that, with, if necessary, supporting secondary legislation, are in place as soon as possible. Yes, it is unfortunate, but the reality is that the legislative process takes time if it is to ensure that the matter is got right. We are trying to fix a problem, and there is no point in doing something rapidly that will not stand the test of time and produce a viable solution for the future.”
“As we seek to ensure the additional methods by which fines will be paid, whether deductions from earnings or whatever, there is a better chance that, in a year or so, we will have a much better system in operation than has been the case for a number of years.”
“Again, I do not have the details of the schedule in front of me, but the answer is that work is being carried forward as urgently as possible, recognising the very significant issues, as the Member said, of court time, prison time and the completely unexpected judicial decision that it was not possible to place in custody fine defaulters without a further court hearing. A lot of court time has been taken up in addressing those issues. A very large number of those cases have gone through satisfactorily. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, there are issues as we look to civilianise fine enforcement and take it away from being a burden on the Police Service.”
“No. I believe that the stocktake report was a genuine assessment of the situation that we were in. I am extremely grateful to the team of independent assessors for the work that it has done. The Prison Service continues to seek to build on that through things like the prisoner forum and other measures to make the situation as normal as possible, given the fact that separated prisoners are in an abnormal position.”
“The separated regime in Roe House operates as it has done for a significant time; it long predates the devolution of justice. As ever, there have been continuing difficulties at times with some of those within the separated regime. Following on from the stocktake report by the assessment team, work has been done to seek to create a better atmosphere. Prison Service staff have done a lot of work, including some measures to improve the supervision ratios that have been seen from the prisoners' point of view, while still ensuring the safety and security of prisoners, but there is no doubt that some prisoners and some of their supporters outside the jail continue to threaten and intimidate both personally and by the use of social media.”
“I am quite prepared to accept Mr Craig's figure. If he says that it is £14 million, it is very similar to the understanding that I had a few months ago. I am not sure how much evidence there is, but there is certainly a concern on the part of the police and other agencies that, if we had not proceeded to pass the order to allow the legislation to pass at Westminster to make the NCA fully operational here, there would have been a very significant risk of international crime groups establishing here. If Mr Craig is suggesting that that had already begun to happen, that is all the more reason to see that we get the NCA operational and fully supported by public representatives in the House in the important work that it will do in fighting that kind of crime.”
“I am afraid that I cannot give Mr Craig an exact date. The best answer that I can give is two months from the point when the necessary order is passed at Westminster. I have not seen that specifically timetabled, though my understanding is that it is due in the next week or 10 days. The intention is that the necessary measure will be passed through both Houses at Westminster in advance of the dissolution of Parliament for the general election. The timescale is two months from that date. As to the specific issue of civil backlog, I do not have the details in front of me at the moment, but, when we were debating the issue, I pointed out that we had had something like a 70% reduction in the number of civil cases that could be considered. Clearly, that can now be stepped back up again.”
“We need to be very careful before we talk about "murders carried out by state forces" in the plural; if the Member can say "allegations of murders carried out by state forces", it might be slightly accurate. Yes, I fully support the concept of the HIU. That is why the DOJ has been doing a lot of work since 23 December to establish the HIU to ensure that it can operate in a way that provides confidence, deals with the past and separates the PSNI today from the toxic issues of the past.”
“Clearly, I would be concerned if I thought that there was any issue about public confidence in the PSNI in general. However, when we look at issues that happened 40 years ago, so many matters come into play that it is a long way from my responsibility to ensure confidence in the work of the PSNI, as they police 2015 and not 1974.”
“Again, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I refer Mr Boylan to the consultation document, which makes clear information on the transfer of business to the significantly better buildings that we have in the more modern parts of our estate, which are better able to meet the needs of 21st-century justice, and how that will be carried through to ensure continuing access to justice, including access to court sittings. In the review of the closure of Bangor courthouse and the transfer of business to Newtownards, I notice that business was seen to proceed more efficiently on the amalgamation of the two courts. So there is no reason to suggest that there will be any restriction on access to justice.”
“The simple answer to a question as specific as that is no, I cannot tell the Member how much money was spent on refurbishment before my time as Minister, and I cannot say how much the current running costs are. All those figures, excluding, possibly, the refurbishment costs, but the ongoing costs and the anticipated savings are available in the consultation document that was circulated by my Department and which is readily available to anybody, not just to MLAs. <BR /> <BR />The future use of the courthouse is not an issue for my Department. If any building is redundant from the use of my Department, it is offered to other public bodies and then put on the open market for sale.”
“The rationale that I gave was not mine; it was the rationale put forward by the Law Society when it talked about costs being less. So if Ms Sugden thinks that I am wrong, I suggest that she take it up with the Law Society, which I was quoting. <BR /> <BR />She asked about consultation. Frankly, everything that the Department of Justice has done since I became Minister has been the subject of public consultation, although, clearly, in many cases, it has been only those with specific interests who have commented on them. There has been a public consultation process that has included everything that has been proposed or everything that will be proposed in the future.”
“That will continue to be my aim, but the reality is that fees in Northern Ireland have traditionally been paid at a more generous level, which slightly contradicts the kind of view that is put forward by bodies like the Law Society when it suggests that external bodies could come in and provide back office legal services because the costs of running a business in Northern Ireland are lower than elsewhere in the Western World.”
“I am afraid that I have to disagree with the premise on which that question is based, because what we are looking at are reforms that will, to some extent, alter scope around things like money damages, continual applications on family matters for access and so on, but will fundamentally preserve a fee that is similar to that which applies in England and Wales and is generally in excess of that fee for work that is done in ongoing cases. <BR /> <BR />The reality is that we have to live within the budget, and the budget for legal aid has been exceeded every year since some time before devolution. That is no longer possible. Therefore, cuts have to be made, but a lot of work has been done so far to ensure that there is no reduction in access to justice.”
“If Members of this House who have not sat at the party leaders' meetings on Monday afternoons saw what happened inside that room to proposals that were being put forward by anybody, including by me as Minister and officials from DOJ, they would not suggest that there was no scrutiny in that gathering.”
“There are significant issues on the timing of the legislation, and the fact is that there will be elements of the HIU that might relate on a UK-wide basis and would therefore have to be considered by the Westminster Parliament anyway and to ensure that we got the HIU into place as soon as possible, subject to other discussions over the last 24 hours.”
“<BR /> <BR />The recent CJINI report and the recommendations that it made provided the opportunity to address a broader range of strategic and operational issues and to reshape the partnerships accordingly. CJINI's recommendation that PCSP action plans should feed into community plans and that alignment with the aims of the statutory partners and other central government strategies should be explicit will, when implemented, further strengthen the links between PCSPs and community plans. The joint committee will provide guidance to the reconstituted PCSPs on a range of PCSP-related business, including how to prepare their action plans, and will include advice that the plans should feed into community plans.”
“I am not sure what Hansard will make of that, Principal Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />On 25 February, I met chief executives, members of the Policing Board and heads of statutory bodies who are designated members of policing and community safety partnerships. We considered a range of issues relating to the partnerships, including measures to maximise their impact on local policing and community safety priorities and to ensure that they play a key role in the new community planning structures. This meeting followed ongoing discussions between officials from the DOJ and the Policing Board, chief executives and other key stakeholders in preparation for the new community planning structures.”
“I would hope that we would see progress arising from the work that is being done by my officials in parallel with the progress of the Bill, but, clearly and unfortunately, it will be 2016 before we see it in place.”
“<BR /> <BR />We will also look at the charges. In England and Wales, it costs £13 to be annually registered, which is somewhat less than the current one-off fee in Northern Ireland. However, it will continue to be free for those who use the check purely for volunteering purposes.”
“I entirely agree with Ms Sugden. Before the change of the last Westminster Government and during the first year of the devolution of justice, work was being done to look at a portable check. However, that was changed because of changes in the Home Office that meant that we could not proceed on the timescale that we had hoped. <BR /> <BR />We have included provisions for the introduction of a portable check in the Justice Bill, which is at Committee Stage. Perhaps Ms Sugden would like to ask the Chair of the Committee how speedily he will progress that. It is clear that we need to move to a portable check as soon as possible, although it may not be available until some time during the next calendar year because of the issues that need to be addressed to tie the system to the available resources.”
“The PSNI has approved additional resources for that work, but it will take time to effect the necessary improvements and reduce the current backlog.”
“Access NI issues all applications for standard and basic checks within three to five days, and over 70% of enhanced applications are issued in six to eight days. Given that 125,000 applications are made to Access NI each year, I believe that that is a good indicator of efficiency. That said, some cases take longer. Those are cases that are referred to the police for consideration. The vast bulk of those are also turned around efficiently, but I acknowledge, as does the PSNI, that delays are occurring and that they can be significant at times. <BR /> <BR />Mindful of the impact on applicants who are unable to secure positions of employment without an Access NI check, my officials are working closely with the PSNI to reduce the delays being experienced by a small minority of applicants.”
“I am not sure whether Mr Allister has any specific points that he wishes to make to suggest that the Policing Board is not carrying out its statutory duties. I am concerned to see the Department and the board working together as effectively as possible, recognising the distinct responsibilities that the two agencies have. After the court cases in England, the important point is to get the situation back on track to ensure that injured officers' needs are met.”
“I appreciate Mrs Cameron's point, but it is, in fact, an issue on which work is to be done between my Department and the Policing Board. The specific responsibilities for administering the scheme lie with the board. My Department merely has the role of looking at guidance, and that has been issued. I am happy to continue to work with the Policing Board on how that guidance is implemented and to ensure that we get the regulations right. I certainly hope that that will happen within the next few weeks. <BR /> <BR />The key issues are to ensure that the Department and the board each play their part appropriately and that we get a better system than was the case in recent times. That will allow us to deal with the very significant numbers of PSNI officers who have made IOD claims.”
“Following the Scoffield report, my Department agreed to review the policy and regulations underpinning the police injury on duty scheme. That work is well advanced, and it is hoped that draft regulations will be published for consultation this spring. The Department also agreed to provide guidance on reassessments that was issued to the Policing Board on 19 December last.”
“I thank my colleague for that question. There is clearly a polarised view in the Assembly on the issue of the minimum age of criminal responsibility. The youth justice review recommended that it should be increased from 10 to 12 and potentially to 14. I certainly believe that there is justification for increasing the minimum age of criminal responsibility to 12, given that the tiny number — generally a couple of dozen in any year — of 10- and 11-year-olds who become involved with the justice system are, almost overwhelmingly, dealt with by a care process rather than a criminal sanction. There are real dangers if we get young people involved in that part of the criminal justice system at such an early age. Clearly, the important issue has to be to divert young people from a path of crime, on whatever basis it operates.”
“I appreciate the question. As I said, the key issue is early intervention and engagement to ensure that people are presented with the options, including, in some cases, a restorative option or additional support, to ensure that, at the engagement clinic, young people get the chance to hear about the disposals likely to be directed by the PPS and the options that are then open to them so that they can seek a better way forward. In the 700 cases so far, something like 98% of the young people involved have accepted a diversionary disposal that removes them from the formal system and, if they are a first offender, gives them, in effect, a second chance and an opportunity to make amends, understand the consequences of their action and be supported away from the potential for engagement in criminal activity on a more intense basis.”
“The scheme has processed approximately 700 referrals to date.”
“To achieve that, my Department provides a range of support and funding aimed at diversion through, for example, the funding of policing and community safety partnerships including the Priority Youth intervention programme and the asset recovery community scheme. <BR /> <BR />My Department has also established a system of youth engagement clinics to assist in the identification of and early intervention in cases that are deemed suitable for diversion from the court system. Efficient application of the youth engagement process speeds up case processing and gives the fullest consideration to diversionary processes. The early intervention scheme brings together the Public Prosecution Service (PPS), the police and the Youth Justice Agency with the young person and their family so that joint and informed decisions can be made.”
“Primary intervention and prevention is best achieved through ready access to a comprehensive range of universal entitlements, such as education, health and social services. In the justice system, the term "early intervention" refers to targeted services for children and young people who are assessed as being at high risk of first-time offending or who already display early signs of criminal or antisocial behaviour. <BR /> <BR />The principal aim is to keep those children and young people out of the formal justice system where appropriate, with many of them needing little assistance to grow out of that behaviour. Research shows that overall life outcomes for such children are improved if their involvement with the justice system is limited at that early stage.”
“I am happy to agree with Mr Campbell's point. Anybody who has any information about any crime should report it. Sexual abuse can, at times, be a hugely complex issue, whether it involves family relationships or allegations about a particular organisation. There are ways in which people can come forward, receive help and assist in prosecutions, whether they contact the police or social services or go through other agencies. The important point to make is that information should be passed on so that victims can be supported and action taken against the perpetrators.”
“I believe that that is being done properly in both jurisdictions at present, and Frances Fitzgerald and I are committed to ensuring that that remains the case.”
“I appreciate Mrs Kelly's point. I am not sure that I am in the business of sharing information. It is my job to ensure that the justice system is properly funded and properly run. I have certainly encouraged and understand that there has been sharing of information both ways between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. There is work being done on a general cross-border basis, some of which falls under the general heading of the intergovernmental agreement on criminal justice cooperation. There is work being shared on support for victims and work being done on specific criminal investigations. All of that is being done to see that we do our best to, first of all, find out the facts, then see whether prosecutions are appropriate and, in parallel, support the victims of whatever abuse may have occurred.”
“At this stage, the important thing is to allow the relevant agencies to conduct their work and then, after ensuring that there is no interference with the justice system, see that an appropriate way of examining matters further is looked at, whether that is a specific inquiry in Northern Ireland, a related cross-border inquiry or whatever. We are open to see what is appropriate at that stage, but, at this stage, we have to allow the work of the ombudsman, the Garda Síochána, the PSNI and the DPP to be carried through.”
“Mr McCrea may make a point about trial by media, but I do not control the BBC or many another thing. There are a number of issues in the cases highlighted by Maíria Cahill and others that require individual agencies of the justice system in Northern Ireland and individual agencies of the justice system in the Republic to conduct their inquiries, do their work and carry out their investigations to see whether there are opportunities for prosecution. <BR /> <BR />I have discussed the issue on a number of occasions, most recently in the last week of February, with my colleague Frances Fitzgerald, the Minister for Justice and Equality. We have looked at the options for wider reviews, but setting up a cross-border review, as has been suggested by some people, would be a very complex issue.”
“I am advised that a complaint has been received by the Police Ombudsman’s office and the matter is currently under investigation. The Public Prosecution Service is entirely independent of my Department; however, the Director of Public Prosecutions has commissioned Sir Keir Starmer to conduct a review of the prosecution of three interlinked cases involving sexual abuse and terrorist-related charges. I have asked for early warnings of Sir Keir’s review of any issues that would impact on the support provided to victims across the justice system.”
“He asks what the implications are. There are no suggestions from the evidence that I have seen that, by reducing some elements of scope where money is in play, or by avoiding some people using legal aid as a battering ram against an ex-partner who is ineligible for legal aid over family cases, we will vastly increase the number of litigants in person. The question is to ensure that there is basic funding for key hearings, but, where family cases are at play, people should not be allowed to abuse the legal aid system to punish an ex-partner over minor trifles like variations in the time of access.”
“As ever, Mr Allister starts arguing from a false premise. I am no more on a crusade against lawyers paid from legal aid than I am on a crusade against prison officers, police officers, probation officers, those who work in the courts and youth justice and those in every other spending area of the justice system that has had to be cut because of the Budget cuts imposed on my Department. When Mr Allister uses words like "crusade", he is simply not recognising the reality of the budget that I am faced with.”
“The rates that are set for the employment of solicitors and barristers do not fall less, on an hourly basis, than the national minimum wage. What is clear is that there are so many barristers in Northern Ireland relative to other jurisdictions that they cannot all receive a living from the legal aid fund alone, given the fact that there are those in more senior practice who earn very substantial sums from the legal aid budget. It is not my job to distribute the fees; it is a matter for the Bar as to how it regulates its profession and it is about how cases are allocated. That is not my responsibility. Those who do the work are paid the fee for the work that they do.”
“I have an absolutely precise figure for those who are working below the national minimum wage. For the benefit of Mr Cree and anybody else who did not hear it, there are no barristers working for below the national minimum wage. There may be barristers who do not have enough cases to obtain enough fees to equate to an annual salary that would be the equivalent of the national minimum wage, but for the employment that they are engaged in and paid for from the legal aid fund, none of them are receiving less than the hourly rate of the national minimum wage.”
“The levy was very much on a par with the existing arrangements, which allowed for reductions in payments on those cases that were assessed by the Taxing Master. Since the proposal was put forward initially, there has been a specific decision of the Supreme Court relating to a case involving the Welsh Assembly Government, which has raised questions about the viability of such a proposal. I am closely examining the implications of that with my officials.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the context of the cuts that are being imposed on my budget, it is simply not possible to say that it will be easy to manage without making further cuts to the legal aid budget as we also cut the budgets of every other spending area across the justice system.”
“No, the Minister does not have to accept that. It is not the case that people are working for below the minimum wage. It is clearly the case that there are many more barristers per head of population in Northern Ireland than in neighbouring jurisdictions and it is clear that not all of them can obtain full-time work. That is not my fault; that is the reality of a profession that is operating on a competitive basis as, indeed, happens in other professions and businesses. My job is to ensure that there is access to justice for those who need justice; it is not the role of the DOJ to provide an employment service for solicitors or barristers.”