David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“In that respect, Mr Poots suggested that the Kingsmills families were still waiting for documents from the Republic of Ireland. My understanding is that the first batch of information was supplied by the Irish authorities to the coroner last week. Therefore, a degree of progress is now being made in that respect. No doubt, Mr Poots would say that it is rather late — better late than never. <BR /> <BR />The Stormont House Agreement recognises that we need to look at how the legacy inquest function is conducted to comply with article 2 of ECHR. In conjunction with the Chief Justice, my Department is taking steps to do so. Improvements are being progressed to enhance the way in which legacy inquests are conducted.”
“I believe that the new bodies that will come out of the Stormont House Agreement represent a real and genuine opportunity to deliver information, justice and support services to victims and survivors. We all know that it will not be possible to get justice for all. At the very least, we should be able to ensure that we get as much information as possible and that the necessary support services are provided. Inevitably, the passage of time will mean that it will be difficult in many cases to give victims all that they want, but we owe to them to provide that resolution as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />The inquest system also has a crucial role to play in dealing with the past. We recognise the huge challenges that are faced by coroners.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am clear that solutions must be built on cooperation and partnership with all the relevant interests. That applies today, and it applies as we look at the past. My Department will consult on the key aspects of the Stormont House Agreement that fall to the justice system as soon as possible in advance of the legislation being laid. That commitment to engage is reflected in the ongoing engagement and dialogue that my officials have already had with key stakeholders, the victims' forum, a variety of victims groups, the voluntary sector and academic interests. That is very much in keeping with the spirit of the Stormont House Agreement and the importance that it gives to a victim-centred approach.”
“It will be vital to ensure that that independence is maintained and it is seen to fully deliver on article 2 investigations. Work has already begun in preparation for the recruitment of a director designate for the HIU to ensure that the director is fully involved in key decisions on the operational workings of it. The justice system is committed to learning from both the best and the worst of our previous attempts to deal with these issues. We must learn from the mistakes of our past. We must also move forward in a positive, transparent, just and human rights-compliant manner. When Gerry Kelly said that that impunity still exists today, I believe that he was fundamentally wrong and that it is not a recognition of reality as applies in the justice sphere in 2015.”
“Otherwise, we are condemned to an endless cycle of "whataboutery". Whilst some Members of the House may be content with that, I, as Minister of Justice, am not content. I am committed to implementing the elements of the agreement that fall to my Department as quickly as possible. Given the urgency of establishing the new institutions, I look forward to seeing that carried forward through a Westminster Bill this autumn. Otherwise, there is a danger that the past will continue to create huge difficulties for the justice system of the present. <BR /> <BR />It is important to emphasise the necessity of creating systems that are fully compliant with article 2 of the ECHR. The historical investigations unit is being set up as just such an independent organisation.”
“They require us to question how justice was dispensed in the past, but they are tethered to the past and have to be seen in the context of the huge and very significant changes that have happened in Northern Ireland since those times, changes involving, of course, the devolution of policing and justice powers to the Assembly, significant progress in ensuring greater accountability of the police and significant progress in building confidence in the Police Service right across the community. <BR /> <BR />The past has been an area where the justice system could go only so far without a wider political solution. That has to be what now comes from the Stormont House Agreement, which is the best vehicle to take forward a thorough and independent investigation of matters falling to it under the agreement.”
“When the Chief Constable said that, he meant all those who operated outside the law, and I entirely agree with him that those crimes must be investigated. However, the practices described in the 'Panorama' programme in particular occurred at a time when there was no regulatory framework governing the handling of intelligence sources. Since the PSNI policy on covert human intelligence sources became governed by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, it is now fully compliant with human rights legislation and in a very different place. <BR /> <BR />It is the case that such programmes make us stop and think.”
“Resolution involves treating all deaths as worthy of investigation, and all victims have rights to information and justice where that is possible. The claims that were detailed in those programmes are very serious, and complaints relating to several of the incidents are already under investigation by the Police Ombudsman. It would therefore not be proper to detail anything to do with that or for me to comment on them at this point, but, when those reports are completed, I will give the ombudsman's considerations very careful consideration on my part in the Department of Justice. <BR /> <BR />The Chief Constable, George Hamilton, recently stated clearly that:”
“They involved people from terrorist groups of different backgrounds. For either side of the Chamber to suggest that it was only the other side would be entirely incorrect. A focus on collusion does absolutely nothing to recognise what the reality was and does a significant disservice to those who sought to uphold the law when they were given responsibility, whether they were in the RUC or the army, the Garda Síochána or the Irish armed forces or were civilians throughout these islands. Yes, there was collusion, but let us not suggest that the majority of deaths arose because of that. <BR /> <BR />Those deaths cannot be brushed aside and ignored. We need to ensure that we investigate, we need to resolve those issues and we need to acknowledge the role that the institutions, including my Department, have today.”
“The way in which the motion was proposed, and the fact that the proposer refused to take a single intervention, shows something of the confidence she had in the speech she was making. To listen to her speech, you really would think that the majority of deaths in the Troubles were caused by the RUC and not by terrorists from different backgrounds. <BR /> <BR />The events outlined in the two programmes we have seen so far occurred a considerable time ago, in the decades long before the establishment of a devolved Department of Justice. Thankfully, they in no way reflect the current nature of policing in Northern Ireland. Clearly, in the past, there were examples of collusion. They involved state actors from both North and South.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was going to start by saying that I agree with the wording of the motion, although, like Alban Maginness, I find myself in total disagreement with the way in which it was proposed. I also have no problem with the wording of the amendment, which creates a slightly more balanced approach. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that the recent 'Panorama' and 'Spotlight' programmes, and indeed the prime-time programme tonight, provide further poignant reminders of the toxic effect that the past continues to have on our society and of the pressing need to deal, effectively and comprehensively, with the legacy of our troubled past. I trust that, once we get the heat out of this type of debate, it will be possible to start to look at some of the ways in which we can do that.”
“I would be in serious danger of pre-empting a debate that we are due to have in the House shortly if I went too far into that detail. There is no doubt that the revelations in 'Panorama', the subsequent local programme and, potentially, 'Prime Time' will cause people to have concerns about the behaviour of a number of organisations in the past. They should not have any effect on confidence in policing today, because we see a very different police service, which is fully accountable to the Policing Board, of which Ms Ruane is a member, has the highest human rights standards and is operating in a way and in a very different place from the circumstances that applied in the 1970s and 1980s.”
“No, I do not, for the very simple reason that he was not in post when those issues first came up and was not the person taking the decisions. Rather than calling for resignations, it is far more important to ensure that organisations learn lessons from reports such as this.”
“It is not entirely for me to give an assessment of the Keir Starmer report; it is an issue for the Director of Public Prosecutions to follow through. I welcome the fact that he has accepted the report in full. I welcome the fact that he has apologised to the victims and I welcome that he is clearly putting actions in train in the Public Prosecution Service to make those necessary changes. I had a brief discussion with the DPP before the report was published and I had a subsequent discussion with him last week. I have no doubt that he is taking the report seriously and ensuring that the Public Prosecution Service learns from it.”
“Yes, they most certainly need to be tackled. When we are talking about gangs that are operating from other jurisdictions, as Mr McAleer highlighted, and targeting young people in these islands, it is very difficult to ensure that they are tackled easily. However, there are wider issues. Given the specialist nature of the matter, there is limited expertise in Northern Ireland. We at least now benefit from the input of the National Crime Agency in helping us to fight these criminals.”
“Given that tragic death, we should certainly be concerned about the issue. A lot of work has been done on Internet-related issues, although, because of the telecommunications aspect, they are principally reserved matters. Good work has been done involving the Police Service, and a lot of educational work is being done through a variety of organisations. I certainly trust that that tragic death will, as Ronan's parents have made it, become an issue that can be used to ensure that young people are made aware of the dangers of the Internet and are protected from those who would harm them on it.”
“I am slightly perturbed by the phrase "his decision", because the Member appears to refer to a decision of mine. The only decision that I have taken about the provision of resources for neighbourhood policing in Banbridge, Craigavon or anywhere else in Northern Ireland has been to protect the budget of the Police Service as much as I can by making cuts of only 5·7% in the policing budget this year against the 22% cuts being made in the core Department of Justice. I have not taken any decision that has made those matters worse, but there is no doubt, as I said earlier and will doubtless say on future occasions, that the difficult financial situation makes it difficult for a range of public agencies to provide the service that the public are used to.”
“I have two difficulties in responding to that, the first of which is the fundamental one: this is an issue for the Chief Constable, the Policing Board and the new PCSP that will shortly be established in the Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon (ABC) council. That will be the appropriate place to discuss those issues rather than from my part as Minister, because I suspect that, if I engaged in too much of that conversation, I would be seen by the Chief Constable and others to be interfering in his responsibilities and those of the Policing Board, and I would not wish to come across members of the Policing Board, especially those in the House.”
“I certainly will. Probably one of the best opportunities that we have is the use of the education other than at school scheme, which, potentially, would allow Woodlands to be recognised as an education provider. That would mean that, for example, staff there would have access to professional training courses, which they do not currently because they are not employed in an appropriate place, but I will keep the House in general and Mr Douglas in particular informed.”
“Mr Douglas raises an entirely valid point. Very similar work is going on at Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre. A few weeks ago, I met the Education Minister, John O'Dowd, at Woodlands, and we looked at how we can improve the quality of teaching provided there. There is no doubt that there are difficulties for the Youth Justice Agency in employing teachers, specifically the external services that they are unable to access because they are not teachers in a recognised institution. Officials from the two Departments have been looking at that. I do not yet have a conclusion, but I hope that we will see something fairly speedily.”
“People should be aware that the risk to older people in this society is very low, but there is no doubt that the fear of crime amongst older people remains at a fairly high level.”
“I accept that a number of older people feel vulnerable, even though the statistic is that 2% of violent crime is directed against older people, who constitute 16% of the population, but there is no doubt that there are fears of issues like domestic burglary. That is why a lot of work has been done, principally under the auspices of policing and community safety partnerships (PCSPs) across Northern Ireland, to provide various security aids. I visited some of those schemes in a number of different areas. Good work is being done, and I am keen to encourage that, including using the proceeds of criminal assets to help to fight crime. Where appropriate, local organisations can assist in installing and providing the kind of equipment that can help to provide reassurance.”
“It is not possible to give the figures at that level of detail, given that the funding is delivered through some of our voluntary sector partners that deal with this issue, particularly Victim Support and the NSPCC. Therefore, I cannot say how we could possibly break that down. It would be a requirement to find it from the voluntary groups. I am not sure that it would be a terribly good use of their resources to chase up that level of detail rather than asking them to provide the services.”
“Sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have just told Mr Anderson that costs are going down, and now he has asked me to agree with him that the high costs mean that there is a problem. I will accept his logic entirely and accept that the Prison Service is getting better.”
“I was aware that Mr Anderson was aware of this, given the way he ran to the press to talk about what he described as a fairly excessive budget spend on the issue. Sadly, he did not check up on the facts in the first place. Compare, for example, the maintenance spend at Maghaberry with that in modern Scottish prisons: we find that, in 2014-15, Maghaberry spent £22·50 per square metre on general property maintenance, and the Scottish prison spent £28 per square metre. Indeed, since devolution, we have seen the overall cost of maintenance at Maghaberry reduced by over 38%. Perhaps Mr Anderson might like to ask his colleague the MP for Upper Bann to ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what went wrong before devolution.”
“I am not sure what the proposed use of a legal defender service is. It is an issue that is potentially available in our legislative provision. I have sought all along to ensure that we maintain the existing system that allows individuals to choose their legal team from those who work in private practice, and that is the current position.”
“I hope that those who have currently said that they are withdrawing their services will reconsider the issue, especially when it comes at a time when the two professional bodies are judicially reviewing the decision that I took.”
“The answer, at this stage, is that there has been a very limited impact from the withdrawal of legal aid services. The current period of withdrawal only commenced at the beginning of May, and therefore relatively few cases have been affected. I know of one case where an individual who was not represented in court succeeded in achieving bail on her own account by being invited by the judge hearing the application for bail to make her own representations, so it certainly did not have any effect on her. The number of cases being affected is relatively limited and will not kick on until the autumn term, when we will see.”
“There are two specific issues there. On the first question, to ensure that there are appropriate staffing ratios, a certain amount of overtime has been worked. There are also issues such as, at times, managing controlled lockdowns, which would not otherwise have been anticipated, to ensure safety for staff and prisoners. It is the job of managers in each part of the prison, in conjunction with their colleagues in HR, to ensure that the general issue of sickness absence is addressed. Indeed, as Members are well aware, that issue applies right across the Northern Ireland Civil Service.”
“There is a range of ways in which staff morale is kept under review, including mechanisms that facilitate staff engagement with senior management. That is done at a local level through full staff briefings and as part of the front-line forum meetings. The director general and the director of HR visit each prison specifically for front-line forum meetings, which bring together a cross section of staff. In addition, there are regular visits to the prisons by the leadership team.”
“I met the Prison Officers' Association (POA) chair and a number of his colleagues in December 2014 to discuss a range of issues, including staffing levels and staff safety. Officials in the Prison Service continue to meet staff representatives through the formal Whitley structures and informally engage with trade unions and staff via a range of communication and engagement strategies. The Northern Ireland Prison Service keeps staffing levels under review, and a re-profiling exercise to look comprehensively at operational staffing levels across the service is nearing completion. As part of that exercise, there is an agreed process to consult with representatives of the POA prior to the introduction of the new profiles.”
“Regardless of whether there is a difficulty in getting agreement in the area, the question that I was asked was about upholding Parades Commission determinations, and that was the point that I made absolutely clear. Matters might be easier in the Ardoyne/Twaddell area if those in the different factions and elements on both sides of that dispute were to engage constructively, but the fundamental issue is that people should uphold the law, especially those who belong to organisations that claim to be committed to upholding the law and the constitutional arrangements.”
“I certainly agree with the tenor of Mr Maginness's comments. I am not sure that it should require a visit by a member of the royal family for people in this society to respect places of worship, but the very fact that he visited it should surely encapsulate the historic nature of the church and the specific issues. I have attended services there on two or three occasions related to different aspects of the justice system, including, most recently, for Prisons Week last November, and I believe that any place of worship that is providing a service to the community, as well as pastoral care and concern for its parish or congregation, should be respected by everybody in this society. In particular, recent determinations of the Parades Commission regarding respect for that place of worship should be upheld.”
“I cannot give Mr Ó Muilleoir the full statistics for policing flags protests. It was certainly the case, not that long ago, that it was costing close to £1 million per month to police 10 metres at the top of Twaddell Avenue every evening. As there has been some reduction in resources, it is now running at something less than that: I believe it is in the region of a third of £1 million per month. All of that is money that is either being spent in additional overtime, which creates pressure on police officers and the police budget, or it is a cost caused by officers being redeployed from other duties, including the basic everyday crime-fighting and public reassurance that Members frequently tell me they wish to see in their constituencies. It may only be an opportunity cost, but it is a significant cost nonetheless.”
“Yes, I certainly agree with my colleague. The reality is that the Parades Commission is the body established by Parliament to deal with issues of parades and protests. The parties in the Assembly have been unable to agree any appropriate replacement for the Parades Commission, and therefore the Parades Commission remains the body established by law to take the difficult decisions that we have been unable to take on, for institutions established by the Assembly. I therefore believe it is incumbent upon every MLA, as it is upon every citizen, to uphold the determinations of the Parades Commission; to accept them, whether or not they like them; and to live within them, to ensure that we can have a peaceful society and a peaceful summer marching season.”
“I hope that wise heads will prevail this year, that true leadership will be shown, and that we all see a peaceful summer.”
“I have regular discussions with the Chief Constable about a range of issues, including parading and protests and their implications. I met the Chief Constable and his senior colleagues last month and plan to review the situation with him again before the 12 July parades. I recognise and welcome the fact that the vast majority of parades in Northern Ireland pass off without any difficulty. I recognise the rights of those who seek to parade within the law, and of those who wish to protest peacefully, but there is no cause, dispute or disagreement that justifies the use of violence or public disorder. Those who are involved in such behaviour need to recognise and understand the potential consequences of their behaviour, including through the courts.”
“While Mrs Kelly makes some valid points about how issues are treated, and particularly about how we support victims of a variety of offences and those who would carry out activities that threaten people in general, we need to be slightly cautious about giving specific commitments on that. I am certainly happy to discuss the issue more widely with her, because there are issues that need to be discussed. They are, frankly, issues about the behaviour of paramilitaries, which have rather hit the headlines in recent weeks and months. There is a wider issue to address, and I am quite happy to have a discussion that is a bit longer than just giving a quick, snap answer now.”
“I do not have any suggestion that there are specific problems around the issue of resources for these particular programmes. What is absolutely clear is that there are resource issues for the justice system as a whole, and, in the Department, we seek to manage resources across different programmes within different agencies as best we can, given the problems that we are falling under. Frankly, as long as the House fails to take a realistic attitude to some of the difficult decisions that need to be taken over funding generally, Ministers will continue to answer questions about difficulties with particular programmes.”
“I stick to the general position on virtually every offence. The reason why we have judges producing sentencing decisions after court hearings at whatever level of court they take place is so that all the relevant factors can be taken into account. On that basis, legislating for minimum sentences can be an incredibly blunt instrument that does not actually meet the needs of providing a safer society and protecting our people. On that basis, I am not in support of mandatory minimum sentences.”
“I appreciate the point that Mrs Cameron makes. Sadly, it seems to be the case that, for virtually every question I answer these days, I point out the realities of the financial circumstances that we live in. Despite those difficulties, I certainly believe that the Probation Board, which has the specific responsibility in this area, is doing its best in the financial circumstances to manage programmes such as IDAP and, indeed, to look at the potential transformation across. Whilst there are undoubtedly challenges because of the budget reductions, I believe that there is also a lot of very good work being done by professionals right across the justice system that we ought to support, while recognising the pressures that this sometimes places on individual members of staff.”
“I understand that a full evaluation of the IDAP programme by the Probation Board is under way, and I look forward to receiving the report. <BR /> <BR />I am aware that in England the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) has replaced IDAP with the new accredited programme, Building Better Relationships. To achieve accreditation, programmes must be evidence-based to ensure that they are targeting the right people, focusing on the right things and being delivered in a way that is most likely to reduce reoffending. All NOMS-accredited programmes are monitored to ensure programme integrity. I understand that the Probation Board is committed to delivering accredited programmes and, as a result, plans to follow the same approach.”
“It is important to offer appropriate interventions aimed at changing the behaviour of those committing domestic abuse. The integrated domestic abuse programme (IDAP) ensures a consistent approach in providing interventions for perpetrators of domestic violence. IDAP has been delivered by the Probation Board since 2009. The primary aims of the programme are to identify, challenge and change men’s abusive behaviour. IDAP is currently delivered at five sites: Armagh, Ballymena, Belfast, Derry and Omagh. <BR /> <BR />In providing the programme, the Probation Board works in close collaboration with the Police Service, social services and Women’s Aid to manage risk constructively. Importantly, the programme also offers safety and support services to victims through women's safety services provided by Women's Aid.”
“I am not sure that there is necessarily a great issue about reporting or, as Mr Elliott in essence suggested, of the reporting getting worse. It is no doubt the case that some criminal offences have historically gone significantly under-reported, domestic violence being the most obvious example. In recent years, hate crimes have clearly been under-reported, which is why we have been seeking to encourage increased reporting to ensure that they are addressed appropriately. However, as far as the generality of crimes is concerned, I am not sure that there is any greater under-reporting now than was the case a few years ago.”
“Mr Lynch correctly highlights the point that reducing reoffending is not an issue that can be handled by my Department alone. As I pointed out, housing, health and social care and employment and training are all key issues. We seek to work in partnership with other Departments, as, for example, we have done with DEL and the two colleges over the issue of job skills training and routes into further employment. That requires a joined-up approach, and that is an issue on which the Department is seeking to work alongside other Departments that have direct responsibility for providing those services.”
“It is probably safe to say that, on virtually every occasion that a Minister produces the possibility of further offences being created, the appropriate sentences for the new offences are a consideration for my Department, in order to ensure that matters are kept in balance between offences of a broadly similar nature. There is ongoing work in the Department to keep an eye on that and to review those kinds of issues as they relate to other jurisdictions, particularly those within these islands, to ensure that there is broad comparability. I stress the words "broad comparability", not necessarily absolute equivalence.”
“Mr McGlone highlights yet another effect of the difficult financial circumstances that we are in. There is no doubt that the cutbacks in grant funding have a detrimental effect on the services provided by some of our NGO partners, with NIACRO and Extern being two of the key ones in the rehabilitation of offenders. That comes after four years in which grants to the voluntary sector were, by and large, protected and in circumstances in which the most significant cuts from this point, as I frequently say, will be made to the core of the Department. Nonetheless, it has not been possible this year to continue to fund at the level that we were funding at last year. Of course, that was also complicated by the issue of European social funding, with NIACRO not being successful in its bid for its ongoing work.”
“Some of the practical issues are showing positive results, even at this early stage.”
“Yes, it is a significant new model. In a sense, it is similar to the work that is being done around healthcare, where the expectation is being delivered that healthcare is better provided by the South Eastern Trust, a specialist health and social care provider, than by the Prison Service in-house. On exactly the same basis, the new contract, which will result in the creation of 33 new jobs to provide learning and skills opportunities with the two colleges in the three prisons, is a key way of building on the skills that exist in FE colleges and putting them to the best use of those who are in the care and custody of the Prison Service. A range of issues is being covered, including academic and vocational training, from numeracy and literacy essential skills through to degree-level work. Those are now being done in the prisons.”
“The opening of the Burren House facility has also provided a low-security pre-release facility to test the capacity to work in the community and engage with employment or learning opportunities. <BR /> <BR />My Department is also thinking innovatively about the best ways to support offenders in gaining future employment. In recent weeks, we have seen the creation of an in-house cafe in Hydebank and the establishment of a social enterprise to employ young parents who have offended. <BR /> <BR />That is just a flavour of the significant work that my Department has been undertaking to reduce offending and to protect the public. However, I recognise that more can still be done, and my Department will continue to explore innovative and effective ways of reducing offending and making Northern Ireland safer.”