David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“I thank Mr Kennedy for his question. I can certainly join him in hoping that the matter will be resolved speedily. I am aware that, in the case of the Kingsmills inquest, a preliminary hearing has recently been held and a further one is due to be held before Christmas time. If matters can be arranged at that preliminary hearing, the intention is to proceed to a full hearing during the first half of 2016. It is interesting that it is one of the cases now being looked after by Judge Sherrard, one of the higher court tier judges who has been moved across to assist the Coroners Service. That is an example of the resources being put in by DOJ that are currently unfunded but that, I hope, will produce results for the families concerned.”
“Mr Ó hOisín's point has a number of factors to it. There are certainly problems at the moment with resourcing the Coroners Service. Another issue is that a number of legacy inquests involve matters that require clarification from the police or the Ministry of Defence, particularly where national security issues are engaged. I am determined to put the maximum possible resources into the Coroners Service. Good work has been done in that area by strengthening the complement of coroners, by assigning judges from higher court tiers to deal with coroners' cases. Until we resolve the fundamental issue of the necessary resourcing, however, we will not have all being done as fast as we would wish.”
“The failure of the latest political agreement to come to a position on legacy mechanisms and to provide significant additional resources makes progress on legacy inquests more difficult. I very much appreciate the disappointment that that will cause victims. <BR /> <BR />My objective is to deliver as much as I can for families. Consequently, I have agreed to the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service launching a recruitment scheme with a view to appointing investigative support for the Coroners Service. The scheme was launched yesterday, and I expect appointments to be made by spring of next year. The cost of appointing such investigators will result in a further unfunded legacy pressure on my Department.”
“We all have a role in developing meaningful engagement to ensure greater collaboration between the wider justice agencies and the business community. In the presence of the Chair, I thank the Committee for its work on this issue and for its positive engagement generally. I am sure that Committee members will wish to join me in assuring the public that we will all play our part in continuing to work together to tackle business crime. I am happy to give the Committee and the House the assurances that they have requested that my Department will continue to work with the PSNI to address the issues highlighted in the report in a comprehensive and speedy manner.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the short term, I hope that the proposed workshop will provide a platform to have an open and constructive discussion on future prioritisation of resources, building on the work that has been taken forward to date. There is no doubt that, at a time of limited resources, we need to ensure that they are well used. The arrangements for the workshop are being developed and will be communicated further in the coming weeks. In tandem with the workshop, the OCTF is reviewing its overarching strategy document and will shortly commence work on the community safety strategy beyond 2017. This report will undoubtedly help in that. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, as I have mentioned already, partnership working is key to success.”
“I have asked my officials to discuss through the workshop what the business community expects from a dedicated strategy. Many of the themes addressed in the community safety strategy are interrelated, and it may be considered a more strategic response to have a single framework to pull them all together, as the community safety strategy currently does. That is what we will be seeking to tease out through that further engagement. <BR /> <BR />I understand that the Committee has already been advised that Assistant Chief Constable Chris Noble has been appointed lead PSNI officer for business crime and that the PSNI is taking forward work on an agreed definition of "business crime".”
“I note, for example, references to good work being done with Retailers Against Crime, as well as Mr Frew's inevitable ability to make it very localised by talking about BRAC. Good work is being done in more than just Ballymena. My officials have met representatives from the PSNI and the Policing Board to discuss how best to deal with those specific actions in a comprehensive and efficient manner. It has been agreed that my Department will convene a workshop with the business community to explore the issues raised in the report, with a specific focus being placed on the need for a dedicated business crime strategy or plan for Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />As Members will know, the business community's interests are already represented at a strategic level in the community safety strategy and through the OCTF's work.”
“<BR /> <BR />When the Committee wrote to the Chief Constable and me, it asked for a response on three specific actions: first, the development of a business crime strategy or plan; secondly, improved strategic partnership working through either a partnership forum or a dedicated assistant chief constable for business crime; and, thirdly, the adoption and use of an agreed definition of "business crime" to provide for improved and consistent data collection and analysis of scale and impact. <BR /> <BR />As was noted in my response to the Chair of the Committee, given my Department's commitment to partnership working, I said that, in the first instance, I will provide partners on our respective delivery groups with an opportunity to consider the Committee report. That consultation is ongoing.”
“That will ensure that there is a proper reporting of criminal activity and a proper balance struck to ensure that resources are allocated appropriately. <BR /> <BR />On the specific licensing and fraud issue that Mr Douglas highlighted, there is no doubt that those kinds of breaches of rules do major damage to legitimate businesses, and it is not just alcohol issues, as he highlighted, but things such as transport companies — coach hire, and so on — which I had a discussion on last week. There is an issue with ensuring that legitimate businesses are not damaged by a bending of the rules.”
“A number of distinct themes merit attention: confidence in policing and the justice system; a strategic partnership approach to tackling the issues; the evidence of organised criminal activity; rural crime; cybercrime and fraud, especially some specific issues around licensing; and the role of PCSPs in tackling local business crime. <BR /> <BR />Let me highlight two of them in particular. A number of Members talked about having confidence in the system and there is absolutely no doubt that people need to have confidence to report all crimes. However, if resources are to be allocated to where those crimes are, it is important that people be encouraged to report them, whether or not they think that anything will happen in the immediate circumstances.”
“<BR /> <BR />Although there have been references made to increasing crime, and I also note the references made to sentencing policy, the good news is that the new fuel marker introduced in the spring of this year appears to be leading to a very significant reduction in fuel fraud, but we will need to consider the full statistics over a longer period to see exactly how that comes through. Another group is the criminal finance group, which is looking at issues such as credit card fraud and money laundering, which, again, impact on all businesses. <BR /> <BR />I will now look at the themes that emerged from the Justice Committee's stakeholder event.”
“There is no doubt that cybercrime is being taken more seriously. As we look to the future, and as I have said here before, the fact is that anything that can be done by way of criminal activity can now be done in cyberspace as well. <BR /> <BR />Cybercrime is a key focus for the OCTF, but there are other, more traditional activities that are also a key focus. The intellectual property crime group is addressing issues such as counterfeiting and that form of fraud. The armed robbery group is considering strategies to stop violent thefts directed at businesses. Fuel fraud got a mention from Mr Kennedy in particular. The OCTF's fuel fraud group deals with an issue that, in addition to the loss of government revenue, negatively impacts on legitimate fuel retailers and the rural environment.”
“<BR /> <BR />I would like to highlight some of the work that is being done. Cybercrime, as Mr Ross said in the opening contribution, is a major and growing problem for all sectors. The OCTF now has an enforcement group and an industry engagement group looking at the issue, and the PSNI has been working with local businesses on protection against cybercrime, both to stop it happening in the first place and to best deal with it when it occurs. Among other initiatives, the PSNI now has a cyber reporting portal for non-emergency incidents, which is another means of assisting reporting.”
“When Members talk about increases, they need to ensure that reporting is carried through accurately. <BR /> <BR />Another issue is livestock crime, and it was Mr Dickson who highlighted the public health issues that arise when meat enters the food chain improperly and illegally. That is a significant potential threat, and the theft of livestock can have the same devastating effect on farm families as the theft of machinery. <BR /> <BR />The Organised Crime Task Force has existed for a number of years and has a wider role. It is a multi-agency partnership aimed at tackling organised crime in Northern Ireland, and it has subgroups relevant to business and rural crime. I think that Mr Kennedy referred to the National Crime Agency: it has been part of the OCTF since it became operational in Northern Ireland.”
“I am happy to accept that intervention, and I am sure that members of the Committee will be pleased to know that they have such an effect on the Policing Board, as well as on the Department. <BR /> <BR />One point that came through from Ms McGahan's contribution was on reporting, which also featured in other comments. There is no doubt that, if crime is not reported, the resources to fight it are not put in place. She also talked about increasing crime rates. The reality is that, according to the figures for crimes that have been reported — I put in that caveat earlier — burglary, robbery and theft directed against agricultural interests have been on a downward trend, resulting in a reduction of one third in reported crimes since 2010-11. That is a significant decrease.”
“It is important to ensure that rural crimes are correctly defined. Not that long ago, any crime that happened in the PSNI's former urban region was categorised as urban, even if it occurred in a rural area, and crimes that occurred in major towns in the rural region were categorised as rural. We are a lot sharper on those statistics now, which enables us to look at the way forward.”
“My Department is also in the process of developing and funding a pilot forensic marking scheme in conjunction with the Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon PCSP to deter the theft of farm equipment. We have seen the benefits of the tracker system subsidised by the DOJ, and this is an attempt to see what more can be done in that area. We continue to work with DARD and representatives of the rural business community to ensure that we keep abreast of technologies that may assist in tackling livestock crime. <BR /> <BR />Ms McGahan talked a lot about the specific area of rural crime and referred to the rural crime unit being stood down. It is certainly the case that the data analyst was employed for only a short term, but my understanding is that the PSNI's statistics branch has now mainstreamed that work.”
“The PSNI has established a text alert system and a dedicated email address to facilitate the two-way flow of information with representatives of the business community. The PSNI has also reviewed its 'Business Crime Good Practice Guide' to ensure consistency of approach to service delivery across the organisation. Police officers are rolling out a PSNI business crime reduction risk self-assessment to assist businesses in determining what preventative measures they should consider to deter crime. <BR /> <BR />Initiatives specific to the rural business community have also been taken. Assets recovery community scheme funding has been provided to the Newry, Mourne and Down PCSP to pilot a freeze-branding initiative for cattle. Funding has been provided to the Mid Ulster PCSP to develop a rural crime DVD.”
“I want to cover some of the work that has recently been taken forward to highlight some of those points. Work that has been taken forward by the Department, the police and our other delivery partners in the current financial year includes a number of issues relating to retail crime. The DOJ has assisted with the production and distribution of a retail crime reduction guide outlining a range of crime prevention advice for retailers. My Department supported the delivery of the Retailers Against Crime conference, attended by over 150 delegates, which aimed to reduce the opportunity for criminal activity through front-line education. The DOJ supported the roll-out of the PSNI Safe Shops scheme, which provides practical training for staff in retail outlets to prevent shoplifting.”
“As members of the Justice Committee will know, I report each year on the work that has been taken forward to deliver on the actions in the business and rural crime action plan and the other strands of the community safety strategy. The next scheduled update is in March next year.”
“At a strategic level, that involves working with representatives from the business community and from law enforcement bodies through a range of delivery groups, including the cybercrime industry group, the intellectual property crime group, the armed robbery group and the retail and rural crime groups. I should emphasise that all those groups, which are perhaps unfortunately named, are anti those crimes rather than being groups that bring criminals together. <BR /> <BR />At a local level, the PCSPs engage with communities in different parts of Northern Ireland to address their issues of concern to ensure that, when appropriate, business crime, alongside others, is taken into account as they shape local action plans for the PCSPs.”
“I have tried to deal with some of the key points, and I have no doubt that ongoing engagement will cover all of them. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that business crime has a variety of guises. There was a lot of concentration of cybercrime, but there is also fraud, money laundering, counterfeit currency, intellectual property crime, armed robbery, cash-in-transit attacks, shoplifting, theft and criminal damage, all of which deserve to be mentioned. They cannot be tackled by business alone or by the criminal justice system working in isolation. The community safety strategy, which my Department leads on, recognises this simple fact: partnership working is essential if we are to reach sustainable solutions and to develop them to benefit our community.”
“I also note — this might be taken on board by other Committees if any are represented in the Chamber at the moment — the virtue of not necessarily doing a full inquiry but having a relatively short-term engagement, which has seen significant results in highlighting a key issue. If people read Hansard, they will learn about the benefits of this. I read with interest the report of the Committee's stakeholder engagement event, and, as members will know, I responded to the Chair about some of the proposed actions for the Chief Constable and me. I understand that the Chief Constable has also replied to the Committee. <BR /> <BR />The motion covers a number of areas, and the Committee has carefully split up its responsibilities to make it much more difficult for the Minister to respond.”
“I noticed that, in opening the debate, the Chair said that the Committee had tried to be constructive recently. It is a pity that he is not in the Chamber at the moment, because I was going to give the Committee a slight compliment. No doubt there will be some, including somebody who has just arrived on the Committee, who will report that to the Chair. The Committee has been extremely constructive in its work. There has been a strong mood of partnership with the Department, but the Committee has not been frightened to look into a number of areas. I welcome the time, effort and resources that the Committee has devoted to the issue through the stakeholder event that it held before the summer holidays, through ongoing Committee discussions and through discussions with my officials.”
“Just as I had to be slightly cautious talking about healthcare in prisons and speaking for the Minister of Health, I am not sure that the First Minister or deputy First Minister will appreciate me speaking for them, but the DOJ will play its part in the development of any of those strategies, which are a responsibility across the Executive, even if they are led by another Department. It is absolutely vital that we show a united voice and stand up against those thugs and terrorists, whatever their claimed motivation, who threaten people in this society, wherever they come from and whatever their background. Only with a united view from the Chamber, backed up by a united view at the Executive and strategies in place that ensure that all the relevant agencies work together, will we actually succeed in dealing with those problems.”
“Anything that the Department of Justice can do, as I have just said to Ms Ruane, it will do to play its part in dealing with hate crime, ensuring that we provide support services for those who will come shortly as refugees and ensuring that we play our part in helping create a mood within the public that recognises the position of those who have been citizens here for many years, whatever their skin colour or religious belief may be.”
“This is one of those occasions when you would just like to say yes, but I should go a little further. We have both the issue, as was highlighted, of those who have been here for a number of years but are still subjected to a variety of hate crimes and the issue of the Syrian refugees whom we expect to be in Northern Ireland before Christmas. I have no doubt that there is a relatively limited role for my Department, but, where there is a role for the justice agencies, they will play their part.”
“There are a number of streams of work being carried through, but it is clearly an issue where, most of all, we need a united community response against such crimes.”
“Like, I suspect, all Members of the House, I immediately join Ms Ruane in condemnation of the attack in Ballykeel last night and, indeed, a number of other attacks that have happened in recent weeks, mostly in Belfast. Whatever the crude motivation may be, there can be no excuse for what went on last night. We need to not intrude on operational issues for the Chief Constable or the Director of Public Prosecutions. We have the ability for enhanced sentences relating to hate crime. There is a lot of work being done around the role of hate crime advocates. The hate incidents practical action scheme deals with providing protective benefits. The community safety strategy has elements about reducing the harm from hate crime, whether it be racial, religious or whatever.”
“So, there are clearly areas where the police, if they had certainty of funding, would be in a better position to spend their funding for a period of years than they are when given small sums in-year. The challenge facing the Executive, as a whole, is to get a coherent budgeting pattern through the next CSR period so that agencies know where they are. <BR /> <BR />I suspect that the Police Service is not the only service that is in a very similar position. It does not have the capacity to suddenly squirrel away money into one or two short-term things at the end of the financial year, because so much of its budget is tied up with staffing matters. That is a challenge that we now face to try to get matters resolved, which, I trust, we will be in a position to do after the Chancellor's autumn statement.”
“I can certainly give the House the assurance that I will do my best to see that any money not required by any part of the justice system is recycled to other parts of the justice system that are under pressure, whether for legal aid, prisons or courts, all of which have pressures at present. <BR /> <BR />In many cases, when funding is allocated mid-year, it is very difficult for spending areas to make full use of it if they are expecting a cut the following year. Unfortunately, that is what happened to the funding allocated in-year to the police last year. If they had certainty of funding for a four- or five-year period, they would be recruiting more officers than they are currently able to recruit. Police numbers stand below the recommendation in the review carried out two years ago.”
“We will see exactly how that resolves itself, particularly in the context of the current withdrawal from work by some solicitors and barristers and the potential for further pressures there if, following the judicial review, they are back to work. If that has given a flavour, without giving away Executive secrets, I hope it has been helpful.”
“That is certainly not as easy as the Access NI question. <BR /> <BR />Just before I came into the Chamber, I saw a paper, which will deal with an exceptional November monitoring round and is due to go to the Executive later this afternoon. On the basis that it is for the Executive, in confidence, I cannot give Members as full an update as I would wish. However, I can say that it is clear that there are very significant ongoing pressures in the Department of Justice. There has been some slight benefit this year, because police overtime has been slightly less than might have been the case in other circumstances — a further benefit of a relatively peaceful summer, which we should all be grateful for on more than just financial grounds. As Members will be aware, there are still very significant ongoing pressures around legal aid.”
“That is why, for example, the reduction in the numbers on sick leave on a daily basis has been so important in ensuring that we can make those changes happen and disrupt the regime for that 90% as little as possible. <BR /> <BR />As for the other issues, as I say, I do not think that it will be possible to do all that we hope to do without a significant injection of capital funding. This is one of those points on which, if the Finance Minister were in the House, I would remind him that there is sometimes more capital funding available than resource funding, and that capital investment in our prisons could significantly save on ongoing resource expenditure. So, if anybody here would like to report that to the Finance Minister, I would be very grateful.”
“We cannot do all that we would wish to do around the concept of three mini prisons without a fairly significant capital investment. For example, different arrangements for visitors cannot be accommodated in the concept of three mini prisons within the current capital configuration. However, Mr McCartney highlights a reasonable point about how we actually manage the arrangements for prisoners in the two separated houses, the other category A prisoners, and the great run of the prison population — the 90%-plus — who are not in those circumstances. It is about seeking to manage staffing as best as possible to ensure that the staffing pressures that exist in Roe and Bush do not impact on staffing elsewhere.”
“I have no doubt that the very positive relationship between him and the director general, the other members of the senior team, his senior team in Maghaberry and even, dare I say, the Minister and the senior team in the Department is having good effects already in Maghaberry. I have no doubt that that will continue.”
“However, since the arrival of Phil Wragg, the current governor, I have seen extremely good work being done, close cooperation with Prison Service headquarters and with the Department, and an understanding of the challenges that Maghaberry faces. Remember, Phil Wragg's previous experience was as governor of Belmarsh. Belmarsh may not be as complex as Maghaberry, but it does deal with some of the most difficult prisoners in custody in England and Wales. He clearly has a range of experience there as well as his experience in other mainstream, if you want to put it that way, prisons, which is being put to good use.”
“It looks as if I have lost the topicality argument, Principal Deputy Speaker, but I take the significant and serious substantive point that Mr McCartney raises. It is an issue that he has raised previously. It is an ongoing challenge to ensure that the prison is run by the governor and his senior team, but that involves cooperation with other staff and with the associations that represent them. It involves not only discipline staff but those who are involved as instructors, the ancillary staff, the education staff and the healthcare staff. There is a huge mix of responsibilities. <BR /> <BR />I am always slightly reticent when I am asked to give guarantees in the Chamber for matters that are not my direct, day-to-day responsibility.”
“Ms McLaughlin has highlighted a significant point. I do not agree that we need a review of the arrangements. However, I agree that we need to see the recommendations made by Dame Anne Owers and her team, which are being worked through by the South Eastern Trust and checked over by RQIA, being carried through in full and that the ongoing partnership working needs to be reinforced to ensure that the lines of communication between the prison staff side and the healthcare staff side are fully dealt with. Those are the kinds of points that come back, but, frankly, I do not think that it is a matter of another review. I think that it is a matter of ensuring that the recommendations that we already have are put into place.”
“Those reports include where there is engagement on health matters, which are adjudicated on by RQIA, just the same as CJINI deals with the matters that are purely for the justice system.”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I did wonder how many topical questions we would have on Maghaberry, given that I made a statement on it last week and that I have just answered three questions on it from the main list. <BR /> <BR />Ms McLaughlin highlights quite adequately the references to healthcare in the report of the inspection of Maghaberry, and that issue is being addressed by the South Eastern Trust. Therefore, I should leave that to the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to discuss in detail other than to say that the Prison Service is certainly seeking to work in partnership with the trust and that the prison review oversight group, which I chair, gets regular reports as we look at the recommendations of the prison review team.”
“I will be making a statement after the Justice Committee has had the opportunity to consider the proposals for court closures. I am not discussing the court in Magherafelt or any other court at this stage. The issue is that access to justice is not access to an inadequate building in every district town. Among other parts of access to justice, it is access to a proper, decent and modern courtroom, which is a place where there is, for example, the ability to provide segregation for vulnerable witnesses and victims and where arrangements are such that there is proper IT, decent disability access and a whole range of matters that, frankly, some of our older courthouses do not currently meet.”
“That work has shown that it is possible to manage things in a way that is more constructive for those who are involved than an adversarial system where two lawyers fight it out and the participants see themselves more as spectators. If they are participants, they are much more likely to feel that they had a real part to play. They are much more likely to accept the decision of a mediator than is sometimes the case when a decision is handed down by a judge, to which, they have felt, they have not really contributed.”
“No, I cannot agree with Ms McGahan when she puts it as baldly as that. I have made it clear that there are some areas in which traditional legal aid will continue to be provided. However, at a time of decreasing budgets and very significant financial pressure on the Justice Department, as indeed there is on the Executive as a whole, it is simply not possible to maintain traditional legal aid for all those areas that have had it. I have just highlighted some of the issues around money damages and ongoing family disputes, and we have seen examples from the legal profession, where good work has been done by various forms of alternative dispute resolution.”
“We will ensure that we maintain the basic level of legal aid for a decent, civilised society.”
“It is not so much a preferred alternative to legal aid but a way in which we find that access to justice is provided by a variety of methods. Existing arrangements for legal aid will have to continue in some areas, but mediation, various forms of alternative dispute resolution, and finding different ways in which, frankly, those who are fighting over money or property of some kind fund it themselves out of the proceeds of that, are all issues that are entirely relevant so that we can concentrate the payment of traditional legal aid where it is most needed and where it has most effect. As I said in response to Mr Dallat, and to spell out what I said in my previous comment on the report, there is no question of removing those private family law cases entirely from scope as has been done in England and Wales.”
“We will see what the responses to the consultation document are; no doubt the joyful Mr Dallat and his colleagues will be among those who will respond.”
“The allegation that is frequently made — indeed, there are several Members in the House at the moment who have made the allegation — is that legal aid is used as a weapon by the legally aided ex-partner against the partner who is on a modest income that disbars them from legal aid. <BR /> <BR />Those are the kinds of issues that need to be looked at, not cutting out legal aid from the basic key hearings that may deal with a divorce or a separation or issues such as the custody of children. It is about stopping the idea that people who would not take a case to court if they were funding it themselves would have immediate recourse to legal aid to mount a continuing series of challenges. I believe that that is an entirely appropriate way to change.”
“I will keep my counsel until I shortly attend an Executive meeting as to whether I agree with Mr Dallat that it is a day of glad tidings or whatever. Indeed, some of his party colleagues may have a different view from the way in which he has just expressed it. <BR /> <BR />On the specific issue of family cases, one of the major challenges that have confronted the system for some time and that I get frequent correspondence about is the availability of legal aid for one partner in a family dispute but not the other.”
“I am happy to agree with Mr Ó hOisín on that one. The report made the point — I also made it in accepting the report — that we are not looking to reduce legal aid to the bare minimum; we are looking to provide it in a measure that is affordable but meets the needs of this society. That is why, for example, the point that I highlighted about money damages is about finding alternative ways of funding. It is why matters like mediation as opposed to an adversarial court hearing are being looked at as ways of ensuring that justice is provided, but that is not the same thing as continuing to maintain the current legal aid arrangements in all cases.”