David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“We got it up to £93 million annual average cost in Stormont Castle, and that is money coming directly from other services — directly from services that are provided to protect vulnerable people and people in need: health and social care, classically so; housing; job skills and employment work; I might even add in the issue of justice. Those who require those services are all seeing a reduction in those budgets because money is being put into propping up the social security budget. <BR /> <BR />It is not just a matter of health, although Mr Beggs correctly highlighted the fact that health is the largest of those issues.”
“Yes; Mr Wilson makes an entirely valid point. We dealt with those issues in detail in Stormont Castle and, working with the Governments, we got them into the Stormont House Agreement, yet we are left in the position where it is unclear as to exactly why some people who made that deal have reneged on it. <BR /> <BR />We also have to recognise that, when we reached the agreement in Stormont Castle, all of that had a cost to other public services — a very significant cost. If I remember correctly, we started off talking about something in the region of £40 million amelioration coming from other aspects of our budget.”
“However, we did make those mitigations and we did make those changes before Christmastime in Stormont Castle amongst the five parties, and then we incorporated them into the Stormont House Agreement, and that recognised the practical limitations of what we can do. We cannot do all that we wish to do. We have to live within the administrative possibilities and we have to live within the financial realities, and we had a very detailed examination of those. Civil servants from DSD and the Social Security Agency put a lot of effort in then, and have since, to put the detail on that, for which we should be grateful, but we need to recognise that that is the reality and that that is what five parties signed up to — to live within the reality, to make the ameliorations and to accept that that was the best that we could do —”
“It is fine to talk about issues like the Human Rights Act, where I have no doubt that, because of its particular implications for the Good Friday Agreement, many in the House will seek to oppose any potential changes that the Tories may introduce, but this is not the Human Rights Act. This is the fundamentals of living within our means, dealing with the budget that we are given and making such modifications as we can. We may work with Scotland and Wales on many issues — indeed, in my ministerial role, I work with the Scottish Cabinet Secretary on many issues — but we cannot on the issue of social security, which is fundamentally an issue for the UK, not at all devolved in Scotland in Wales and only nominally devolved here.”
“I entirely accept the Member's point, which I will go on to in a minute. That is where I believe that the nationalist rhetoric about welfare in this place is simply not correct. We have, as Mr Beggs has just reminded the House again, extremely limited powers to make any adjustments around the margins. We are not an unbridled power or a sovereign state, and we need to recognise the reality of where we are.”
“I notice that even the Ulster Unionist Party seems to have realised that casting off the Tories was probably a good thing electorally, but the reality is that, whether we like it or not, whether we approve of the electoral system or not and whether we think that it is fair or not, the Conservatives have a mandate as the Government of the United Kingdom. All parties that accepted the Good Friday Agreement and the principle of consent need to live with that. In the context of a UK Government, the Conservatives have the power to decide things, and we have distinctly limited powers as a devolved region.”
“The reality is that welfare powers are not devolved in any genuine sense. Right from the post-war settlement — in fact, possibly even from Lloyd George's old-age pensions, but my memory does not go back that far — we have had the reality that, on the basis that people in Northern Ireland pay UK taxes, they get UK social security benefits. The expenditure under annually managed expenditure (AME) is adjusted to deal with that without regard to the block grant. That is the position that we are in, and that is where we now stand with these measures, which have been passed by the UK Parliament. Our powers to make any change are extremely limited. <BR /> <BR />It is fine for some Members to say, as Mr McGuinness did, that the Conservatives have a minuscule mandate in Northern Ireland, which is, of course, true.”
“I will commence, Mr Speaker, as you did, by extending good wishes on behalf of my party colleagues to Peter Robinson. We trust that we will see the First Minister back in his place and fulfilling his duties at an early stage. <BR /> <BR />For the record, I should stress that I am speaking from the Back Bench, though I have no doubt that the Minister for Social Development will appreciate the support of at least one Minister in the House today. When I say that I "support" the Bill, it is in the context that Alliance is firmly in opposition to many of the welfare reforms and opposed them in the only place that mattered: the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster. That was where those decisions were taken, not here. <BR /> <BR />There is much talk about welfare powers being devolved to these institutions.”
“I certainly appreciate Mr Rogers's point. As I said in an earlier answer, ministerial engagement will be at a key level with the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Minister of Education, because I entirely recognise that, frankly, many of those who end up in custody in particular, never mind those who end up in contact with the youth justice system in the community, would be seen by some to have been failed by the education system. Very few who are currently in Woodlands had previously been attending school. That is a key issue, where non-engagement with school is part of a pattern of behaviour that frequently also leads to offending. I have no doubt that the role of the education representative on the steering group will be crucial as we start to look at some of those points.”
“<BR /> <BR />As for the Glasgow model and the issue of school exclusion, I suspect that that is rather more the responsibility of DE than of DOJ, but I am very happy that we continue to discuss its application to young people who are involved in or on the fringes of the justice system to ensure that we make the best possible arrangements to help young people to stay out of criminal activity.”
“First of all, I thank Mr Agnew for now making it six out of six. It is always good to know that we can actually manage a consensus about some of these difficult issues in the justice system from different sides of the House. The specific issue around education in Woodlands is something that I have been in contact with the Department of Education on. My officials in the Youth Justice Agency have been in contact as well, and I will be having further discussions in the near future with the Minister of Education as to that.”
“We are only five years old. We have not been able to do everything that the Department of Justice would have wished to do in five years, but give us another five.”
“Ach well there always has to be a sting in the tail, Mr Speaker. It is certainly the case that as we look at, frankly, I suspect, every part of our system of government but certainly across the justice system, there are elements of inefficiency and duplication. To suggest that that could all have been achieved much earlier is, I suspect, not practical reality. We needed the youth justice review to set the overarching framework for the changes that we are making. We need to ensure that the different agencies of the justice system, which retain their independence, also recognise their interdependence to ensure that we cut out the duplication. I am certainly heartened by the conversations that I have with leading members of the relevant aspects of the justice system to ensure that that will be the case in the future.”
“<BR /> <BR />In terms of engagement with stakeholders, the stakeholders across the justice system will be fully part of the steering group. The various subgroups will engage with relevant NGO stakeholders as well. We have a good relationship. I already mentioned to Mr Maginness the role of the Commissioner for Children and Young People. We will certainly continue to work with stakeholders, but it is now a matter of the Department putting into practice the fine detail and fine tuning of what has already been done by the youth justice review. We will continue to engage with others, though the responsibility will effectively lie with my officials, to ensure that proposals are put that can be carried through, either administratively in the Department or in future legislation in the Assembly.”
“I thank my colleague for her welcome. I think that makes five out of five, which is not always the case with justice statements. <BR /> <BR />On the specific issue, I am happy to confirm that the only place where under-18s can be held in custody is now Woodlands, not Hydebank. That is the practical reality. Some of our NGO stakeholders said that they accept that because they accept the current arrangements in the Department, but they want to ensure that it is underpinned in legislation for fear that a future Minister might reverse that policy. I will ensure that legislation progresses — but it will not be reached before the next mandate — to ensure that that is put in place, and, in the meantime, administratively, that will be the position.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that punishment is part of it, but we need to ensure that we do not elevate punishment to the point where it is seen as the sole purpose of the justice system, if it is ineffective in reducing future offending. What I am keen to do is see that we build on the youth justice review and find the most effective way of dealing with young people on the verge of offending, and those who have offended, to ensure that we cut the cycle of reoffending at the earliest possible point.”
“There is clearly a need to ensure that deterrence is a key factor in the way the system works. We need to be very careful when we talk about punishment in the context of those who are particularly young. The reality is, even with the current low age of criminal responsibility in Northern Ireland, that the very small number of young people who become involved in that at the lower ages are treated largely through care means, rather than through criminal sanctions means. We need to ensure that we deal effectively in a way that reduces future offending. There is no doubt that custody remains an option, and that other aspects of reparative justice are not easy to deal with. They will be seen as significant sanctions by those who have to carry them through.”
“That is what I want to see: that we carry forward the good work of the review; look at the wider issues that have emerged, such as PACE remands; and ensure that we use the opportunity to reduce the number of young people in custody ever further. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that we have a specific issue of young people on remand; sometimes a greater number of remands at weekends because it appears that Woodlands provides a suitable facility that makes it easy for people to refer there. We need to ensure that we use the facilities that we have, whether custodial or in the community, to the best possible effect. That is what I want to see the review doing, and to put in place, as soon as possible, whatever can be done, whether that be administratively in the next few months or legislatively in the next mandate.”
“I appreciate Mr Maginness's positive words for the statement. Just to repeat the point: the commissioner felt that she had an appropriate role to play slightly at arm's length from the review, but I have no doubt that she will provide a very valuable challenge function, and I am very grateful to her for offering to carry that through. <BR /> <BR />The expectation is that I will be back before the end of the mandate to give a statement on the detail of the conclusions. Mr Maginness is, perhaps, being marginally unfair by saying that everything was prefigured in the youth justice review. There are a lot of details that need to be worked out, which now falls to the Department to do rather than asking the external review.”
“I think that this is a matter of the Department at official level putting into practice some of that work in consultation with other Departments and the other justice agencies and by involvement through the subgroups in the relevant NGO partners, with which we have already had some informal discussions. We have the opportunity to show that this is following through on the youth justice review by putting the detail on the way the Department and its agencies will operate in future. I have no doubt that the Committee will continue to play a part in keeping the Department on its toes in that respect, and I also have no doubt that the Committee's meeting this week will be very productive on that.”
“Mr Speaker, in response to your first point, I am, of course, always happy to ingratiate myself as fully as possible with the Chair and Deputy Chair of the Committee. I will do my best to keep on their right side. I welcome that the Deputy Chair also welcomed the statement. <BR /> <BR />In terms of whether this is a review of a review, we are now looking at a continuation of the youth justice review's work, which set some high-level work but left a number of recommendations to be worked through in detail, in particular when the issue arose of stopping the use of Hydebank Wood for the under-18s. It opened up wider issues, which we need to look at. For example, youth custody under the PACE and alternative accommodation are all key issues that mean that we need to take a wider look.”
“I have no doubt that that will continue to feature in the work of the Youth Justice Agency.”
“I believe that we will see that. <BR /> <BR />In answer to his final question about meeting the needs of victims, the good work that is being done to implement the charter and our European obligations and that we hope to see coming to fruition if the Justice Bill proceeds through its final stages before the summer recess will clearly have ramifications in youth justice, as well as in adult justice. It is, of course, also the case that a lot of the Youth Justice Agency's work on restorative practice involves engagement between young offenders and their victims. That is the kind of good work that can produce very positive results by making young people aware of the effects of their actions on other people and by giving victims the sense that their voice is being listened to.”
“<BR /> <BR />In terms of early interventions with other Departments, I highlighted yesterday in my response to him that, even in the context of early years interventions, the DOJ believes it has a role to play, although other Departments clearly have a larger role in those early years, rather than in early stage intervention processes. I think that he makes a very valid point about mainstreaming, which is where we need to look at the wider use of central Executive funds, rather than depending purely on existing departmental resources being deployed. Two of the key ministerial level partners in the work that will be done on this process will be my colleagues the Ministers of Education and Health, Social Services and Public Safety. I will write to them later today inviting their officials' involvement at every stage of this work.”
“Actual changes, if they require legislative change, are unlikely before the next mandate, but I had given a commitment to report by the end of this mandate. Certainly, I am keen that what can be done without the requirement for legislation will be implemented as soon as possible. Indeed, we have already seen that in our work on statutory time limits, for example, by looking at what can be done administratively in advance of formal legislation. I entirely share the view that Mr Ross expressed that we need to ensure that work is done to get the best possible innovations in place as soon as possible by whatever means that can be done.”
“I congratulate my Committee Chair for what I think was about four questions when he described it as two. I thank him for his welcome for the statement, and I restate my commitment to continue to work as best we can with the Committee. I believe that we have worked well between the Department and the Committee over five years.”
“I will commission those involved in the youth justice system to come together to develop proposals that will look at the system from end to end to reduce the number of children entering the formal justice system through appropriate use of prevention, diversion and pre-court engagement, and to ensure that, for those who do enter the system, the sentencing framework is straightforward, flexible and effective, with only the most serious and persistent offending resulting in custody. It will, I hope, provide the platform to set an innovative and exciting agenda for action on youth justice matters, to make a real difference to the lives of children and young people and to create a better system for them, their victims, their communities and for society as a whole.”
“It set out a path for the future of youth justice in Northern Ireland, and we are still on that path. We have implemented its recommendations and have seen changes in the system; changes that have created further opportunities for us to work better together, to think smarter and to intervene earlier. Now is the time to take a radical look at how we can take this review to the next level, and that is what the scoping study is intended to do. <BR /> <BR />I have covered a lot of ground in this statement, so I will summarise briefly what I intend to do.”
“Indeed, as the Lord Chief Justice expressed during a recent discussion with the Justice Committee, rather than using austerity as an excuse to do nothing, it should be used as a catalyst to take a critical look at how we do our business and what we want to achieve. I echo those thoughts completely and I firmly believe that there are savings to be made by reducing duplication and streamlining the system, savings that can be reinvested to support children and their families and to prevent young people in future generations from entering the youth justice system. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the opportunity to set out my Department’s plans for this scoping study. Some people may question the need for yet another youth justice review. Really, it is a continuation of the work begun by the review team.”
“Children and young people will, of course, play a key role in this process. Who better to tell us what works than those who have experienced it first-hand? Once the scoping study is complete, the steering group will provide me with its analysis and recommendations, which I will present to the Assembly by the end of this mandate. <BR /> <BR />Members may already be thinking about the cost of such an exercise and the financing of any future changes to be made to the system. There is no doubt that we face difficult times financially, but this should not be a reason for delaying or preventing change and progress.”
“Given the vital role that other Departments play in the lives of our children and young people, I will also be writing to a number of my ministerial colleagues to invite representation from them at official level. The steering group will provide overall direction and oversight and will coordinate the commissioning of subgroups to research, benchmark and provide evidenced proposals to the main group. <BR /> <BR />I know that we are fortunate in Northern Ireland in having a very strong children’s sector with a wealth of experience, and that will be invaluable in informing the work over the coming months. Each subgroup will liaise with stakeholders across all sectors as they draw together their proposals to ensure that the steering group is fully informed when formulating its conclusions.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that this statement has given Members a good grounding in why we are undertaking this scoping study, what will be covered and what we hope to achieve. In terms of how it will be structured, I have asked the chief executive of the Youth Justice Agency to take the lead. He will chair a steering group comprising senior figures across the criminal justice system, including the Courts and Tribunals Service, the Probation Board and the Police Service. Invitations will be extended to other key stakeholders, such as the Public Prosecution Service and the judiciary. I am very pleased that the Commissioner for Children and Young People has agreed to play a key role in scrutinising the process.”
“It will examine ways in which children who come to the attention of the criminal justice system can be dealt with at the earliest opportunity and the lowest possible level, without having to resort to formal proceedings unless appropriate. It will also reduce any unnecessary use of custody by maximising the community and restorative justice options that are available. My Department will also look at options to address any overuse of the juvenile justice centre at Woodlands for non-sentenced children. <BR /> <BR />In short, we have the opportunity to create a system that is fully compliant with children’s rights and uses custody as a last resort. Where custody is necessary, my Department will use the learning and experience of the focused consultation to feed into that aspect of the work and in designing any new sentencing framework.”
“The focus will be on examining the system to ensure that it is easier for everyone, but in particular for the children and victims involved in it, to understand, so that they are clear about exactly what is expected of them and why. In doing so, we will be looking at how we can ensure that the principles espoused in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child are applied across the system. <BR /> <BR />We are already amending the statutory aims of the youth justice system to ensure that a child’s best interests are fully considered throughout the process. The forthcoming work will allow us to take our compliance with international obligations a stage further.”
“I can point to further examples, such as the roll-out of police discretion and the development of youth engagement clinics, both of which fulfil youth justice review recommendations, which have provided additional options for dealing with children in the system. <BR /> <BR />These changes have shown that Northern Ireland has the vision and the ability to progress and adapt and that our criminal justice organisations can work in partnership to develop and deliver interventions that are timely, proportionate and effective and which meet the individual needs and circumstances of children. Such principles will be central to the forthcoming exercise, and I intend to build on the success and effectiveness of such interventions.”
“<BR /> <BR />Developments such as those are precisely what allow our review to encompass issues around prevention, diversion and pre-court options; specifically, the way the system organises itself to respond to the needs of those children and young people who are on the verge of offending behaviour. <BR /> <BR />My Department is leading on an innovative early intervention project, which has been allocated £450,000 from the EITP over the next three years. That will pilot a project enabling the Youth Justice Agency to deliver meaningful interventions and wrap-around support for children to prevent future offending behaviour.”
“As part of Delivering Social Change, my Department is working with other Executive Departments on the funding, development and delivery of a range of innovative projects through the early intervention transformation programme (EITP). This cross-governmental programme is intended to deliver services and support to children and young people through early years interventions for the very young age groups and early stage interventions for children of any age who need additional support to prevent them from taking a path, perhaps unwittingly, that may adversely affect the rest of their lives.”
“As Members will know, over the past few years, my Department, criminal justice organisations and cross-governmental groups have been taking steps to deliver on the various recommendations in the youth justice review. The progress made, and the changes seen as a result, afford us this opportunity to widen our horizons and create an innovative and progressive youth justice system. For example, the review emphasised the need for the Northern Ireland Executive to focus more clearly on early intervention and to secure funding for investment in this vital area. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that, through the Delivering Social Change framework and its signature programmes, the issue of early intervention is now firmly on the agenda and is being addressed at Executive level.”
“This work will be undertaken with the aim of simplifying the system and ensuring that we can deliver more focused interventions that help to improve outcomes for children and young people across the whole of the justice system, not only those who experience custody. In doing so, we can also create better outcomes for the wider circle of those affected by offending behaviour, including families, victims and communities.”
“<BR /> <BR />Since the decision to pause was taken last November, my officials have been in discussion with key statutory stakeholders across the youth justice system to take soundings as to the nature, scope and structure of this exercise. I now wish to outline to the Assembly the arrangements that I am putting in place for taking it forward. <BR /> <BR />I am commissioning a scoping study to consider whether the legislative, strategic and structural architecture surrounding the youth justice system is adequate to address the many and complex needs of the children who come into contact with it.”
“For that reason, last November, I informed the House that I had made the decision to pause the work and instead to take it forward as part of a wider examination of how we deal with children already in or on the fringes of the criminal justice system. At the heart of this decision is my belief that there is a way to create better outcomes for children, victims and the community. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that many people agree with me. During the public consultation that we undertook around custodial arrangements for children, the conversations that took place, and the formal responses that we received, majored far more on the need for systemic changes and enhanced community provision than on custody. That is significant; hence my decision to look at custodial sentencing in a far wider context.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. With your permission, I wish to make a statement on children and the justice system. <BR /> <BR />When we removed under-18-year-olds from adult custody at Hydebank Wood, in line with the recommendation in the youth justice review, I gave a firm commitment that that would be underpinned by a change in legislation. First and foremost, I want to emphasise that that commitment remains. I also want to stress at this point that no child has been held in Hydebank Wood since November 2012, and nothing I have to say today will change that. <BR /> <BR />There is still a need to introduce legislative provision to underpin that commitment, but I intend to do that in a way that improves and simplifies the current system rather than merely adding to its complexity.”
“The answer is very clear. The director general of the Prison Service is in charge, the governor of Maghaberry is in charge of Maghaberry and individual governors are responsible for their particular areas of responsibility. There is clearly a staffing issue there: for example, there is a very high level of sickness absence in Maghaberry at present. However, it is important to ensure that we do not undermine the good work being done and that we seek to ensure that the reform programme, which has produced some significant benefits in recent months at Hydebank Wood, with the transformation to the college, and at Magilligan also proceeds apace at Maghaberry.”
“I cannot give Mr Cree a precise figure at this stage, though, clearly, work has to go on to establish that. However, do not necessarily believe everything that you read in the Sunday papers. People say, "They suggest £400,000, so assume that you double that."”
“I have no problem with repeating Mr Brady's point. I have always encouraged those who serve or have served in the Police Service or the RUC to give whatever help they can to the ombudsman's office in carrying out its investigations. I note that that point has also been made by a number of retired officers on different occasions. It is clearly the best way of enhancing confidence in policing, alongside the good work that is being done by the ombudsman and the work that has made the PSNI a very different body from the RUC when a number of those difficulties were happening.”
“Clearly, there are public concerns, but we need to be careful in this place when dealing with issues of a number of years ago. I understand that the specific unit in Special Branch that was referred to was wound up some time before the devolution of justice to here. There are issues of significant concern relating to the death of police officers and civilians, and those are matters for investigation by the Police Ombudsman, who has the formal remit to do that. I am not sure that I should say much beyond that while we allow the ombudsman's office to carry out its enquiries.”
“I believe that good work is being done in Maghaberry, but it is an ongoing challenge. The shortage of staff and the number of staff on sick leave make that particularly difficult.”
“We need to take care when we simply quote numbers of staff. The numbers that Mr Anderson gave are slightly larger than the exact numbers of reductions. Specific new blocks, for example, do not require anything like the same number of staff for supervision. The reduction in escorting lower-risk prisoners around Maghaberry has also resulted in a reduction in numbers, but it is clear that there is a difficult management problem in Maghaberry, which is probably the most complex prison in the United Kingdom, given the number of groups of prisoners that are housed there.”
“Clearly, the level of staffing in the Prison Service is less than we would hope for at this stage. A number of vacancies are being covered by overtime, and recruitment issues are being looked at again against the difficult budget settlement, which has seen significant reductions in the Prison Service budget for this year.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also have significant confidence in the work being done by the Probation Board and the Youth Justice Agency, as the key elements of the formal justice system, in comparison with what I see of probation services in England and Wales, where privatisation and financial incentives do not seem to have delivered anything like the quality of service provided by the professionals and professionally qualified social workers who work in probation here. We should be very grateful for that. I have, therefore, sought to protect the budgets to those front-line services, whether statutory or voluntary, as far as possible, but, unfortunately, I cannot protect them entirely.”