David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“That point of principle — I accept that it is a point of principle for him — did nothing to disrupt his good working relationship with the Minister or the Department, even if, at times, he was a bit like a barrister talking about legal aid. However, we will not make mention of anything negative.”
“Some Members, Mr Speaker, praised your Deputy Speaker colleague. I add my thanks to you and all the Deputy Speakers for the work done alongside your staff in ensuring that matters went through cohesively. <BR /> <BR />If there was anything of a mutual love-in, it was as members of the Committee praised each other. I extend my good wishes to the two members who I know will definitely be leaving: Alban Maginness and Bronwyn McGahan. They may not be the only members who are leaving, but they are the only two who know that they are leaving at this point. <BR /> <BR />Given the length of time that he has spent on the Committee, I thank Alban Maginness for his kind words. He referred to not approving of the methodology for the election of the Justice Minister.”
“<BR /> <BR />The only minor point of disagreement, I think, was the suggestion that the Prison Ombudsman was done fairly slowly — it was mentioned in the Hillsborough Castle Agreement of February 2010 — but, when you have a 38-year deficit of legislation to put through, not everything gets done in the first year or two. I am extremely pleased, although I am not sure that the position the Prisoner Ombudsman would have been in over the last few years would have been any different had this legislation gone through. Both Prisoner Ombudsmen whom I worked with as Minister were given their full place and recognition. <BR /> <BR />I think that everybody said that the Bill came to this stage only because of diligence, hard work and the cohesive efforts of a significant number of people.”
“I trust that he will keep my successor fully on his or her toes to ensure that we move on that and expand on the good work already done, particularly among young people. Raymond McCartney highlighted the issue of the Prison Ombudsman, in which he has taken an interest for a number of years. <BR /> <BR />Alban Maginness, backed by Danny Kennedy, suggested that others in this place should take note of the work being done by the Justice Committee and the way it worked together and dealt with difficult issues. That is absolutely right and merited. Stewart Dickson made a point on collaboration on firearms, which was not somewhere where there was easy agreement at an early stage. We should recognise those significant issues.”
“As ever when you get to the Final Stage of a Justice Bill, you have disposed of the major rows, the Committee has done its work, Committee Stage has been extensive and detailed, and Consideration Stage has dealt with difficult issues and tidying-up issues. We are happy that Further Consideration Stage was a matter of only tidying up the paperwork. <BR /> <BR />When we came to today's debate, it was hardly a debate. I am not sure that it was a love-in, as somebody described it, but it was certainly a recognition of good work being done. Notably, one representative of each of the five parties on the Committee spoke almost uniformly in exactly the same place. <BR /> <BR />It was no surprise that Alastair Ross managed to get in his mention of a problem-solving approach at an early stage.”
“There is something particularly pleasant about my last question at Justice Minister's Question Time coming from someone who has been a member of the Committee since the beginning and played a significant part on it. It is good not to be discussing legal aid with him. <BR /> <BR />I take his point about pay rates for new staff in the Prison Service. With retention and recruitment, that has been looked at and will continue to be looked at. I have no doubt that my successor will have decisions to take on that in the next year or so.”
“We should fully acknowledge that a significant problem remains with a small number of those who have not accepted that this society has moved on, and we should ensure that we provide support to those who are leading the fight to ensure that we become a normal society, particularly those who wear police and prison officer uniforms.”
“We should certainly recognise the very significant progress that has been made since that Good Friday. We should also recognise what I believe has been progress made in the Department that was left as "too difficult" in 1998 and only saw devolution in 2010. In my time as Minister, I attended the funeral of David Black, a murdered prison officer; the funeral of Ronan Kerr, a murdered police officer; the funerals of others who have died in the course of duty; and the funerals of two members of an Garda Síochána, who were murdered by terrorists operating on a cross-border basis.”
“However, I can think of the very significant reforms to the prison system that have been under way for some time; the significant achievements that were announced around youth justice following on from the youth justice review in my earlier statement today; and, dare I say it, dealing in a reasonably equitable way with the difficult issue of funding legal aid. All those issues were not exactly easy, but I believe that we have seen significant improvements in those areas. I think that a number of the measures in the previous Justice Act and in the Bill that, I trust, will become an Act in a few minutes, plus Royal Assent time, will also continue to make matters much better for this community.”
“I am sure, Mr Speaker, that it would take me far longer than the two minutes that you would allow to list all the achievements.”
“I appreciate Mr Kennedy's use of the term "very justified campaign" and we can all have sympathy for Mr Worton, but, in fact, he is in no different a position to many other people who were charged and then found not guilty. There is no provision under the law of any part of the United Kingdom for compensation payments in those circumstances, and, as far as I can see, he has exhausted all potential legal remedies to deal with it. Whilst one can, at a human level, have great sympathy for Mr Worton — his case has been well made — I do not believe that any further route can be adopted.”
“I fully appreciate the number of representations that have been made, not least by Mr Kennedy, about Mr Worton and the manner in which he stood trial and was not convicted of a serious offence some years ago. I understand the comparison that is made with others who were wrongfully convicted and received compensation for serving subsequent sentences. It is not an issue that I believe I can address. It has been through all the appeal mechanisms and has been referred through the appropriate ways in which legal cases can be dealt with, and I regret that I do not think that there is anything I can do to assist Mr Worton.”
“That is not just a question relating to new psychoactive substances; that is an issue relating to the way in which prisons deal with drug threats in all circumstances. There is a rigorous programme of drug testing of individuals in prisons, particularly if anybody has been out on home leave, and of searching, as appropriate, visitors and prisoners coming in and leaving. All of that is done to reduce the drug problem, but there is no doubt that there is a widespread drug problem in this society, and prisons are not immune from that. All prisons can do is seek by the use of technology, indicator dogs and searching to ensure that they prevent substances coming in and by ensuring that searching is carried out in a way that deals with them if substances are on the premises.”
“I am afraid that I can answer that one, even though it is actually an operational issue for the police, on the simple basis that the legislation comes into force on 6 April, so I can assure all Members that the PSNI has not made use of it, though I can report, as I have done previously, that the PSNI and environmental health officers have made good use of consumer safety legislation previously.”
“Mr McCrea started off by saying that the decision on whether or not I was Justice Minister was one for the electorate. Actually, it is not; it is one for me. Whether I am an MLA is an issue for the good people of South Antrim; whether I am Justice Minister I have made fairly clear. The rest of his question merited the same kind of answer as I had just given to the first bit.”
“The answer to the latter is "Zero". If people ask me questions about matters that are operational responsibilities for the police or the PPS or are the responsibilities of other Departments, I will not answer them.”
“I will continue to make that case to the Executive, the Northern Ireland Office and, I hope, ultimately through them to the Treasury.”
“I thank Mr Sheehan for that point. I have made it fairly clear on a number of occasions publicly and on every occasion, I think, when I have met the Secretary of State since November last year that the Coroners Service requires a significant increase in resources to carry out its work in a way that would provide a speedy resolution to the number of legacy inquests which are resting. Members will be well aware of the work being done by the Lord Chief Justice to ensure that that work is done as efficiently as possible. Since he assumed the presidency of the court, there has been a lot of engagement around that, but it is absolutely clear that the money for that has to be the money that was offered by the Prime Minister over a year ago, which we have not yet seen forthcoming.”
“Members will be aware that there are a number of issues relating to the Coroners Service that are under way, in particular the fact that a High Court judge has been assigned to hear one of the early inquests. There is a County Court judge as well. It is not just an issue of a senior coroner on the traditional pattern; it is a matter of the significant strengthening of the Coroners Service by the movement in of other, more senior judges to take on the more difficult cases, which, I believe, should give us all confidence.”
“Since I did not enter into an appeasement policy, I do not regret it. There was an honest and genuine attempt to reduce the tensions that existed in Roe House. It was made absolutely clear that progress in making different arrangements for prisoners would be dependent on threats ending, whether they were in the face of officers on the landings or on social media. That has not been the case. There has been no movement in the direction, as has been alleged by some people, of allowing prisoners to run the house. The Prison Service runs Roe House as it runs every other part of Maghaberry prison.”
“I must just address Mr Givan's first point: in no way was I suggesting that an individual officer could not be a fit officer whatever their background is, but the overall numbers are not as representative of the community as we would wish them to be. <BR /> <BR />The threat to prison officers, as to police officers, stands at severe, as it has since the point of devolution. We witnessed on Friday a week ago on the streets of Belfast just how significant that threat is.”
“It is clear, as I indicated earlier, before, I think, Mr Givan was in the Chamber, that, although there had been improvement in the representative nature of those recruited recently, the overall balance of the workforce in prisons is not as good as we would wish it to be. That said, we have to acknowledge the challenges presented by the threat that is still imposed by terrorism outside that make it particularly difficult for some people to apply to join the Prison Service.”
“I mean just the same as we mean in the context of the reforms that we have seen in recent years around the Police Service, for example, to ensure that the workforce in prisons is broadly representative of the community outside.”
“It is certainly an interested idea in the sense that the PRT was put together to produce recommendations, and the issue of how those recommendations were handled was left to the oversight group, with specific involvement from CJINI and the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA). I am not sure how bringing back the reform team or Anne Owers, individually, would be the appropriate way to move forward. She seems to be fairly busy with some duties she has in policing across the water. However, it might be an issue for my successor to think about in another year or two, perhaps.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Milne that not all involved in prisons are seeking to move at the same pace or in the same direction, but, as I said earlier, I think that we have seen significant improvements recently. The fact that we have signed off on 90% of the recommendations of the prison reform programme is a clear indication of the positive work that is being done. Of course, some of it will involve partnership elsewhere around learning and skills and healthcare, and a lot of it will involve the provision of capital funding from the Department of Finance and Personnel, as well as the work that needs to be done within the Prison Service and DOJ. So, there is a considerable amount to be done, but I am confident that we are moving in the right direction.”
“The fourth theme is that a fit-for-purpose prison estate, with 21st-century accommodation, is central to all of our plans. The fifth theme is partnership with healthcare and recognising that strong relationships with healthcare colleagues who are working to a common goal are vital to ensuring that we make progress in the prisons.”
“I am not quite sure that I would describe it as "phase 2", as Mr McCarthy says. In the conclusion of the work of the prison review oversight group, there were five key strategic themes on which the Prison Service will focus to ensure that the reform is embedded. The first theme is leadership; recognising the importance of building a strong and effective leadership, including home-grown leadership, in particular. The second theme is purposeful activity. We have seen progress made around learning and skills, particularly in Hydebank, but much more remains to be done. <BR /> <BR />The third theme is equality and diversity to ensure a better outcome for prisoners and, as we talked about earlier, a workforce that better represents our society.”
“The job over the next ten years and beyond is to embed that change and deliver the end-to-end transformational change envisaged by the prison review team in 2011.”
“On 1 March, I hosted an event to mark the end of the formal prison reform programme. With 90% of the recommendations signed off, we have seen significant progress, and the prison system today, in Northern Ireland, is very different from the one that I inherited on devolution in April 2010. <BR /> <BR />For too long, the challenge of prison reform in Northern Ireland was kept by direct rule Ministers in the "too difficult drawer", with prisons focused on the task of containment rather than rehabilitation. Devolution gave me the opportunity to address the issue head on, and, with the prison review team (PRT) report as the catalyst, we were able to make rehabilitation and transformational change the primary focus of our prison system. However, prison reform is not complete. We have merely come to the end of the first phase.”
“Yes. I appreciate the point, but the serious issue is that, previously, individual substances had to be banned effectively by name or chemical formula. We are now in the position that the ban is absolute. Until a substance is proven not to have a psychoactive effect, it is illegal unless it falls within the small list of specified substances that I highlighted earlier, including nicotine, alcohol and caffeine, which is, perhaps, a lesson to those of us who had an extra cup of coffee at lunchtime.”
“I thank Mr Lynch for the question. The key issue is the funding for the scientific work being done by Queen's. I know that there are a number of cases where PCSPs are working. We had good examples — pioneering work, almost, for the UK as a whole — from Belfast City Council's environmental health department, so there will be a number of different bodies carrying out that kind of work. The key issue is to get a joined-up approach to ensure that people work together. Clearly, when one looks at some of the work being done by PCSPs in action plans on drug problems, one sees that the issue of NPSs features in quite a few of them.”
“I welcome the question and I think, as was highlighted by Mr Dunne, that this is an issue where UK legislation has learned from the Irish experience, which is not always the way in which legislation is made in these islands. It was as a result of good cooperation across a number of agencies, including involvement that the DOJ had in pressing the Home Office to learn the lessons of the Irish. Between ourselves, the Scots and the Home Office, I think that we now have good legislation. Clearly, there is a lot to do to ensure that it is made fully operational, but I believe that it is very beneficial that the Home Office listened to the experience that we highlighted and became aware of the alternative ways of addressing it. A combination of good policy work and good scientific advances will help the fight against these dreadful substances.”
“I am delighted that it was funded by the assets recovery community scheme, and I think it is the kind of good work that is helping to keep Northern Ireland at the forefront against new psychoactive substances (NPSs).”
“Yes, although, in the first instance, the issue is ensuring that anything that might be psychoactive can be dealt with. I cannot guarantee the resources that will be provided to local councils, but I can tell the House about a recent visit that I paid to Queen's University to see work being done between Queen's and Forensic Science. As part of a particular project, it was possible to identify something like 75% of psychoactive substances with a relatively simple laser-imaging test. The precise details of the physics and chemistry are a bit beyond me, but what was clear was that it was saving significantly on the resources, meaning that only one sample in four would need to be subjected to the full resources of Forensic Science. I think that that is an example of positive partnership.”
“As for the impact of the Act on the justice system, the main effect will be on the ability of the police to move more quickly and effectively against head shops and other dealers of psychoactive substances. Following Royal Assent on 28 January, my Department and organisations across the criminal justice system have continued to prepare for the coming into force of the Act on 6 April.”
“The legislation will considerably enhance the enforcement powers available to use against those intent on supplying those harmful substances right across the UK. <BR /> <BR />The Act focuses on possession with intent to supply and does not create an offence of simple possession, except in a custodial institution.”
“With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will take questions 5 and 6 together. <BR /> <BR />The Act is not a replacement for the Misuse of Drugs Act; rather, on top of existing legislation, it adds another means of combating the sale and distribution of so-called legal highs. Those substances, which frequently contain completely new chemical compounds with unknown dangerous properties, can and do cause serious harm, and even death. It is often the case that those experimenting with recreational drugs are misled into thinking that such substances are safe. <BR /> <BR />By making any psychoactive substance automatically illegal — other than a small number of exemptions, such as alcohol, nicotine and caffeine — the new legislation will make it very difficult indeed for the so-called head shops to continue to ply their harmful trade.”
“I thought that I had just made it clear to Mrs Dobson that the Executive have not discussed that. Moreover, the issue has not been passed from one Department to another. The issue is for DFP, and DFP has prepared draft papers that have not yet been discussed by the Executive.”
“As I said, I have corresponded with the Finance Minister, but, fundamentally, the issue is one for the Department of Finance and Personnel, as an issue of Civil Service pay in general. There are staff in the Department of Justice who are affected. Probably by now, there are staff affected in each of the other 11 Departments. Only the Department of Finance and Personnel can set the arrangements. I have responded to the draft Executive paper that the Finance Minister circulated on 19 February, but that paper has not yet been considered by the Executive.”
“Although I have written to and corresponded with the Finance Minister, I have not spoken directly to him or his officials on any particular proposal. I have always been, and remain, fully supportive of a centrally driven and centrally funded solution. It is a matter for the Department of Finance and Personnel, not the Department of Justice, as it affects staff across a number of Departments and other bodies.”
“I do not think that Mr Patterson was in the Chamber earlier when we were debating the Justice (No. 2) Bill when the issue was touched on by a number of Members. <BR /> <BR />It is, of course, right that we as the legislature should send out a message by enhancing sentences, but I need to be very careful about suggesting that I would tell any judge the precise sentence that should be awarded in any particular case.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Dallat that there is an enormous task in dealing with the small number of people who believe that such behaviour is acceptable. The overwhelming public response to the proposals to enhance sentences shows where the vast majority of our people are. I am not sure how much of a role the Department of Justice has to play in educating people except insofar as, through the work being done between the Department Justice and the Department of Agriculture on enhancing sentences, we are sending out a clear message, which I believe will be well publicised by social media, the press and broadcast media.”
“Members will be aware that the Minister cannot do anything to guarantee how sentences will be used. The decision in any individual case will be for a judge, but such a significant increase in the maximum penalty is sending out a clear message from the Assembly, as the legislative body, to those who pronounce sentences of the expectation of a significant increase in those that are given.”
“The Justice (No. 2) Bill, which is before the House, will increase the maximum prison sentence for animal cruelty cases heard in the Crown Court from two years to five years. The maximum sentence in the Magistrates' Court for certain animal cruelty offences will also increase from six months to 12 months, and the maximum fine will increase from £5,000 to £20,000. Increasing the maximum penalties available will act as a significant deterrent, and it sends out a strong message that animal cruelty will not be tolerated in our society. Northern Ireland will have the toughest penalties for animal cruelty of any region of these islands.”
“I do not have that information at this stage, on the basis that we do not know how many retirements and resignations there will be or, indeed, the precise details of how the budget will apply across the services. Active recruitment is proceeding. If I am in a position to give any more information, I will write to Mr Hussey with the full details.”
“I do not think that I can give exact figures at this stage. The last figures I saw were from June 2012, and, at that point, 80% of staff were seen as Protestant and 79% were male. There has been a significant turnaround, but I cannot give the figures for the most recent recruitments. By March 2016, the overall percentage of Protestants was 78%, which is still a very high proportion, although the numbers of recruits have changed that slightly. At that stage, the percentage of males was down to 72% from 79%. So there has been modest progress. The intakes have certainly been significantly more representative, but overall, given the limited numbers that have been recruited, it has not made a huge difference.”
“Yes, I certainly agree that recruitment has to be continued. Members will be aware — at least, they will if they have been following things in the Justice Committee — that a number of vacancies are being addressed by recruitment. Indeed, last Friday, there was a passing out parade from the college that is now Hydebank Wood of another class graduating for the escorting service. There is ongoing work on that, but I accept that there are issues that tie in with things like overtime and the flexibility that that provides, as opposed to the numbers of mainstream staff in post. Those are continuing issues as we deal with the difficult budget situation that NIPS and, indeed, the whole Justice Department have.”
“The groups that have applied through recent recruitment to the Prison Service — for example, to the prisoner escort and custody service and to other opportunities over the last year — have been more representative, but they are not yet fully representative. That work has to continue.”
“I thank Mr Humphrey for his condemnation of the attack on Friday week. I met the family that day and have since had the opportunity to meet the prison officer. I am pleased to say that he is making a reasonable recovery from his injuries. That attack must be condemned, and I welcome the condemnation that I know comes from all parts of the House. <BR /> <BR />One does need to be careful that we do not get away from the basic principle of recruitment on merit. The key issue is to ensure that people from every part of the community are encouraged to apply, and I believe that has been done.”
“Links have been developed with schools in Northern Ireland through careers officers, and information on career opportunities in NIPS has been presented under the Northern Ireland Schools and Colleges Careers Association experience of work programme. Presentations have also been delivered to a number of schools.”