David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“The Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) is committed to ensuring that, as an organisation, it reflects the community it serves. In launching its most recent recruitment campaign, the Prison Service sought to encourage applications from all sections of the community. Information about the vacancies was broadcast on local radio, and the advertisement was widely published in newspapers and journals whose readership gives a representative spread. The Prison Service also asked all councils and a range of community representatives to advise those with whom they have contact of the employment opportunity. <BR /> <BR />A number of outreach measures have been undertaken to encourage applications from members of under-represented sections of the community and to promote a positive image of the Prison Service.”
“There is certainly a point in what Mr Kennedy says. However, there is a difference between the threat posed to prison officers, as to police officers, in their private life and the threat posed to them within prisons, whether it is perceived to be less direct than that on the streets outside. The situation is improving significantly, through, for example, greater supervision of communal areas to ensure suitable protection for prisoners as well as prison staff. However, I can only go on the basis of the report given to me by those who carried out the inspection. Certainly, the contrast between May, when the CJINI team and colleagues left with a palpable "sense of despair", to quote their words, and January, when they left with "a sense of hope", is an indication of good progress.”
“I thank Mr Attwood for his good wishes. I hope not every Member who stands up is going to say that to keep me busy. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, there is an issue: some members of the Prison Service have had difficulties adjusting to a different set of arrangements. That is why we had the voluntary exit scheme, which allowed people who had served in difficult times to leave with dignity; but not all who were eligible left. In my contact with the leadership teams in Maghaberry and at prison headquarters, and from visiting Maghaberry and engaging with individuals, I have seen a change in atmosphere, but it has not changed as far or as fast as we would have hoped. That will be ongoing work for my successor.”
“I am not sure that I quite recognise Mr Ó Muilleoir's interpretation of things. I can confirm the strong recognition that came from CJINI, both in the report and in the subsequent words of Mr Brendan McGuigan at his press conference and when he appeared before the Justice Committee, of the confidence in the leadership team in Maghaberry. Whilst he identified that progress was fragile, he made it clear that he believed significant progress had been made and that he had confidence that it would continue.”
“That plan is being robustly managed, and the Maghaberry senior management team is continuing to focus on the key priorities and recommendations to address the concerns raised and ensure that improvement continues. <BR /> <BR />I do not underestimate the challenges that remain, but having independent verification that progress has been made should give staff, prisoners, their families and the wider community confidence that Maghaberry is moving in the right direction.”
“The report following the reinspection of Maghaberry prison in January recognises the complex and challenging environment for prisoners and staff. I am encouraged that it acknowledges that the prison has been stabilised and that progress has been made across a range of areas, including the improvements made in safety and leadership. I welcome that. However, that progress must be built upon and continue. <BR /> <BR />Significant work has been carried out to improve performance and deliver better outcomes for prisoners. A comprehensive action plan has been put in place to address the shortcomings identified and to ensure that Maghaberry delivers a safe, decent and secure environment for staff, as well as those in custody.”
“I believe that the Bill is an example of putting the vision that I set out earlier into practical action for the benefit of our people. On that basis, I commend the Justice (No. 2) Bill to the House.”
“While it will be for others to judge my performance as Justice Minister — I have no doubt that that will come over the coming weeks — I personally take a great deal of pride in the fact that, over the last five years, the Department of Justice has unarguably delivered substantial reform. <BR /> <BR />I also take a great deal of pride in the fact that, working with Members from all parts of the House, our justice system is in a better and stronger place than it was in April 2010 after 38 years of direct rule. That is particularly pleasant when we consider the difficult matters that are dealt with by the Department of Justice and the way in which we have largely been able to work together constructively. As I have already said, the Committee, as well as other Members of the House, has played its part in that, working with the Department.”
“<BR /> <BR />Finally, the Bill closes a potential lacuna with the direct committal for trial provisions in section 9 of the Justice Act 2015, establishes a fee structure for the Court Funds Office, and last, but by no means least in the eyes of some Members, substantially reforms arrangements for firearms licensing. Taken as individual policy areas or groupings of similar policy intent, I believe that all the provisions in the Bill are noteworthy in their own right. <BR /> <BR />Taken collectively, the Bill will have strategic significance and operational importance across our justice system, delivering a system that is more effective and efficient, fairer and better. This is another important step forward in my programme of justice reform.”
“I certainly agree with my colleague's sentiments. I am not sure that I can agree that it will never happen again, but, certainly, the penalties provided for in this Bill will ensure that those who carry out such acts will face significant penalties, whether significant fines or, potentially, lengthy custodial sentences. <BR /> <BR />Of course, we should not be concerned just about animal welfare. Public protection and safeguarding measures are enhanced by the creation of new offences, such as possession of extreme pornographic images, the new arrangements for lay visitors to all police stations, the Committee's provisions introduced by Mr Ross on revenge pornography, and Mr Frew's amendments on attacks on ambulance workers. I was happy to support the inclusion of these in the Bill and pleased that the House supported them.”
“I am, therefore, very pleased that we have improved animal welfare in the Bill by increasing the maximum penalties for the most serious offences of animal cruelty and by ensuring that Northern Ireland has the toughest penalties of any region in these islands for those reprehensible crimes. It is a good example of very positive cooperation between my Department and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development building on public concern.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill delivers on a long-term goal of mine to place the Prisoner Ombudsman on a statutory footing, enshrining the ombudsman's functions, some of which are carried out on a non-statutory basis at this stage, in legislation and to reinforce further his independence from the Prison Service. There are other prison provisions for a voluntary early removal scheme to allow foreign national prisoners who are already subject to compulsory removal from the United Kingdom to have their sentence reduced to facilitate early removal. <BR /> <BR />Across the community, there is widespread concern about animal welfare, which was shown by the passing of the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011 and has been reinforced since by concerns arising from a number of court cases.”
“As well as providing better options for debtors who cannot pay their fine, the Bill provides tougher sanctions for wilful defaulters when it is clear that they will not pay. Those include, in certain circumstances, the provision to access a debtor's bank accounts directly and to seize vehicles. <BR /> <BR />Those changes will bring about a much improved fine collection process for all concerned, freeing up valuable time in the Police Service and the Prison Service. They will reduce the likelihood of people ending up in prison for short periods and maintain the credibility of the fine itself, which is a core part of court sentencing. In short, the provisions set out in Part 1 will deliver a better and fairer fine collection and enforcement system for all concerned.”
“Although its contribution is unseen by the public at large, it is the glue that holds together the legislative business in this place. The work is unseen, but it certainly should not be unsung. <BR /> <BR />I do not intend to outline in detail all the Bill's provisions, but I remind the House of its main content. At introduction, the Bill had 47 clauses and three schedules. Today, that has risen to 61 clauses and five schedules. First and foremost, the Bill creates a radically reformed approach to the collection and enforcement of financial penalties. It increases options for offenders to manage and pay their fines, and it increases the opportunity for non-custodial community disposals instead of imprisonment when a person does not pay a fine.”
“To that end, I also thank the many officials in my Department who developed the content of the Bill — not all of whom are in the Officials' Box beside you at the moment, Mr Deputy Speaker — those who presented evidence to the Committee and those who worked with Members when it was needed to enhance the amendments that were suggested by Mr Ross and Mr Frew. I also thank the Assembly officials, who played an important part in assisting with the Bill's progress through the various stages in the House. I say a particular word of thanks to the Office of the Legislative Counsel for its exceptional work in drafting such complex legislation for introduction and for its efforts in drafting amendments for Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage.”
“I also thank the Committee's officials for the work that they do with my officials behind the scenes to make Committee Stage run smoothly. I am pleased that there is a positive collaborative working relationship between the Department and the Committee. I am particularly pleased, given the difficult issues that are considered by the Department of Justice. I know that Committee members and officials have a good appreciation of each other's professionalism and desire to bring forward the best law possible.”
“Provision was made for the establishment of a single territorial jurisdiction for courts. A number of improvements were made to the arrangements for the disclosure of criminal record checks. It is in that context of reform and re-engineering that the Bill is before the House today at Final Stage. <BR /> <BR />Before I discuss the content of the Bill, I will take a few moments to record formally my thanks to all those who helped to shape the Bill and assisted in its successful passage to this stage. I place on record my thanks to the Committee for Justice for its detailed work, yet again, on the scrutiny of the Bill. In particular, I thank Alastair Ross and Raymond McCartney — the Chair and Deputy Chair — for their work.”
“The Legal Aid and Coroners' Courts Act 2014 opened a new chapter in the management of legal aid through the creation of the Legal Services Agency. The Justice Act 2015 improved services for victims and witnesses of crime in the form of new victims and witness charters, a legal entitlement to provide a victim personal statement to the court and powers to provide for the sharing of victim information between justice agencies. In addition, public protection and safeguarding arrangements were significantly improved through the introduction of violent offences prevention orders, domestic violence prevention notices and orders, and a new child protection disclosure scheme, which, as I said in response to a point by Paul Frew, became fully operational from today. Furthermore, a number of measures to speed up the justice system were introduced.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Justice (No.2) Bill delivers further progress towards what I stated would be my aims as Justice Minister, which were to reform our criminal justice system into a better one for all concerned; to deliver a fairer, more responsive and accountable process; and to bring forward legislative reform in a structured and focused manner. <BR /> <BR />With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, it may be opportune to remind the House of the justice legislation that I have brought to the Assembly during this mandate and the positive outcomes that that has delivered for the people of Northern Ireland. The Criminal Justice Act 2013 improved sex offender monitoring and notification arrangements and created a new framework for fingerprint and DNA retention.”
“I am pleased to bring the Final Stage of the Bill to the Assembly, as it contains some of the most significant reforms to the justice system not only during my time as Minister but, perhaps, in decades. It does not seem that long ago that I was speaking at Final Stage of the first justice legislation to be taken in this Chamber for almost 40 years. We are now just a week short of five years and five Bills later, or six Bills if we include the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, introduced by Lord Morrow, in which my Department played a substantial role.”
“It is also the case that, when children are already being looked after in a children's home and exhibit difficult behaviour, there is, not unnaturally, given the circumstances of those who also have to look after other children in that home, a tendency to assume that another place of safety is the right place to go to and that will be the juvenile justice centre. That is an issue, and it is being looked at in some detail in the agency, and, if we get a better joining up, including the potential overnight accommodation that I referred to, we will have a better chance of ensuring that looked-after children are not unnecessarily involved in the juvenile custodial facility.”
“I need to be slightly careful that I do not offend on another Minister's responsibilities, but I accept that the point is significant. There is no doubt that there has been a tendency, in some cases, to use Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre as a place of safety inappropriately and perhaps more easily than should be the case. That has tended to fall under two factors, one of which is geography. It is funny how children from Fermanagh can be found an appropriate place of safety, rather than being brought to Bangor, much more easily than children from Belfast or north Down. There is an issue about that aspect of management.”
“We need to ensure that we get greater joining up around healthcare, which has not moved as far in the juvenile justice system as we had hoped it would have in the present custodial setting. There is a lot there, but it largely revolves around the general points, which are around ensuring a joined-up system to meet the needs of the individual young person or child, rather than assuming that silos will deliver education in one place, social care somewhere else and justice issues somewhere else. That has to be the fundamental way in which we continue to make such improvements as we have made over recent years.”
“I thank Mr Maginness for his support on that. How we improve services for the small number of young people who come into custody is crucial because it takes us away from the diversions that Mr Beggs talked about and into the area of how we deal with those who are most difficult. The intention of having the two levels of custodial order will make it clear what the difference is for the most serious and persistent offenders. It then becomes an issue of ensuring that the services that are necessary are provided in a better way, whether that is movement more towards involvement with social care and how it ties in with the significant improvements that we seek to make around education and, indeed, for those who are beyond compulsory school age, tying in with further education is a key part of it.”
“By raising the minimum age and ensuring that we move to an appropriate care method that deals with what is almost certainly, in the case of 10- and 11-year-olds, an underlying family problem, we are much more likely to address it than by treating children who have been left in some sort of state of a dysfunctional family, difficult school relationships or mental health problems purely through criminal sanctions. We are in much more danger that they will continue to offend. Even though, by and large, we do our best to move away from that, the very issue of being involved in the criminal justice system at all makes it more difficult to provide the treatment and care that is actually the priority that they need.”
“I welcome Mr Agnew's support for raising the minimum age. Sadly, we need the support of larger parties than his or mine if we are to make progress on the issue. There is no doubt that the very small number of young people, particularly within the couple of years above the minimum age of 10, who come into contact with the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland — we are talking about something like 20 to 30 young people in any year — are in real danger, because of the way we operate in the justice system, of getting swept into a circumstance that leads them to further difficult and offending behaviour.”
“Certainly, I believe that we have seen significant reductions in that kind of behaviour because young people have been confronted with their actions in a way that ensures that they are then more likely to be responsible citizens in the future.”
“Last week, I actually sat in on a formal clinic in Belfast, where I heard, again, a young person who was confronted with the effect of his actions, and a restorative programme was worked out. <BR /> <BR />Good work is being done, in general terms. If there are specific issues, people need to highlight them to the police and the police need to follow them up in an appropriate way. The important thing in the context of this study is to see the good work that is being done. The issue is to ensure that youth justice workers are put in contact with the individuals who have created the difficulties to ensure that that good restorative practice can be done.”
“I put that in terms of the fact that the decrease was occurring before the devolution of justice; I am not personally claiming all the credit for that. I acknowledge that there are areas which, at times, have problems. The important issue is to see the work that is being done, in particular around youth engagement clinics. Two or three years ago, I had the benefit of talking to some of those who had been involved in some of the clinics in Derry and had been talking about some of the specific issues as to how, in one case, victims or, at least, victims' representatives had engaged with young people who were making their lives a misery and ensured that that stopped.”
“I thought that we would get to the next item of business that I have before I had the opportunity to highlight the child protection issue, but certainly, at this stage, I acknowledge Mr Frew's role in that. I am delighted that the announcement was made. There is no doubt that most Members of the House will have heard Chief Superintendent Clarke speaking on 'Good Morning Ulster' about a significant step forward in child protection that has happened today. <BR /> <BR />The Member talks about numbers of young people running amok. Clearly, there are areas where there are problems and, at times, problems bubble up, but we should acknowledge the fact that antisocial behaviour statistics have actually been going down significantly and consistently in nearly every area of Northern Ireland over the last seven or eight years.”
“I entirely accept Mr Beggs's point about the good work that is done in partnerships at present, which, as he highlights, is mostly around early prevention. I am keen to see that we develop those partnerships and ensure that the best organisations to provide the appropriate services to young people who have, unfortunately, got caught up in the criminal justice system are provided. We need to take the partnerships to a slightly different level from the good work that is being done in many areas in a variety of partnerships that help to reduce the number of young people who come into contact with the justice system.”
“However, clearly it is a formal issue for other Ministers to allow their officials to engage, but I am presuming that that will be accepted given that they have already been participating.”
“I left out a point that I probably should have made to Mr Douglas, who has left, just before I finished my answer to his question. As I said in the statement, I have written to ministerial colleagues. I am assuming that ministerial colleagues who allowed their officials to participate in the work will agree to their continuing to do so as we get the implementation group under way. I hope, therefore, that, whilst some of us may be busy over the next couple of months, walking the streets and knocking doors, officials will find something useful and constructive to do that will enable the process to be carried forward in a significant way and will help speed up the process.”
“However, as the Member highlights, when we look at problem-solving courts, whether through some of the work that those of us who have had the opportunity to travel to the US have seen, the work being done by the district judge in Londonderry Magistrates' Court relating to domestic violence or the work done through youth engagement clinics, we see that it is clear that the concept of problem-solving has to be a significant step forward for a significant part of the justice system, not least for children and young people.”
“I very much appreciate the point that Mr Douglas makes about the necessity for joined-up working. Officials from the Departments that he highlights —Health and Education — and others were involved in the scoping study. There was positive and constructive engagement with some of those from Health, in particular, who were trying to see the way in which we could ensure that services were tailored to the needs of young people and not split across silos in different areas. Members will also be aware of the work going on to transfer responsibility for education in Woodlands to the Department of Education and the Education Authority. We are seeing movement forward.”
“There are issues that will need to be worked through, but I can certainly see us looking at a move towards health and social care, to provide the best way of ensuring that young people are supported and encouraged to address their offending and to make the community safer in that respect.”
“That issue is the topic of the moment. It is clear from the recommendations coming through from the scoping study that we need to move more towards a welfare approach when dealing with children and young people. Once we do, the question then becomes the level of contact between the justice system and the health and social care system. <BR /> <BR />In my statement, I highlighted the significant number of those in the juvenile justice centre who have mental health or addiction issues, and the more we look at that, the more it becomes an issue as to how relationships are made between the other aspects of residential care provided by the health and social care trusts.”
“That is not an excuse to delay indefinitely making progress; it is an excuse to delay from late in this mandate to early in the next, and I trust that we will see real opportunities. <BR /> <BR />As to the relationships between what are currently different parts of the justice system, there are clearly issues affecting community services where we have youth justice responsibility and probation dealing with adults. There are issues relating to the best way in which to manage Woodlands as the juvenile justice centre, alongside some of the other facilities. The relationship between that, Hydebank Wood College and the adult prisons is clearly a complex issue of management to see that we get the best joined-up system. I suspect that he and, perhaps, I will be raising that with the next Minister.”
“I thank Mr McCartney for his role as Deputy Chair of the Committee and for the welcome he has given. I am not sure how immediately any new Minister in the next mandate could take on the issue, given that there is a lot of detailed work to be done by officials, but I hope that the view that he has expressed, which is the same as mine, is taken on board: this is an issue on which we need to move rapidly. <BR /> <BR />Members will be well aware that certain issues that we had hoped to address in this mandate, such as the specific legal bar on children being admitted to Hydebank Wood, were not proceeded with, in order to get a more joined-up package and to ensure that we did things better together.”
“We should, of course, acknowledge that the number who are currently detained in Woodlands — generally around a couple of dozen children — is vastly fewer than a generation ago. That illustrates good work being done in managing that kind of behaviour in the community. Clearly, the balance, particularly on violence issues, will be a difficult one for the Assembly to strike in the future.”
“The Member asked at the end about legislation, and that will certainly need to be provided, not least to deal with the multiplicity of orders that we have and to ensure that that is streamlined in a way that makes it easier to tailor orders to the needs of particular children. The other three points he raised tend to run together. Having two custodial orders ensures that we can deal with more difficult offences, including violent offences, in a different way from non-violent issues. That will clearly have an effect on bail, but the "no reasonable prospects" test is a key issue in how we address bail. If there are concerns about violence, it will not be the same case as many of the issues that currently result in young people going into custody.”
“I thank Mr Ross for the usual cooperative way in which the Committee, and he personally, have responded to the proposals. I think that he and I can agree on the need to move towards a more problem-solving approach and a consensus, as he describes, emerging to keep children out of the criminal justice system. No doubt, the Assembly will debate specifically the minimum age of criminal responsibility at some future stage.”
“Fundamental questions remain about how we react to the worst behaved, most troubled children, who cause the greatest harm in our communities, and about whether the punitive approach that we have traditionally taken is the best way in which to encourage them to change their behaviour. We need to recognise that we have a shared responsibility — not only to the children but to their victims — to get in early to address problematic behaviour before it escalates and to correct a course that, if unchecked, promises only ongoing misery for both the child and the community. <BR /> <BR />What I am proposing is an ambitious programme of change. I hope that my successor can count on support at all levels when he or she returns to the issue in the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />To summarise, the proposals fall under three themes: first, to put welfare at the heart of the system, which includes raising the minimum age of criminal responsibility and placing the youth justice system within a welfare model; secondly, to maximise community involvement and increase exit points from the justice system; and, thirdly, to develop the disposals available to the judiciary and reduce the use of custody to make it truly a measure of last resort. <BR /> <BR />I am very proud of the strides that have been made in youth justice, primarily through the youth justice review, during my tenure as Justice Minister. It is clear, however, that there is more to do.”
“I have written to my Executive colleagues seeking their support to turn the scoping study's ambitious proposals into a concrete programme of action. I intend to establish an implementation group comprising senior officials from all relevant organisations and Departments. They will be tasked with developing detailed recommendations for consideration by the Executive and wider public consultation in the next mandate. The recommendations will be based on the scoping study proposals, which I fully endorse.”
“<BR /> <BR />Regarding the use of custody, the steering group is clear that it is all too easy for children to enter the juvenile justice centre. Its proposals therefore focus on the need to establish alternative accommodation options, especially short-term overnight calm-down spaces. Having those options means that Woodlands no longer needs to be used inappropriately as a place of safety for children. <BR /> <BR />The steering group has also put forward suggestions encompassing bail and remand, including a presumption in favour of bail with no conditions. Significant limitations should also be put on the use of remand, through, for example, the introduction of a real-prospects test. <BR /> <BR />Members will agree that, taken together, the proposals comprise a challenging programme for change.”
“<BR />The third theme covers the disposals available to the judiciary and the use of custody. The main proposal is to rewrite youth justice legislation to make it clearer, easier to understand and, crucially, more effective. Instead of the seven community disposal options that are currently available, there should be a single, tiered, flexible order. Judges will be able to tailor the order to meet the needs of the child in front of them. Likewise, instead of five custodial orders, there should be a maximum of two: a shorter one for less serious offences; and another for more serious, persistent offending. Both orders will explicitly state that children will never be detained in any prison setting.”
“The proposals cover the creation of exit points at all stages in the system, from PSNI action to youth engagement clinics, through to the creation of new disposals and into the courts through to the introduction of a new problem-solving stage. The emphasis should be on individualised, tailored responses that address needs and provide the support needed to prevent future offending behaviour. <BR /> <BR />I want to make it clear that, when I refer to the importance of recognising and responding to the needs of the child, it is not intended to excuse or justify the impact of the child's behaviour on their victim and the wider community. A child should absolutely be held to account for their actions but in a welfare system that meets their multiple and complex needs. All this is ultimately about making our community safer.”
“The steering group therefore proposed that every interaction with a child that brings them into the youth justice system should be challenged to ensure that there is clear justification for them being there and that all other options have been explored and exhausted. That should begin with a presumption against arrest and should follow through the rest of the system with the introduction of advocates and gatekeepers whose task it is to challenge decisions at each stage of the process. <BR /> <BR />In tandem with that, the scoping study points to the need to redesign the youth justice system to increase the number of exit points that allow a young person to access support without a criminal record, where appropriate.”
“The view of the scoping study is that the default position for children who offend should be to provide support to address their needs. As such, the proposals under this theme concentrate on ensuring that formal criminal justice action is taken only when absolutely necessary. Instead, the steering group proposed that opportunities be maximised at local community level to work together to address offending behaviour at an early stage through restorative practices, problem-solving approaches and early engagement. <BR /> <BR />The main tenet is that no child should cross the boundary into a police station unless it is absolutely called for due to the seriousness of their behaviour.”