David Ford
South Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“All I can say is that I remember officials coming back into the Department and saying, "You wouldn't have been very pleased with what Trevor or Stewart said at the Committee yesterday, Minister".”
“<BR /> <BR />When I listened to the start of the debate, I welcomed the comments that Mr McGuigan made, but, as Alex Attwood said so forcibly, even when he intervened and asked what had changed, there was an inability on the part of the Sinn Féin representative to explain anything other than to say that there is an election in six weeks'…”
“<BR /> <BR />No doubt, what we saw from in/out Ministers not so long ago and the failure of the outgoing First Minister to accept her role when she was Minister in DETI to deal with the issue has further added to that.”
“There is an inability in all that we face at the moment to recognise the public disgust at the behaviour of certain people in this place and, most particularly, in the Executive.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In his question to the Minister on that statement, Mr Paul Girvan suggested that some judges spin out cases inappropriately in their own financial interests.”
“Less than the full truth emerged and facts were eventually slowly dragged out from the bunker, sorry, from Stormont Castle. It is a classic example of why people have lost trust in the way that this place operates; it is a classic example of why the ministerial code needs to be enforced at least as rigorously as we enforce procedures agai…”
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“There is no evidence that the reforms will result in fees that equate to the minimum wage.”
“I plan to introduce a new structure that will provide for standard fees in the majority of cases, reduce the level and complexity of the administration of civil legal aid and contribute to reductions in costs. <BR /> <BR />The new arrangements are intended to provide standard fees based on specific case types. They are based on an accepted swings-and-roundabouts approach. They reflect the fact that cases will be put into bandings, and fees will reflect the work required. The proposals are still the subject of discussion with the Bar Council. It is incumbent on me to ensure that the legal aid budget is used effectively and delivers value for money. I have already delivered reform of fees in criminal cases, and I am taking forward reform of civil fees.”
“The Bar operates on a competitive basis, and it is the case that some barristers are not able to attract a caseload that would equate to a full-time job. However, that does not mean that, if they are performing efficiently and effectively, they are working for below the minimum wage for the cases that they are involved in. <BR /> <BR />Criminal fees in Northern Ireland have been benchmarked against fees paid in England and Wales. Even following the latest round of reforms, they will remain competitive in comparison. I have consulted on reform to the fees paid in civil and family courts. My officials are finalising fee proposals for family and children proceedings that will reduce baseline costs by approximately 20% overall.”
“I thank Mr Dallat for his question. I am not sure whether it was entirely referring to education matters when he talked about investment. I have just highlighted the problems with capital investment. An issue has been highlighted about the way in which the Prison Service, prior to my time, adopted a policy of partnership with the South Eastern Trust in health and social care matters. There is an advantage in partnership with local FE providers to ensure that there is a better way for prisoners to undertake courses in prison and then be transferred to external courses when they are discharged in a way that better meets their needs than simply trying to employ teachers in the prison system. That will make very significant differences not just in Magilligan but, most particularly, in Hydebank Wood, where work is being done on transformation.”
“The key problem in addressing Ms Sugden's question relates to capital availability. The outline business case has been submitted and approved, but there are clearly major issues for such a significant capital investment. That will need to be addressed as we look at the budget in the coming period in conjunction with the Finance Department. <BR /> <BR />The rebuild will be done on a phased basis, which will allow work to be carried through on the kind of scheme that does not require an enormous amount of capital at any one time, but we all know about financial difficulties and the problems that arise. It is clear that there is an urgent need to address the living accommodation in particular in Magilligan.”
“Clearly, there is a problem with drugs in this society, and prisons are not immune.”
“I thank Mr Ross for the question, which highlights a key problem. The specific issue of prescription drugs is largely for the Prison Service's partners in the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust to deal with. A lot of work is being done on issues like supervised swallow for the most vulnerable prisoners and the most potent drugs to ensure that those are not misused. Other work is being done, including initiatives with the PSNI to address the potential for smuggling in. There have been a number of successful prosecutions of individuals caught seeking to smuggle contraband into prisons. Work is being done on an intelligence-led basis, as well as the routine work of searching people. Drug dogs are also used when people arrive at the prison. Those are all examples of work that is being taken forward.”
“I thank Mr Ó hOisín for his question, but I do not agree that a substantial section of the report relates to matters going backwards. Certainly, there is one section that is definitely acknowledged to be going back, which is why I referred to the action plan being put in place to deal with those matters, the ongoing work on the potential capital rebuild and, in particular, the short-term work to improve the opportunities for learning and skills training in conjunction with the North West Regional College. Those elements of work, and a lot of work that has already been done, show that the report is being noted and that action is being taken to ensure that the prison improves.”
“It is expected that this will improve learning opportunities for prisoners in Magilligan.”
“I can confirm that a number of recommendations have already been actioned and implemented and that the management team is developing an action plan to address the remaining recommendations, which I will publish in due course. <BR /> <BR />The Prison Service has produced the outline business case for the development of a new prison on the existing site, and this has been accepted, subject to finances being made available. It is important to recognise that the planned rebuild of Magilligan will address a number of criticisms in the report, especially the provision of in-cell sanitation for all prisoners. <BR /> <BR />There are plans in place from April 2015 to outsource the learning and skills function by forming a partnership with North West Regional College.”
“Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, with your permission I will take questions 3 and 7 together. <BR /> <BR />Criminal Justice Inspection (CJI) reports are based on four healthy prison tests: safety, respect, purposeful activity and resettlement. I am pleased that Magilligan prison was assessed positively in three out of the four tests. In the area of resettlement, Magilligan was assessed as providing good outcomes for prisoners. This is the first time that has ever been achieved by the Prison Service, and it must be commended for that. <BR /> <BR />However, the prison was also criticised in a number of areas, specifically the nature of its accommodation and the level of purposeful activity for prisoners.”
“Even in latter years, after he had retired, he would have been out and about for some time at the Antrim show and other public events, wanting to see what was going on in the locality. <BR /> <BR />On behalf of my party, I wish to express sympathy to his sister-in-law Agnes and to the other members of the family circle at Aldergrove and beyond.”
“The only difference was that, three times in a row in the 1970s, my efforts were to reduce the largest majority in the UK by one. That is a measure of the respect and the support that he had in the constituency. He was always a perfect gentleman — he treated others with respect; he had a personal reputation and, whether or not people agreed with him politically, he was Jim — and people saw that in him. <BR /> <BR />He was, in latter years, a constituent of mine, as a councillor and then as an MLA, but I think he will also be remembered locally by how he served his constituents, how he cared for the people of South Antrim and then Lagan Valley, and how he went out of his way to do what he thought best for all of them.”
“It showed something of the reach he had that, as a unionist, even at that stage he appreciated the differences in this society. <BR /> <BR />As Mike Nesbitt mentioned, there is also no doubt, from some of his radio interviews, that his experience as a young RAF man at the liberation of Belsen must have touched him enormously and given him a commitment and drive to public service. He was, as others have said, the leader of his party for 16 years — something that few of us in this Chamber can appreciate exactly how it amounts to — and he certainly had a significant impact over some of the most turbulent years in this region, as he carried through that role of leadership. <BR /> <BR />Arlene Foster said that she remembered campaigning with Jim Molyneaux. I can also remember campaigns in which Jim Molyneaux was involved.”
“It gives me pleasure, though a degree of sadness, to add tributes to Lord Molyneaux on behalf of the Alliance Party, although it is hard to remember to call him Lord because locally he was always Jim. He was an assiduous worker in the constituency, previously as a councillor and then, for many years, as Member of Parliament for South Antrim — the largest constituency in the UK — before he took on Lagan Valley following the reform of boundaries. <BR /> <BR />He certainly had an unusual experience as a leader of unionism, starting off in his early days being educated in St James' Catholic School, where, ironically, he struck up a lifelong friendship with the late councillor Bobby Burns, father of our former colleague, Thomas.”
“In that sense, my purported quotation was inaccurate, and I apologise to you, Dr McDonnell, and the House. I leave it to the House to judge whether it was an accurate paraphrase.”
“Dr McDonnell challenged that on a point of order, and I apologised if it was an inaccurate quotation. I have since reviewed the radio programme in question, and Dr McDonnell actually said:”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will recall that I answered questions for oral answer last Tuesday and, in particular, one question from Mr Agnew on the issue of the abortion consultation. In the course of that answer and in the context of discussing the diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality, I said:”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Dr McDonnell appears to be challenging my recollection of what he said on the radio programme. If I was wrong, I apologise, but I do not believe that I misquoted what I heard on the radio.”
“And human trafficking, which seems to have just been added. <BR /> <BR />Human trafficking is clearly an issue where there is a matter of international reach and national intelligence and reach. We cannot expect the PSNI to fully solve that problem on its own. As we heard on the BBC radio documentary at the weekend, it would have been pretty difficult for the PSNI to have somebody reading the Chinese language press in London to identify that people were being trafficked for the sex trade. There are other issues, namely people from organised gangs forcing others into forced labour, principally from central and eastern Europe. All of those are issues where the National Crime Agency's organisational reach and intelligence will be a major boost to the PSNI.”
“My colleague raises an interesting point. I am not sure that the National Crime Agency will be the key agency for dealing with issues like hate crime, but there is no doubt that some of that comes in alongside those who are engaging in a variety of organised crime and seek to use threats and intimidation — in many cases, principally against those who are perceived to be from minorities — to make life easier to carry out their fairly obnoxious operations. There is no doubt that having the National Crime Agency in place would help to deal with those organised criminals, although the front-line issue of dealing with hate crime will, naturally, fall to the PSNI, but it is with —”
“I thank Mr Ó Muilleoir for his tribute to Anna Lo, although we should not be asking her or others from ethnic minorities to stand up against racist hate crime; we should be asking people from the majority community to stand up against hate crime. The DOJ will continue to do the work, because, for example, the community safety strategy includes elements that relate to hate crime and the wider issues of partnership, particularly through PCSPs, through a variety of other issues and through seeing the agencies working better to tackle the reasons why hate crime appears to rise. All those are issues that need research, partnership working and a single, united voice from this community that hate crime will not be tolerated and that this House and the wider community will show the leadership that it should show against such crimes.”
“That involves partnership working and political leadership from every quarter to ensure that people stand up collectively against those who engage in hate crime of any kind. We should also acknowledge that there was an incident at St Anthony's Church in Willowfield last night, which presumably was not racist hate crime but was sectarian hate crime. That seems to be just another side of the same coin.”
“Mr Ó Muilleoir raises a serious issue that features a number of causes for discussion. As he highlighted, dealing with an attack is an operational matter for the police, and I shall definitely not stray into the Chief Constable's territory there. <BR /> <BR />We see good work being done. For example, the district policing and community safety partnership in south Belfast recently ran an ending hate crime event. Work is being done to train people in a variety of different areas on how we deal with the problem. The DOJ has responsibility for the hate crime multiagency group, and we part-fund the practical action scheme for dealing with the effects of hate crime. However, the important issue is to stop it happening.”
“The important point is to maintain the basic provision of legal aid for the key hearing and then to ensure that there are better ways of mediating to deal with those sorts of issues that, frankly, should not have a court hearing, such as determining whether access is half an hour earlier or later.”
“I answered something of that point to a colleague earlier. The expectation is that the cuts would apply evenly across all bills because there is no other way of doing it. At the same time, we are looking at instituting the wider reforms. I highlighted private family law proceedings where one ex-partner can make life extremely difficult for another by continually going back to court over minor issues of precise times for and duration of access to children, for example. It is certainly the case, as a number of MLAs have put to me, that an ex-partner on legal aid frequently does that against an ex-partner who does not qualify for it. Those are the kinds of issues that we have to address.”
“The expectation is that, as reforms bed in to ensure that the legal aid system is managed more efficiently and effectively, the reduction would reduce over that time.”
“I assure Ms McCorley that is not my intention that that will be the case. Subject, of course, to Executive and Assembly approval, the intention is that emergency legislation will provide for a levy of up to 15% on bills at the point of payment. The maximum levy to be set in any one year on the basis of the difference between the estimated expenditure and the budget allocated for it is allocated on a year-by-year basis with Assembly approval. <BR /> <BR />The DOJ's current intention is to have a sunset clause in the primary legislation at the end of the next Assembly mandate in 2021. I stress that the maximum deduction will be 15%. If the calculated deduction is less than 5%, it would not apply at all.”
“I think that the figures that Mr Allister is quoting from — I have the Stormont Castle agreement in front of me — is the current issue of the costs of funding those elements that will go into the historical inquiries unit. He is quite correct that the current costing estimate for legacy inquests is significantly higher than that for HET cases. Of course, he needs to acknowledge that, when we get into legacy inquests, we tend to involve a large number of lawyers, many of whom will be funded by the state, as opposed to the HET's work, which is largely funded by people on the equivalent of police officer salaries.”
“I am not quite sure what point Mr Allister is trying to make. If he is saying that the funding that is proposed for the HIU is significantly greater than that that goes into the HET, that is entirely correct. Indeed, the Stormont House Agreement did not see the Government provide all the additional funding that was thought necessary, and detailed work is continuing on exactly how that will be managed as we look at the HIU establishment.”
“Ironically, I was at a meeting in Coleraine Town Hall last night with Mr McQuillan's local PCSP. What I see when I visit PCSPs — maybe I visit only the best ones — is that good work is being done in a number of areas and on a variety of topics, such as addressing crime and the fear of crime; antisocial behaviour; diversionary work for young people; providing reassurance to older and vulnerable people; and rural crime, with trailer-marking and trackers. All of that is work that is being done because local partnerships have identified the needs in their immediate area. Although there may be cases of not all PCSPs being as efficient as they might be, there is no doubt that some extremely good work is being done. We are trying to spread the message of that good work to all of them.”
“At the moment, my understanding is that the Policing Board is managing the appointment process for independent members of PCSPs. I believe that councils will largely nominate members to the new PCSPs at the initial AGM, which in most cases is held in March, I believe. The expectation is that independent members, when appointed by the Policing Board, will be in place by June this year.”
“To talk about sharing reports suggests that sometimes they are more formal than some of the verbal reports that I or the director general of the Prison Service receives. The report published last year on the stocktake of the 2010 agreement was a clear example of openness in that respect. Much of the other work that the assessors do is at a rather more informal level than publishing a report.”
“I thank Mr Bradley for the question. I have two slight quibbles. First, I am not sure that the other three assessors would necessarily agree that Peter Bunting is the leader; I think that they regard themselves as four equals. Secondly, it is not their job to inspect specific incidents. There are other arrangements for that, including the role of the Prisoner Ombudsman. However, it is certainly the role of the assessors to make a collective assessment of the situation as it stands in Roe House at different times. I will meet them shortly to discuss their current view of the situation there.”
“NIPS has also established a team to address the recommendations of the recent CJINI inspection report, 'The Safety of Prisoners Held by the Northern Ireland Prison Service', working in partnership with the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust, which has responsibility for providing health care in prisons. That includes an examination of the strategy to manage substance misuse in prisons.”
“Substance misuse is a societal issue and is a significant factor in offending behaviour. For that reason, it is a problem inherited by and concentrated in the whole criminal system, not just prisons. By the time someone enters the criminal justice system, it is very likely that a number of interventions, including those in respect of education and health, will have been unsuccessful. <BR /> <BR />There is a real and concerted effort by the Northern Ireland Prison Service to address substance misuse based around a three-strand approach: restrict supply, reduce demand and assist recovery. In 2013, the Prison Service increased its focus on intelligence-led searching. The increase in drug finds in all three prisons is clear evidence that the approach is targeting the right people and drugs in particular are being detected.”
“Given that the term of office of current members is up in the early summer of this year, this will not impact at all on current members. Those who wish to be appointed to the board when it is reconstituted will be fully aware of the salaries.”
“I accept my responsibility as Minister to look at the rationalisation of remuneration for the Policing Board and potentially for other bodies in line with the prevailing rates for similar bodies in Northern Ireland. If you compared, for example, the responsibilities of the chair of a health and social care trust with those of the chair or members of the Policing Board, you might well find that they are not much less onerous, yet the salary is significantly lower. We need to ensure that we have a rational way of determining appropriate remuneration. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Mr Beggs's general point. With significant cuts being imposed on the DOJ, it is not possible to continue to afford significant payments to those who serve on such boards.”
“I certainly agree with Mr Sheehan on that point, and I do not believe that I have taken or am contemplating taking any such steps. If he is hinting at the potential change in the way in which members of the Policing Board are appointed, I do not believe that, if we were to move to a rolling appointment system — that decision has not yet been taken — it would impinge on the independence and responsibilities of the board, but that is still under discussion in the Department.”
“We need to consider the role that the Policing Board has to perform in overseeing the PSNI and the potential increase flowing from the Stormont House Agreement, meaning that it may well have a wider role in historical work. In addition, the Assembly has now agreed that the National Crime Agency should have a role in the devolved sphere in Northern Ireland, and the board would have a role there. However, I entirely take Mr Spratt's point that no part of the justice system can be exempt from the cuts needed as a result of the Executive's Budget decisions.”
“The Northern Ireland Policing Board is an independent public body. The level of detail sought in outlining all payments to the chair, vice-chair and independent members is not retained by my Department. The Policing Board's website contains a summary of all payments paid to political and independent members over the previous five years, including expenses. The current annual remuneration rates are as follows: chair, £58,606; vice-chair, £43,954; and independent members, £19,437. I propose to reduce those to £48,000, £24,000 and £12,000 in line with payments to members of other public bodies.”
“I certainly agree with Mr McCartney's point. It is easy to bandy statistics or opinions or whatever, but the reality is that the small area in which the consultation recommended changing the law is about dealing with the traumatic and absolutely horrific situations in which a small number of women find themselves every year. If we cannot deal with them with compassion, whatever our preferred outcome, we are not in a very good place as a legislature.”
“At the moment, the answer to whether there is a set number of weeks in which a termination can be performed is no. Termination on the grounds of fatal foetal abnormality is not lawful in Northern Ireland at present. That issue would have to be considered if there were a proposal to change the law as to exactly how it would apply. However, Members need to be aware that, in many cases, the diagnosis, for example, in anencephaly, the condition that is most commonly cited, does not tend to arise until the 20-week scan, so there are issues that would not relate easily to the normal termination time as the law applies in GB.”
“I would be in danger of prejudging the entire outcome of the consultation if I went too far on that. There may, indeed, be difficult cases. Mr Agnew's question was brought about by a comment from Dr McDonnell that "doctors always get it wrong". I do not believe that that is the case.”
“Yes, just as an assessment of a mother's long-term physical or mental health may be subjective and may also be objective, those are exactly the same grounds that would be applied to determine, in the context of fatal foetal abnormality, the clinical judgement.”
“It appears to me, from a preliminary look — I am not trying to prejudge the issue — that those with the most knowledge suggest that it is possible that that can be an accurate diagnosis.”
“I will leave it to Dr McDonnell to justify his stated political position. I can go only on the evidence that I have — for example, from the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the department of foetal medicine at the Royal Victoria Hospital, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the BMA. As I understand it, all those bodies make clear their belief that it is possible to diagnose accurately fatal abnormalities of a foetus of the sort that is proposed in the consultation, which is that two doctors will certify that there is a fatal abnormality that is incompatible with life and that no treatment can be offered after delivery that will make the situation any better. Those are the conditions that were being looked at.”
“With permission, Principal Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 3 and 7 together. Sorry; I was going to, but the Member who planned to ask question 7 has disappeared. <BR /> <BR />A large number of responses to the consultation have been received, including detailed submissions from the relevant medical professional bodies. Although the process of analysing the responses is not yet complete, and I do not want to pre-empt the outcome, it is my understanding at this stage that the main professional medical bodies have not raised any issue about the ability of clinicians to diagnose accurately foetal conditions that are lethal. A full assessment of the responses to the consultation will be reflected in the summary document, which I hope to publish as soon as possible.”
“Mr Elliott does not explain what kind of cases have unacceptable delays. What I have seen across a variety of criminal cases in Crown Courts, Magistrates' Courts and youth courts is a speeding up in recent years. There is not as much progress as we would have hoped at times, but the delays are certainly not getting worse. I do not know many times I need to repeat this: the issue is not the number of buildings; it is the number of court sittings that take place to allow judges to hear cases. There will be no reduction in the number of court sittings, even with the proposals to close a number of courthouses. Therefore, there is no issue of that adding to delay.”
“It is not the kind of thing that we can afford to pay for continuously from the legal aid fund. It must be about getting the decision right and then finding better ways of arbitration or mediation rather than funding continual challenges where one party uses legal aid to damage the other party.”